(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

6 years ago

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87 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (4 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (4 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (4 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (4 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (4 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (4 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#15 6 years ago

Predator hmm... crickets

#33 6 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

The Moderators and site administrator have the final say on anything. If you have a problem, you may make a complaint to them directly and not publicly on the website.
Creating threads or posts that question or reference administrative decisions or potential administrative decisions, such as post removals and thread closures, is not permitted. We are not perfect and if you feel that we have made a mistake, please privately contact a staff member and we will review the situation.
We reserve the right to terminate your account without notice. This would normally not happen unless we feel you are a threat to the well-being of the Pinside community (i.e. spamming or flying off the handle).

We've got a hall monitor here folks. images.jpeg

#42 6 years ago
Quoted from kmoore88:

I wonder if anyone has counted the number of F bombs in that rant. Gotta be a record of some sort.

That has nothing on the Dutch pinball TBL presentation. Just saying

#66 6 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

How many do we think will get out before the end of the year? 20? 25?

Im gonna go out on a limb and guess 10, once they get rolling though it will maybe double per month. If not its all good as long as they keep cranking them out.

#68 6 years ago

Whysnow only you could get a thumbs down for posting yes lol.

#71 6 years ago

Im hoping we see one game at least shipped this month.

#112 6 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

What are you saying? You have undisclosed, known only to you negative information? Because that is what that sounds like you are saying.

That's absolutely what he's saying, his demeanor in this thread is nothing but negative. His intentions do not come across as genuine. The only information he really has to stir things up is speculation. Id rather this thread get closed down too, im not sure why some of these guys have an agenda against Skit-B but it's getting old. All of us buyers are in a holding pattern right now so if any new information comes from Kevin it will be in an email.

#136 6 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

Same thing. I asked for refund 2 weeks ago and nothing.
Maybe we should start another thread with who requested refund and got nothing? Or put "scam" in the title. That seemed to get the other guy refund pretty quick

When you requested a refund did you request it through support or kevin or both?

#138 6 years ago

Did you get a response at all? Or did they just go unanswered?

#142 6 years ago

Im thinking it's gonna take quite a while to get refunds. I know it's not you guys problem but since these are more than likely being made at cost I doubt Skit-B has any extra cash on hand to send refunds, also for every guy that requests a refund a person on the wait list has to be contacted and payment sent before a refund goes out for that spot.

#144 6 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

I understand that will take time and is not instant. But, the answer from support came 2-3days after I asked. And if they say a few days, and not a few weeks or a few months, then is a few days. They know what they are talking about, right? I mean I hope they do. And I think I'm past a few days here.

I don't disagree with you, just throwing it out there what's more than likely going on. Have you signed into paypal and checked? Or did you send a check?

#147 6 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

There is no way that these are being made at cost.

The sum of its parts may not equal $4750 of which Skit-B has only asked for $3000 at this time but you have to factor in all vendors, tooling for certain parts and also paying a crew for assembly and if this is a full time job for Kevin he has to pay his bills. Its a lot less money than you think.

#152 6 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

Again.. if "support@skitbpinball.com" says a few days... I expect to be a few days.
If there is no money for a refund in a few days, someone is hiding something. And trying to lie about it. And I don't want to go there with my assumptions yet.

I don't know who is running support but that's probably a generated response. Id send 20 emails a day till you got your money back. It needs to be more professional and upfront, if its gonna take a couple months to give a refund then tell the customer that and most will give a little slack because they are being transparent.

I dont know if you have yet but when you send emails always include your name, game number, email address and possibly physical address to help speed up the process.

#158 6 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

I'm one of those, if you tell me 5 days, I wont bother you 5 days but I expect to be done in 5. Or if is 5 months, I wont bother you 5 months...
And yes, all my emails included name/prod#/game#.

Oh ok, yeah definitely if they give you a time frame wait till after. Im glad you got your money, what number were you? Also MarcG what number was yours?

Edited: you answered already Marc

#160 6 years ago

So since im #77 I should move to at least #76 now?

#162 6 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

I was prod #56 back in September

Nice well they should b adjusting the production numbers of the people still in since the last bunch that dropped out so I know by you two that dropped out I should at least be #75. I wonder how much its changed in the last two weeks.

#167 6 years ago
Quoted from guyincognito:

Have any of the smaller "boutique" (am I using the correct term here?) shops like Skit-B talked about open sourcing the code for their machines?
Inspired by the concept of the Stern ROM browser/utility that was released by a fellow Pinsider, I've often wondered about the general idea of tinkering with the source code for the game's rules.
There are SO many creative and enthusiastic people in the community that I think you could really expand the fun by "re-programming" the game's rules.
Is there a discussion about "home brew" rules here on Pinside?

Predator is open source

#175 6 years ago
Quoted from Dalbok:

For what it's worth, I was paid in full at the end of last year (initial $250, plus remaining $4500 in one lump sum, all through PayPal). I decided to back out (for personal reasons) back in late Spring. I got an email back (from Kevin) the next day stating that I'd see a refund in a matter of days. There were some additional communications over the course of the next month and a half. Everything remained cordial and I ended up getting my refund (through PayPal), but 42 days later.
I mention all of this, because what Kevin ended up explaining to me was that they had a "special" agreement setup with PayPal in using their services. This allowed them to refund the full amount (even though it was beyond the 60 day PayPal policy). But because of this they had to go through a separate (and seemingly more time consuming process) to refund the money. I ended up receiving two separate refunds from PayPal (one for each transaction, $250 and $4500). The nice thing was that I was refunded the complete amount where as I thought the processing fees would have been lost. In the end, I received my refund and I was happier because I didn't lose the $ for the PayPal processing fees.
Just thought I'd pass along that info to possibly relieve some angst from other seeking to get their refund. It may be taking a little extra time to process the refunds due to the "special" process they have to follow, but the good news is you should get back the full amount regardless of the PayPal 60 day return policy.
I guess that's just an extra step he's taken to look out for his customers (even the ones that back out).

Thanks for the info. Its good to know.

#178 6 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

I'm not trying to offend anyone, but you guys really believe this crock of shit? It's an amateur bullshit excuse. No respectable business operates this way. This whole thing stinks to high heaven.

gal-beverly-gilbert-r-hill-jpg.j... 112 KB

All I know is originally if we requested a refund it was less paypal fees so whether its true or not doesn't matter as long as people are getting all of their money back. Kevin doesn't have to give a full refund back but wanted to use PayPal to give people another option for payment.

1 week later
#227 6 years ago

Ok this is getting tiring, people should not have to come to pinside to get others to email skit-b to send a refund. If skit-b wants to put a deadline on refunds then there needs to be communication and an update. From the get go we have been told we could get a refund at any time, skit-b get your act together and refund badbilly27.

#229 6 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

just hope they don't run out of money....

Well with the lack of communication and customer service there is a good chance of it. A little communication goes a long way. At this point it seems no one is dropping out because of the game they are dropping out because the lack of professionalism on skit-b's part.

#231 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

No need to wildly speculate. Everyone has their own reasons, and lack of communication and professionalism might apply to a few who have backed out, but badbilly stated he backed out for personal reasons.

I didnt wildly speculate, im going by what Ive been seeing. My opinion is Skit-B has been handling refunds and communication terribly.This started as a community project and now its the complete opposite.

1 month later
#575 6 years ago

Are we gonna get an update today? Looks like no predators finished or delivered before 2015 baring a Skit-B miracle.

#581 6 years ago

I'd like an update to show Skit-B is working to improve communication, they are now past the 2 week deadline. If you are gonna tell folks you'll be giving biweekly updates then stick to your word and do it. This is yet another frustrating part of this preorder.

I'm sorry if this comes across as whining but a little communication goes a long way to ease fears and I don't think I'm out of line.

#583 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I agree. I think today is exactly 2 weeks since the last update, correct?
They need to keep up on biweekly communication as promised.
As long as we get something over the weekend I am happy.
Hoping to see assemblies completed, populated pfs, wiring harnesses, etc... soon.

The last update we got was on the 16th that was 17 days ago.

#595 6 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Did SkitB/Kevin actually say that they aren't allowed to mention Predator on their website, or was that just Pinside speculation? I know Kevin has stated they have the license to make the game, but I didn't remember seeing any official explanation for its notable absence from the website.

Not that I'm aware of, I believe it was just an assumption by everyone. He did say the license is fine so that would lead us to believe he is not allowed to market it.

#612 6 years ago

Well a long time ago I was #77, even if I moved up I'm thinking at this rate I'll see my game in quarter 2 of 2016. There have been no assembly pics so that leads me to believe they haven't started assembling games yet. I'm hoping the next update actually has some substance instead of pics we have basically already seen like the first two updates. This has been a long process full of speculation and no fun.

#630 6 years ago

Kevin, ice is offering up free legal advice, you should take him up on it. Thanks iceman for the generosity.

#637 6 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

I have a serious question for someone privy to the private emails.
Does Skit B mention the word Predator in them? They certainly aren't "promoting anything" to current buyers. What a f'd up license.

First rule of Predator club we do not use the word "predator" im risking license and my spot in line for even giving the first rule of the club.

1 week later
#656 6 years ago
Quoted from jeffgoldstein2:

what was the bi-weekly update?

Still no update, late as usual.

#660 6 years ago

I know a couple of you live close to the Skit-B home, is there any progress you'd like to share? Is this project still alive? Considering all we have seen is pictures that we already seen months ago is there any incentive to stay in at this point?

#690 6 years ago

Ill be excited when I see the 80th playfield in an actual game fully assembled and heading to my house.

#699 5 years ago

I had to have moved up from #77, that was the number I had a year ago. Who knows with the flakey way Skit-B does business, Im sure people that weren't in from the beginning managed to get around some of us that have been in from the get go. Who would know though cause the communication sucks.

#705 5 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Isn't it better to have your game ship later anyway, so that if any issues pop up in the early games they can be addressed in yours before it is made?

I would normally say yes but the way I think they will end up taking 4 years to get to 100 maybe longer so my patience has worn thin. I would also hope after the amount of time it has taken that the majority of the bugs should have been addressed. Its kind of like when you ask a woman how many men she has been with you multiply that by 3 and you have the more likely number. Kevin told me to expect my game in late January early February so multiply the time I was told by 3: August to February 6 months times 3, so thats 18 months, 6 have already gone by, ill receive mine in February of 2016. Lol that doesn't seem like a fun wait.

2 weeks later
#727 5 years ago

The last thing Skit-B need to be doing is going to expos, if that's what they end up doing I'm requesting a refund. That company is so far behind schedule that the only thing they should be concentrating on is building predators. Yet another newsletter where there is no substance. If you're so close to shipping some games why are there no pictures of production, if you are wiring the damn machines up then snap some pics of progress. Shit is getting old. Who knows where we all are in the production schedule, are we looking at this year? Next? Never?

2 weeks later
#1078 5 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

Well, I did exactly that. Sent an email asking if he would provide some pics of completed machines, wiring harnesses, populated playfields, something that would show progress being made. I do not consider that an unreasonable request from someone that has funded a small portion of this venture.
Although I don't anticipate or expect a direct response to my email, I hope that my request will be answered in the next update. I've been patient and my desire to have this very cool pin is waning rapidly. Without some sort of substantial update, I'm not sure if my support will continue.

I sent him an email on the 13th requesting a refund and he responded on the 14th saying he would try and process it but these things take time. It's funny how paying the money to them is immediately processed yet getting a refund is a long drawn out process.

#1096 5 years ago
Quoted from captainadam_21:

All these requests for refunds cannot be good for business.

That's not my problem, I stuck it out for years. Since I can't get open communication to know how my game is coming along and where my money is then I just want my 5 grand back.

#1156 5 years ago

It's a half-assed email. It would have been better to not send anything at all. It leaves most of us to draw our own conclusions and initiate panic without any explanation of wtf he is talking about. So someone called Fox maybe? So apparently refunds will be processed, maybe? I have no idea if any machines are close to being shipped. I gave Kevin an out on my refund, basically telling him if he refunds me fine if not fine, but if not to please at least open up the lines of communication because that is truly what is pissing people off and leads us to our own conclusions of what is happening.

At this point if I'm getting my money back I'd like a time line on that since I basically gave a $4750 interest free loan for a year, I'd hope if the guy hasn't spent all the money that he at least invested it to have that money work for him a bit.

The question I ask about this whole deal is how could someone besides Kevin sabotage this machine from being built? It sounds like an excuse. If you have a license to build "Predator" what could someone on the outside do to compromise the operation?

#1192 5 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

There is *A LOT* of speculation going on here!

That's what happens when you send an email to customers that hints at things but it never gives an explanation of the whole story.

#1362 5 years ago

The Skit-B website has the same information on its thats been there for months. There's not supposed to be this much drama in pinball. Ill tell you what, if this game never sees the light of day and my money was stolen from me then I'll be done with this hobby.

#1367 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

You and me both, brother.

Well heres to hoping we either get a game or our money back eventhough its very slim it would seem. I shoulda just stuck with the used games, a very expensive lesson learned.

#1368 5 years ago
Quoted from urbanledge:

Just more games for the rest of us,

Sure is and you can have them. Good luck I truly hope there is a game made cause Id hate to see anyone taken for a ride. I tried to stick it out but one can only take so much drama for years. Predator #77 if anyone wants it.

#1382 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

That's not fair. The hobby didn't do this to you it was one person. It'd be like saying you are done with the NFL because Ray Rice hit his GF.

I didn't say this was anyone's fault but my own but losing a large sum of money to something that is supposed to be fun and entertaining may be enough to push me out. It's just how I'm feeling right now.

#1406 5 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

Don't worry - we will need a support group, PreOrderDator Anonymous...

Absolutely. Hi my name is Jon and im a predator preorderer.

#1413 5 years ago

I seriously think some people love to see folks lose their money and also see Skit-B crash and burn.

#1420 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I seriously think you're wrong. If you're inferring that the critics somehow take pleasure in SkitB's implosion here- I think you're missing the point.
I would suggest that its FAR MORE dangerous to the health of this hobby to "prop - up" and make excuses for bad business behavior (at best) or worse, fraudulent behavior. All that does is incentivize the next poorly-thought-out business plan to take flight and start collecting money.
By the way, folks here at pinside are partially to blame for the state of things....we are dong this stuff to ourselves! From JPOP to JJP to SkitB to DP to PPS to Stern... in their own ways- we've turned a blind eye to shitty business practices.
Because it would seem that even the most responsible people tend to lose their minds and are willing to stick their heads in the sand and eat shit if their "grail pin" is on the line.
Believe me, all this bullshit stops when BUYERS stop sending their money in. However, as long as people trip over themselves and "sell-out" Stern LE's the minute their announced- you can kiss complete-at-launch-software goodbye. And as long as people will prepay for these startups (and take on ALL the risk) then they will continue to be treated like dolts and unsecured creditors...

Well its my opinion and Im going by the snarky comments some of these asshats post in this thread. I for one don't condone these poor business practices but that ship has sailed and if I knew then what I know now I would have never preordered but for some to claim this is somehow my or any of the other 249 peoples fault is very shortsighted and adds to the frustration.

#1498 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Well, shit, you're right.
BUT, I didn't mean to single out the skitB people as being to blame, at least not anymore than ANY of the rest of us that have been supporting JJP, DP or Stern are to blame.
I was trying to make a bigger point about not holding these companies accountable.
Did NOT mean it to come off like rubbing sand in wounds here.

That wasn't directed at you.

#1764 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Take it for what it's worth...he told me there were 10 machines being made with 3 done or almost done...
This is going to make a good documentary film...

Wow 3 almost done in 3 years, call me in 74 years when my pin is ready.

#1767 5 years ago

Id also like to add if there's no license then those pins he's working on are gonna be giant paper weights. Sorry for the negative tone but im sick of the waiting, and now another two weeks for some fluff thrown our way. If things are bad and you don't have the license Kevin you should probably go ahead and spill the beans cause after listening to coast2coast pinball I fully agree with Nate. There is too much shady stuff going on, no mentioning the word Predator in your email or posts, no sign of the videos or anything to link Skit-B to predator, early on Aaron leaving Skit-B abruptly (leaves me thinking he didn't agree with something you were doing). The update newsletters with pictures we have seen a long time ago. Sorry but the writing is on the wall and I just wish I would have came to my senses before the full shitstorm went down.

#1829 5 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

I wonder how happy/angry everyone would be if Kevin divided whatever amount of cash remains, evenly among all the buyers.
Say you were each out $500-$1000.
Wouldn't that be ok given the current events?
Crappy, but not a complete train-wreck or worst case scenario.

Um considering some of us are paid in full, I think not.

#1977 5 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

So when Kevin said this, did he really believe it to be true, or did he know what he was saying was untrue?
If this was untrue and knowingly said, what other things were said that may be equally untrue?

Quit asking questions you know the answer to. We get it, Kevin has been duping us all along. It doesn't really matter anymore, Im at the mercy of Kevin, I either get my money back, he stole it or a game gets delivered. We'll know sooner or later.

#2080 5 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

(In case it isn't obvious, I'm now wearing my "Predator owner" hat and not my moderator hat for this post, and am only speaking for myself and not on behalf of Pinside/moderators.)
For all those on the sidelines who are watching while chomping on popcorn and just take a break now and then to snarkily imply and/or tell the ones still in on the project how stupid we are and how we should have seen this all along... please give it a break. We get it, we know, you've told us over and over just how ridiculous we were to actually put our trust in a pinball company. I mean, of course no other pinball company before has EVER had controversy, lack of communication, production issues, or extended deadlines. We were obviously just asking for it by trusting in someone that we'd dealt with for a few years instead of, in the last few weeks or so at least, trusting an anonymous group that won't give their names or sources, are supposedly linked to bigger pinball companies, and seem to be doing nothing but trying to shut down a small company by spreading hurtful rumors.
Of course if those rumors are true then we're all screwed no matter what anyway. You all do realize that even if we want out, there's no way to get out at this point, right? Skit-B hasn't been granting refunds now for at least 5 months, and before that it took someone opening a thread, claiming sick children/emergency/disaster, and getting other Pinsiders' help just to get a refund. We can't just proclaim "we're out!" and magically make it so. Those saying we should have seen the signs when the original "sky is falling" discussions started happening please realize that there were no funds to be gotten back, as apparent by the many people answering the poll or posting directly that they've tried to get their money back for months now with no response. I myself haven't gotten an actual email response from Kevin in over 8 months, other than one copy/paste reply awhile back that didn't even answer the questions that I had asked.
And yes, some people stayed in because they knew that if the rumor mills worked and people left in a mass exodus, the project would be dead from lack of funds anyway. The best way to not screw over Skit-B, ensure the company survived the rumors, and not lose your money (that you couldn't get back with an email request anyway) was to sit tight and hope for the best. We know he has money tied up in parts and there's no way everyone can get all their money back, especially if people start fleeing en mass. The rumors may be true, but then again they may just be unfounded rumors that, when mixed with the lack of communication from Kevin, killed a company.
At this point, all we can do it sit and wait. Yes, some are trying to keep their hopes up by praying that everything is ok and that we will actually get a machine. Some, like me, are mad as hell at the whole situation because we're basically helpless and at the mercy of Kevin, or the anonymous group, or Fox, or whoever is screwing us over today. And looking for answers here doesn't help when everyone on the sidelines and with no actual money tied up in this is waiting with baited breath to shout "OMG I TOLD YOU SO, BWAHAHAHAHA, I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG AND YOU ALL ARE SO STUPID" at us. I'm already taking bets as to who will start the first "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread if this all does go to shit.
Great, so maybe you all were right. Congratulations. What good does that do the 250 (or however many are left) of us who got stuck, tried to stick it out for the good of the company/buyers, got screwed over, and lost our money? Some that are secretly poking around claim that they are "doing it for the betterment of the hobby," but I can guarantee you that me losing my paid in full $4750 is going to mean that I'm not really going to be a part of this hobby going forward. I'm not going to be able to afford new in box machines anyway, but I'm not going to trust any company to do a prepaid model. I'm not going to trust companies or groups that had a hand in bringing down a teeny competitor, and I'm certainly not going to trust my fellow pinheads who stood on the sidelines pointing/laughing and got joy out of watching this whole thing crash and burn.

Thanks blondetall, this is exactly how I feel.

#2257 5 years ago

I hate this, if you have information spill it. "So pinside, I have this information that will put your mind at ease, it's good news, so here's the thing... I'm not gonna tell you. Nana Nana boo boo"

#2459 5 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

Whenever I read this thread, I keep thinking in my head to the old days of listening to Howard Stern when he would have the KKK guy on. Although his meaning was racist (which I don't condone). I chuckle thinking of this trainwreck thread and hear his voice in my head but for a different meaning "wake up white people!"
"wake up predator buyers!"

Oh ok im just waking up, im glad you posted this or I would have never known that im being taken for a ride. So now that im awake and you are so insightful what would you suggest I do to get a refund?

#2660 5 years ago

I think a talk with a lawyer is in order. Ill spend more money then I spent on predator just to stop this lying thief from ever ripping people off again. Kevin if you read this, ive sent you multiple emails, text messages and posts on this forum for weeks now, refund my money.

#2670 5 years ago

More fluff, does anyone think kevin really has any intention of following through with refunds? He added that line into the letter to try to ease our minds thinking if refunds were available things arent as bad as they seem. Our money is as good as gone. I say to those of us that are requesting refunds that if the refunds arent given we should pool together to get legal help. This has become nothing more than a con.

#2717 5 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I think a talk with a lawyer is in order. Ill spend more money then I spent on predator just to stop this lying thief from ever ripping people off again. Kevin if you read this, ive sent you multiple emails, text messages and posts on this forum for weeks now, refund my money.

Ill just keep quoting my post to bump it for Kevin

#2735 5 years ago

Not a run on the bank, I wanted a refund long before this latest news. I asked for a refund in February and was told by Kevin that it would take a little time but would be processed. More lies im sure and just like always no ill wait for days or weeks on a response.

We waited two weeks for that pathetic excuse for an update that doesnt say anything about games that are being built or when we can expect refunds.

#2737 5 years ago
Quoted from bigduke13:

Not disagreeing that this has become a mess but it shocks me how personal some of the attacks have become. Does anyone really think Kevin's done all this to scam people? Of course not. And he was very upfront that he was building a business from a garage so it should be no surprise to all the fortune 500 CEOs on this board that there would be issues. If anything he's tried too hard to accommodate everyone, especially at the beginning - frequent posts, welcoming design feedback and suggestions, $5k price tag, etc. He gets pretty far with design, orders parts from suppliers, etc. and then the problems start for a rookie entrepreneur. I imagine he's working 18hr days trying to un-F this for the best scenario being losing money on 250 machines. I'm sure he's trying to work this out so he can get the machine done and fulfill his commitment - dragging his feet on refunds ain't great but it beats a run on the bank where he has to have the business declare bankruptcy and everyone takes a material loss. The only issue I see is at some point he's either got to get it fixed or fold it in, continued delay has run its course. I wish him and the buyers the best and hope it gets worked out.

Sorry but im not gonna sugar coat anything for a person that is no friend of mine and has basically stolen $4750 from me and has been lying outright for a very long time and pumping false hope to his customer base. Being nice or a great guy doesnt mean im just gonna overlook this and put on my rose colored glasses. Also if you don't have money in on this game I don't wanna read patronizing remarks on how we (the 250) should handle this. Here's all I know, I want my money back, Kevin sell a kidney, sell your car, sell other machines you have, I don't care just get me my freakin money. Also Kevin, stop lying to people and be straight with them, now is the time to communicate more than any other time.

#2743 5 years ago
Quoted from GGBGROUP:

I'm also familiar with licensing deals (although I'm a newbie with regard to Kevin and the pinball industry in general) and I know that companies do a significant amount of due diligence BEFORE licensing their IP/brand. They go into ANY deal with skepticism at best as they can't afford to devalue the property. If you were an executive at FOX and had to make a yes/no decision on what Kevin wants re Predator in a pinball machine, how could you possibly ever approve the deal after reading this thread???
For those of you that are still in the pot, get out while you can... IMHO...

While you can was probably 8 months ago. At this point we that want refunds are being held hostage by Kevin.

#2744 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Who knows where the licensing stands at this point (only Kev knows), so maybe we should start thinking about wrapping this up ourselves if a nuclear solution is required.
What if Kevin just shipped the populated playfields, cabinets, circuit boards "as is"; calling it his Jungle Killer game?
What if a torrent appeared with the Predator game code, the cab graphics and translight art, anonymously on the net?
What if people just had the decals and translight printed as a group? Some small mom and pop print shop would love to run 250 sets of decals. For about $2 a square foot, you could have the decals laminated with the shiny clear plastic like JJP charges $400 for.
Ideal? nope.
Doable? yep.
In a way, I like the shadiness of the FIY (finish it yourself), more than the real deal.

If I know im not getting my money back send me the game with no ip property on it. Something is always better than nothing.

#3057 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

so everyone else is allowed to guess at random shit , but I am not?
Do you think he has somehow blown a bunch of cash?
If he has even spent 50k on parts that is a stretch in my mind.
He is reasonably active in the community in MI. Has anyone seen him driving a new car? Partying with hookers and blow? Anything to even hint that he has been using money for anything besides parts for the 10 games we have seen at this point?

Its naive to think in 3 years time he's only spent money on the ten games. He had to pay matt at back alley for the parts not just 10, paid the artist for the playfields, paid spooky to do up the playfields however many that is, paid the virtual pin guy for cabs, however many that is, he's gone to countless shows paid for flights, room and board, food for the trips. The guy also made a statement in one of the old threads about purchasing some type of tools for manufacturing, now im not sure if he ever did but he mentioned it.

Im on board with Nate, pull the plug and salvage face the best you can and return money back to us the preorder folks. The longer this goes on the more likely it is that more money goes out the window. From my observations this project is dead and im not willing to pony up more money to maybe get a game to production. That's wishful thinking and not something I believe Kevin has an ability to accomplish. My 2 cents

Btw Kevin if you're reading this, refund my money.

#3282 5 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

When I had CCC at expo in the booth right next to Kevin & Predator two expos back, I heard him say "It costs me 4 grand every time I build one of these things". That's without paying someone else to build them.

It doesn't cost Kevin anything, only us poor schlubs that bought into this scam. Does anyone really think Kevin would risk a cent of his own money on this train wreck? This isnt a question or attack to you epthegeek, just using your post to quote.

Btw, Kevin I know you're reading this, refund my money!

#3290 5 years ago

My Paypal is set up through my debit card through Bank of America with a visa logo, would I be able to contact them about a chargeback or is that just on a full blown credit card?

#3294 5 years ago
Quoted from Billy16:

Chances are very good that Skit-B doesn't have the money--it is gone, or most all gone. An endeavor that probably started out with good intentions has seriously gone off the rails and turned into fraud, I'm afraid.

Where could all that money have gone? Im pretty sure hes not buying a new house or driving a Mercedes. I think some is gone but I seriously dont see where the rest could have gone?

#3298 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

His wife apparently bought a house last year...

Well if that is true I hope she is enjoying her house as her husband is in prison on fraud charges.

#3301 5 years ago
Quoted from cosmokramer:

Experts of dangerous R and D

Well its a good thing that the local elementary school doesn't charge too much for their services on the art work.

#3302 5 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

My advice is to contact Band Of America and ask them how your credit charges are handled.
My bank treats my credit charges as a normal Mastercard.

Thanks, Ill get a hold of them.

#3305 5 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

With this level of failure there is no evidence there was forethought of any kind. There is no reason to expect that money was managed properly. What if expenses were 2x what they anticipated? What if they issued a number of refunds and people that promised to buy in never followed through? Suddenly liquid assets could have become 1/4 what they expected - leaving them no financial headroom to weather the normal issues related to manufacturing. Or even manufacture anything.

I could see that. Well if it's true that he conned us all then like I said before I'll spend as much as I have to to make sure he pays or is punished in some way. Kevin now is the time you need to speak up, you're gonna end up being nothing but a stain on pinball. The truth will set you free brother.

#3319 5 years ago

You can thumbs down all you want Whysnow but realize I asked for a refund about 5 weeks ago and its not happening. Until my money is returned I have been swindled just like you. You can sit on your nuts drinking the kool-aid but I won't.

#3334 5 years ago

Id like to see how they would split up whats left with some in for $250, some for $3000 and some in for $4750. Some have also bought more than one spot.

#3335 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am all for you getting a refund. I am not all for you threatening to kill anyone. Saying they are just going to be a stain innfers he will be a bloody mess at minimum. This i do not condone.

Boy did that go way over your head. A stain on pinball was just saying a bad mark on pinball. Jeez

#3341 5 years ago

From the sounds of it, its gonna look like an episode of cops over there soon.

Oh and Btw Kevin please refund my money in the amount of $4750.00

#3354 5 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Yep my mistake. Apologies.

I edited it, sorry for the wording.

#3360 5 years ago
Quoted from splitskull:

I don't know how come no one got in the car and drive to his house yet and ask a few questions yet?(politely, non violent). Is he really that far away from everybody?
I think this should have been done before going all nuts with police and fbi... wtf

I believe jetxi (sp?) visited Kevin's house. Better yet Kevin could have chimed in here but decided to stay quiet, sending only bs emails spinning the situation out of control.

#3530 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Same here. PRED next to Aliens? Hello??!?! How cool is that??

Well now it will just be called Two Governors and the Militant Gang Vs. The Snatch Faced Blur Monster sitting next to Aliens. Oh maybe Kevin can hire the voice actor from the walking dead pin to do the voice of Arnold "Git to da aircraft!" He can just skirt the dialog from the film.

#3534 5 years ago
Quoted from rlslick:

This is a 'game over' scenario. At this point I just want to see others and myself see Kevin update us on how he will paying everyone back. I don't even want to read a lengthy apology. He has our emails, just start PP the money back. I want this to be over and done with.

I agree with this.

#3650 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

So very true, but unfortunately there are some that love nothing more than to see something burn so they can say they knew better. Some thrive on the screwing of others and for a long time have been rooting for failure.
It would be nice to have a preowners only discussion but unfortunately there is no way to even know who that is anymore.
Regardless of how bad this situation currently is, it is pretty disgusting some of the posting of personal info and threats of vigilantly justice. Honestly sickens me more than a potential loss of game or money.

Who are these people that are making threats of vigilantly justice? Maybe I missed it but I have not seen any threats of bodily harm. I know you took my one comment way out of context and added your own meaning to it. Just to post it here that Kevin needs to speak up now more than ever or he will go down as being nothing but a stain on pinball(im sure he loves pinball). If he doesnt right the ship, years down the road when people bring up the name Kevin or Skit-B pinball all they are gonna talk about is the big scandal and fraud that is taking place. This is why you need to talk truth right now Kevin, suck it up, check your ego and pride at the door and start talking.

One other note, if you paid Skit-B through your debit card through paypal, you only have a year to file a claim to try and recover that money. Good luck everyone and I hate to see my pinball brothers go through this mess. It makes me sick to my stomach and has really turned me off on the hobby. Take care all.

#3670 5 years ago

Man what a nightmare... I feel so frustrated by this, all I keep thinking about is all the hours I had to put in to pay for Kevin's livelihood.

#3721 5 years ago

Well then if a suit is already filed how can Kevin legally use our money? Wouldn't he be fighting a court case with stolen money? Its not like the money he took was a gift.

#3723 5 years ago

To add to that its in our best interest to file a suit before he start spending that cash.

#3914 5 years ago

Ok I dont mean to be such a wise ass but look in his second facebook account location: Pinconning Michigan. That's kinda funny.

#4117 5 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

ayuh, that's gonna be a really sticky wicket...
given the apparent timing of events, the pile of fecal matter will be high... i say apparent, since i don't know exact dates... but my understanding of the sequence of events would seem to indicate that he at least solicited funds post c&d...
i freely admit i could be wrong on my understanding of the sequence of events...

Well you have to remember that there were plenty of people that opted out and in the process someone from the waitlist took their place and sent in their deposit. So if it is true there was a C&D money was absolutely taken after.

#4662 5 years ago
Quoted from s1500:

This. I see no point trying to vilify FAST, VirtuaPin, or any of the would-have-been partners that Kevin was involved with. Enough bridges have been burned, and there's no sense shunning anyone besides Kevin. Is anyone going to send pitchforks after Spooky for the playfields? No.
Hell, even Whysnow's botique evangelism will now quiet down and we'll all have a good laugh with him about it over a beer at MGC. We will go "Hey, remember when you were on the hunt for Mr. X? Good times, good times". "To Mr. X!" *beers clang*

Fast, and virtuapin, openly told all of us with questions about the license that we were worrying about nothing and that the license was fine, spooky never commented. The reasons I stayed in was because the comments by whysnow, virtuapin and fast, spooky and back alley just made the whole thing seem legit. This whole situation is horrible. Sorry it had come to this fellow pinheads. I've also got two worthless topper/siders from back alley, a couple skitb predator tshirts, and the infrared Arnold figure about 300 bucks of worthless shit also in for the whole amount of $4750. I'd say that's about 5050 reasons to be done with the hobby.

#4670 5 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Ok, now I will listen to suggestions on the best way to send pressurized containers of dog shit through international mail?...... Anyone?

Here ya go, have fun lol


#4683 5 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I've talked with Kevin and his team many times over the years. I really think his intentions were good and he was just excited to make the game happen. I really think he thought he could sneak it in under the radar. I really think he could have, if it didnt' take so damn long to get the games done. If he would have pulled it off in the first year, I really think it would have happened. Never once out of all my conversations with him, did I ever get the impression he was out to get everyones money.

There in lies the problem, if he wanted to sneak it under the radar he should have let the preorder folks know by way of email and let them decide if they wanted to stay in. By misleading us making us think the license was in tact is the opposite of good intentions. I don't even understand the point of not trying to get the license from the get go, many of us, myself included would have paid a little more if we would have known what an actual license was priced at. As for out to get everyone's money, that may not have been his original intention but those intentions changed once the C&D was issued, once it was issued the project was dead.... period, so if it wasn't about the money then why accept a dime after the C&D? Also if it's not about the money then why was a new house purchased by Kevins wife a housewife? If you can't see what is going on here I don't know what to tell you. Please for the love of pinball stop sympathizing with the guy.

#4694 5 years ago
Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

Did any of the buyers get anything shipped from SHIT B?
Like a SHIT B tshirt or skull or whatever.
If they did how much were they committed monetarily when received SHIT B package?
Could SHIT B have used this shipped package to free up the million from pay pal?

No, tshirts were sent to anyone that donated to Skit-Bs website before any deposit was taken. Oh and Kevin might not think he did anything wrong since he didn't actually ship a machine with Fox IP on it, I wonder what he thinks about those shirts?

#4696 5 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I don't know either but would it be possible for Fox to have got a sales list and seized the offending pins if they were built? Fox wouldn't pay for them, Kevin would have been on the hook so it's really best these were never built.
I think even though these pins are home use mainly, Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent that as long as you get them made under the radar you are safe to buy unlicensed pins. Note I am not sure what would occur, but even though the buyer is not at fault, I believe they could be ordered to return the pins to Fox for disposal. Note: I'm unclear about this but it's almost reminds me of when you buy a counterfiet SB ticket that's the buyers problem, not the NFLs.

I would think you are probably right.

#4697 5 years ago

I also wanted to say, I was all for letting Aaron Klumpp off the hook but the more I think about this, he more than likely bailed from the project when he realized Kevin was not gonna aquire a license so at that point Aaron should have informed the buyers of the situation and all of this could have been avoided. That puts him in the same boat to me anyway.

#5093 5 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.
No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about. So you don't have a Tron arcade mod, or any aftermarket toppers on your machines? None of those little lamp shades with the name of the game lasercut into it? You don't buy into unlicensed stuff ever? I call bullshit.
I look at it like this. If you make something cool and selling it, i'll buy it, licensed or not. If it saves me $50 because it's unlicensed, so much the better. I'm not afraid to admit it and most are in the same club. With Kevin making the predator pin, is he taking money out of the pocket of fox? Was fox planning on making the game themselves? Nope, they didn't give a shit and were not going to cash in on it in the slightest. So I don't look at it as all that bad if he would have pulled it off. buyers would have been happy. People got something for their money. Another pin would be floating around the community. Fox would keep on airing their shit reporting news show. Life goes on.

It doesn't matter and you're just making excuses for him, this is not a case of if he could have got away with it, he made a choice for the 250 and put our money at risk just to be "punk rock" and then lied about it when he could have just as easily aquired a license. I'm not on some moral high horse and very well may have bought a predator without license but not with $4750 on the line before it's even built, I'm not that big of a gambler. His intentions started good but turned terribly wrong after the C&D.

#5231 5 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

I haven't followed much of this, but I did play the Predator prototype at Expo and thought some of the rules were pretty original.
I'm not commenting on whatever Kevin supposedly did or didn't do, as I don't know. For all I know he may have been talking to someone and being mislead himself (I'm in a naive mood ).
Anyway, there is a very simple solution for the whole matter. Actually multiple:
1. Kevin gets the license after all, produces the games, end of story.
2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Or 3. Kevin, send me my f@&kin money!

#5732 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Even after plenty of evidence that he clearly didn't know WTF he was doing, Kevin still was given well beyond the benefit of the doubt on these forums.
The emails would have been scoffed at, like all rational concern has been the last few years.
It took them, Aaron's accounts and finally Martin's articles for people to take the issues seriously.
I've said this before but even without licensing issues this game would have trickled out at best, and run out of money long before all owners got their games.

I would have liked to read them to decide for myself if I wanted to "scoff" at them or not. I was not afforded that right and now I sit with no refund and 3 years waiting for this turd to come to a conclusion.

#5738 5 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

Right, so now you're going to come up with some conspiracy theory saying that I'm Kevin right? Lol
Yup, I like making things up on my spare time.

scam.png (Click image to enlarge)

And by your definition how do you know if Kevin made any money off this scam? Youre saying he didn't scam any money because he/kevin is refunding people by his own words in a few days. I asked for a refund about 6 weeks ago. Still no money. Still no proof of all funds accounted for, just hollow statements by Kevin.

The guy absolutely deceived me, and as long as he is sitting on my money he scammed me. Was that his original intention? Imo no, but it is what happened. A court of law will prove that if it happens to go that route.

#5742 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

The OP should add a poll here. Of the folks who have money tied up in this ... how many are interested in pursuing legal action if 100% of their money is not refunded?
OR ...a poll for what percentage of funds people think will be refunded of what is left? 50-60%? 60%-70%?
Because I'm just waiting for the first "refund" to gauge just how truly bad this is.

I think he is having trouble with paypal releasing funds since im sure paypal has been bombarded with claims in the last 48 hours.

#5751 5 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

Does no one who got in on this not live near this Kevin? If he lived here in Kentucky I would drive to his house and knock on his door and demand he give me the EXACT time frame of refunding and how much money is left in whatever account. Short of him calling the police, I would stay there making my demands. I'm not talking vigilante justice, I just mean calling on him and have him show me where the money is and get a grasp of how much is left. I would hound the SOB to death if he lived close to me here! So no one in on this lives in Minnesota, or where ever the hell he lives?

He lives in Michigan, im sure there are people in this close by. I know I've thought about driving out there but im a long way away and im not so sure what knocking on his door will accomplish. Im giving him this last deadline to refund my money and if it doesn't happen Ill proceed with a suit.

#5759 5 years ago
Quoted from DeeGor:

Maybe those and the virtuapin cabs can be auctioned off.

virtuapin-predator-cabs.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Those are gonna have to be destroyed, or the decals removed.

#5771 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Try these on and take another look. Pic shamelessly lifted from PurpleDrillMonkey.....


Ok thats funny shit

#5838 5 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

This whole thing is bullshit. The dedicated website and "penance" and more questions about licensing. The only thing that matters is when are refunds going out.

Exactly and it seems the more I read from the "anonymous", the more it seems like their only intent is to screw over people trying to get refunds. Look you want to get to the bottom of this wait for a reasonable amount of time for us to get our money until then, you are not helping. You've got your money so enough of this, it seems you're trying to push Fox along into suing Kevin into an oblivion before the real victims(us) get our money back. Fox as I see it wasn't harmed, no game was released.

I appreciate what you did to prove no license but this open letter is not helping.

#5951 5 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I am still unclear why anyone would pay for any machine in this manner.
I have had dealers tell me that they will shave off another $200 or so if I pay by bank transfer or check. On a $6,000+ machine I am not paying with anything other than American Express. My peace of mind is worth much more than $200.

Cause not everyone uses credit cards, I don't use credit cards unless I absolutely have to and I also dont have any credit cards that are over a 3k limit because I don't use them. I paid through paypal with my debit/visa card and called my bank and they would refund the money if it wasn't over a year old. But my first payment was in November of 2012. Not much I can do at this point. If a lawsuit ensues I wouldn't be surprised that a bunch of the chargeback have to go back into the pot and the money distributed across the preorders. Just a guess though.

#5994 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

You can also live in an outhouse... but we aren't going to change the expectation that most people here have running water. Seriously.. unless due to some former life choice you can't have credit - stop using debit cards and use someone else's money.

Yeah umm no thanks. I do have credit cards and buying one large item on my debit card isnt gonna make or break me if it goes belly up, which it did. If I used credit cards im sure I would have wasted just as much cash in credit card fees. Some people don't need to live off credit cards, even if I had used a credit card there is a good chance I couldn't get a chargeback after 2 and a half years anyway. Even folks that used a credit card are in the same boat.

#6005 5 years ago
Quoted from txstargazer3:

I do the same thing, never have a balance, and I am getting lots of frequent flyer miles. However, this is only a good idea if you are wired a certain way. For some folks it can be a slippery slope to heavy high interest debt.
It's not a judgement on anybody, but you have to take an honest look at yourself and see if it is a dangerous move for you or not. I know it sounds weird, but I have a real sense of accomplishment each month when I pay the cc balance in full. I know that I am living within my plan.

Yeah this is kind of where im going with it. I know my limitations and don't trust myself with credit cards.

#6025 5 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

If you really are at that kind of risk.. is buy $5-$8k toys really that smart of an idea?
If you can't control yourself.. then face the problem and put reasonable limits on your cards to force yourself to stay within them.
Debt Visa cards were great for people not old enough to get credit cards, or those who need a secured version due to past credit (or no credit) issues. Anyone using them long term really need to face the music and start their own financial coaching/practice.
I can't help myself with spending.. and "i'm buying predator" from the same people... is damn scary.

Give me a break. What I do with my money is my business and I definitely don't need people preaching to me about it. You handle your money your way and let me worry about myself. This whole financial judgement is a waste of time. I bought into predator with entertainment funds how I chose to buy in with my own cash, not some banks credit card is my business. I've always lived by cash is king and credit cards are just trouble to me. My wife handles the finances so im not going through the trouble of juggling credit cards. Predator was also the only machine ive ever bought through paypal so Ill chalk it up to a learning experience. The fact that people are getting chargebacks does not guarantee they will hold onto those funds if lawsuits are filed and money that kevin is sitting on has to be distributed evenly.

#6099 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

KC, I think you may be seeing insults where not intended. We'd be shocked at how many folks juggle hobbies and bills as if they are all the same. I know a few who make a bit less than me but are broke all the time.
Flynnbus could've presented better, but meh.

That's probably true, im just a little on edge since this went down, I hate to hear advice after hindsight. I don't feel like im an idiot for using a debit card vs. a credit card, they are for some folks but not me.

#6103 5 years ago
Quoted from Whridlsoncestood:

Used my bank account via PayPal. Filed claim sunday. Just got spit back saying closed automatically due to over 180 days. Payed June 24th.

What bank are you using. I used bank of america and they told me I have a year to file a chargeback. And when you tell them you want a chargeback on a preorder you paid for tell them the release of the preorder was February 28th 2015 (they have some kind of 60 day timeline for that). Anyway hope that helps, Im well past the year on some of the payments but if I had filed a chargeback 6 weeks ago when I originally asked for a refund I would have got 2 grand back.

#6105 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If Kevin has hired his attorney, I'm sure they said "No more talking to anyone!!!".
First thing an attorney usually does is tell you to shut your stupid mouth.

Kevin is still talking, trust me.

#6114 5 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Kevin really does have a secret deal with Paypal !

Quoted from Whysnow:

I just got off the phone with Paypal and the lady told me that the SkitB account has the funds to apparently refund all people and transactions. She seemed to think it was going to take a little bit?
she asked me for 'patience'.
Just wanted to relay what I was told from paypal.

Did paypal really tell you this? They are really not supposed to give out details of another persons account to you. I was told that Kevin has indeed been talking to them but they wouldn't give me any details. So I took that as meaning he is absolutely trying to issue refunds.

#6116 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

She really told you that? She looked up all the transactions and found all the money is still there?

Yeah that post seems very naive

#6202 5 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I emailed Kevin and asked about timeframe for refunds. 10 minutes ago he said they started 2 days ago.
....edit: I sent another email asking what was happening with people who have sent checks....

I won't believe him till I see the first paypal refund, not a credit card chargeback.

#6268 5 years ago

This is gonna have to be a group effort cause Kevin isn't doing shit. I wonder what amount paid with other than a credit card?

#6274 5 years ago

Just a heads up, Kevin isn't talking now which leads me to believe he has legal counsel. I had been talking to him through text messaging and he assured me that he has the majority of the funds in paypal and is trying to refund the funds. He did say he has spent money on parts and that he will replace them by selling what he can. From his text he said that the paypal account has been locked since June of 2013 because paypal does not allow preorders. He also said there is a person that works for paypal that he was strictly doing business with and would only release funds to him for parts and whatnot as long as he provided very detailed paperwork to prove where the funds were going.

How much of this is true I have no clue? I'd say if he got legal counsel the chance of refunds are probably slim now jmo. I told him to send an email explaining everything he is doing with paypal and to be as translucent as possible and to not speak like a politician and most would be patient and work with him. He hasn't taken that advice. He was trying to refund me(his words) but I believe was having issues with paypal. Take from this what you will.

#6290 5 years ago
Quoted from MarcG:

I was refunded Nov 7th 2014. How did he manage that? Kevin is a liar, you can't believe anything he says.

Read my post again, he said it was locked but not that he doesn't have access to the funds just that paypal had to approve him pulling funds from it. And yes I realize he is a liar which is why I said take from my post what you will.
The approval of paypal seems legit to me if you look back to when people requested and got refunds pre-shitstorm, it always took a while because he had to jump through hoops with a locked account to send funds.

#6316 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Me too man. Money's gone? Probably. But Skitb had some kickass ideas on PRED.

Yeah I think the last video of the game it looked fantastic with the new lighting and everything. It is sad that a predator pin won't see the light of day.

#6350 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

You really blame paypal for this problem?
I think, GENERALLY, most buyers don't need 2 years to determine whether a transaction is on the level.... or even 6 months.
Frankly, I think paypal policies are already INCREDIBLY skewed in favor of buyers.
The big problem here (once again) is Kevin. PayPal standard t&c say that sellers cannot presell items that will take longer than 20 days to deliver - EXACTLY to prevent this sort of problem.
HEre is the relevant excerpt from paypal policy:

Now, the policy does go on to state this, which may explain why the funds might still be frozen in the account:

This kinda falls in line with what Kevin told me so I believe most of the funds are still there, now paypal releasing them to Kevin is another problem. I just want this mess done. Im sure there is a big mess from chargebacks to claims to people past the 180 days. You would think all Kevin would have to do is supply paypal with the names and email of the people that he needs to refund and the amount then paypal should comply but it seems more like the money is being held hostage.

#6355 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Just parroting what I've read here. Agreed.
Saul-"whatever you do, do NOT give them their money back!"
Saul-" Because you're going to need it. For council."

I get what you're saying but that would be terrible legal advice, going from lawsuits stemming from fox to charges being brought up from 200 customers, He could get off on charges a lot easier if he showed he is refunding folks instead spending our money on legal troubles which would have to increase jail time I would think.

Im not saying he won't try to use that money for legal counsel but he would be a fool to use it. Out of 200 people how many do you think will step up and file charges. I can tell you if a refund doesn't come I am absolutely filing with the police. Maybe I would never see a dime of my money but It would be piece of mind that a crook was being punished.

With all that said I feel like Kevin is trying to come through with refunds and I find it hard to believe he'd want to besmirch his own name worse than it already is. He knows if he makes good on refunding everyones money with time he will be forgiven and be able to show his face around the pinball community again, that I would think is weighing heavily on his mind.

How many of you have no problem forgiving Kevin if he makes good on your cash?
I know I will.

#6357 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

I just want this mess ended, one way or another, instead of stuck in perpetuity.
I have a feeling Kevin and PayPal will be pointing fingers for a while, and we are stuck waiting.
Or miracles happen and folks get money back suddenly.

Im with you on that brother. I just want to move on with my life.

#6360 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

If there is one iota of truth to Kevin wanting to fight to deliver these pins to us, whether he succeeded or not, then absolutely I would forgive.
Let folks get thier money back, most or all of it, if all money returned then yes, Kevin is still one of us. He would've tried and failed. But if money is gone, or most spent, ( I'm inclined to believe not the case at all), then he should stay away forever, which would make this a true tragedy for everyone.
Would I sell my soul for $808,000? No. Not any amount.
Unless it's a trillion.

I feel the same way. We will find out sooner or later what kind of man Kevin is.

#6361 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

You should have already filed with PayPal , filed with credit card and filed a police report . If you have not done this then it's hard to understand your position anymore.
If you sent a check file the police report so you have grounds for a possible tax deduction.

I filed with paypal, immediately closed, called my bank nothing they could do. Only thing I haven't done is file a police report.

#6363 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Me? My position? Already said I'm not chasing the money. If my $4750 can go towards other guys in this mess getting ALL the money back out of a potentially small pool of refund money, so be it. I've already written it off as a loss but closure on situation is my desire is all.
I've been stolen from and caught scammers before. This situation feels oddly unusual. Maybe cuz Kevin was so into the culture with us?
I get angry all the time. I've got a mean temper; this situation just feels sad IMO.

Well I appreciate you doing that but I don't think that is gonna have to be necessary. If refunds come in you should absolutely get your cut.

#6422 5 years ago

This is probably a silly question but I have never filed a police report. Should I file one in kansas city where I live or in michigan where Kevin lives? He's had plenty enough time to keep in contact with us and he refuses to.

#6424 5 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I spoke with my local bank branch last Saturday. They instructed me to file a fraud report with MY LOCAL police office in which I reside.
I'm preparing my documents tonight and am going to file tomorrow. I'm also going to file with the Michigan AG.
Good luck to us all!

Thanks for the info. At this point I don't expect to see a refund, but im also not gonna let someone blatantly steal money from me either.

#6427 5 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Have you posted in the other "buyers list" thread? We are discussing group options on the formation of a battle plan. I would suggest any buyers still sitting on the fence to please consider joining us.

Yeah you have already pmed me.

#6429 5 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Have you posted in the other "buyers list" thread? We are discussing group options on the formation of a battle plan. I would suggest any buyers still sitting on the fence to please consider joining us.

Are you talking about rlslicks thread?

#6436 5 years ago
Quoted from nhm:

Reposting this because I think some people need to read it. Demanding communication and threatening to show up on his doorstep will accomplish nothing except waste your time. I wouldn't even file a fraud report, I would sue for the amount owed me. I guess you could do both if you wanted. Your best and fastest way to get your money back is by suing for the amount owed, and then making your claim in a bankruptcy hearing.
You will not hear from Kevin again. Period.

What I guess I don't understand is how someone can file bankruptcy while sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars, he would have prove he doesn't have the funds to pay his outstanding debts or am I off base? Its not like he can just file bankruptcy and keep our money. At this point if he files bankruptcy I want to see him tossed in jail.

#6461 5 years ago

I'm personally of the feeling that if he indeed files bankruptcy that we push for fraud charges and he will never be welcome in another pin event. There's no way I'm cool with him robbing my funds by way of bankruptcy. This is absolutely fraud though, this guy took money for IP he didn't have the right to and never intended to get the rights to it.

#6605 5 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Note where this 'Kevin Kulek' is from....A bit of foreshadowing???
'Pin Conning' Michigan...You can't make that up

Yeah I brought that up last week, crazy stuff.

#6609 5 years ago

Here is a crazy theory, what if the AG doesn't really have any evidence of a lack of license and that is why they stayed anonymous? Maybe their intent was to destroy Skit-B? They don't seem to be speaking up or helping with facts and evidence to those of that are looking for refunds so it would seem they had other motives and didn't care about the community at all.

As I said just a theory but it is hard to believe a group of people that won't come forward and had already got their resolution.

#6614 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Ha! Yeah, maybe Kevin is just "innocent"
Good one!

I didn't say innocent, and its just a theory. I still haven't seen any hard evidence proving anything the anonymous group has said. Why stay anonymous at this point? My own feeling is they don't give two shits about the community. If you're gonna blow the whistle on a company I need to know the people we are talking about here and their character, for all we know its a group of cons.

This statement is in no way approving of Kevin and his terrible business ethics, that is a separate matter and I don't want to compare the two.

The thing is if we sue Kevin we are gonna need some hard evidence and it would help to get that from the people that brought this to light and last I checked they are as silent as Kevin.

1 week later
#6897 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Did I completely miss folks discussing here the AG group's response to posts on here? I just now noticed on their Wordpress page that they put out another update back on April 1 (apparently) responding to several posts from this thread and officially declaring they are done and won't comment again. Or was this discussed in another thread?
Over and Out
Everybody knows what they need to know. They got what they came here for. Site views here are down to less than 30 views a day, the last 7 days. Just so everybody knows. It is what it is. There’s obviously not really anything more to be said.
For those looking for “more”, it’s up to Kevin to provide that information. Frankly, it was always up to Kevin: From the moment he knew of any fragment of trouble in his path, he should have informed his investors. It was never the responsibility of third parties, such as us or Pinball News. However, in the absence of trying to get Kevin to fix things, and/or come clean to the public – we did our duty to inform in the end anyway, since he failed to.
This does not mean ongoing sleuthing (at least on our part. PBN may vary) as we were merely a source for the story. Not the only source, but the primary one. If one were to use an analogy, Martin Ayub would be the position of Glenn Greenwald, and we would be the Edward Snowdens. Except Martin is providing the information gathered (from us, other industry pros, key sources for validation, and Kevin Kulek himself) without revealing the sources. That is the key pact between a journalist and his sources. We’re not looking for fame, nor the obvious backlash from some. Truthfully, Fox carried the torch against Kevin – not us – and we were simply kept in the loop for a long while. Remember, March 10 was the last contact from Fox, and it’s been that way ever since.
In closing, to answer a few people still seemingly bent on revealing and roasting our asses:
["I still haven’t seen any hard evidence proving anything the anonymous group has said."]
You don’t have to. Martin took care of all of that for you. He has all his vetting done, and if he’s published it, it’s a done deal. Precisely why we stuck to the path of Pinball News. Any other unvetted avenue for messaging, and the entire thing would have remained up for speculation and enough time had been wasted already. Pinball News was like using the “New York Times of the hobby”. Revealing Kevin’s truth on PinSide or a solo blog site would have been like using YouTube Comments.
["Why stay anonymous at this point? My own feeling is they don’t give two shits about the community."]
Pretty much because of that second sentence. Plus dozens of others who are dying to go down an entirely irrelevant side road and debate us and our character. As stated in the very first article – who we are is irrelevant. The information we found was all that needs to be discussed and acted upon. We refuse to become part of a sideshow discussion – and after seeing the things said after publication, we are steadfastly glad we made that decision in the very beginning. We were going to eventually reveal ourselves in time… but that idea has since been squashed. Squashed hard.
["I need to know the people we are talking about here and their character."]
No you don’t. You simply don’t. Our published information rests on its facts, and it’s facts alone. It’s been vetted, it’s been published. Take it or leave it. We can’t do much more than that. We’re not looking for psychiatry or analysis on us as people. Complete tangent totally off the tracks of what matters in this issue.
["For all we know its a group of cons."]
If you think the accusations of cons can get past Martin at PBN, and cons (who are making shit up) can somehow make Kevin Kulek (in his own statements) admit the shutdown and refund of his entire project, then we need to know precisely what we have told everybody that doesn’t add up to the obvious Predator project behaviors of the last 6 months, and the eventual recent conclusion. To do all this, all to be a bunch of bullshit? Again, the tangents are becoming sideshows just to fill blog postings and keep threads going.
["If we are going to sue] we need some hard evidence, and it would help to get that from the people that brought this to light."]
If things get to the point between lawyer(s) and plaintiff(s) going after Kevin, then it’s not up to us to do the legwork for the attorney(s). We provided the name of the senior counsel at Fox. Have your lawyer(s) call him for evidence. Just remember the limits of our role. Far smaller than folks are suggesting. PBN did 10X the work and research we did. We were merely the seed. We provided a few key pieces of the puzzle, provided first-hand solid evidence (which PBN will keep on hand). PBN gave the issue fairness and balance with countless olive branches to Kevin Kulek to fix things, respond, answer questions, and/or come clean. Way more than we would have. It burned up a few months, but there was that glimmer of possible hope that sustained Martin’s desire to see the project succeed. Some are upset with the delay, most understand the reasons why time had to be given.
This will be the last posting from us on this matter. There’s really nothing more that we can provide anyway. Some will always be baffled and bothered by the whole “Anonymous Group” thing… we recommend just letting it go.
Because as of this last post, we certainly are.
Best of luck to all involved. One of us is still embroiled in this thing, and has taken the path of (what appears so far to be) the successful credit card chargeback route. Will know the true finality in a month or so.

Sorry anonymous group there is still no evidence. Im sure all the 200+ buyers will be happy to know that now with a successful creditcard chargeback the whole anonymous group will have successfully recouped all their funds, I know it makes me feel all warm and fuzzy. All we have is an article that you the AG wrote and a PN article and at this point from my perspective is just your word against Kevin, now do we know as a group that Kevin is a lying thief? Yes we do but that doesn't change the fact that the AG could be a bunch of people with an agenda to take Skit-B down by any means possible and only watch out for their own hides. Obviously I struck a chord with them which is why they pretty much quoted my posts but here we sit in the same situation since the news broke out, ripped off and lied to, but hey AG, you got yours good job!

#6980 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Is it just me, or is Pinside becoming less fun by the day?

Um you think? The thrill is gone. To stay on topic, thanks for ruining pinside Kevin.... douchenozzle.

#6982 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

So....you don't understand life.
The facts are SO simple & clear.
-Kevin never had the license.
-Kevin never had the ability to mass produce.
-Had the story not come out, no one would have a Predator ever anyway.
But I'll humor you - if the truth was wrong, Kevin would have refuted it with proof. He said "project is over, refunds are coming" ...and has vanished - no one has received refunds. The cherry-lie on top of the sundae-lie. Kevin is the bad guy. His fault entirely. Blame the villain, not the messenger.

I don't understand life? Piss off. One thing I do understand is that an anonymous group of cowards posted a bunch of stuff without actually proving it. Do I think Kevin has the license absolutely not, do I have proof? No. All I know is if I was part of a group of people that bought into predator and had information that could save a lot of people their money I would have no problem coming forward and not hiding behind an anonymous moniker, the bottom line as I see it is the AG only cared about themselves in order to insure they received their money back, to make them heroes is a joke.

I dont have my head in the sand Rob, Kevin is a lying, stealing chode to the highest degree but if you think im gonna thank an anonymous group of cowards you're wrong. They didnt help me as I see it, im in the same if not a worse spot now than before. As for the thumbs down, who gives a shit, do you think I won't sleep tonight cause some guy on the internet gave me a thumbs down? At the end of the day it doesn't matter. If I filed a case against Kevin do you think the posting of an anonymous group of people would be enough to prove my case and return my funds? Its a serious question.

When the anonymous groups original article came out I was somewhat relieved then thsy did a follow up that proved their character and I saw their true colors and intent. Im sorry that doesnt jive with some here but im not on this thread to make friends, agree or disagree thats the point of a forum but youre not gonna change my feeling on the CAG.

#6985 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The AG is not made up of Saint's or great guys, and they could have obviously handled things differently/better, but your post still comes down to shooting the messenger.
And I disagree with you saying that you are worse off now that before this shit came to light. As Rarehero said, you were not going to get a game anyway.
The head in the sand comment comes from your statement about there being no proof that Kevin doesn't have a license.

Quoted from jayhawkai:

How does one prove the nonexistence of something?

The only proof we would have is Kevin on record saying there is no license or the fox recorded phone conversation that we don't have. That's kind of my point.

#7031 5 years ago
Quoted from angus:

If you have to go in front of a judge (or a cop or the fbi) for a lawsuit proof is important. Those without any money on Predator could care less about going in front of a judge, so having some real proof isn't important. I think Kcpinballfan cares about actually proving to someone else as opposed to just assuming it is the case. The lawyers name at Fox is about the best we have. Posts on the internet don't add up to much.

Exactly, you said it much better then I was coming across. If im gonna be labeled as killing the messenger Id like to know the person/s im killing. You see I guess Im different but if I have information that is legit im not gonna hide behind an anonymous moniker, that just doesn't sit well with me. If you're being truthful and have nothing to hide then why remain anonymous? What's the purpose of hiding? Are they really this worried what the people of this community think? I guess I just don't get it. You see at least pinball news did their research and had no problem coming forward with the story and we know who reported it, but to remain anonymous seems very childish and silly, its not like we are dealing with some top secret spy shit.

I welcome the thumbs down btw, roger ebert would be proud if he was still alive.

#7079 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Especially when they sit on that information for months pulling a majority of the 'plebs' out of the chargeback timeframe

I know if they had openly told the story about Skit-B when they knew it I could have received about 80% of my money back. Oh well lesson learned, im done with this hobby.

#7084 5 years ago

If anyone has the handles of the anonymous group and don't mind sharing them with me hit me up on PM so I know who to ignore on this site, I have a feeling on 1 or 2 but im not 100% sure.

#7088 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

Kc, You got to let this AG thing go. You are relentless in this pursuit for wanting to know who they are,
Who they are doesn't matter in the least.
Do you really care who was the whistle-blower in the Bernie Madoff scandal?
Your thinking is back-wards.
You keep saying you want proof from them, it's not them that need's to provide the proof,
It's Kevin..!!! Kevin needed to provide proof he had a license for predator.!!,
which he does not, but , he stated he did...
what part of that don't you understand? Just let it go already.

I don't care what they know, this AG was actually happy and taunting at least one buyer on predator hoping he loses his money, they are shitbags, Id like to know who they are so I can add them to ignore. What don't you get about that? My feeling is if they felt that way about one then they probably felt that way about all of us in on it. They sat on info and they hide behind anonymous, I don't want to associate with those kinds of people. I come here to enjoy discussions on upcoming things in pinball and share in the joy of people's experience with pinball as a whole and since all this has gone down it has pretty much turned me off on the whole thing.

Ive been ripped off so I would appreciate it if you didn't tell me how to feel or what matters and doesn't matter to me. I don't want sympathy and I don't need others to agree with me. Ultimately it was my stupidity putting money into a new start up and no the AG owes me nothing but I get the right to my opinion of the cowards and that POS Kevin Kulek. I hope they toss the book at him. If you are reading this Kevin you are a huge piece of trash and you shouldn't have been able to procreate, now your family is gonna have to suffer cause you're a lying, theiving, sociopath. Scumbag

#7090 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

Why does it matter? really.
I also read above where if they reported it earlier, some people could of got back money?
And after that, they went ABOVE AND BEYOND, and wanted a TRUSTED pinball new's
reporter (Pinball News) to double-check on their findings and report it...which took some time,
what part of that don't you understand? my gosh....

Read above, what don't you understand? They weren't waiting on facts, they had facts from Fox. Fox told them there was no license so they helped Fox protect their license and stayed silent because the Fox lawyer asked them to. At that point they should have immediately broke news to us. Add to that the smugness and taunting really tells me all I need to know about it.

Are you out money on Predator?

#7093 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

I don't believe for a second they wanted ANY PRE-ORDER to lose money,
Yes, they teased one member on here, but not that he would LOSE money,
just that he would not receive an ILLEGAL GAME that 90% of the other
pre-order's would never be able to take possession.

Im not gonna argue with you and you can think what you want but im not changing my stance on the AG. You seem very adamant in backing them so lets just agree to disagree about them.

#7099 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

Again, they wanted the REPORTING to be done by a TRUSTED PINBALL NEWS organization.
Yes, they could of come forward, said who they were (basically concerned pinsiders),
and YOU would of torn them a new one.(as well as others)..Because they had no prior
CREDENTIALS for reporting news , or whatever, and you would want more proof,
but they took it a step further, and let PBN CONFIRM EVERYThING. ....
So, no, your twisted thinking should be taken up with PBN, (And it shouldn't),
On why it took so long to confirm, but confirm it was....
so get over it..

See my last post to you. You're not changing my twisted mind.

#7100 5 years ago

As stated before if anyone finds out who the AG is please pm me the info, I'd appreciate it. I only want that info to put them on ignore and nothing more and would prefer not to keep having others argue with me about my opinion as twisted as some may think it is. Thanks

#7102 5 years ago
Quoted from limelime20:

you agree it's twisted, 'enuff said..lol

Everyone here is twisted in one way or another.

#7216 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Guess who's at Michigan Pinball Expo! It's Aaron Klumpp! Hmm. I'm glad he's not in hiding.

If you would walk up to him and ask where our money is.

#7219 5 years ago
Quoted from practicalsteve:

This is all a really sad state of affairs, I have friends that are in this mess and I feel for them.
As for the whole argument that the AG should have said sonething earlier.... Would it really have made a difference? If every single person suddenly bum rushed Kevin for a refund would that have gone smoothly? Weren't people already having trouble getting refunds? I just don't see any way that any kind of mess could have been avoided since it seems that there have been problems for quite some time.
My sympathies to everyone involved.

I can't speak for everyone involved but from my side if they had released what they knew when they found out I would have been able to recover most of my money via bank chargeback. Now sadly im out the whole $4750 (before the AGCJ gets all up in arms, I realize im ultimately responsible for the protection of my funds)

#7220 5 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

He's not so innocent, he just bailed before the shit hit the fan. I'm sure he knew right from the beginning what was going on.

For sure, that guy sold the game as much as Kevin. As far as im concerned he owes me money too.

#7224 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

snip stuff I've answered too many times.

Once again appealing to the common good. It's easy to tell people what they "should" do when you're on the other side of the coin. How about if they're on the same side of the coin?
If the common good is so important to you, next time something like this comes around, appoint yourself the savior of all who need saving and do the research for the benefit of the flock.
In fact, a situation is going down right now: JPOP. And the stakes are higher since JPOP games were nearly double the price of Skit-B. A lot of people don't know what's going on, can't get refunds, no communication, missed deadlines. Sounds oddly familiar, doesn't it? Since you're so invested in the common good, go get the info. Go get them truth.
After all, it's the right thing to do, right? Everyone here on Pinside is your friend, right? You wouldn't let a friend just twist in the wind, I'm sure. Some are into Zidware for upwards of 25k. Surely the urgency is there. I'm sure you'll do your part for the common good.

I didn't realize there we license problems with JPOP games. What is there to unveil about the JPOP situation that the buyers don't know? Serious question. From my perspective these are apples to oranges situations. Is it a fact that JPop never plans on building the games and just is trying to scam people? If so that's pretty damn messed up, if there is something I can do to help I gladly will.

#7227 5 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Yup, he bailed knowing the whole thing was a lie, and he let everybody throw their money at Kevin. He's f'n' scumbag too, and evidently even more stupid than Kevin Kulek because he'll show his face in public. I hate those f'n' guys.

That guy must have balls of steel, if there are any preorder folks there that feel the way I do that guy should probably go home, it could get ugly. Im not so sure I could just be civil with him. I guess we'll hear something sooner or later if sh#t hits the fan.

#7229 5 years ago
Quoted from tracelifter:

Probably supporting pinball with some of it like paying to get into the show.

Yeah you know the guy had to draw a paycheck. He's as much of a crook as Kevin.

#7232 5 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

That is stunning. Anyone talk to him? Everyone is upset at AG, surely he knew the product was not licensed as well...even before money was sent in.

This is what I said early on. He is not off the hook and he absolutely knew about the license and should have informed everyone when he found out. He is as much a part of the con as Kevin.

#7235 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Funny you play the "why so mad bro" card when I throw the ball back in your court.
But since you asked, yeah, it does sort of get my sense o' justice panties in a twist when the whistleblower gets attacked. As I already said, I've been a whistleblower and that's what happened to me. And just like the AG, taking reasonable steps to protect myself was attacked by people like you, who claimed all sorts of moral superiority and "common good" justifications when really they were just butt-hurt.
So, that out of the way: What does it matter if they're passed the charge back time? Are you saying doing the "right thing" for the "common good" only matters if it gives them that avenue? Most of the money was sent by check to JPOP. But your crack investigation could get them the info they need to go successfully sue JPOP open and shut, with minimal legal fees. Heck, you could even still do that for all the Predator folks still looking for relief who are past the charge back time. Go chase down Fox and get definitive proof (ideally an official document), for all your "pinball friends" and the "common good" of no license, so they can prove it in court and get in and get out in short order, with minimal time and cost.
You can still make a difference, and you clearly want to, so there are a couple of ideas of how you can.

Ill ask again, what has JPop done that is illegal? Did he not have proper licensing? Did he give a delivery date and not deliver a machine? How long is too long to manufacture a product before someone can call foul? These are serious questions and much different than the fraud that Kevin planned.

#7276 5 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Few friends part of AG?

Yeah Id say really close friends. You can tell by the staunch support of all that is the AGOCJ and downvotes of anyone who opposes.

#7277 5 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Lamest cop-out ever. So you didn't lift a finger in the first place so it's not your problem, but now you see fit to judge others who did. You smelled fire, sold out of your spot to save yourself, and then whistled past the graveyard all the way home with a blindfold on.
Got it. You sound like a great guy.

Sorry but this is out of line and absolutely untrue. I talked to him when he was getting out and he knew as much as me about what was going on and found someone to take his spot. He didn't find out it was a scam till well after he got out. What Bill has stated has been true.

#7288 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Wow. That's some superb detective work there! Who ever would have put the facts together like you and BadBilly have here?! Amazing!

Thank you, I think so to. It wasn't to hard to crack the code.

#7291 5 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm thumbs downing you because you've become Joseph McCarthy. You're being disgusting, creepy, and slandering. That is why I'm thumbs downing you. Are you so shocked that someone might think you're being a maniac? Is that so unthinkable? Are you that self unware? Anyone who thinks whistleblower witch-hunters are dicks must be AG?

Anyone who disagrees with your witch hunt is labeled AG or friends of AG. Hypocrite.
My stance is this: Kevin Kulek is responsible for this situation. Those who did the research are not accountable for anything wrong. I don't want to keep repeating my opinion on th