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Skit-B Pinball, 2013
Experts of Dangerous
Skit-B Pinball, 2014
Predator
Skit-B Pinball, 2013
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Skit-B Pinball, 2013
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Skit-B Pinball, 2013You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider jlm33.
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Quoted from Jared:Cool. Two months to the day tomorrow. November is pretty well into the fall, no? That means anyday now.
Quoted from Jared:That could be absolutely awesome if it's true.
I'll give you that: you are a very subtle Troll, but a Troll nonetheless...
Quoted from PaulCoff:Wasn't there a pod cast interview with Kevin talking about how he got the license from fox?
There was. From what I remembered, he mentioned there was a phone number at the back of the Predator DVD box... he simply called that number. (I am not making this up, right?)
Quoted from underlord:Well, I'm sticking it out with Skitb. If I get my PRED, awesome. Risk and reward, but also cause and effect could go either way.
Quoted from sensfreak:I am sticking with Skit-B as well.
Quoted from Hazoff:Not much, but there's no way I could give up my spot.
Quoted from Mitch:Yup im not giving mine up ether. Ill ride it out till the end.
Joining the club: I am sticking with Skit-B too...
Quoted from MMuller:I'm in on Predator, but does anyone know the price on the second one?
I believe there was an interview with Kevin addressing that. He did not gave an exact figure but something in the $5k range? Am I making this up?
Quoted from johngravenews:OK, I get the frustration but how many of the more vocal posters actually are still in the fully paid up camp?
This!
Quoted from johngravenews:I've always known that this was a risk and I suspect that most of the people who actually paid weighed up this risk at the time.
Same.
Quoted from johngravenews:The most basic Pro Stern is $2500 more than that
Well, don't forget you will have to pay VAT and transport on Predator as well. I doubt the final difference will be that large!
Quoted from Jared:To make game #2 a sold out hit, Kevin would need to employ the exact same level of hype, interest, enthusiasm and excitement that he did for Predator: which is now impossible.
There are things I would agree with in this post, others I would not. Hard to give a thumb up and down at the same time.
Just to comment on potential game #2. Delivering game #1 will help and a lot a people will forgive Skit-B shortcomings when Predator hits home. I will.
But communications and delays are not the only problems they will be facing with game #2. Theme and artwork are. I tend to agree with this:
Quoted from fosaisu:But if they had the Aliens license and were doing a limited run (say 200 machines) I bet they could still generate some solid pre-order business because people would be concerned about the scarcity of a "must have" theme.
I would not conclude Skit-B will or will not be able to release a second game even if hardly any of us would put a deposit on EoD right now. Their business model might have to change. Showing a potential investor you are capable of producing a game may help raising money.
Quoted from benheck:"Dino Ridin' DD Beach Babes VS The Nazi Zombie Army of Doom"
We kind of miss the Ben Heck's Zombies from the good old BHZA days... 
so what about
Dino Ridin' DD Beach Babes VS Ben Heck's Zombie Army of Doom ?
Post edited by jlm33: hopefully no one will mind the "Nazi" to BH change !
Quoted from Plungemaster:Which moran is tilting those lovely ladies all over the forum????
Tilting is actually useful. This is not a thumb down nor a moral judgment - just a way to warn people there is "sensitive content" within the message.
You might actually appreciate it when consulting Pinside in a public place 
(I could not care less and my tilt settings are liberal... but others are entitled to have a different opinion)
Quoted from Whysnow:Still sick and tired of the same worthless losers that are always in here trying to fan the already lit fire. It is not going to help get games built faster and it is not going to help those on preorder as you cheer for the fire.
Have you realized? Nope - they are not worthless losers. They are gifted visionnaires trying to educate and help us, silly pre-buyers.
At least that's what they claim. They might actually believe they are helping us ("us": not only the stupid Skit-B customers, "us" meaning the whole pinheads community. Real altruists, I told ya).
In the end, I need no Rai or Lowpeg or Jared or God-knows-who to know where I stand with Predator. Had I known in 2012 my game would still not be produced in February 2015, I would probably have not signed up. Now, as you said, we "either get a game or an expensive lesson"...
Except it will not only be an expensive lesson, it will also be a **painful** one because it will be associated with "I told you so" comments from our visionnaires, so happy to put salt on our wounds... for our own good.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:I didn't say this was anyone's fault but my own but losing a large sum of money to something that is supposed to be fun and entertaining may be enough to push me out. It's just how I'm feeling right now
Don't worry - we will need a support group, PreOrderDator Anonymous...
Quoted from nephasth:#112 on both. Pretty sure I'll get Alien first...
OK, thought about it, Ready to bet $20 you will get Predator first.
Loser donates that amount to Pinside. Hopefully this year...
Deal? (must be accepted before the "great reveal" announced in 2 weeks-time)
Disclaimers:
- I have no insider's information on Skit-B or Heighway pinball
- I am a blind optimistic who tends to lose bets. 
-... but betting only with nephasth
- When were you #112? Is it you initial production number, or an updated one? You could be #12 now
Easy prey. Take the bait!
Quoted from Whysnow:nope, still the same haters trolling for more reactions...
The technical term for lowpeg is not "Troll" and "Leech" is too kind.
I am struggling to find his definition for my role playing game days. There was a Demon feeding on negative energy and despair, aggravating drama and festering on spiritual wounds (was it D&D? Or another RPG game?). Cannot remember its name though.
Quoted from rai:Preadator has nothing to shoot at except for 2 stand up targets in the middle of the PF, it has no side targets, no targets on either side of the ramps. Basically I have never seen a more stripped game, even The Pin has far more targets and moving toys. IMO.
Why were you on the pre-order list then? 
All (most of ) these features were known since the beginning.
You dropped out of Predator and preferred Iron Man VE, fine ! Who could blame you? At least you have a game to flip!
But no need to start a crusade and try to convince others Predator is a stripped down version of The Pin.
Quoted from blondetall:For all those on the sidelines who are watching while chomping on popcorn and just take a break now and then to snarkily imply and/or tell the ones still in on the project how stupid we are and how we should have seen this all along... please give it a break.
(...)
You could not have said it better. 
Quoted from Hazoff:That was enough to keep me in for now, only time will tell but as always anything other than the Predator theme would have killed this deal. Kevin bought some more time but didn't put my concerns to rest.
Same...
Quoted from Hazoff:I do like that hopefully JJP is now manufacturing the game if that's the company involved.
... Except I would prefer Spooky, even if they produce games at a slower pace!
(but don't get me wrong, any serious manufacturer would do as long as games are made!)
Regarding licensing issues, we should get detailed information from Pinball News "to make sure this story gets told in the most complete and understandable way possible".
Guess I am going to check Pinball News homepage multiple times per day... 
Quoted from captainadam_21:I find it hard to believe a company like that would want their name attached to this circus if something went south.
Well, Stern handled MMr for a start. And WoZ was a circus on its own. And I guess no company in its right mind would sign a subcontracting agreement without checking the licence first.
Quoted from rai:You guys know what $3000 invested in the stock market 9-10 months ago would have grown to (probably $3500+)
I should not complain because I paid $4,750 when 1€ was worth $1.3 to $1.4. Assuming an average *1.35 it means I paid 3518 euros. Now with a 1.05 exchange rate these $4750 translate into...4520 euros (Paypal fees absorb a fair share of this though)
But call me dumb or reckless, I am still in, at least until I read the Pinball News story.
Quoted from rosh:First step is acknowledging you have a problem. Second step is doing something about it. Lets see what the next few weeks show us regarding the latter.
Bottom line, not much anyone can do here but wait and see and look at the "scenery" that gets posted.
That sounds reasonable - assuming those requesting a refund (which I completely understand) get their money back in the meantime.
Quoted from Apollyon:I'm guessing this is JPOP...
LOL. Vonnie D. ?
More seriously...
JJP ?
Stern (which will soon have two assembly lines) ?
DP ?? - Who is the guy who helps with the Licence issues? Roger Sharpe, as for TBL ?
Heighway ???
Quoted from frolic:If there's a shred of anything to the story of Kevin having "a" license (but not the right one), he needs to post whatever documents he has and explain how it was an honest mistake, if there's a hope in hell of saving this and his reputation.
Makes sense but I doubt it is possible. Most of these business agreements are confidential. Fox does not want to disclose the cost of a licence for example (especially if it was inexpensive!).
Quoted from Razorbak86:Frolic is right. Kevin needs to post documents if he expects people to buy this story. No more hiding behind vendors to propagate his BS. Specifics like names, addresses, contractual terms, and licensing fees can be easily redacted.
Agreed.
New saying is "Pinball licensing is Hard"
Quoted from Aurich:I mean, if Kevin comes back and says "okay, best case scenario, Fox will give me a real license. But the only way I can afford it and build everyone's games it they're no longer limited, the art has to be redone from scratch, JJP will build them [at some point, I mean really] and every buyer would have to pay $1500 more" what would you do?
First of all - thanks for trying this. Coordinating a response would make sense. I support the initiative. Having an official spokesman dealing with Kevin may help.
In my case, I would probably not agree with these terms - would prefer a refund, even if partial. To explain why:
- Larger Run: OK - but keep a small incentive for the "lucky" first 250 (the plaque, etc...). Make it "LE" in a modest way.
- Change artwork: let's see (love the Backglass, cabinet is OK, PF could be better).
- JJP: Fine, but I would have preferred Heighway.
- $1500 more = $6,250. Nope. at that price I prefer to buy AMH.
Quoted from Whysnow:That said, I still prefer to be on the side of support and with the weight of someone actually with skin in the game than that of a detractor with no vesting.
I see your point - but it gives an outsider perspective as well. Perhaps Aurich and one or two of our best Moderators would constitute a valid option?
Quoted from Whysnow:of course, but Aurich is FAR from a nonbiased outsider in the matter.
Even better.
Look: if you or me or Ted or any friend of Kevin now says "Everything is fine" no one will ever believe us and it would have zero positive effect on morale.
If someone external and skeptical* (or better, if a group of 3 people including one or two "owners" - who could be a Mod, and Aurich) say "Everything is fine" - or more realistically "something is wrong but this is how we can fix it" I am confident it would have a much stronger positive effect.
* Kaneda is not even an option though...
Kevin's email came too early. If if was really confident it was a matter of days, he should have (re)secured the license first and then communicate.
Naming the manufacturer (having secured the deal) would have helped too.
Still not too late. But time is now playing against the project.
Quoted from Pubaw:Are you talking about UL and CE? I am assuming he needs to get CE for pins leaving the country.
Yep. Except if sent as "prototypes". But from what I know CE is far easier to get than UL. Last time we bought some serious electric stuff at work with CE certification an Health and Safety officer told us CE meant "Chinese Export". He was joking of course... kind of. Tells how confident you can be about this certification.
Quoted from nephasth:Anyone else get this new email about a coming email?
Yep.
My bet on the mystery manufacturer is on Heighway. Seems odd, but let me explain why:
$4750 does not seem much, but with a near 1
exchange rate, this translates into 4700 euros, VAT excluded... 5700 euros with sales tax. Not that distant from the 6300 euros price tag for Full Throttle, which is a widebody with LCD, etc...
Heighway will start shipping FT very soon so they will gain credibility.
The fact that no artwork is released yet for Aliens tells they have to solve some licensing issues as well. They may feel confident that the Predator licensing issues can be addressed.
Heighway has already demonstrated they can produce and ships 250 copies of an entirely different game (Bacardi). Predator is on the same scale.
My feeling is that if Heighway think their production line may be underused between games #1 and #2 or #2 and #3, they will look for creative ways to keep their workforce occupied.
... and that would save some shipping cost for me
Quoted from jayhawkai:PM sent re: tentacle porn.
Quoted from Aurich:I won't share the PM, but they're into some kinky shit in Kansas!
Argh, too bad because at this stage, I'll probably need something strong... and it's a bit early (7am) for a Cognac.
Another 8-hour night and... 500+ posts... Knew it was time to read pinball news. Was of course expecting better. Still can't believe how dumb Kevin has been. No licence at all? Really? I was thinking of "no agreement on music or some images and actors" or something of that kind. But nothing at all???
Quoted from Asylum:As this plays out over the next 24 to 48 hours, I will be contacting an attorney to discuss the best options for everyone to recover our money, including filling criminal charges. Once I have more information I will reach out to other pre-owners in an attempt to get as many of us together as possible to go after him criminally.
Count me in, if international buyers allowed...
Quoted from Sjsilver:Yeah I picked that number because it was the start of the Fibonacci sequence,
That sentence put a smile on my face... which sadly did not last long. The "What if Mr X is whysnow" put another
Quoted from iceman44:He's made the mistake of trying to help and its got me rethinking my decision to even try and help John, being a good guy can easily end up getting you F ed.
Definitely food for thoughts... may be for JPop you should consider forming a small group rather than rely on a single individual
Quoted from iceman44:The best thing that could happen is Kevin distribute whatever's left pro rata IMMEDIATELY!
Agreed.
Quoted from RobT:He clearly implied that he had seen the actual Predator license. I
Definitively one of the reasons why I stayed on board so long.
Regarding refunds, Kevin has to propose to buyers "I can refund % of your deposit right now, if you give up the legal route". He better get an attorney help him prepare this letter. I dont' need an admission of guilt, I just want to have an offer.
Quoted from nephasth:Sorry... Kevin might have taken my money, but HE WILL NEVER TAKE MY HUMOR!!!
I guess I can now officially declare I lost my bet.
Only chance for me now would be to get a draw: neither Pin, Predator or Alien, is delivered to you.
I won't even consider this. I now truly hope that you received your Alien Pin ASAP.
(The bet was he would receive his Predator pin before Alien - A $20 donation to Pinside is at stakes)
Quoted from frolic:The "Predator doesn't have a license" has been a debate for a LOOOONG time.
Unsure about others, but to the very least the March 10 email to Aurich (which I accessed today) would have been an eye-opening to me. It is factual and precise.
I should have PM's Aurich (or others) to get a copy. My mistake. I understand why he decided not to post it here. I also understand why Martin Ayub did not publish it until having enough confirmation.
Quoted from Aurich:For what it's worth I sent a copy to anyone who PM'd me, would have been happy to share with you too.
Thanks.
Anyway, what would I have earned in the process? 13 days?
Last time I sent $ was May 2014... well past Paypal 180-day limit. May check with the CC (Amex) linked to my PP account.
Quoted from Russo121:You have to wonder how the REAL manufacturers feel about all this. If I were them of course I would never comment but you have to wonder what they think. After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?
Sure. At least in my case. I was seriously considering Aliens or P3 - latest is not a preorder though. I like the swappable playfield concept. I could have bought Star Trek as well.
Quoted from MikeS:Any refunds from this point forward will likely come with a legal agreement that prevents people from suing him. Hopefully they'll be able to come up with some type of settlement that is agreeable to all parties. If it goes to the Courts I fear it could be a real long while before any kind of resolution is reached.
Same worry - unsure about the Paypal account, but Kevin cannot even access his account to refund people, settlement is not going to be fast.
PS: Agreeable in English seems very close to "Agréable" in French, which means "enjoyable". Doubt any of us will find it enjoyable.
Quoted from lowepg:I was thinking 75 or 80% back would be considered a a HUGE win for the investors, but 100% seems almost too good to be true?
Same thinking. Or he is actually taking a loan to cover the difference? Only him knows much much money has already been spent on Predator.
Quoted from Aurich:No, no, I've already said that I believe he's spent $70k. I can only see pro-rated refunds. But if PayPal can return money without taking the fees, that's 3% more that you can get back
What you do not consider is the possibility that Kevin will dig in his own savings - or take a loan - to refund people in full. It would not only be elegant, it would also be smart because he may avoid some litigation with clients that way. Guess it may end up costing more than $70k in legal fees. Given the uproar generated by the Pinball news story, I think some may settle for nothing less than 100%...
Quoted from lowepg:Looking at where he lives, Id really be surprised if he had access to that kind of extra cash.... you're talking about more than 2X times the value of his house!
Probably - can't say. May be wishful thinking on my part.
Quoted from Sjsilver:One thing that is bugging me, though.
According to Pinballnews, Kevin stated that the license holders told him to remove their properties form the site when he scrubbed the site between Fall 2013 and Spring 2014, and Pinballnews says that is when the Original C&D came.
The anonymous group claims the C & D didn't come until late 2014, with subsequent requests in early 2015, all ignored.
It seems like a pretty big discrepancy.
Same thing is bugging me - something weird.
Another weird thing is the actual knowledge of the licensing process by Kevin (according to one of the subcontractors - check one of the posts above). Did he get it via EoD only, or was he in contact with someone at Fox??
For what it's worth, it is not that difficult to find a way to contact Bryce Coughlin (I first checked the guy was for real!). I sent a message to him to ask for a confirmation. That was yesterday (Tuesday, May 24... it's already Wednesday morning here!). Waiting for an answer. I will keep you posted if he responds.
Anyone else did the same? Got lucky?
Quoted from hassellcastle:For those that are in denial that it was a scam.
Will your mind change when you don't receive a refund?
Let me give you a different perspective: I currently think it is a scam. But my mind would change if I receive a refund...
(still a scam to Fox, sure. But I would not feel scammed. Semantics)
Curtis_Playfield, you should start your own Blog, I like your style!!
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:All they did was get through to a guy on the phone, right?
BTW, anyone else (besides the Mighty Anonymous) tried to contact Mr Bryce Coughlin, "senior IP counsel for Fox Intellectual Property"? No answer yet to my LinkedIn message.
(to be fair, my professional profile looks great but of dubious interest for Fox Intellectual property lawyers!).
I am surprise no one else tried. When re-reading the Pinball News article, I realized Martin wrote:
But it was strengthened further in January 2015 when we were made privy to a phone call between our anonymous correspondent and the Senior Counsel for IP at Fox Entertainment Group.
I see no mention of a direct confirmation with Mr Bryce Coughlin. Did he contact him himself? Got an answer??
Quoted from gweempose:Do you guys honestly think Martin just took AG's word for it and ran with the story? I find that highly unlikely. He doesn't strike me as the kind of journalist would would risk his reputation by publishing a story without first verifying the facts.
Agreed, but check the way the article is written. I see no mention of a direct conversion or email exchange between him and Mr. Bryce Coughlin.
Quoted from badbilly27:The biggest BS is when people emailed Martin directly and he said he's not in a position to advise. Really?
Knowing this 4 months earlier would not have changed anything in my case but I understand why some people are furious. But I would blame first the AG, not Martin.
Starting the Amex CC legal route tomorrow. I wish refunds have started by then but with the blocked Paypal account I doubt Kevin can, assuming he wishes to. May be an update in Pinball News?
Quoted from lowepg:Everything seems like "relax and wait":
SkitB - endless loop of "waiting a couple weeks for better news"
spfxted - "Just give them 2 weeks for REALLY awesome news"
Anonymous group - just wait for the pinball news story
Pinball news - just wait for Kevins response
Paypal - just wait for vendor to respond.
etc, etc, etc, etc.
Close to the truth. Let me see...
- Martin (Pinball News): wrote an email to get something clarified... No answer
- the famous Fox IP attorney: wrote to him... no answer
- the Anonymous group: did not even try, their gmail seem not active anymore... but they did not try to contact me either
- Kevin: wrote to him... no answer to my last email
To tell the truth, Kevin was the last one to give me a personal response to a question. Speak volumes...
So in the end, this is the 1956 movie that should be licensed now:
the-silent-world-movie-poster-1956.jpgQuoted from HunchbackHodler:It doesn't, that's my point. Why did you bring it up in the first place? Read what you wrote in your first reply: "Low line voltages, super hot environment, constant 4 day play". A stuck ball has nothing to do with those. And to place 2 stand-ups at such a place is a poor design creating a ton of bricked shots as seen in those videos.
What's the point? What are you trying to accomplish? You did not like it? Fine!
Am I constantly trolling the TWD threads because I do not like the game?
Don't piss on my (preordered) corn flakes. Thanks.
Which I will never eat...
Quoted from Half_Life:I respect your opinion; I just disagree with it.
Which I do too (respect and disagree). What I wanted to say is that it is now late to debate whether Predator was a good game or not. It would have made sense in 2013 or 2014. Feedback from people with first hand experience was welcome.
Now it's simply - and sadly - useless.
Hi,
My CC contact needs some details regarding Skit-B transactions. If you have screenshots or pdf of the Kit-B website when the Predator pages were still active, I would appreciate getting a copy.
Also: any evidence that the pin should have been delivered in 2014?
Thanks - email mergny (at) mnhn (dot) (countrycode for france is fr...)
Quoted from cliff_clavin:use the internet archive....it took a few snapshots of the webpage....check here for one....
https://web.archive.org/web/20130221042922/http://skitbpinball.com/
Hope it helps.
C.
It does !
Bring back some memories - Just realized that on the "Crew" page, Kathy Kulek was listed as "Legal and bookkeeping"...
Quoted from Trekkie1978:Not looking to offend anyone, but what reasons did people have for investing in this game?
Theme has appeal to some (me included).
I liked the cabinet and BG.
Animations were fine.
The prototype we saw was complete - rules were far more complete than any Stern game (or WoZ) when released.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:I completely understand doing a pre-order with Jersey Jack, he's been in the business long enough to have full confidence in the game coming out.
Being in the business does not mean being capable of running a factory producing a game.
JPop has been in the business long enough too... Ask MG/RAZA owners about "full confidence".
Those who went for WoZ preorders had guts; it was a bumpy ride that took what... 3 years ?
Quoted from blondetall:If I did have the money (which of course I do not) I wouldnt be sending it to your pockets now.
I would be.
Ben may well be bitter because I guess a number of Predatored peopled would have jumped on AMH. Now it's too late.
(but yeah, Predator bashing is not really needed here... talking about the Pin, not the "manufacturer")
Quoted from TimeBandit:Well, I'm playing at home, feeling very sorry for those caught up in this, and I'm simply recalling the path taken by the French Revolution, and how, once all the aristocrats had been taken care of, the beast that was the mob moved on to executing its own, for its existence was based on beheading, and once the beast had been born and needed to feed its own existence, then the initial cause was forgotten, and its reason detre was to behead, so the targets simply shifted so that it could continue to execute.
Interesting way of putting it. Spot on.
Amex Chargeback update on my side:
Got refunded in part (pending "final ruling" - whatever that means). Got refunded in my own currency, so no bonus due to changing exchange rates.
I paid Skit-B via multiple PP payments ("saving" $ for predator whenever I had some cash left). Had I known earlier (Nov 2014), I would have been refunded an extra $250 due to the 13-month limit imposed for dispute. (Anyone else with an Amex in the US heard the same thing?)
Time to move on for me. I can live with this $250 difference.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Here is your retainer of which the other nine guys who are joining in on the suit have contributed $1,000 each. Go kick his ass sea bass."
Thanks Tiger. Rommy, I am willing to contribute to the suit... No way I can initiate this from France. The more we are the better?
I am not done with Preorders then... After pinball preorders, lawyers preorders!
What's next?
Quoted from TigerLaw:inquiring minds want to know
I do not know if this is sad or not but I do not care anymore.
Quoted from T-800:Secondly, did anyone ever get any official statement in writing from Kevin on where there money actually was going or what it was going for? I mean, the first round of $250 deposits were mostly just sent in via paypal, it's not like paypal issued receipts and I know Kevin did not. It all went into a black hole for all I know with no real documentation on what the money was going towards. Again, "get it in writing," at least all the buyer's would actually have a document supporting their claims.
My case exactly. Nothing but an acknowledgment by email. Silly me.
Quoted from playboywillis:Damn, anyone else get that auto-reply from the Detective?
Shit just got real.
Email sent to the detective - joining the Hunt -; no answer yet.
Quoted from Russo121:He basically says he has asked the FBI for assistance as the number of victims is so large, and that people send him the info which Rommy described earlier.
Kevin, wake up. 
Time is running out... do something, start refunding people for real...or this will turn very ugly very quickly.
I would have forgiven a $250 "donation" but no way I can accept a $3250 (best case) to $4750 loss without a fight... and I was one of your strong supporters. Imagine how others feel about this.
So if you read these lines... Act. Now.
Quoted from examiner:The US Bankruptcy Court is designed to oversee the equitable distribution of assets to multiple creditors. If you guys really think he has a stash of money somewhere, force him in to involuntary bankruptcy. It only takes three of you that are fully paid up. Each of you send him a demand letter, give him 14 days to refund in full.
I Googled demand letters - here is one I found and adapted. Would that work?
Dear Mr. Kulek:
In between Nov 2012 and May 2014 I made several Paypal payments to you to pre-order a pinball machine, for total amount of $4,750. You have informed all of your customers on xx Marc 2015 by email that the project was cancelled and they would all be refunded. Despite this claim, you have not come forward with the money. I have made repeated attempts to get a refund by emails. I am requesting that you refund me in full by xx May 2015, or make specific arrangements to pay the balance.
I will expect a response to this letter no later than xx May 2015. If this matter is not resolved by the time specified above, I reserve the right to commence legal proceedings to recover the debt without further notice to you and this letter may be tendered in court as evidence of your failure to pay.
Quoted from examiner:If he fails to do so, file an involuntary bankruptcy petition. At that point, everybody files a claim as an unsecured creditor. The court will then make sure everybody gets their fair share.
Would that work for a foreigner? How can I Join?
Quoted from Russo121:Anyone have any info for us international buyers on how to start a claim against Kevin whilst in another country?
I personally will jump through any hoops and go through any amount of frustrating legal crap to get a result on this. I'm also sure there are many others that would do so too.
Count me in too.
The legendary British - French alliance
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:Just spoke to Kevin's lawyer, Jon Emaus. We talked for about 15 minutes - I didn't want to take up too much time, as I'm pretty sure time is [our] money.
They are taking calls/emails from those affected,
Would you please PM the attorney's email? Perhaps more reliable than Skit-B...
Quoted from PACMAN:Just talked to the attorney. To be clear, Kevin and his attorney have NOTHING to do with the Paypal refunds showing up. Kevin has NO intention of issuing refunds, he is still intending to build the machines as soon as his attorney navigates through all the legalities which his attorney said will take 30-60 days. His attorney has no idea why a few people have received Paypal notices.
I won't kill the messenger, but that's depressing news...
Quoted from KingDaddy:Having anger towards someone who lied to you and stole money from you is not uncalled for. It's actually healthy to express it, whether you're Amish or not.
Understood. We get it - or 99.9% of us do. I have my fantasies too on how to deal with KK.
I guess the moderation is for the sick 0.1% who will take your post seriously
"If this is the general consensus, I should do it! They will actually thank me for that!"
Such a person may exist but is probably not Amish...
Quoted from KeithinMI:I am just checking in. I believe I have contacted back each and every one of you that has either called me or sent a 'feedback form' from my law office website.
Even the Frenchs?
PM sent - emailed you on June 26 - no answer.
Quoted from NoahFentz:And I believed Skit B had the license. We'll all have a turn being mistaken. Such is life.
And your posts made customers like me believe there was a license - therefore inciting us to stay on board, missing the Paypal 180-day dispute limit, and losing the full $4750. Such is life.
Quoted from NoahFentz:Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.
Quoted from Pinballs:I paid and signed up with Keith today. Another legal suit for Kevin Coolaid to deal with
I also emailed Kevin several times BEFORE I filed the suit, to give him a last chance to pay up and avoid all this hassle.
I am in too - the famous Anglo-French alliance
Did not even bother to try to recontact Kevin -have you tried his lawyer?
Quoted from KeithinMI:Bump if you haven't contacted me yet:
Just to bring it back to top of mind:
I am a practicing lawyer in Michigan and would be happy to give a free phone consult with any Predator "investor" about their rights/remedies, and of course happy to represent them to assist in recovery of their monies.
I am currently representing Clients in the matter and have had contact with Mr. Kulek's lawyer, and am quite aware of what is going on.
http://www.nathanson-law.com
248-436-4833 x 111
Keith Nathanson
Free bump.
For those hesitating, I suggest to contact Keith Nathanson. I asked him a couple of questions (before enrolling) he answered quickly.
My first lawsuit in a different country...
Quoted from PinChili:So yes, back on topic, what was the latest video of Predator gameplay? I'm curious what the state of the code was prior to this whole mess blowing up? Is there video of all of the modes out there? Was there a wizard mode?
There was a good video. Game was basically complete. Modes were cool. It would have been a good game. Not an outstanding game, but a good one. Rather simple with risky shots (remember these two stand-up targets?) but enjoyable.
Quoted from PinChili:I think there was at least video of the blacklight effect working, no?
Kind of. Nothing that was mind-blowing.
Too bad for me: I did not care. It was not a Go / No Go test. Gameplay was, it passed that test.
Assuming the blacklight effect was important to me, I would have saved $4,750. 
Quoted from PinRebel:There is nothing illegal about him owning a prototype game that never went into being manufactured. Nothing. Your anger should only be directed at that Kevin guy.
If you do not understand the anger, you are seriously misguided too.
Quoted from dgoett:keith has another client.
Welcome aboard. We will tell you more about the Hazing, the secret rituals, the opening ceremony, and the mandatory donation to the "save jlm33 from foreclosure" charity organization.
I kid, I kid...
Quoted from Mitch:Oh and the only people who got refunds were through their credit card. He hasn't sent any to anybody
Technically untrue if no time period specified: some people got refunds from Kevin in 2014 (sometimes after repetitive requests or threats to sue).
I doubt many (if any) received these refunds after the licence-gate. I did receive an email from Kevin on March 24, 2015 stating:
"To the many of you who have continued to support us and prefer to receive your game, I'm sorry to say that this is the end of the road and you, too, will be receiving a refund instead of a machine."
I am still waiting for these refunds... Guess I am not alone.
Quoted from KeithinMI:I must comment.
Today, based upon things I have reviewed today (in my office -- not on Pinside, and certainly not as an affront to anyone on Pinside), I have had to redefine in my small little noggin', the definition of stupidity. I am actually beside myself and have had to look at what I received a few times, thinking that maybe I slipped into a really bad episode of the Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits.
Now I am interested...
Darwin Awards caliber?
Quoted from Nibbles:Doubtful since his lawyer is likely feeding him total bullshit to string him along and milk as much out of him as he can...
Ain't a lawyer duty is to have his client's best interest in mind?
I am naive, I know.
Quoted from rosh:Best case is that someone else will get the legit license, but that will do nothing for those who got screwed by kevin.
Whatever the Manufacturer would be, I would wait a bit before announcing this game. Still painful to some. I have more or less found atonement - unsure how I would react if a see a (Insert Brand Name Here) Predator pin announced.
For those who received an email from Keith very recently, can you PM me what you think of it?
(sorry for being cryptic - legal matter ongoing)
I am not giving up - bankruptcy or not (just received my Chapter 7 notification by regular mail today. A little bit late to the party, but I am far away. He really thinks he can escape that easily?)
Quoted from TigerLaw:If he doesn't get the discharge the judgement will haunt him a long time as he will have no escape. Garnished wages. Seized income tax returns. Seized insurance Receipts in some circumstances. Etc.
This is exactly why I am staying on board. My main idea is to prevent him from escaping this without damage.
Quoted from HappyDayz:On one hand it's admirable that you have the energy to pursue this so that those who helped to recklessly perpetuate the deception are held accountable for the end result. On the other hand, it seems clear there is no chance of you ever getting real satisfaction as they really have no money left and very few assets (as evidenced by Kevin selling everything he had just to pay a lawyer.) No judge will make them sell their very modest home. No law enforcement seems interested in pursuing criminal charges. Look around, it is the end and it is indeed bitter for everyone. Sucks.
Disclaimer: spoken as the average Joe Pinsider screwed by Kevin, not as a Moderator.
Are you privy to Kevin Kulek's financial situation?
I am not talking in behalf of all Skit-B victims, but as far as I am concerned I am past money recollection. I asked, I begged, I mourned... If I can get some of my $4,750 back, fine. That would be welcome for sure. But my prime objective is now to make sure he does not escape from this mess. So no, it is *not* the end.
Kevin, beware. I am not rich, but I can afford a lawyer. Even if I have to give up my Rob Zombie spot to do so.
Quoted from ZNET:The Predator preorder customers are currently in a much different (but arguably better position) than the Zidware preorder customers.
Agreed. JPop was better at covering his tracks and hiding behind a company. Also better at fast-talking investors: I doubt Pintasia or AP would have fallen for Kevin.
My feeling is that JPop will probably escape the legal system, while Kevin won't.
Quoted from no-extra-balls:Only time will tell but I am rooting for pick up on Dec 24.
Make it happen and I will indulge myself with a bottle of XO Cognac and a fine cigar... 
Quoted from Taxman:Because you have a conscience.
... and you are not dumb enough to think you can get away with everything. Or are willing to take the risk.
Kevin had every chance to make it right. He probably read this thread, and should have known people would not give up.
And yet he decided to keep the money.
Huge mistake.
Some people, myself included, won't let it go.
With or without the chance to get some money back - this is not the point anymore.
Question of Principle.
Quoted from flynnibus:Is a gofundme appropriate for this type of legal action?
$10 x a few hundred pinheads is not chump change. I know the first court recording was worth wayyyy more than $10 in entertainment value
That would be fun, but I am wondering if it would be legal? Keith?
(and to tell the truth, it *is* way more entertaining than $10... but not (yet) at $4,750 level entertainment as in my case !)
Quoted from Whysnow:I dont think you understand the motivation of many of us at this stage.
Agreed.
Quoted from Pinballs:But Nemo arrived a couple of days ago (#2/30), and it's re-ignited my love of this hobby, even if my trust has gone.
Cool. My #1/30 is no longer alone !! 
Antonio has recently improved the ruleset. There is still much to do, but we do have the most beautiful pin ever ! 
(but we should move all further discussion about this game in a relevant thread - pictures welcome! Yours come with gold ramps, right?)
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Yeah, really, geez guys, can you do your gloating elsewhere? You were lucky to get in on a boutique pin that is actually being made, let's not pour salt in the wound of the Skit-B victims.
Both Nemo #1 and #2 clients were Skit-B "customers"... paid in full in my case.
Quoted from johngravenews:It seemed really it or miss who they were posted out to. Guess that should have been a warning sign.
Oh yeah! This among others signs.
Like not being capable of knowing how much money I already "invested" when asking everyone for $.
And so on...
I can blame others... but I blame myself first.
Quoted from NinJaBooT:Are these people really that stupid?
Wait a minute, I sent kevin 4500? Might as well ad me to the list of idiots!
Wait a minute!? You got a discount? 
Because I paid $4750!
(add me to the list too... $250 higher on the list )
Quoted from PinSinner:Does anyone know who holds the current record for down votes on Pinside? If so, I would love to know the magic number. guyincognito might be attempting a new world record.
I don't have the exact figure in mind, but he is far from the record.
I did not downvote guyincognito... although I lost $4,750 in the Predator debacle.
Kevin affected by the flood? I won't cry over it.
5 kids losing everything? Now I feel sorry for them. My lust for vendetta does not go that far. Call me soft-hearted if you want.
Quoted from examiner:it clearly shows that two ill-informed people conspired to circumvent a law that didn't apply to them anyway.
Love it.
I have "donated" $4750 to one of these Nobel-Prize caliber pinball "manufacturers"...
Learning from mistakes I guess.
Having lost over $5k in the Predator debacle (game paid in full + donation to Kevin to attend Pinball expo (*) + legal fees), I must confess I am past hope (to recoup some money) and now past revenge (not even interested anymore in it).
The more we learn, the more depressed I feel. The flood, the $150 RV, and now $27/month for child support for 5 kids? And he cannot / would not even pay that?
I guess I should move on and forget about it.
(*) when acting as a fool, I don't do it halfway...
Quoted from Yoko2una:For those unaffected, sure. For those who got screwed in all this, that machine in an arcade may feel like a dick punch.
Well - I can't speak for all buyers but I have my "Screwed_by_Kevin" badge (a $4,750 one...) so I can say how I feel.
I don't mind seeing this game on route... I just wish it were closer! Would love to play a few games one day.
Quoted from frolic:Wasn’t there some discussion in this thread a while back about a tax write down for these losses? I’m wondering after all these years what’s the point keeping the anger going.
Kevin obviously should never be welcomed back but life‘s too short to hang on to anger like this for so long.
I’m taking my own medicine and gave up on Jpop. I didn’t even bother with the Deeproot paperwork. These are old debts and I’ll be a lot happier just moving on.
The lessons I learned from all this will protect me from much bigger mistakes with my money in the future.
My thoughts exactly (although I have been scammed by Kevin, not JPop). At this stage I would not mind seeing one Predator game exhibited in a Museum. I don't care anymore. May be I'd buy later a Predator game from a real manufacturer if they make one (preferentially with a different layout).
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Villejuif
it almost seems a bargain...
