(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

6 years ago

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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (4 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (4 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (4 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (4 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (4 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (4 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (4 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#91 6 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

Cool. Two months to the day tomorrow. November is pretty well into the fall, no? That means anyday now.

Quoted from Jared:

That could be absolutely awesome if it's true.

I'll give you that: you are a very subtle Troll, but a Troll nonetheless...

#99 6 years ago
Quoted from PaulCoff:

Wasn't there a pod cast interview with Kevin talking about how he got the license from fox?

There was. From what I remembered, he mentioned there was a phone number at the back of the Predator DVD box... he simply called that number. (I am not making this up, right?)

3 weeks later
#353 6 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Well, I'm sticking it out with Skitb. If I get my PRED, awesome. Risk and reward, but also cause and effect could go either way.

Quoted from sensfreak:

I am sticking with Skit-B as well.

Quoted from Hazoff:

Not much, but there's no way I could give up my spot.

Quoted from Mitch:

Yup im not giving mine up ether. Ill ride it out till the end.

Joining the club: I am sticking with Skit-B too...

1 month later
#586 6 years ago
Quoted from BigPhil:

Update email received and the website has been changed.....

Got it too, good to see our biweekly-ish update!

2 weeks later
#692 6 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:


More like tri-weekly-ish but we got it !

2 weeks later
#790 6 years ago
Quoted from MMuller:

I'm in on Predator, but does anyone know the price on the second one?

I believe there was an interview with Kevin addressing that. He did not gave an exact figure but something in the $5k range? Am I making this up?

1 week later
#888 6 years ago
Quoted from johngravenews:

OK, I get the frustration but how many of the more vocal posters actually are still in the fully paid up camp?


Quoted from johngravenews:

I've always known that this was a risk and I suspect that most of the people who actually paid weighed up this risk at the time.


Quoted from johngravenews:

The most basic Pro Stern is $2500 more than that

Well, don't forget you will have to pay VAT and transport on Predator as well. I doubt the final difference will be that large!

#889 6 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

To make game #2 a sold out hit, Kevin would need to employ the exact same level of hype, interest, enthusiasm and excitement that he did for Predator: which is now impossible.

There are things I would agree with in this post, others I would not. Hard to give a thumb up and down at the same time.

Just to comment on potential game #2. Delivering game #1 will help and a lot a people will forgive Skit-B shortcomings when Predator hits home. I will.

But communications and delays are not the only problems they will be facing with game #2. Theme and artwork are. I tend to agree with this:

Quoted from fosaisu:

But if they had the Aliens license and were doing a limited run (say 200 machines) I bet they could still generate some solid pre-order business because people would be concerned about the scarcity of a "must have" theme.

I would not conclude Skit-B will or will not be able to release a second game even if hardly any of us would put a deposit on EoD right now. Their business model might have to change. Showing a potential investor you are capable of producing a game may help raising money.

#946 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Am I allowed to post here if I gave a donation?

Give us an "Aurich's style" Hot babes vs Alien Zombies from Outer Space and you are allowed to post

#951 6 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

"Dino Ridin' DD Beach Babes VS The Nazi Zombie Army of Doom"

We kind of miss the Ben Heck's Zombies from the good old BHZA days... so what about
Dino Ridin' DD Beach Babes VS Ben Heck's Zombie Army of Doom ?

Post edited by jlm33: hopefully no one will mind the "Nazi" to BH change !

#990 6 years ago
Quoted from Plungemaster:

Which moran is tilting those lovely ladies all over the forum????

Tilting is actually useful. This is not a thumb down nor a moral judgment - just a way to warn people there is "sensitive content" within the message.

You might actually appreciate it when consulting Pinside in a public place
(I could not care less and my tilt settings are liberal... but others are entitled to have a different opinion)

1 week later
#1119 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Still sick and tired of the same worthless losers that are always in here trying to fan the already lit fire. It is not going to help get games built faster and it is not going to help those on preorder as you cheer for the fire.

Have you realized? Nope - they are not worthless losers. They are gifted visionnaires trying to educate and help us, silly pre-buyers.

At least that's what they claim. They might actually believe they are helping us ("us": not only the stupid Skit-B customers, "us" meaning the whole pinheads community. Real altruists, I told ya).

In the end, I need no Rai or Lowpeg or Jared or God-knows-who to know where I stand with Predator. Had I known in 2012 my game would still not be produced in February 2015, I would probably have not signed up. Now, as you said, we "either get a game or an expensive lesson"...

Except it will not only be an expensive lesson, it will also be a **painful** one because it will be associated with "I told you so" comments from our visionnaires, so happy to put salt on our wounds... for our own good.

#1164 6 years ago
Quoted from johngravenews:

Maybe I should just start viewing the T-shirt I got as a designer item

At least you got the T-shirt

#1249 6 years ago

I told ya, Hilton: expensive and **painful**

#1389 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I think its disingenuous to pull that ONE quote from the email without sharing the bulk of it.

Can't Tiger post both emails in the locked Predator thread - assuming he has Kevin's authorization?

#1391 6 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I didn't say this was anyone's fault but my own but losing a large sum of money to something that is supposed to be fun and entertaining may be enough to push me out. It's just how I'm feeling right now

Don't worry - we will need a support group, PreOrderDator Anonymous...

#1542 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

#112 on both. Pretty sure I'll get Alien first...

Well, Aliens is Heighway's second game, and we are still waiting for the first game Full Throttle leaving the assembly line.

#1543 6 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

It doesn't have to be this way, but apparently communicating about making pinball machines is hard.

You made me laugh!

#1544 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

#112 on both. Pretty sure I'll get Alien first...

OK, thought about it, Ready to bet $20 you will get Predator first.
Loser donates that amount to Pinside. Hopefully this year...

Deal? (must be accepted before the "great reveal" announced in 2 weeks-time)

- I have no insider's information on Skit-B or Heighway pinball
- I am a blind optimistic who tends to lose bets.
-... but betting only with nephasth
- When were you #112? Is it you initial production number, or an updated one? You could be #12 now

Easy prey. Take the bait!

#1546 6 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

who wants to lay down some bets about what's going to happen in 2 weeks ?

A Predator Hitler video is released!

#1557 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

I'll take that bet!

Deal !

Guess that's me who will make Pinside $20 richer soon

#1567 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Predator before Alien? Really?

I know I know...

Sounds suicidal but I should donate Pinside once in while anyway

#1668 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

nope, still the same haters trolling for more reactions...

The technical term for lowpeg is not "Troll" and "Leech" is too kind.

I am struggling to find his definition for my role playing game days. There was a Demon feeding on negative energy and despair, aggravating drama and festering on spiritual wounds (was it D&D? Or another RPG game?). Cannot remember its name though.

#1737 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Preadator has nothing to shoot at except for 2 stand up targets in the middle of the PF, it has no side targets, no targets on either side of the ramps. Basically I have never seen a more stripped game, even The Pin has far more targets and moving toys. IMO.

Why were you on the pre-order list then?
All (most of ) these features were known since the beginning.
You dropped out of Predator and preferred Iron Man VE, fine ! Who could blame you? At least you have a game to flip!
But no need to start a crusade and try to convince others Predator is a stripped down version of The Pin.

#1929 6 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

You've ridden worse than a horse? Sheep?

Camel. True. Fun for 5'. Then...

#1986 6 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

At least lately the visuals have been a nice break and a reason to click on the thread again.

The whining is just an excuse. We are all here for the "visuals"

#2023 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

For all those on the sidelines who are watching while chomping on popcorn and just take a break now and then to snarkily imply and/or tell the ones still in on the project how stupid we are and how we should have seen this all along... please give it a break.

You could not have said it better.

#2038 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

So I'll just reitterate that, while I think she is gorgeous, blondes rule.

Any picture to support that bold claim?

#2047 6 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I absolutely do not get that above vibe from most of the posts you quoted.

It seems the 20 pinsiders that thumbed up her post got that above vibe as well.

Disclaimer: I am of the 20.

#2289 6 years ago
Quoted from GravitaR:

Great, another pside thread turned to off topic and sexism banter.

Sure. Talking about wedding anniversary celebration is sexism banter
24th wedding anniversary for me.

#2296 6 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Oh yeah, and do some of you REALLY expect timely blow us away update next week? Really??

"Expect" is a word I don't use anymore in that thread...

#2320 6 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

If this happens then I can see aftermarket stickers being distributed by someone in the comunity to add a Preditor feel back into the game.

Here is a close one.

#2425 6 years ago

Patience is a virtue. News will come. And they will be good
(call it self-persuasion or blind faith if you wish)

#2538 6 years ago
Quoted from Hazoff:

That was enough to keep me in for now, only time will tell but as always anything other than the Predator theme would have killed this deal. Kevin bought some more time but didn't put my concerns to rest.


Quoted from Hazoff:

I do like that hopefully JJP is now manufacturing the game if that's the company involved.

... Except I would prefer Spooky, even if they produce games at a slower pace!

(but don't get me wrong, any serious manufacturer would do as long as games are made!)

#2541 6 years ago

Regarding licensing issues, we should get detailed information from Pinball News "to make sure this story gets told in the most complete and understandable way possible".

Guess I am going to check Pinball News homepage multiple times per day...

Quoted from captainadam_21:

I find it hard to believe a company like that would want their name attached to this circus if something went south.

Well, Stern handled MMr for a start. And WoZ was a circus on its own. And I guess no company in its right mind would sign a subcontracting agreement without checking the licence first.

#2569 6 years ago
Quoted from rai:

You guys know what $3000 invested in the stock market 9-10 months ago would have grown to (probably $3500+)

I should not complain because I paid $4,750 when 1€ was worth $1.3 to $1.4. Assuming an average *1.35 it means I paid 3518 euros. Now with a 1.05 exchange rate these $4750 translate into...4520 euros (Paypal fees absorb a fair share of this though)

But call me dumb or reckless, I am still in, at least until I read the Pinball News story.

#2570 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

So let me summarize:

So let me summarize: you are a Troll. Happy to use the ignore button.

#2589 6 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

First step is acknowledging you have a problem. Second step is doing something about it. Lets see what the next few weeks show us regarding the latter.
Bottom line, not much anyone can do here but wait and see and look at the "scenery" that gets posted.

That sounds reasonable - assuming those requesting a refund (which I completely understand) get their money back in the meantime.

#2595 6 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

I'm guessing this is JPOP...

LOL. Vonnie D. ?

More seriously...
Stern (which will soon have two assembly lines) ?
DP ?? - Who is the guy who helps with the Licence issues? Roger Sharpe, as for TBL ?
Heighway ???

#2611 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

If there's a shred of anything to the story of Kevin having "a" license (but not the right one), he needs to post whatever documents he has and explain how it was an honest mistake, if there's a hope in hell of saving this and his reputation.

Makes sense but I doubt it is possible. Most of these business agreements are confidential. Fox does not want to disclose the cost of a licence for example (especially if it was inexpensive!).

#2612 6 years ago

Some bug with the "Edit" calendar...?

#2614 6 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Frolic is right. Kevin needs to post documents if he expects people to buy this story. No more hiding behind vendors to propagate his BS. Specifics like names, addresses, contractual terms, and licensing fees can be easily redacted.


New saying is "Pinball licensing is Hard"

#2616 6 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

I dont see why the paperwork matters..

The paperwork matters because people want to know if he was in good faith, at least initially.

#2783 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I mean, if Kevin comes back and says "okay, best case scenario, Fox will give me a real license. But the only way I can afford it and build everyone's games it they're no longer limited, the art has to be redone from scratch, JJP will build them [at some point, I mean really] and every buyer would have to pay $1500 more" what would you do?

First of all - thanks for trying this. Coordinating a response would make sense. I support the initiative. Having an official spokesman dealing with Kevin may help.

In my case, I would probably not agree with these terms - would prefer a refund, even if partial. To explain why:
- Larger Run: OK - but keep a small incentive for the "lucky" first 250 (the plaque, etc...). Make it "LE" in a modest way.
- Change artwork: let's see (love the Backglass, cabinet is OK, PF could be better).
- JJP: Fine, but I would have preferred Heighway.
- $1500 more = $6,250. Nope. at that price I prefer to buy AMH.

#2810 6 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I do hope they are able to get them produced and out to paid customers. It does look like a very cool machine. Good luck to all involved!

Thanks for the kind words!

#2816 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That said, I still prefer to be on the side of support and with the weight of someone actually with skin in the game than that of a detractor with no vesting.

I see your point - but it gives an outsider perspective as well. Perhaps Aurich and one or two of our best Moderators would constitute a valid option?

#2881 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

of course, but Aurich is FAR from a nonbiased outsider in the matter.

Even better.

Look: if you or me or Ted or any friend of Kevin now says "Everything is fine" no one will ever believe us and it would have zero positive effect on morale.

If someone external and skeptical* (or better, if a group of 3 people including one or two "owners" - who could be a Mod, and Aurich) say "Everything is fine" - or more realistically "something is wrong but this is how we can fix it" I am confident it would have a much stronger positive effect.

* Kaneda is not even an option though...

#2884 6 years ago

"This post was moderated and edited for Inflammatory posting 39 minutes ago. A thread eject was issued."

Best news in this thread for a long time. Enjoying the moment.

#2940 6 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

- $1500 more = $6,250. Nope. at that price I prefer to buy AMH.

(quoting myself - not exactly the sign of a healthy mind... )

Well, now that Whoa Nellie is priced at $6,499 it almost seems a bargain...

#2953 6 years ago

Kevin's email came too early. If if was really confident it was a matter of days, he should have (re)secured the license first and then communicate.
Naming the manufacturer (having secured the deal) would have helped too.

Still not too late. But time is now playing against the project.

#2964 6 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

sounds like anyone looking to talk to Ted could PM him.

I did. I exchanged a couple of PM with him. What he wrote was useful to me.
Thanks Ted !

#2973 6 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

He said it himself originally!

What did he say exactly?
There might be a difference between a statement like "I am not here to milk money out of hobbyists" and Skit-B is a nonprofit organization.

#2985 6 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I will send you $10 and 2 cigars, as promised!

I want mine too

#2993 6 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I agree!!....except for the basketball...

Want to play ball?

#3183 6 years ago
Quoted from navajas:

Hahahaha! God damn.
I love vid.

Good to see you back!

#3198 6 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Are you talking about UL and CE? I am assuming he needs to get CE for pins leaving the country.

Yep. Except if sent as "prototypes". But from what I know CE is far easier to get than UL. Last time we bought some serious electric stuff at work with CE certification an Health and Safety officer told us CE meant "Chinese Export". He was joking of course... kind of. Tells how confident you can be about this certification.

Quoted from nephasth:

Anyone else get this new email about a coming email?


#3525 6 years ago

8 hours of sleep.
In the meantime: Tons of new posts, a new thread (do we really need another one?) and no news

#3539 6 years ago

My bet on the mystery manufacturer is on Heighway. Seems odd, but let me explain why:

$4750 does not seem much, but with a near 1 exchange rate, this translates into 4700 euros, VAT excluded... 5700 euros with sales tax. Not that distant from the 6300 euros price tag for Full Throttle, which is a widebody with LCD, etc...

Heighway will start shipping FT very soon so they will gain credibility.

The fact that no artwork is released yet for Aliens tells they have to solve some licensing issues as well. They may feel confident that the Predator licensing issues can be addressed.

Heighway has already demonstrated they can produce and ships 250 copies of an entirely different game (Bacardi). Predator is on the same scale.

My feeling is that if Heighway think their production line may be underused between games #1 and #2 or #2 and #3, they will look for creative ways to keep their workforce occupied.

... and that would save some shipping cost for me

#3917 6 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

PM sent re: tentacle porn.

Quoted from Aurich:

I won't share the PM, but they're into some kinky shit in Kansas!

Argh, too bad because at this stage, I'll probably need something strong... and it's a bit early (7am) for a Cognac.

#4053 6 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

I'll wait for Martin's article, then see what happens.


#4648 6 years ago

Another 8-hour night and... 500+ posts... Knew it was time to read pinball news. Was of course expecting better. Still can't believe how dumb Kevin has been. No licence at all? Really? I was thinking of "no agreement on music or some images and actors" or something of that kind. But nothing at all???

Quoted from Asylum:

As this plays out over the next 24 to 48 hours, I will be contacting an attorney to discuss the best options for everyone to recover our money, including filling criminal charges. Once I have more information I will reach out to other pre-owners in an attempt to get as many of us together as possible to go after him criminally.

Count me in, if international buyers allowed...

Quoted from Sjsilver:

Yeah I picked that number because it was the start of the Fibonacci sequence,

That sentence put a smile on my face... which sadly did not last long. The "What if Mr X is whysnow" put another

Quoted from iceman44:

He's made the mistake of trying to help and its got me rethinking my decision to even try and help John, being a good guy can easily end up getting you F ed.

Definitely food for thoughts... may be for JPop you should consider forming a small group rather than rely on a single individual

Quoted from iceman44:

The best thing that could happen is Kevin distribute whatever's left pro rata IMMEDIATELY!


Quoted from RobT:

He clearly implied that he had seen the actual Predator license. I

Definitively one of the reasons why I stayed on board so long.

#4650 6 years ago

Regarding refunds, Kevin has to propose to buyers "I can refund % of your deposit right now, if you give up the legal route". He better get an attorney help him prepare this letter. I dont' need an admission of guilt, I just want to have an offer.

#4659 6 years ago

Time to start a "Predator: Mission aborted" thread.

#4672 6 years ago
Quoted from Shapeshifter:

Pot of money divided by 200.

hum... given that people paid either $250, $3000 or $4750...

#4722 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Sorry... Kevin might have taken my money, but HE WILL NEVER TAKE MY HUMOR!!!

I guess I can now officially declare I lost my bet.
Only chance for me now would be to get a draw: neither Pin, Predator or Alien, is delivered to you.
I won't even consider this. I now truly hope that you received your Alien Pin ASAP.

(The bet was he would receive his Predator pin before Alien - A $20 donation to Pinside is at stakes)

#4861 6 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

The "Predator doesn't have a license" has been a debate for a LOOOONG time.

Unsure about others, but to the very least the March 10 email to Aurich (which I accessed today) would have been an eye-opening to me. It is factual and precise.

I should have PM's Aurich (or others) to get a copy. My mistake. I understand why he decided not to post it here. I also understand why Martin Ayub did not publish it until having enough confirmation.

#4879 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

For what it's worth I sent a copy to anyone who PM'd me, would have been happy to share with you too.

Anyway, what would I have earned in the process? 13 days?
Last time I sent $ was May 2014... well past Paypal 180-day limit. May check with the CC (Amex) linked to my PP account.

#4886 6 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

They did tell me that Skit-B's PayPal account was shut down some time ago. That explains why we haven't been able to get refunds over the last few months.


#4909 6 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

You have to wonder how the REAL manufacturers feel about all this. If I were them of course I would never comment but you have to wonder what they think. After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?

Sure. At least in my case. I was seriously considering Aliens or P3 - latest is not a preorder though. I like the swappable playfield concept. I could have bought Star Trek as well.

#4931 6 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Any refunds from this point forward will likely come with a legal agreement that prevents people from suing him. Hopefully they'll be able to come up with some type of settlement that is agreeable to all parties. If it goes to the Courts I fear it could be a real long while before any kind of resolution is reached.

Same worry - unsure about the Paypal account, but Kevin cannot even access his account to refund people, settlement is not going to be fast.

PS: Agreeable in English seems very close to "Agréable" in French, which means "enjoyable". Doubt any of us will find it enjoyable.

#4981 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I was thinking 75 or 80% back would be considered a a HUGE win for the investors, but 100% seems almost too good to be true?

Same thinking. Or he is actually taking a loan to cover the difference? Only him knows much much money has already been spent on Predator.

#5143 6 years ago
Quoted from markmon:

I don't see evidence this was a scam. I've played the game. It actually exists. There are better and more profitable ways to scam people out of money than making a real pinball machine.


#5145 6 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Mate, if I get my money back i'll get my own tits out and offer free motorboats to all

Quoted for posterity

#5382 6 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

No, no, I've already said that I believe he's spent $70k. I can only see pro-rated refunds. But if PayPal can return money without taking the fees, that's 3% more that you can get back

What you do not consider is the possibility that Kevin will dig in his own savings - or take a loan - to refund people in full. It would not only be elegant, it would also be smart because he may avoid some litigation with clients that way. Guess it may end up costing more than $70k in legal fees. Given the uproar generated by the Pinball news story, I think some may settle for nothing less than 100%...

#5384 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Looking at where he lives, Id really be surprised if he had access to that kind of extra cash.... you're talking about more than 2X times the value of his house!

Probably - can't say. May be wishful thinking on my part.

#5529 6 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

One thing that is bugging me, though.
According to Pinballnews, Kevin stated that the license holders told him to remove their properties form the site when he scrubbed the site between Fall 2013 and Spring 2014, and Pinballnews says that is when the Original C&D came.
The anonymous group claims the C & D didn't come until late 2014, with subsequent requests in early 2015, all ignored.
It seems like a pretty big discrepancy.

Same thing is bugging me - something weird.

Another weird thing is the actual knowledge of the licensing process by Kevin (according to one of the subcontractors - check one of the posts above). Did he get it via EoD only, or was he in contact with someone at Fox??

#5549 6 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

I believe you are referencing my post, I would certainly not call myself a 'subcontractor'

Thanks for the clarification - with 1000 posts / day I am losing track.

#5833 6 years ago

For what it's worth, it is not that difficult to find a way to contact Bryce Coughlin (I first checked the guy was for real!). I sent a message to him to ask for a confirmation. That was yesterday (Tuesday, May 24... it's already Wednesday morning here!). Waiting for an answer. I will keep you posted if he responds.

Anyone else did the same? Got lucky?

#5835 6 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

For those that are in denial that it was a scam.
Will your mind change when you don't receive a refund?

Let me give you a different perspective: I currently think it is a scam. But my mind would change if I receive a refund...

(still a scam to Fox, sure. But I would not feel scammed. Semantics)

#5865 6 years ago

Curtis_Playfield, you should start your own Blog, I like your style!!

Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

All they did was get through to a guy on the phone, right?

BTW, anyone else (besides the Mighty Anonymous) tried to contact Mr Bryce Coughlin, "senior IP counsel for Fox Intellectual Property"? No answer yet to my LinkedIn message.
(to be fair, my professional profile looks great but of dubious interest for Fox Intellectual property lawyers!).

I am surprise no one else tried. When re-reading the Pinball News article, I realized Martin wrote:

But it was strengthened further in January 2015 when we were made privy to a phone call between our anonymous correspondent and the Senior Counsel for IP at Fox Entertainment Group.

I see no mention of a direct confirmation with Mr Bryce Coughlin. Did he contact him himself? Got an answer??

#5876 6 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

I sincerely hope that no one is trying to contact Fox at this point!

I sincerely hope Martin Ayub (Pinball News) tried to contact Fox (Bryce) himself before publishing the story.

#5894 6 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Do you guys honestly think Martin just took AG's word for it and ran with the story? I find that highly unlikely. He doesn't strike me as the kind of journalist would would risk his reputation by publishing a story without first verifying the facts.

Agreed, but check the way the article is written. I see no mention of a direct conversion or email exchange between him and Mr. Bryce Coughlin.

#5954 6 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Given his track record, he's probably furiously Googling and catching up on Law & Order episodes in order to represent himself.

Better call Saul is another option.

#6068 6 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

The biggest BS is when people emailed Martin directly and he said he's not in a position to advise. Really?

Knowing this 4 months earlier would not have changed anything in my case but I understand why some people are furious. But I would blame first the AG, not Martin.

Starting the Amex CC legal route tomorrow. I wish refunds have started by then but with the blocked Paypal account I doubt Kevin can, assuming he wishes to. May be an update in Pinball News?

#6192 6 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Everything seems like "relax and wait":
SkitB - endless loop of "waiting a couple weeks for better news"
spfxted - "Just give them 2 weeks for REALLY awesome news"
Anonymous group - just wait for the pinball news story
Pinball news - just wait for Kevins response
Paypal - just wait for vendor to respond.
etc, etc, etc, etc.

Close to the truth. Let me see...

- Martin (Pinball News): wrote an email to get something clarified... No answer
- the famous Fox IP attorney: wrote to him... no answer
- the Anonymous group: did not even try, their gmail seem not active anymore... but they did not try to contact me either
- Kevin: wrote to him... no answer to my last email

To tell the truth, Kevin was the last one to give me a personal response to a question. Speak volumes...

So in the end, this is the 1956 movie that should be licensed now:

#6196 6 years ago
Quoted from oopsallberrys:

Paypal has closed my case and filed in my favor. I got my "refund" of 4500 . Good luck to everyone else!

Awesome!! When was your latest / earlier payment? Can you PM some details?

#6286 6 years ago
Quoted from HunchbackHodler:

It doesn't, that's my point. Why did you bring it up in the first place? Read what you wrote in your first reply: "Low line voltages, super hot environment, constant 4 day play". A stuck ball has nothing to do with those. And to place 2 stand-ups at such a place is a poor design creating a ton of bricked shots as seen in those videos.

What's the point? What are you trying to accomplish? You did not like it? Fine!
Am I constantly trolling the TWD threads because I do not like the game?

Don't piss on my (preordered) corn flakes. Thanks.
Which I will never eat...

#6301 6 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

I respect your opinion; I just disagree with it.

Which I do too (respect and disagree). What I wanted to say is that it is now late to debate whether Predator was a good game or not. It would have made sense in 2013 or 2014. Feedback from people with first hand experience was welcome.

Now it's simply - and sadly - useless.

#6419 6 years ago


My CC contact needs some details regarding Skit-B transactions. If you have screenshots or pdf of the Kit-B website when the Predator pages were still active, I would appreciate getting a copy.
Also: any evidence that the pin should have been delivered in 2014?

Thanks - email mergny (at) mnhn (dot) (countrycode for france is fr...)

#6453 6 years ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

use the internet archive....it took a few snapshots of the webpage....check here for one....
Hope it helps.

It does !

Bring back some memories - Just realized that on the "Crew" page, Kathy Kulek was listed as "Legal and bookkeeping"...

#6483 6 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

I can only imagine how incredibly frustrating this must be for folks with money involved.

I do more than imagine.

Paypal is answering...
Kevin seems to...
Martin is...
Pinside is
The Anonymous Group is

#6749 6 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

Not looking to offend anyone, but what reasons did people have for investing in this game?

Theme has appeal to some (me included).
I liked the cabinet and BG.
Animations were fine.
The prototype we saw was complete - rules were far more complete than any Stern game (or WoZ) when released.

Quoted from Trekkie1978:

I completely understand doing a pre-order with Jersey Jack, he's been in the business long enough to have full confidence in the game coming out.

Being in the business does not mean being capable of running a factory producing a game.
JPop has been in the business long enough too... Ask MG/RAZA owners about "full confidence".
Those who went for WoZ preorders had guts; it was a bumpy ride that took what... 3 years ?

#6792 6 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either.

But P3 is NOT taking preorder and not asking for $ 2 years in advance and I respect Gerry for that.

#6939 6 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Is it just me, or is Pinside becoming less fun by the day?

Pinside may not be fun, but at least it's gay...

#7018 6 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

If I did have the money (which of course I do not) I wouldnt be sending it to your pockets now.

I would be.
Ben may well be bitter because I guess a number of Predatored peopled would have jumped on AMH. Now it's too late.

(but yeah, Predator bashing is not really needed here... talking about the Pin, not the "manufacturer")

#7022 6 years ago

7,000 posts and not allowed to post Boobs to celebrate the event

#7025 6 years ago
Quoted from jarjarisgod:

Hardly feels right does it?

#7290 6 years ago
Quoted from TimeBandit:

Well, I'm playing at home, feeling very sorry for those caught up in this, and I'm simply recalling the path taken by the French Revolution, and how, once all the aristocrats had been taken care of, the beast that was the mob moved on to executing its own, for its existence was based on beheading, and once the beast had been born and needed to feed its own existence, then the initial cause was forgotten, and its reason detre was to behead, so the targets simply shifted so that it could continue to execute.

Interesting way of putting it. Spot on.

#7292 6 years ago

Amex Chargeback update on my side:

Got refunded in part (pending "final ruling" - whatever that means). Got refunded in my own currency, so no bonus due to changing exchange rates.

I paid Skit-B via multiple PP payments ("saving" $ for predator whenever I had some cash left). Had I known earlier (Nov 2014), I would have been refunded an extra $250 due to the 13-month limit imposed for dispute. (Anyone else with an Amex in the US heard the same thing?)

Time to move on for me. I can live with this $250 difference.

#7389 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Here is your retainer of which the other nine guys who are joining in on the suit have contributed $1,000 each. Go kick his ass sea bass."

Thanks Tiger. Rommy, I am willing to contribute to the suit... No way I can initiate this from France. The more we are the better?

I am not done with Preorders then... After pinball preorders, lawyers preorders!
What's next?

Quoted from TigerLaw:

inquiring minds want to know

I do not know if this is sad or not but I do not care anymore.

#7542 6 years ago

Guess I would have read this article with a different perspective if refunds had started to be sent.
Actions speak louder than words. Especially these words!

#7622 6 years ago
Quoted from T-800:

Secondly, did anyone ever get any official statement in writing from Kevin on where there money actually was going or what it was going for? I mean, the first round of $250 deposits were mostly just sent in via paypal, it's not like paypal issued receipts and I know Kevin did not. It all went into a black hole for all I know with no real documentation on what the money was going towards. Again, "get it in writing," at least all the buyer's would actually have a document supporting their claims.

My case exactly. Nothing but an acknowledgment by email. Silly me.

#7777 6 years ago

Can someone PM me detective Brent Benzing's email? I could find his phone but it will be simpler for me to be understood by email...

Or may be he loves listening to my awesome French accent

#7818 6 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Damn, anyone else get that auto-reply from the Detective?
Shit just got real.

Email sent to the detective - joining the Hunt -; no answer yet.

Quoted from Russo121:

He basically says he has asked the FBI for assistance as the number of victims is so large, and that people send him the info which Rommy described earlier.

Kevin, wake up.
Time is running out... do something, start refunding people for real...or this will turn very ugly very quickly.

I would have forgiven a $250 "donation" but no way I can accept a $3250 (best case) to $4750 loss without a fight... and I was one of your strong supporters. Imagine how others feel about this.

So if you read these lines... Act. Now.

#7851 6 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Why did Aaron K leave?

Aaron (nothing to do with Fast Pinball - the Other Aaron) may have to testify. Will be interesting to know his story. He may consider getting a lawyer too...

#7943 6 years ago

Changed my Predator status on my-pinside/collection... Pin moved from "wishlist" to "collection history" "Owned in the past"...whatever that means here!

#8126 6 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

The US Bankruptcy Court is designed to oversee the equitable distribution of assets to multiple creditors. If you guys really think he has a stash of money somewhere, force him in to involuntary bankruptcy. It only takes three of you that are fully paid up. Each of you send him a demand letter, give him 14 days to refund in full.

I Googled demand letters - here is one I found and adapted. Would that work?

Dear Mr. Kulek:

In between Nov 2012 and May 2014 I made several Paypal payments to you to pre-order a pinball machine, for total amount of $4,750. You have informed all of your customers on xx Marc 2015 by email that the project was cancelled and they would all be refunded. Despite this claim, you have not come forward with the money. I have made repeated attempts to get a refund by emails. I am requesting that you refund me in full by xx May 2015, or make specific arrangements to pay the balance.

I will expect a response to this letter no later than xx May 2015. If this matter is not resolved by the time specified above, I reserve the right to commence legal proceedings to recover the debt without further notice to you and this letter may be tendered in court as evidence of your failure to pay.

Quoted from examiner:

If he fails to do so, file an involuntary bankruptcy petition. At that point, everybody files a claim as an unsecured creditor. The court will then make sure everybody gets their fair share.

Would that work for a foreigner? How can I Join?

#8132 6 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

That would work fine.
Your non-USA status wouldn't be an issue.

Thanks. Anyone can PM me a mail address? All I have is a PO box for Skit-B.

#8215 6 years ago
Quoted from PACMAN:

Agreed. How do we make this happen?

Agreed too.

2 weeks later
#8467 6 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Anyone have any info for us international buyers on how to start a claim against Kevin whilst in another country?
I personally will jump through any hoops and go through any amount of frustrating legal crap to get a result on this. I'm also sure there are many others that would do so too.

Count me in too.

The legendary British - French alliance

1 week later
#8653 6 years ago
Quoted from CaryCarmichael:

Just spoke to Kevin's lawyer, Jon Emaus. We talked for about 15 minutes - I didn't want to take up too much time, as I'm pretty sure time is [our] money.
They are taking calls/emails from those affected,

Would you please PM the attorney's email? Perhaps more reliable than Skit-B...

1 week later
#8834 6 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

No refunds here. Still waiting for $4750.

Same - just checked my Paypal balance. Let's hope it was just the beginning. Finger crossed!

#8896 6 years ago
Quoted from PACMAN:

Just talked to the attorney. To be clear, Kevin and his attorney have NOTHING to do with the Paypal refunds showing up. Kevin has NO intention of issuing refunds, he is still intending to build the machines as soon as his attorney navigates through all the legalities which his attorney said will take 30-60 days. His attorney has no idea why a few people have received Paypal notices.

I won't kill the messenger, but that's depressing news...

#8902 6 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Nothing for me yet...

You're not alone. Me neither.

#9195 6 years ago
Quoted from KingDaddy:

Having anger towards someone who lied to you and stole money from you is not uncalled for. It's actually healthy to express it, whether you're Amish or not.

Understood. We get it - or 99.9% of us do. I have my fantasies too on how to deal with KK.
I guess the moderation is for the sick 0.1% who will take your post seriously
"If this is the general consensus, I should do it! They will actually thank me for that!"
Such a person may exist but is probably not Amish...

2 weeks later
#9291 6 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I want to personally vouch for Keith.

Thanks. Email sent to him.

#9314 6 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

I am just checking in. I believe I have contacted back each and every one of you that has either called me or sent a 'feedback form' from my law office website.

Even the Frenchs?
PM sent - emailed you on June 26 - no answer.

#9341 6 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

And I believed Skit B had the license. We'll all have a turn being mistaken. Such is life.

And your posts made customers like me believe there was a license - therefore inciting us to stay on board, missing the Paypal 180-day dispute limit, and losing the full $4750. Such is life.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.

#9368 6 years ago
Quoted from Pinballs:

I paid and signed up with Keith today. Another legal suit for Kevin Coolaid to deal with
I also emailed Kevin several times BEFORE I filed the suit, to give him a last chance to pay up and avoid all this hassle.

I am in too - the famous Anglo-French alliance

Did not even bother to try to recontact Kevin -have you tried his lawyer?

1 week later
#9372 6 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

Bump if you haven't contacted me yet:
Just to bring it back to top of mind:
I am a practicing lawyer in Michigan and would be happy to give a free phone consult with any Predator "investor" about their rights/remedies, and of course happy to represent them to assist in recovery of their monies.
I am currently representing Clients in the matter and have had contact with Mr. Kulek's lawyer, and am quite aware of what is going on.
248-436-4833 x 111
Keith Nathanson

Free bump.
For those hesitating, I suggest to contact Keith Nathanson. I asked him a couple of questions (before enrolling) he answered quickly.
My first lawsuit in a different country...

4 weeks later
2 weeks later
#9536 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

So yes, back on topic, what was the latest video of Predator gameplay? I'm curious what the state of the code was prior to this whole mess blowing up? Is there video of all of the modes out there? Was there a wizard mode?

There was a good video. Game was basically complete. Modes were cool. It would have been a good game. Not an outstanding game, but a good one. Rather simple with risky shots (remember these two stand-up targets?) but enjoyable.

Quoted from PinChili:

I think there was at least video of the blacklight effect working, no?

Kind of. Nothing that was mind-blowing.
Too bad for me: I did not care. It was not a Go / No Go test. Gameplay was, it passed that test.
Assuming the blacklight effect was important to me, I would have saved $4,750.

3 weeks later
#9587 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Mod confirmed owner of Pred-proto

I am speechless.

#9592 5 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Is this the only confirmed game in the hands of owners so far?

No. All buyers have one. This drama is just a smokescreen for Fox.
And I am living in Fairyland.

#9606 5 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

People will screw everyone in the whole hobby over without a second thought. Makes me sick.

Some people. Not all people.

#9607 5 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

There is nothing illegal about him owning a prototype game that never went into being manufactured. Nothing. Your anger should only be directed at that Kevin guy.

If you do not understand the anger, you are seriously misguided too.

#9611 5 years ago
Quoted from thedarkknight77:

He basically funded a crook, fully well knowing Kevin was a crook. Am I missing something?

Good summary.

#9617 5 years ago
Quoted from dgoett:

keith has another client.

Welcome aboard. We will tell you more about the Hazing, the secret rituals, the opening ceremony, and the mandatory donation to the "save jlm33 from foreclosure" charity organization.

I kid, I kid...

#9709 5 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Oh and the only people who got refunds were through their credit card. He hasn't sent any to anybody

Technically untrue if no time period specified: some people got refunds from Kevin in 2014 (sometimes after repetitive requests or threats to sue).

I doubt many (if any) received these refunds after the licence-gate. I did receive an email from Kevin on March 24, 2015 stating:

"To the many of you who have continued to support us and prefer to receive your game, I'm sorry to say that this is the end of the road and you, too, will be receiving a refund instead of a machine."

I am still waiting for these refunds... Guess I am not alone.

#9803 5 years ago
Quoted from DreamTR:

So guys, when am I getting my Predator pinball? I am getting excited!

After mine, because I have an earlier production #.
But I can sell you my spot if you're really impatient

#9895 5 years ago

Nostalgia... I am at a cosplay / game convention this week end organizing a Pin tourney... Saw this:

(ps: I am not the international buyer )



#9980 5 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

I must comment.
Today, based upon things I have reviewed today (in my office -- not on Pinside, and certainly not as an affront to anyone on Pinside), I have had to redefine in my small little noggin', the definition of stupidity. I am actually beside myself and have had to look at what I received a few times, thinking that maybe I slipped into a really bad episode of the Twilight Zone or The Outer Limits.

Now I am interested...

Darwin Awards caliber?

#9991 5 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

I really hope people don't start posting, just to hit the 10K mark. (12 to go)

I really hope too. Would be bad.

#9995 5 years ago

By the way, someone understands the discrepancy between post count on the Pinside forum page (9944) and post number (9994)?


#10014 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Doubtful since his lawyer is likely feeding him total bullshit to string him along and milk as much out of him as he can...

Ain't a lawyer duty is to have his client's best interest in mind?
I am naive, I know.

4 months later