Quoted from starfighter:
Yeah, thanks for moving the discussion to a classroom across the hallway.
This will be much better.
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Quoted from Whysnow:
why don't you go back to emailing FOX to tell them how you think this is all being done under the table and stay out of the conversation unless you have something worthwhile to add?
Why would you insinuate that I did that? I never said I did, publicly or privately, and I didn't. If Skit-B is dodging FOX then there are much larger problems than what I am posting on a forum.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Jared > why don't you just repeat the things you were overheard talking about at expo and also what you have told others regarding your involvement in getting to the 'truth' about Predator?
You have said many times now that you do not want to be the guy in the center of trying to 'blow the lid off' all this but you seem to be in every Predator thread with the same stuff.
Go back re-read every post I have made in this thread. The only thing I brought up was the forum rules. I'm not instigating anything. But you are.
So is there a expected date for the first round of games to begin shipping? Before the end of 2014?
Quoted from Whysnow:
Just a guess that at least the first batch of 10 will be in homes this year. Unsure how quick they can even build them but will likely take time to get a good production process down.
My best guess is that after the first batch goes out there will be feedback and tweaks with production, then I would bet things smooth out over time (similar to what we have seen with other new game makers).
I have heard that Williams and Bally would make 10-15 "Sample Games" to put in the wild before major production to try and control quality and get feedback. Do you think they will do this with Predator? Build 10-15 samples? Or are games 1-10 the first samples beyond the demo machine?
Thats pretty cool. So customers 1-20 basically understand that they are helping to fine tune the product as well.
Quoted from Whysnow:
NO, I did not say that at all! Why do you always try and stir up a bunch of bullshit and infer things that are not the truth?
Down Simba! That was not my angle here. There is no angle. If I wanted to stir up bullshit I have more than enough information to do that. Thats not my agenda. I dont want to stir up anything. Just wanna have some fun talk about Predator. Thats it.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Pretty sure the first batch going out is all the hard core fans and most will be understanding....
Quoted from Whysnow:
My best guess is that after the first batch goes out there will be feedback and tweaks with production...
I inferred this from your two posts that the first batch will go out to hard core fans who will be understanding and provide feedback and tweaks to Skit-B in lieu of them making sample games.
Quoted from Whysnow:
no sample games.
Production game with hopefully realistic owners that have reasonable expectations and a desire to make things better if they are able to do so.
Absolutely. Thats totally reasonable under the circumstances. Making 15 sample games for a run of 3000+... thats normal. Making 15 for a run of 250... a little odd.
Quoted from Toads:
Email Dated 09/05/2014
Skit-B Pinball Manufacturing Projections
"Now that we have major shipments of parts coming in, our build schedule has become much clearer. Games will be starting to go out this fall, as planned, after which we project we will be able to move about 40 units per month when we hit our stride. Using these projections, we can get a relative gauge on when any single game is scheduled to ship out, based on the production order number listed above. Of course, there will be more on this as we get deeper into the production process."
Cool. Two months to the day tomorrow. November is pretty well into the fall, no? That means anyday now. Whysnow may just win the bets afterall!
Quoted from Whysnow:
I don't know what the hell this even means but I take it as a personal attack. You may want to go back and read the rest of the TOS you quoted before.
You are funny.
Down Simba is a expression used when you believe someone is over-reacting. Rest assured, I don't actually mean to infer that you are an animated lion cub from a Disney movie.
Unlike you, I've never been thread banned before.
That could be absolutely awesome if it's true. Seriously awesome.
However, a variety of licensed products remain published and documented by their creators across the internet based on the original movie. It would seem that if such a disruption existed, it would apply to all license holders and not just skit-b, no? In that case we would see a total scrubbing of predator related items online and this does not seem to be the case. Only the pinball machine has gone missing.
Regardless, it's a awesome theory and a very positive one.
Quoted from jlm33:
I'll give you that: you are a very subtle Troll, but a Troll nonetheless...
I guess I appreciate the compliment, but I don't mean to be a troll whatsoever. It really would be awesome, and it really is fall, and it really would be cool to see games shipping any day now. Nothing will end this "speculation" faster than shipped games, and that's good for pinball. So I am rooting for skit-b to continue on as planned and ship some games "in the fall" as they communicated. That would be awesome.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Glad to see that if we define our personal attacks then they are just fine by your interpretation of the TOS.
See here is the difference.
The mods define what is a personal attack. Not either of us.
And based on that, you (and others) have been removed from threads entirely. You really have broken the rules before... You have a record... A wrap sheet... A file. You're a documented offender.
I've never been thread banned even once.
Even now there is a moderator dashboard where there small band of 12 volunteers to run the ship, and there is a little note about this very thread I'm sure. I'm willing to bet that 12 out of 12 mods agree that "down Simba" is not a personal attack, despite you claiming the contrary to attempt to allicit a response from them.
If it's all the same to you, let's talk about the game as the OP intended.
Post edited by moderator: 24 hour eject for the rap sheet...a File...Documented. Please don't troll.
Quoted from Whysnow:
So what exactly are you doing in this thread? You obviously thus far are just trying to ask baited questions and then twisting around everything you possibly can. My best guess is that you are looking for more info that you then think you can pass on to Fox on the downlow to try and stir up things?
If we are going to define fun words then here are a few.
Attention whoring is an expression used when you believe someone craves attention so badly that they interject themselves into everything and do anything (good or bad) to recieve that attention.
Troll is an expression used when you believe someone is deliberately provocative in a forum with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument
Words Related to troll
*in no way am I using these words as a personal attack. Merely defining them in case others wanted to know the urban definitions of them in case you want to use them in the future.
I have no intent to cause maximum disruption. In fact, I was trying to steer the thread back on track and find some positives to discuss.
I've never in my life heard a troll defined as "ugly", what is your source of that definition?
Let's talk about predator, as the OP intended.
When do you guys think the first games will ship?
Is it really that simple to get a license for an iconic brand like Predator? Arnold Famously charged Farsight $60,000 to use his likeness in their digital version of T2 Pinball just last year. You can image that based on that the license for predator would be extremely expensive.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Our favorite reporter/detective claimed his 'friends' used his 'connections in the industry' to go try and dig up the inside scoop from FOX a few months ago. We can only assume he came up empty, because had he been able to even find a morsel of evidence that there was something wrong with the license he would have been here trying to get as much attention as he could.
That's not true at all.
I've gone out of my way to keep quiet in this thread and not say anymore. I've been quiet for weeks now. I've been deliberately avoiding responding to any posts you make or even participating in threads that you wonder in to. Now, you are dragging me into this again when I have not even posted in regards to the subject in weeks.
I have not done anything with Fox. I don't plan on it. Even if I had, I don't want to be the guy who's posts sinks the ship so I would keep the info to myself. I'm not even on the list for predator, but when I was originally given terrible information about this project I felt like keeping to myself was the equivolant of assisting a crime. What I've realized is that if I say anything or not, whatever is going to happen is going to happen.
At this point all that can be done is to wait. In time, we will know a lot more than we do now.
I sincerely hope that all 250 games are made and shipped and I wish any pinball company the best of luck. Their success helps the entire hobby progress.
Kindly leave me out of this. Thank you.
Been following along for a while and doing my best to stand back and let things unfold without putting in my two cents. Afterall, whatever I say does not really matter at this point no matter the outcome. Still, I think there are some lessons here.
I do not think it is likely that Skit-B will ever release another pinball machine after predator. The debacle and drama associated with Predator has more or less eliminated this possibility. This forum was used to generate nearly all of the paid pre-orders for Predator, and was done so with genuine enthusiasm, excitement, updates and interaction. It was an exciting time, and each day you could go back and forth with the games creators... and see clearly that the passion was there to do something amazing.
That was some time ago now. Quite some time.
While the ducking underground is understandable, it's not acceptable. Not when being out front is what got you there in the first place... what made it possible. You can't stand up and shout to get the crowds gathered and then retreat to the shadows when the collection is over. You set a precedent of transparency... interaction... you let the people be your investors... and then your gone.
To be clear, I do think that Predator the pinball machine will get made, one way or another, one day or another. To be clear, I still think that Kevin and his team is a passionate group of pinheads who started off this project with the very best of awesome intentions. I also still think that Kevin is a good guy.
But I also think that Kevin is in deep... perhaps deeper than he can or is willing to reveal. I think that that delays are not coincidental... the removal of web articles and youtube videos... they are not coincidental. I think that there has been a critical setback and the safest route of navigation is silence and vague communication. Certainly, if my hunch is correct, being 100% transparent about it might be "too much for people to handle" and inadvertently end up collapsing the whole deal. So, being quiet about it... letting people become annoyed... that's the only way forward.
To make game #2 a sold out hit, Kevin would need to employ the exact same level of hype, interest, enthusiasm and excitement that he did for Predator: which is now impossible. Theme aside, the ability for Kevin and Skit-B to rally hundreds of thousands of dollars in advance again was lost when the situation Predator forced him underground. Even if he were to change tone, ship every predator, and then come out and talk about EOD, people would question why/how he is suddenly available to speak and be on pinside.
From across threads and products and manufactures in the pinball community it becomes clear that the ones best regarded are the ones with excellent communication skills. Guys who *always* respond to emails, who respond to PM's, who not only participate in threads but create them... those are the people who gain the trust... get the customers... grow their business. Kevin was never a bad person... he just dived into a massive project headfirst with lead weights on.
Predator will likely ship sometime soon... and there will be some relief from that. But even once every game is shipped and this phase has passed... will Skit-B ever be able to regain the trust of the pinball community at a level that would allow them to pre-fund a new title again? I believe the answer is no.
Wherever you are Kevin, and whatever you are doing, I am certain that there is a unimaginable amount of stress and pressure on you. You must know that, which is why you navigate past these forums where such issues become reinforced. You will make it... in the end you will be OK... its just a long tough road.
Good luck to all involved.
Quoted from Cybergoonie:
Screw that...Kevin, wherever you are...and whatever you're doing get your S#*% together & in gear and show those pinsider's who paid you some damn respect. Enough of the handholding pity party bs. Grow a pair people. The silence is deafening & outright disrespectful. Do what you need to do to get your money back.
I was trying to leave room for some optimism and positivity.
Quoted from Half_Life:
And that choice (and the consequences attached thereto) can only harm one person; me.
I like your post a lot, and agree with nearly all of it: except this part. "It only affects me" is just not true.
Lets be clear, the games are going to be made and shipped as promised: eventually. So... that really is (likely) the end of the story save for some grumbling about time delays...
But if it's not...
It wont be "just you" that it affects. 250 people don't get hurt here... an entire industry does. Even now, already without too much real reason, its widely considered on pinside that the "pay first, get the game later" model is dead or near death. Anything going wrong with Predator will not only kill it with authority, but it will kill similar used business methods by other manufactures.
No one... no one... will ever be able to pre-fund an idea on pinside and make a machine 12-36 months later... even if the theme is DD beach babes VS zombie nazi's on dinosaurs. The success or failure of this project... even the part before the success and failure... (like the emails, communication, refund requests, photos given, timelines etc) are all affecting downsteam the willingness of any pinhead to support any idea up front. Its true.
Should skit-b fail for some reason... they don't just hurt 250 pinheads... they kill the entire business model for everyone. No Wrath of Olympus, no time-shock!, no Alien Pinball, and many more...
Thankfully... the odds of this happening are pretty low. Skit-B will eventually put our Predator, and there will be much rejoicing and happiness. That's a good thing.
That is the reason that "non owners" are interested in this thread and have a valid reason to have some concern. We may not be in the "direct blast zone" like the 250, but we are certainly in the "radioactive contamination zone" that the blast would create. And by "we" I mean "every one of us".
So lets hope that no-one drops the bomb.
Quoted from Betelgeuse:
Some have insisted that it didn't make sense for SkitB to promote Predator anymore, since it was sold out. THIS is why it would have made sense. They need new buyers lined up to replace those that drop out, so they can get their refund. I can't see too many people being ready to fork over the cash now.
I thought the "waiting list" was quite long.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Still sick and tired of the same worthless losers that are always in here trying to fan the already lit fire. It is not going to help get games built faster and it is not going to help those on preorder as you cheer for the fire.
Not sure if you are calling me a "worthless loser" or not, but I am certainty not cheering on a fire. Is there a fire? Maybe it's your money being burned that you smell. No fire here.
I simply stated that I thought the waiting list was quite long. Not because I am fanning anything, but because literally it was stated that there was a waiting list, and I was under the assumption that it was quite long. That's all.
"There will be no more than 250 machines produced, to which all pre-orders have been filled. We will keep a running waiting list for those interesting in the case of someone backing out of their order for whatever reason"
"The waiting list is definitely something to consider, as well, as we get about 3~5 emails per day asking if we have any spots open. "
"Keep in mind that there is a waiting list with many people happy to take any slots that open up. SkitB has also made it clear that if you want out at a later date then you can get your deposit back if someone else takes your slot >> which it appears there is a pretty good chance of that happening. Heck there are guys already offering cash to buy out slots even before the deposit stage deadline."
"Fwiw the waiting list is pretty long and has not moved much in a long time from what i have been told. Have a buddy that has been on the wait list for 6 months and said he has moved less than 10 spots."
"There's definitely a waiting list (ever-growing per Kevin) of people wanting more, but there will be no more. Two hundred and fifty per the licensing."
That's just a variety of posts from people about the list and its size.
Seems like things are getting pretty heated. I keep seeing "guy who likes attention in Texas" and "Texas group" thrown around. I happen to live in Texas, what a coincidence. Let me just say a few things and then I will head back to the hospital where my attention has been focused for a month now.
1. I have never called Fox in my life for any reason.
2. I have never sent an email to Fox in my life for any reason.
3. I was once on Fox news in Dallas for something, but that ends my communication (ever) with Fox.
4. I never claimed to have personally contacted Fox via PM on pinside, and should anyone press on about how I did, screen-shots and records will prove my innocence and insert foots into mouths.
5. I have never sent or received any emails around regarding the predator pinball.
6. The last time I talked to Martin of Pinball news was casually in passing at Expo 2014. Nice guy, respect him very much.
Even today, 3/1/15, I will go on record as saying that I hope that everyone in on predator get's their games soon and enjoys them. I wish the best for Skit-B and all of the pinball enthusiasts who supported them.
I have got other things to attend to, so I am stepping out. Someone text me if something big happens.
I also got an email from "Greg Wells" this morning. It is the first and only email I gave got from this person. Of note, at 8:12am I was dead asleep, as my wife would verify.
Hilton did message me asking if I had got the email nearly two weeks ago, and I was of course confused. Hilton never replied to my pm asking about it, at the time I was very confused.
This email from "whoever" came today, and is the first one I've gotten. Various friends of mine, some outside of Texas, have reported to me in the last few hours that they have also been contacted by this same person, some with much longer and detailed emails than mine.
I confirmed via phone this afternoon that the admins are totally aware of the situation and investigating in their own.
Anyways, stuff is obviously happening, but I want to reassert that I have nothing to do with it. I have no clue who this person is.
Quoted from Whysnow:
Until told otherwise, I am going to assume all 250 games will get built eventually.
You HAVE been told otherwise, I saw the email that was sent to you two weeks ago myself where this "alias' person laid it all out in black and white for you. I mean literally... at that moment.. .you were more informed than nearly any other person on the planet. You of all people.
And you have disregarded that information, crossed your arms and said "I will believe it when I see it!".
On that day you got the email, you PM'd me here, and I told you had no idea what you were talking about. I was telling the truth! Just yesterday this same person finally DID email me, and in that email they forwarded on the whole thing that they sent you, including this part: "But, you are being approached so you can mentally prepare yourself first, before anybody else. To become the strong one in a sea of flailing people"
Come on man. Really... I know you are a sharp dude... I know you are. Come on.
There is no way that 240 of 250 get 100% back. You think they have not touched a dollar in all this time beyond what was needed for parts? Not a single cent? Sure, it's true, no-one knows how much if anything is left, but for you to say that 90% is left... come on... you think he paid for trips to expo and pinball events nationally with his own personal account?
Quoted from Whysnow:
Sorry Jared, but I have no reason to believe you or some 'annoymous' guy sending me (and others) an email with no evidence to actually back up the claims. Mr. A lost all credibility as soon as he set up a fake account to start sending unsolicited emails to people on the preorder list in hopes of actually starting a mass run on the bank. Similarly, you lost all credibility when you told me almost identical things as Mr. A last October but had no proof to back it up. You just can't make all sorts of claims without the proof, and if you actually had some sort of proof for over 6 months and choose not to share it then that may even be worse.
Since you are here, why don't you tell us all about your discussions at Expo with "an extremely well known person in the business of pinball"?
The story as you previous told it 6 months ago to me and several pinside mods started out something like "We were having drinks and expo, and he revealed to me that he had intimate knowledge that 20th Century Fox blah blah blah"
Who is the extremely well know person that had the inside scoop on this info? This is pretty damming stuff for them to be claiming when they had nothing to back it up. If this is all true, then YOU knew it before everyone else it appears.
Oddly enough Mr. A seems to have all the same information you were spouting off since last October
>> You said to multiple people last october something to the effect of 'I know that several people over the last several days have contacted Fox licensing in Hollywood to check in on the pinball machine. Someone is going to get a response. If it's the bad one none of us want to be true, its going to be bad.'
Who are these mysterious people contacting Fox? You are obviously affiliated with the whole thing Jared, so better off to lay all your cards on the table now.
Either way the last chapter gets written, you unfortunately spent significant time involved in the process of trying to bring it all down.
You either had pertinent information, but did not do what was needed to make sure your fellow pinheads would be warned, or you infact have been part of whatever extra complications have caused a large roadblock on the project.
Might as well name names and be honest with all you have been part of...
The proof was in pubic for all to see man. Suddenly and without warning or explanation, all mentions, articles, photos and video of Predator Pinball are scrubbed from Skit-B's website and youtube channel. When confronted with the question of why, the response was "we are updating our website".
Come on man.
I don't want to bring down Skit-B, never have. I also have never called or emailed Fox, I swear to God.
I DO want this hobby as a whole to not be negatively affected by bad business practices (and that extends beyond Skit-B to several others). 2012-2014 saw unprecedented growth and interest in this hobby, and things going south with any numbers of new builders can set (us all) back a lot. Thats what must be avoided.
It's true, at Expo in 2014 I was told by someone in a high position within the pinball industry that they had personal knowledge that Skit-B did not maintain rights to the appropriate licenses, and never did. As alarming as this was to hear, it may have possibly been completely untrue and I was not going to get on pinside and sound alarms without being 100% sure, and even then its something that I really, really did not want to be at the center of. So I messaged people I know personally about it, and I also informed the admin staff here so they knew what I knew when I knew it... and I sat back to see what happened.
Context clues and coincidental occurrences and emails since them all have seemed to support the claim made to be at Expo14, but it was never "clear".
Then two weeks ago you message me asking about some email and Martin and PBN and I was really, really confused, as I told you. Weeks passed, and now just yesterday on the 1st I was sent a series of emails from this "group of people operating under an alias", one of which included the entirety of the email sent to you two weeks ago that prompted you to PM me then.
Suddenly, things became very, very clear. At least to me. This is all within the last 24 hours.
According to what both you, and I (and others) have been told, PBN is going to break the news once things are official and filed, and with PBN comes basically indisputable honesty and respect to his journalistic integrity. If Martin says it happened... it happened. And according to this mystery person, thats exactly what will happen within 1-14 days from now.
I never, ever wanted to bring Skit-B down, and if that's what happens, it will only be because they weren't telling the truth in the first place, a blame only they can accept.
I am not affiliated with the whole thing, I am not affiliated at all. I dont send emails to myself while I am dead asleep with my wife who has been with me non stop at the NICU the last 3 weeks. I don't have time for it, I swear to you.
Coast 2 Coast weighs in. I liked your approach. Man, you had to setup like 3 minutes of disclaimers, heh.
Quoted from Hwawonyu:
The podcasts are great. I'm totally addicted now. I also appreciated his non removed assessment as well as thoughts on all of our passion.
Much to to learn from him. The cheerleaders can ease up on those trying to help and the negatives could be nicer in trying to share what they see from a removed perspective with less of an attack theme.
I think no matter which side you are on... everyone is unanimous in that we... the world of pinball... want this to end well for all involved... Kevin included.
Quoted from Marv:
More and more this is sounding like a "long con"..
That suggests intent. I have met Kevin, and I DO NOT think that whatever he is dealing with is intentional. I mean... he had not set out and planned and plotted to con anyone or make this a long terrible process.
I think Kevin started with the very best of intentions... things went south... emergency protocols went into place to prevent a run on the bank... bandaids became bandages... cuts became wounds... and now things have inadvertently come to a point where things are really, really serious.
Not saying that Kevin could not have prevented it with some better planning and a partner who had done this kind of thing before... just saying he is NOT a con man. I dont believe that for a second.
A fibber maybe... but not in the beginning... and not as a part of an elaborate plan. No way. This guy wants to build an awesome predator pinball machine and always has. Possibly... he cant.
We shall see I guess.
“We have been working very closely with PayPal for a long time to make sure that every penny that goes through us is well-protected and secure. They have been extremely helpful and have developed a strong personal rapport with us that affords us the luxury of open and direct communication in any and all situations. With the security of all funds being absolutely paramount in ANY foreseeable case, there are processes that must be followed and while they can take a bit of time to work with, the end result is that even if we were to literally die or encounter a license issue or disappear to Venezuela or whatever other rumors there may be, we do so without risking a cent of your money.”
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:
Correct, I called PayPal, they said I can not make a claim as its >180 days!
Also said they had NO special deal with a company called Skit B or in fact do any 'special' deals with any company. All we get is the 180 days.
Glad I purchased this on a credit card.
Although going to wait for the 'amazing' Skit B announcement next week first.
So which post here is correct then?
Quoted from ccotenj:
the first one is a total fantasy... as noted several times...
Quoted from lowepg:
Yeah, I think is clear now that was horseshit.
Quoted from frolic:
I think paypal has already answered that by denying the refunds.
So when Kevin said this, did he really believe it to be true, or did he know what he was saying was untrue?
If this was untrue and knowingly said, what other things were said that may be equally untrue?
Quoted from blondetall:
Some that are secretly poking around claim that they are "doing it for the betterment of the hobby," but I can guarantee you that me losing my paid in full $4750 is going to mean that I'm not really going to be a part of this hobby going forward.
You think people "poking around" is the reason this is all happening? You think that people poking around will be the reason you lose $4750? Is it even truly, factually, actually proven that you WILL lose money? I mean, yes, the writing on the wall is grim, but nothing is in stone as far as anyone knows, right?
Quoted from blondetall:
I'm not going to trust companies or groups that had a hand in bringing down a teeny competitor
Wait a second, you think companies or groups "had a hand" in bringing down Skit-B? I know you are angry, upset and hurt... but you have to see through that and not place the blame anywhere else than where it deserves to be placed. No-one tried to "bring down predator", apparently some people just started asking questions in the total absence of communication and odd disappearance of youtube videos and photos. If some simple phone calls really did lead FOX to start a process that blows this thing up then that means it was never real to begin with. That's not any companies fault but one.
I know some people here DO seem to be "eating popcorn" but I for one think this is terrible. I said several months ago:
It's in the best interest of our entire hobby for this all to work out as planned and promised.
Should this blow up for some reason, the resulting title-wave will have a catastrophic effect on other upcoming boutique pin makers and the whole pre-order culture pinball exists in today in 2014. Not even talking about the financial disaster, the psychological effect it would have on sales in the future would change this entire industry.
So yes, this is why there is such a heightened interest in this situation. This is not a game, its not a joke, its not a internet popcorn fest. This is a situation that at least possibly may have a historic effect on our hobby.
Here is what you said 4 months ago Blondetall.
Quoted from blondetall:
So y'all chill and don't be calling Fox or getting my pin shut down or taken away. And if we later find out that SkitB intentionally screwed us and I have lost $4750, 2+ years of waiting, and countless other pin opportunities while my money was tied up, then I will lead the charge to lynch them.
Even then you obviously thought that someone calling Fox could "get your pin shut down or taken away". That was never the truth. Your pin getting taken away is only one persons fault if that actually happens.
Lets all hope that it does not. If a company like DP can recover from a complete disaster and come out OK in the end, so can Skit-B I think! There is always a solution. The difference is, we knew there was a problem with DP... here we only speculate that there is a problem. Maybe it will all work out fine in the end. I hope it does.
Quoted from spfxted:
Not TOTALLY true! If the machines were just made and delivered, that would be that. If calls were made and the shit hit the fan, and that caused the project to stall or be shut down...that's another thing...
If the machines were made and delivered, and they were legally allowed to be made and delivered, that would be that.
If calls were made, and it was brought to the attention of Fox that a such thing as a predator pinball even existed at all for the first time, and that caused the project to stall or be shut down... that's not another thing... that's an indication that things said in the beginning were never true.
The good news is... at least for now... that's not been proven yet. Not by Kevin... or by Fox. Its still up in the air. Nothing is 100%, and even if we get some terrible news that there never was a license... I think the door remains open with the right person (Roger Sharpe?) (Heighway who already has a Fox license?) to salvage this deal somehow.
Blondetall said it best: sit back and wait. Thats all that can really be done.
Quoted from Whysnow:
very interesting that you are now claiming this...
Im not claiming it. I am speculating that it may end up being a possibility. Who knows?
Based on free and public information we know:
1. Roger Sharpe has salvaged a botched license deal with a major studio.
2. Heighway Pinball has a license with Fox, who coincidentally owns Predator as well.
So, just based on free and public information, you could guess that either of those two option may come into play in the future: if there is an issue. Skit-B sends an email in 6-7 days from now, right? Let them say what they are doing.
In fact, the more they say.... the less people here fill in the blanks. Clear, detailed communication can still salvage skit-b and this situation, no matter how dire it may be.
Quoted from Pinballfantexas:
Now Whysnow, remember Jared has nothing to do with any of this, but he does seem to know a lot about it.
I do not have anything to do with this, and I do know quite a lot about it. Sadly.
This "anonymous group" continues to email me with some frequency. I have been forthcoming and honest with this amongst the entirety of the pinside mod team, blondetall included. She has seen every thing I have seen. Every word.
At this point every admin and mod on pinside is 100% as informed as I am.
Now, whether the information I am informed with is all, totally true: remains debatable. Because it cannot be proven, it should not be shared in public. Especially when Skit-B themselves said 7 days ago they would "clear up everything in an email in 2 weeks". So... instead of posting what anonymous sends me, better to sit back and see what happens. Not like anyone can stop the situation in motion at this point anyways.
If it ends good or bad, Kevin gets the credit. So I hope it ends well.
The website, youtube, facebook cleansing of images, video and text mentioning Predator Pinball from Skit-B in conjunction with the very specific disclaimer added to the front page of the website is, to me, a clear and obvious sign that a cease and desist letter was issued on behalf of the copyright holder. Why would such a letter be sent to someone who was granted legal permission via a license?
You could say "not necessarily" and: that's true. There's a chance that it was for some other reason. However, no possible solution fits with the pieces more obviously than a C&D.
And I must add, because it's easy to forget, I still hold hope that this all can be sorted and fixed, whatever issues they may be. Anything can be fixed.
Quoted from Half_Life:
Dammit Jared! I actually clicked one of those YouTube links. Ok, maybe two of them. Oh all right, I clicked all three. Happy now?
Only two were YouTube links. But they are the links from skit-b for awesome videos they had up.
The third link is their website, which exists, but to me obviously skips past their biggest claim to fame.
Whateve is going to happen is going to happen. The members of Pinside, and especially the people who finally backed this project do NOT deserve to be lied to or misled.
Quoted from Jetzxi:
I wonder if Jared will be streaming Kevin's email announcement? It will be so.......... "Epic"
If Kevin were to email me some good news I would love to share it with you all. Were he to request, I would be happy to help, truly.
A year ago I wrote a fair and unbiased review of his machine (you can still find it in this sub-forum) and posted it along with HD play video. My post solidified several pre-orders and generated many sales for Skit-B. During that time at TPF was also when I knew Kevin was a nice guy... a true pinhead. Wayyy more hardcore than me (or most of us).
Communication and drama aside, Kevin is a good guy and I think he started this project with pure, raw passion. Who would not be attracted to that? I hope there will be good news... anything is possible right?
Quoted from Whysnow:
I bet it will be the end of this week before we get a solid update.
Given past history, "2 weeks" means more like "14 to 21 days" in this land
Given the severity of the situation and the anxiousness of the guys in here, I think this would be one of those times where it would be fantastic to under-promise and over deliver. I don't think anyone here, even you, wants to deal with "typical behavior" anymore.
Kevin, (via Ted) set his own deadline here. He didn't have to say two weeks, he could have said a month or "as soon as we can" but he decided to say two weeks.
Would be pretty rad if he came in a day early with some concrete good news and knocked everyone's socks off.
Right now most are expecting bad news, or a delay beyond 2 weeks, and then cryptic news. How cool would it be for skit-b to shock and surprise everyone with awesome news... early? I hope they do.
Quoted from frolic:
Ok, now that Martin's name has come up again, this time by Kevin, I have to think EVERY allegation brought forward in those conspiracy emails has to be accurate.
I just thought the same thing.
When I first saw the emails from the anonymous group, I was like, "hrmmm ok" and was not sure if everything they said could be true. The weak link in their story was Martin. Seemed to me, that confirming if Martin was in fact involved or not could verify or discredit the *entire* email from this dude "Greg Wells" aka... the anonymous group. Seemed to me, all this time, all anyone had to do is contact Martin and ask "are you involved" and if he said yes... that would basically prove it.
And now... before Martin has said a word... you have Kevin himself admitting that Martin is involved.
Holy crap man.
Quoted from Concretehardt:
Good luck to all of us because if any of us get burned... In the end we all get burned.
Bingo. This is how I have justified my interest in this all along.
If this goes belly up... this will be a "defining" moment in the Pinball hobby. There will be the hobby before... and after... "the incident"... and nothing will ever be the same again. Everyone on the list are the largest causalities... but beyond them... the entire hobby suffers as a result as well. Terrible.
Quoted from Hougie:
I'm afraid that this statement is a little dramatic.
You are right, and I regret my comment. Comparing (anything) in pinball to that day is wrong, insensitive, and ill placed. I apologize.
I only meant to compare to the "paradigm shift" the incident caused, but it was a bad comparison and one I should not have made. Thumbs down on my post are rightfully earned.
I am sorry.
Quoted from vid1900:
Even major blockbuster movies license for $25 a game.
How much do you think a B-movie that is 30 years old is going to license for?
Predator is not a B-movie from decades ago... its a hot collectors item still on toy store shelves to this day. Its very, very hot product which is a part of a series that has movies made recently with the IP.
Quoted from vid1900:
But remember that licenses are only good for a short while, and then you have to renegotiate if you want to keep them active.
Remember that any artwork has to be approved (Google how many Demolition Man translights got rejected before Snipes signed off on his likeness).
Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.
Remember that a movie license does not necessarily allow you to put logos and artwork all over your website or T-shirts.
You are giving him the benefit of the doubt... admirable.
He famously stated that he obtained the license by calling a number on the back of the DVD. Knowing what we know now, does anyone think this actually happened?
When images/video went off his website inexplicably last year it was said "we are updating our website" and "we do not have much time to keep our website up to date.". Knowing what we know now, does anyone think this is actually what happened?
From Kevin's own emails its easy to put the pieces together. He was *obviously* served a C&D from FOX which resulted in the website/youtube/facebook cleanse of predator images/video/text. Right then and there, that instant, things were in really, really bad shape.
Not until March 18th 2015 was it officially confirmed from the source that there were license troubles, but I think what is not being said in this email that is trying to hold the ship afloat is that their troubles are not recent... they are many many months in the making...
I retain that Kevin is a nice dude and started this project with passion, enthusiasm and genuine good will. Somewhere along the way... things got scary... and lies were told to keep the ship from sinking. They had to have been.
Actually, according to Phil, as of EXPO 2014... there was no final license... only the backglass had been tentatively approved at that point.
Thank God, in the end, that all got worked out and the game is going to be OK...
But that was a team of people... who charged a ton of money for their game... who have a facility and a warehouse... and even then needed many revisions, and the help of a pinball legend to get it done.
Yes... the situations are similar (sadly).. but this one does not look to have a happy ending like DP.
Under the circumstances, what choice do these people have... but to hope. Might as well. Getting angry wont get anyone their game... or their money.
Quoted from 27dnast:
I thought Nate Shivers brought up a really good point. Game or no game...is the game Kevin is saying he'll build really even that good? Theme is good...the Multiball video I saw looked cool...gameplay didn't blow my mind...BUT, you never can really tell how a game plays until you get your hands on it.
I'd be curious to hear from some people that have actually played it
Quoted from metallik:
Yup, surprised no one else has thought of this... and surprised Kevin didn't use an anonymous service to hide his registrar details.
Skit-B World HQ, Midland Michigan - Appropriately located on a street with a warning sign for any who should seek answers there.
Quoted from Jetzxi:
Do you guys want Kevin to come on Pinside and do a Q&A?
Why is this even a question?
Communication on Pinside is what made Skit-B-Skit-B. This place built them. And this place could save them too... if he just communicates. That's all he has ever needed to do. From the start: clear, quick, honest communication has been the major lacking occurrence.
Whats done is done...
There is a fire raging right now... and Kevin's words are THE ONLY way to possibly put out the fire. However if he is not 100% forthcoming and honest, his words will become gasoline...
If Kevin is holding any cards... has any news... has any facts that are not known... there has never been a better time to come to Pinside and share them with the very people who want to hear it. For his own sake... he should. Yes. Do not delay... not two weeks.
Quoted from Whysnow:
I think it would be a good idea to get a moderator involved as there are obviously some people that will ask beyond mean questions at this stage and it may be a good idea to have a mod enlisted to be ready if things spiral at any point.
It may also be a good idea to field some questions in advance.
Aurich + Xerico might be a good choices for what you propose.
Quoted from underlord:
1. Refund the money to those waiting for refunds. If my $4750 helps get them that much closer to it, Use it towards that goal. Yes, I want my machine assuming it gets made, but others may be in more financially dire situations than myself.
Pinball people really are the best in the world. You are awesome man, I hope to meet you and buy you a beer.
Quoted from Nibbles:
If you want to talk with Kevin, all of his info is listed on any website that tells you the registrant info for websites (I.e. Skitbpinball.com). Apparently I get banned by posting the direct link to public information on this site....
But he's only stolen ~$5k from me and many other people here, so fcuk me, Amirite mods?!?
Why would they do that?
Domain registration is public information if the registrant chooses, and that was obviously the choice since the Whois reveals the name, address and phone number of the registrant.
Besides, if someone had $4700 of your money and stopped returning emails for 3 months wouldn't you want their info too? Anyone would.
Quoted from kvan99:
PS: Also if there is a mod involved well I think he should be stripped of his status.
Well then there goes the entire staff because every staff member here saw the emails and was in on them pretty much from day 1. Whysnow reported them to them as soon as he got them, as did Aurich, and myself, and many others. Who knows how many.
Every mod here has seen the emails more or less in real-time as they were sent out. That does not mean that any of them "were involved" but I am not sure what you mean by "involved". Knowing whats going on publicly and privately is a part of the daily grind for this volunteer staff of moderators we have here. They do they best they can.
Quoted from kvan99:
That itself is a big story...a competitor company taking Skid-b down. Fox denies Skid-b the license after he tries to apply for one because they refuse to work with an idiot who tried to pull a fast one on them. This is genius..at least diabolical.
Man what are you talking about.
Skit-B took Skit-B down.
Any other accusation is false.
The time fore Skit-B to apply for a license was before he announced that there would be such a thing as "Predator Pinball". Once he went on about it the "punk rock approach" as he stated to PBN, he knowingly risked everyone's investment. Its a fact.
Reading back over pages 1-10 of this makes me upset (again). But ya know what... it does not matter. The back and forth with Whysnow... i'm over it. I even sent him a PM apologizing anyways. No-one deserves to be taken advantage of. Not Hilton... or any of you... no matter what you have ever said.
It does not matter now that some people back then were actually right... and some were wrong. Reading older posts about Predator now is... crazy. Knowing what we know now, you read things and are like "God".
What matters now is that:
-Everyone gets a full and complete refund as soon as it is possible.
-The pinball community recovers from this whole situation.
I don't want to argue with WhySnow or anyone else anymore. This thread has brought out so much venom... and hate. Its hard to read... because this is a hobby so fully of amazing, caring, generous and genuine people. This thread... this is not what pinball is all about.
I was among the first to get the emails, as many of you know. I later found that several others had got them the same time as I did. I shared them with the moderators, a few of my friends, and kept them to myself for fear that they may be false. It was not ever 100% for me until the day Martin posted his story. Until then, I was not even 100% sure he WAS working on a story. To anyone who feels like I denied them a chance at escape by doing this: I am sorry.
Only hoping for the best for you all.
Quoted from lowepg:
I was OK with their big expose (though wish it came sooner), but this last email feels like they want to go beyond exposing Kevin and want to rub his nose in it.
It's just not needed... especially since Kevin hasnt refuted and of the allegations since the article.
Now IF he comes out and spins a new web of shit, well , that different. But right now, this feels like they are just "spiking the football"
The guys made the point.
2nd volley should be reserved for if/when he does not refund.
He has said he would asap. So... give him a chance?
I just tried to write back to Mr. X aka "Greg Wells" (firstname.lastname@example.org) to let him know that I think they went too far with the 2nd letter before anything has happened.
Email bounced back. The account has been deleted.
This might be of some value to you all for your investigation. This is about an hour of video I shot at TPF 2014, 1 on 1 with Kevin Kulek. I have not watched it in a while, but I do recall that we discuss all of the "hot issues" at the time.
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