(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#97 4 years ago
Quoted from dmilo:

Yep, Fox does not want any original Predator movie licenses detracting or causing confusion from the new movie. So that's why skit-B removed the pictures and videos.

There is a shit ton of original Predator stuff available for sale all over the internet. I don't think this was ever given as an explanation, someone came up with this on their own, the problem is Kevin has given no explanation at all, but he did say everything is fine.

#116 4 years ago

I would have to agree, when dealing with a "boutique", you are not dealing with a company factory line made game.

But the owners should be going into that with their eyes open as well.

#120 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

40 units a month? Wow... Who is building their machines? I am curious if they are doing this themselves or working with somebody else to have it assembled, tested and packaged up. I apologize if this info has already been posted. I know that Virtua Pin is building their cabinets.

I'd be curious to know how many Spooky "thought" they could build, before settling on the reality of 2 per week.

#128 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Frolic, I think Chuck tried for 3 but dialed it back for QC.

I believe there are 2 minions working at Spooky?

So 2 people = 2 machines a week. I'll be curious to hear if Skit-B has 10 people to get 10 machines per week out the door.

Has anyone heard much about who is the building team? I'm just curious how they arrived at the 40/month number. They've been pretty clear about it, with giving people expected dates of their machines based on it.

3 weeks later
#335 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

A lot of us remember when SkitB wasn't good with communication before they had ever gotten a dime from anybody.

This is the sad truth. I emailed them and waited several weeks to get on the pre-order list. This was before the 250 spots were all taken. At the time I was blown away that a company looking for $5k from me couldn't even respond to me in a timely fashion.

That was also why I eventually cancelled, even with money from me their MO never changed. The company never transitioned to being remotely professional.

So, yes, you are correct, this is how its been since the beginning.

#391 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

I have not done anything with Fox. I don't plan on it. Even if I had, I don't want to be the guy who's posts sinks the ship so I would keep the info to myself.

Quoted from rommy:

You are saying that you have negative information about this project that will sink the ship? WTF man?!?

To be fair, that isn't what he is saying at all.

#396 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

the CLEAR implication is that Fox has terrible information.

If that was ever the case, I'd be blaming whomever took my money telling me otherwise. I don't personally believe this to be true, btw, just that their business practices stink. I've said it before, I don't think a business that didn't communicate with its customers could exist outside the world of pinball, I know I would be out of business myself.

#473 4 years ago
Quoted from YKpinballer:

a) He stressed "open" and "honest" while giving little actual information of value, and avoiding the primary concern(s) altogether of the status of the license.
b) He attempts to invoke sympathy rather than directly addressing specific concerns
c) He uses a divide and conquer tactic by implying that the "non-buyers" have forced him away from pinside, and so they are the ones responsible for the "buyers" discomfort.
d) He blames pinside for having unrealistic demands for information and communication, when it is his own customers who are trying for weeks or even months to contact him directly and then coming to pinside to try to find somebody who knows how to contact them when it proves impossible. Or maybe to get some actual information from somebody "in the know."
e) He openly admits that he will continue to ignore phone calls and e-mails.
f) The picture he chose to post had no likenesses of Predator in them. Maybe it's parts for Experts of Dangerous, who knows. (I doubt it, but you get the point).

Pretty powerful summary.

Whatever the "truth", this is a terrible way to run a business. They have hopes of releasing many more pins, this is going to be a tough slog.

#520 4 years ago
Quoted from TaylorVA:

Holy shit, NO ONE hates Predator. People want nothing but success for Skit B and hope every owner gets their game in a timely manner. This is not about the game, it is about how a company had seemingly abandoned their customers with no communication under odd circumstances.
Speculation was bred on the silence Skit B was unwilling to break and nothing more.

I would agree, no one wants the game to fail or skitb to fail, but their business practices are being called out.

#539 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

Well, he can work on building games or he can hang out on the computer all day answering stupid questions and apologizing while everything comes to a standstill.
Which option does everyone prefer?

I don't get the either/or argument. They've got a facebook account, they can't post something once a week taking 2 minutes?

1 month later
#588 4 years ago

It's comical that the "new" website (replacing the last one that was only a year old) still has no Predator on it, but funhouse and duckhunt are there.

Update also doesn't name the game or show anything that would identify it as a predator game.

Good luck to those waiting.

1 month later
#764 4 years ago

They posted that photo of 10 playfields on January 25th. So time will tell how long it takes that batch of 10 to be completed. It may very well take more than 10 weeks (All shipping by end of March?), less than 1 per week average. Obviously things will speed up SOMEWHAT, but I don't know if they're going to blow the 2-per-week Spooky average out of the water.

#783 4 years ago

The only way there won't by an all out revolt and hostility towards #2 is if the BULK of Predators are already delivered before it gets trotted out again.

If there are low double digits of Predators delivered when they bring that second game around, things will get ugly for certain.

#818 4 years ago

The crazy thing about pressing on with EOD is that Pinside IS their market and Pinside has spoken. This is not like Stern, where we don't fully understand their relationships with distributors around the world and how games are sold and how many they send and how particular licenses perform.

Skit-B does not have the business acumen for anything close to that. This is basically a homebrew operation that was carried further than most because they picked up a desirable license. Most of their games sold to Pinside. You remove the desirable license that appeals to Pinside from the formula, there is not much left.

Combine that with them planning to have JJP produce the game, meaning they need to "front load" their sales and send hundreds through the factory at a time. This is not a Spooky 2-game-per-week sleeper release.

And I'm not even touching the "poisoning of the well" with how they've treated their honey pot here on pinside since they don't need any more money at the moment.

That they've spent so much money and resources on the game so far (those are vacuum formed ramps we can see in the photos - further than jpop has gotten), but with no apparent business plan.... seems nuts.

#823 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

How would you like paying $7700 for STLE and 15 months later still waiting for code update?

I did but at least it's in my house.

#859 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Waiting for the 30th anniversary I believe.

June 12, 1987 (USA)
Predator, Initial release

Sad thing is by educated guesses, if they get 2 machines out per week there could be people waiting then.

#877 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Just thought I would mention that I have been in contact with Kevin recently via email. All appears good to me, but I urge buyers to make contact with him for yourselves if in any doubt due to the speculation in this thread. (Kevin@SkitBpinball.com)

Best thing he can do to show things are good is start pushing machines out.

#908 4 years ago

This is silly. Stern doesn't take pre-order money either. I don't think anyone here is owed a game by Stern?

1 week later
#1117 4 years ago

The jpop thread is way worse than this one. Everyone there has given up. This thread still has its defenders.

#1148 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

there are nefarious forces out to stop the project

So, it's blame game time? The license was fine until some pinsider called Fox up or something? What else could it be?

#1168 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Kevin is committed to everyone, and you should watch out for more info.

Prediction: "Free" upgrade to Experts of Dangerous for all Predator buyers.

If EoD is still being pressed forward on, then it's not a parts/supplier/vendor issue.

#1170 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Not what I read Aurich.

Can someone then post the email to clear the air? At least Aurich gave us something. If it isn't a terrible email it should be posted cause otherwise we're left to come to our own conclusions. Kevin clicked "send" to the Internet, I don't see why we have to be all PPS about this.

#1174 4 years ago

I still don't see how a phone call to Fox by anyone would make a lick of difference if everything was in order.

#1176 4 years ago

I don't know if Skit-B can claim to be an innocent victim of meddling, the scrubbing of the internet shows some culpability here, knowing whatever license they had was not strong and they were trying to sneak it under the radar. That definitely pre-dated any phone calls 6 months ago.

I'll grant you that if no one meddled, they may very well have pulled it off. I guess people will point fingers in different directions at this point.

#1180 4 years ago

I think at this time some clearing of the air is needed. Kevin needs to say whatever he needs to say, a detailed account of whatever his license is/was, why it was fine for him to collect money from everyone, why he scrubbed the internet, and what happened afterwards.

#1181 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I was also told that they have been working with pinballnews/ Martin? to 'break' the whole story and give it legitimacy while keeping the mud off their faces.

If there's any truth to this, Kevin needs to get ahead of this real fast. Get his side out immediately.

#1186 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

You do realize that if there are ANY legal threats at all, then best MO is to say NOTHING...

I am not sure how it works where you reside, but that is always best practice if legal threats are actually occurring stateside.

I'm not a lawyer, but that would make sense. Bummer for everyone. I hope there is a satisfactory resolution to this.

#1216 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I will still hold true that it is pretty sad if PBN is involved in bringing that to light in anyway.

If there is ANY truth to any of this, this is as big a news story as pinball gets.

#1244 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Beyond that though, the premise is just ridiculous. Does anyone here thing they could stop Stern from shipping WWE by making a few phone calls?

"Hey, um, does Stern have the license to make a WWE game? Oh, they do? Uh, could you like, take it away from them? I don't like wrestling."

All these companies are in the business of making money. No one would just "rip up" a deal, for fun, because some meddling kids called, and not collect their royalties.

#1350 4 years ago

He needs to post photos of completed games, or near completed games. If there's no problem and he wants to put this to rest.

#1379 4 years ago

I'm in the same mess with jpop, my money is gone and no game and no idea if or when i'll get it. I won't leave the hobby if I lose my money though, but I am never pre-ordering anything ever again. Cash & carry from now on.

#1419 4 years ago

Predator, Magic Girl, RAZA, even MMR.... those were announced before the air let out. I don't think there will be a gold rush for crowd funding any longer.

JJP is smart to know that it's over and not do it again with JJP3.

#1430 4 years ago

I wish the cloak & dagger, private emails, etc would stop. Obviously whatever the contents of these emails are incendiary, so lets just get this over with.

#1443 4 years ago

This whole story is a classic example of "where there's smoke there's fire". Skit-b obviously knows the allegations, it would be easy for them to publicly deny them if untrue.

#1483 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I JUST got finished speaking with Kevin. I asked ALL the hard questions. Here is a quick summery:
YES, he is busy.
YES, the license is fine. He is working on getting into a better situation so EVERYTHING can be shown and talked about.
YES, machines are being built as we speak.
YES, jackwads are calling FOX.
YES, there will be a MAJOR announcement within the next 2 weeks with everything you want to know.
Everything is moving forward.

You know, I could believe everything you wrote is correct, with some major parts of the story missing.

Entirely possible that some cash can sooth any licensing issue problems at this time.

#1495 4 years ago

What's crazy is if there is a positive outcome with Fox, he still has to build 250 machines. And we know how smooth that has gone so far.

#1500 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I found what I call "The demand letter".

Even then it was "the project" and "your game".

#1643 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It may be a bad business idea, but he definately does not owe it to pinside to come here.

You're correct, he doesn't have to do anything. We'll see what happens when it's time to drum up sales for title 2.

Stern doesn't come here to drum up sales either. So, they're not trying to have it both ways. If Skit-b wants to wash their hands of pinside, then that is fair, but it has to be for everything.

#1774 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Did EVERYONE just make up this stuff on his word??

Sounds like it. If there was a contract to post (with redacted parts) it should have /would have been posted a long time ago when the questions first started coming up.

#1796 4 years ago

To me, the implication was whatever he's heard "off the record" isn't at odds with what has been posted here on pinside, or he would have said so.

#1810 4 years ago
Quoted from PaulCoff:

If there was never a license, then why did the cabinet production guy post pics of the Predator cabinets and state he wouldn't do business w/out a Predator license contract that he already saw himself? Can't find the cabinet manufacters past posts, but I know its in this Whirlwind Predator thread somewhere.

Yeah, he was pretty black and white about it. I'd love to hear what exactly made him so confident.

#1813 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

he already had the rights and it cost him $150.

You know, seeing how low budget the entire process was, I always wondered where they would have gotten $50k or whatever for the license.

That $150 number makes a lot of sense now. I look forward to hearing the story behind it.

#1815 4 years ago

You'd think they were making it in Russia, how those MP3 sites charge 3 cents a song because their copyright laws are non-existant there.

#1846 4 years ago

From the looks of it, he did not order 250 parts of everything. Well, except skulls. We saw a big box of those. Everything else we've seen has been 10 machines. 10 playfields, 10 cabinets, 10 sets of plastics.

#1876 4 years ago

I'm not even sure if "sabotage" is the right word. Someone called, yeah, but they could have easily been told by Fox on the other line "yeah, we have a deal with Kevin to make predator pinball", and it would have ended there. The person(s) that called would have been satisfied, Kevin's obfuscation would be acceptable at that point and it's over.

Hell, this house of cards could have come down AT ANY TIME with or without someone calling - IF there is truth to any of these stories.

It's not like someone called and managed to kill the deal. That is sabotage. There apparently is no deal. All that happened is it got exposed.

#1880 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Now that he's got a handle on shipping dates, he's going to try to renew the license.
In 2 weeks he will have 10 ready to ship and a new license.

Quite possible, but we've learned from Lebowski how difficult this can be. I don't know if someone at Fox is just going to rubber stamp the game as it stands.

#1883 4 years ago
Quoted from cooldan:

so it's 11 days then? is 17th March the D day?

Don't hold your breath. The "2 week" updates were pretty dicey before all this.

#1970 4 years ago

I think paypal has already answered that by denying the refunds. The only way someone gets their money back now is if Kevin processes it.

#2002 4 years ago

Ben, you are truly one of us!

#2121 4 years ago

Get this girl a sammich, stat! Can't believe what shes done to herself.

#2124 4 years ago

it's crazy when you scroll up a page and compare.

#2156 4 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

This is a pretty sad situation....Hopefully in a few more days things will be much clearer.

Yeah, we're all pretty broken up about Jennifer. Keeping our fingers crossed for her.

#2192 4 years ago

This is the latest and ONLY "official" information we have. Posted 10 days ago:

Quoted from spfxted:

I JUST got finished speaking with Kevin. I asked ALL the hard questions. Here is a quick summery:
YES, he is busy.
YES, the license is fine. He is working on getting into a better situation so EVERYTHING can be shown and talked about.
YES, machines are being built as we speak.
YES, jackwads are calling FOX.
YES, there will be a MAJOR announcement within the next 2 weeks with everything you want to know.
Everything is moving forward.

#2306 4 years ago
Quoted from herbertbsharp:

The truth is ugly that's why no one knows what it is. They don't have good news now or they would release it. What can really happen in the next 3 days?

Something tells me this is not going to end well.


#2325 4 years ago

This license is available if Fox doesn't want to play ball.

#2365 4 years ago

I just hope whatever Kevin ends up saying is a lot better that Principal Skinner's excuses...

To keep saying "everything is good, we're building, yada yada" is insulting to everyone's intelligence. It's time to clear the air.

#2518 4 years ago
Quoted from mufcmufc:

He says that people who have already requested a refund can have one, but he also said a real manufacturer is going to build the game so a carrot has been dangled. That leaves JJP, Stern or Spooky as they (AFAIK) are the only real stateside manufacturers. We know they have a relationship with Spooky so that would seem plausible and JJP has been mooted as the builder of EoD so they also seem plausible.
He said sorry and that they have basically been shit at communicating
Finally he states that they did have the license, but it wasn't what they thought and are in the process of sorting it.
It's a reasonable update but it's worded carefully with no update on progress but the promise of an update soon (so this year sometime)

Well, Jersey Jack is already involved in title 2, so it makes sense that there is a relationship there. The only thing though was $5k never seemed to have enough meat on the bone to bring in a manufacturer, so I'll be curious what comes of that.

More ambiguity about the license, but the very first time we've been told anything other than "the license is fine". He's going to have to explain and come clean about why he scrubbed the internet last year, because that shows motive for hiding something, so he can't just claim to have thought everything was cool.

So what happens to all the film's assets then if the game has gotten to this point without the right license? Everything he's said then about the actors, music from the movie, playfield artwork, Long Tall Sally, none of that was signed off on correctly.

#2550 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

so we've been in talks with Martin from PinballNews.com

Ok, now that Martin's name has come up again, this time by Kevin, I have to think EVERY allegation brought forward in those conspiracy emails has to be accurate.

Quoted from nephasth:

with "real" licensing support

As opposed to "make believe" licensing?

#2601 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

For some reason people who pre-order think it's manifest destiny that every pin gets made.

A lot has changed between 2011 and now. It was all unicorns and rainbows back then.

#2602 4 years ago
Quoted from sd_tom:

Since Kevin is "out of his basement" level of professionalism.. How in the world is he going to be able to transfer the build to a contract manufacturer? You need a pile of paperwork with assembly instructions/training materials, BOMs down to the last screw, .. All of which has to be in stock before the first game is built.. I.e. look at MMR and i feel like you'd multiply the hiccups by 2 or 3 ? Plus, feels also like the price will have to be raised (between proper licensing + CM overhead).
He will have to step up his game significantly (the hard part isnt over yet)

I wonder if this game even has actual cad drawings. Seemed like the prototypes were hobbled together.

#2608 4 years ago

If there's a shred of anything to the story of Kevin having "a" license (but not the right one), he needs to post whatever documents he has and explain how it was an honest mistake, if there's a hope in hell of saving this and his reputation.

#2635 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I would also like to just point out that Heighway announced Alien last year. They keep promising they're gonna show art soon. Nothing yet.

I think there is a LOT to learn from Alien here, since it is the same studio. We haven't even seen a backglass yet and you know that would be shown if they could, and its been how many months.

#2641 4 years ago

I think Kevin mentioning Martin is him trying to get ahead of the story, pretending that this is how he wants to reveal things.

#2680 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

In hindsight, I regret commenting at all on something I was not a part of.

Your black & white claims that the license was fine had a lot to do with buying Kevin several more months.

Quoted from fastpinball:

It was only then that the whole truth came out.

We're still waiting for the whole truth, he's still being purposely unclear about pretty much everything.

#2688 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I've talked to Kevin more than a few times.

He told me how much the licensing costs were.

I asked a few pointed questions and he always answered without any hesitation.

I think you're being kind to think at this stage his problems are just from having an out-of-date license.

#2691 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

That's the course of action most likely to result in a game. If they retain 100 sales (minimum to make it worth any manufacturer's while) that's 125k extra to work with. 75k should cover licensing, leaving 500 extra per game for 3rd party assemble.
They still wouldn't make money, but could at least get out from under things.

The play at this point will likely be more than the 250 machines made available, and anyone who is not a current pre-order will pay more than $5k.

The 250 was always some weird arbitrary number, and since that deal for 250 apparently doesn't exist (maybe never did), the new deal will likely allow for more.

Still doesn't fix the OTHER license issues (Arnold, Ventura, music, art, etc).

#2700 4 years ago

Kevin is also not in a good negotiating position. They knew he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars already from selling their property.

#2719 4 years ago

Fox is not going to waste their time having contracts drawn up for $25 x 250 units ($6250). They've probably spent much more on their lawyers looking into this so far.

#2730 4 years ago

yeah the $50k thing makes more sense.

#2793 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

It might be time to start a thread to at least discuss a full on refund situation. If people make a run at the bank this could get ugly, but it you band together with a plan you might be able to exit in a way that doesn't screw people too bad. Protate refunds based on your money it on a cents on the dollar basis.

If he's spent 15% of the budget on development for instance, you'd get the money you paid in back, minus 15%. That's your loss as an "investor" in a pinball startup.

Beats some people getting paid and some not.

Losing 15% on your "investment" might be a best case scenario at this time. I suspect if Kevin could wash his hands of the whole thing and move on, with the fewest people being hurt, that would be something he'd consider. This game seems like it is a long way away from getting it done "right" - whatever changes and approvals have to happen, getting it ready for manufacturing, the extra costs.

BEST CASE today is no one gets their machines for another year, because we know those machines he was assembling in his kitchen will never be released. Maybe its time to determine the best of bad choices and look at what can be done to allow everyone to walk away.

#2795 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Where did the whole non profit rumor come from?

I found a quote from Kevin himself:

"This is the magic of being a small, non-profit company. Not only does it keep the games more affordable, everything we get goes right back into the company itself as a direct investment towards the next game. "

"We are listed as a non-profit entertainment company, so any revenue that flows through our company needs to stay within our company. This means that every time a Predator goes out the door, we're that much closer to not only making another game, we're that much closer to getting our own fancy CNC machine, silk-screener, injection molder, etc. Whenever something else like that lands in-house, that's one less thing that has to be contracted out, and drives the cost of games down ever further. "

So, not a rumor.

#2797 4 years ago

Then of course there is the "money sucks" quote. Said by every great entrepreneur than can be trusted to steward a million dollars of other people's money.


#2799 4 years ago

His understanding of a "non profit" seems incorrect as well. Just because you are a "for profit" company doesn't mean you don't have the choice to reinvest all revenue back into the company.

I think he was naive and in over his head from the get go.

#2824 4 years ago

Alien apparently will have 3 or 4 toys on it, plus color LCD. And it's priced competitively ($6k).

#2834 4 years ago

I listened to the podcast. It is some sober advice. At this point its all about picking the least worst option.

#2883 4 years ago

Fox is a business, I'm sure they'd rather get a check from Kevin than be involved with some lengthy legal proceeding.

They may very well threaten him with criminal charges, and probably did, but in the end I can see this going away with some money exchanged, and possibly if he does hit the eject button, then no actual product made so no more work for Fox on the license front.

#2888 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

and eats all the losses.

Lets get serious, he is no Gene Cunningham. I'm sure whatever is sitting in that paypal account is all the money he has in the world.

#2903 4 years ago

The theme sold the game. Just compare the sales between it and every other pinball startup and compare what the game is, minus the theme, with every other pinball boutique game.

HAD Kevin made a (real) deal with Fox in the first place, paid them their $50k, that would have been the best money he ever spent.

#2908 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Enough with the silent hermit act. You owe your customers and the pinball community an explanation! You must become part of this dialog. It will never right itself and your reputation will continue to spiral out of control unless you GET OVER HERE AND TALK!!!!!!!!

He's not coming back here. maybe never. but he should stop with the dancing around emails. I like Nate's suggestion of picking up the phone and calling each customer.

#2916 4 years ago

If he followed Nate's advice, the nightmare would at least be over, some people would be left pissed but at least partially made whole, and everyone moves on. That's the only solution that isn't complete madness.

#2925 4 years ago

I'm sure those Back alley skulls and bones could be given out as souvenirs. They aren't predator IP.

#2932 4 years ago

Probably a not-so-insignificant amount of money has been spent on title #2, that came from Predator money, but at this point you have to accept reality and take whatever is left.

#2971 4 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

One thing is for sure, in the FUTURE, this boutique pre pay model isn't going to work out.
Unless there is some kind of third party trust set up to handle all the funds and provide an accounting and transparency to all the owners involved.
That simple. Nobody will ever be stupid enough to send in another dime on unproven stuff without US demanding a WHOLE LOT more up front.
If we accept it in the future then you get what you deserve.

There's been plenty of "kickstarters" that fall apart. The whole idea will probably die. The difference here is we're all whales putting in big money, not $50.

#3114 4 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

the proposed Q & A sounds like another stalling tactic to buy even more time.

Yup, can just imagine:

"Kevin will do his Q&A in 2 weeks"

#3203 4 years ago
Quoted from Luckydogg420:

Would buyers be ok with a $4750 game that was made in China?
I believe that's the only place where this could happen. I think that stern or JJP would want to much production money to build the game because wages are a lot more in USA then China. Could homepin be the only option to build this? Could homepin build this after thunderbirds, for a cost that won't require more capital injected into the project?
Whysnow, you think it could be built for $4750, whom would build it for that price, if it's not being assembled in Kevin's basement?

homepin's pricing has shown that China is not a solution for cheap pins.

Kevin getting a bunch of bros to assemble things on his mother's kitchen table is the only way you'll get a "cheap" pin. If there was other ways, other companies would have done it by now for the competitive edge.

#3204 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

I just really...really...really hope he kept a decent ledger.

Something about his way of doing things ("money sucks") makes me strongly suspect all there is is a bank account. Whatever is in there is what's in there. He probably wasn't living a lavish lifestyle, but expenses were probably not carefully planned or itemized.

#3218 4 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

publicly available details

that's what a whois is.

#3241 4 years ago

Can anyone chime in you has received a reply from Kevin? If he's sitting at his computer all day long replying to people, there must be lots of Pinsiders getting responses.

And if no one here has gotten a reply, then that fills in more of the picture.

#3284 4 years ago

So.... no one has received an email from his hours of responding to everyone?

#3308 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

God help him if he doesn't. If this goes south he's on the hook for everything personally. How would he be reporting $750,000 of **income**? PayPal 1099's. That just can't be true.

Stranger things have happened, and he hasn't presented himself as someone with a team of suits working behind the scenes.

#3454 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

what came to light were what I considered guidelines for acceptable fair use, not what I would consider adequate for a commercial project.

This is probably the most illuminating explanation we've had yet with what the heck has been going on with the license (or lack of).

#3460 4 years ago

Beyond the license, there are so many things that were going wrong with the manufacturing. Kevin's plan to have his buds build machines at his mom's house was nuts, it would have fallen apart eventually. The money management seemed poor. Very poor business management. Obviously very poor customer service.

The license drama brought this all to a head but I don't know if this would have ended up well no matter what. The money probably would have ran out, and let's face it, title 2 was not exactly going to raise easy money to cover any shortfalls.

#3563 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

if it wasn't for some of these posts by members asking uncomfortable questions, how long would have this charade continued.

The light being shown on everything is not because of Kevin. It is because of this thread. Most recently, it was because Kevin sent out a mass email saying he was sitting at his computer responding to everyone. Because of the activity in this thread, that was exposed as another lie.

If everyone took the weekend off, and gave Kevin more time to do whatever it is that he's doing, none of the true story would be bubbling to the surface as it has.

The vigilante justice isn't the right path, but asking tough questions and analyzing the information that is available is exactly what should be going on here.

#3588 4 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

It appears that Steven Woods does exist, and is a real person:

Ah, it's this guy who appeared in their Predator promo video.


#3627 4 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

Even if there were individuals who contacted Fox, they may have helped stop this in its tracks before things get worse and even more money is spent, before the project implodes.

Likely only affected the timing of when things imploded. They probably stopped those first 10 machines from rolling out, and that is why Whysnow is so pissed.

With what we've seen and learned, there is no way the Predator build would have lasted all 250 machines. It was destined to fall apart eventually, whether from Fox intervention or business reality.

#3631 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

A scam to rip the clients off, or to rip FOX off?

I would agree, the original "victim" is Fox, being ripped off for their IP.

Problem is, that decision caught up with everything else and has now put every buyer's money in danger.

#3726 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If you think about it, there were plenty of show pictures for years all over the web.
We think that pinball is some giant thing, but only a few weirdos are really into it.

From what's been said in this thread, it wasn't "the phone call to Fox" that shut this thing down, it was the apparent ignoring of a cease & desist and Kevin pressing on with things, despite that. That seemed to have escalated it with Fox to where we're at today. That is just what I'm going off from public information and we haven't heard otherwise.

#3739 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

The second "wrong" was the person or persons that put a stop to it?

I'm not even sure if the person who called could be labelled as "putting a stop to it". All they did was call to make sense of all the obfuscation and ambiguity about everything having to do with the license. Fox could have easily told them that there was a license and that's the end of it.

#3748 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

One could call and ask if Predator was available for licensing in a pinball machine. If the answer was "YES" you could hang up the phone.
OR, one could call and when the answer was "YES", then direct Fox's attention to the SkipB website and laugh with delight.

Well, yes, the masked crusaders may not be heroes in all this. But obviously the buck stops somewhere else.

#3755 4 years ago

We really need Kevin to explain what he "thought" his license was. When he said "no problem" for Arnold in it, who told him that? Sames goes for all the assets.

I do believe he "thought" he was good to go, but how the hell did that ever come to be, and on what planet?

Where things get darker is what were his motivations with scrubbing the internet, and stopping to mention the game. Who told him to do that? Where did that advice come from and how did he think he was still good to go for selling 250 machines at that time?

#3772 4 years ago
Quoted from MapleSyrup:

Anybody who's met the guy knows immediately that he had no I'll intentions. Naive? Yes. Scam? No way!

I agree. But how he's choosing to handle things, the decisions he is making RIGHT NOW will determine how he'll go down in pinball history.

If there is anyway to eject, and pay people most of their money back, he's got to do it. Vid's explanation of why he'll need legal retainers notwithstanding.

#3823 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

FYI: Just got this mail from Kevin:
As you all could imagine, over the last few days I have received quite a few emails and inquiries that must all be individually addressed and simply cannot be handled in the course of a few short hours. I am here, I am listening, and I am returning correspondence as quickly as I can. I would simply like to let you all know that you are not being ignored, and if you have sent me a message within the last few days, the messages are being answered in the order in which they were received and you will be receiving a personal response very shortly.
Thank you,

I just checked, there's been 600+ posts since this post yesterday, which really set things off.

#3833 4 years ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

This quote is from the original "Predator pinball at Michigan Pinball Expo" thread.

Wow, it's really interesting to go read those old threads. His response was to this guy, 2 years ago:

Quoted from BigPhil:

Just one thing which I don't believe anyone has questioned. Forgive me if it's already been covered though.
Can you offer any proof that you do actually have the license from Fox to sell a Predator themed machine? I know you've discussed the fact that you're not allowed to talk about the terms etc.
I know you've done a lot of work already, which you've shared with the community, and not asked for a penny yet but at the minute, it's still a home/fan project which I believe anyone can undertake without license.
Poeple have been burned in the past and I guess I'm just after as much reassurance as possible that this will actually happen.
I'm a trusting guy. There's not a lot of that left in the world. I've been burned in the past myself for being too trusting. My word is worth more than money. I'd like to think there are still others out there. I want to believe this will come good.
I've pre ordered. But that's my heart over ruling my head. It's Predator FFS!!!!

#3841 4 years ago

I've been reading The Dude's thread of Predator news.... some interesting quotes. One of the most interesting was only from Dec 16, 2014. Kevin attempts to absolutely squash the rumors at that time, but based on what we've learned since, things were going on in high gear behind the scenes then. I don't know what possessed Kevin to be so conclusive then, if in fact "our licensing deal really wasn't what we thought it was" (said by kevin this week).

Licensing is obviously a big deal, and while these types of things have simply been accepted in the past, indie pinball (yes, I'm going to keep calling it that) is potentially a completely different beast altogether. Gathering copyright and likeness permissions is a huge, daunting process, but is very rewarding in the end. That being said, this is something you need to have reasonably taken care of before making any major announcements or commitments, and we've done a lot of work and spent countless hours making sure everyone involved is happy with how things turned out. I have many stories I could tell here, but I think I will wait until a time when there's a little less actual news to catch up on At any rate, I can see how one might wonder if a small indie startup would be able to handle this sort of task, but it is certainly not an issue over here. Don't expect any wild omissions or absences when you open up your first Skit-B new-in-box!

I don't know how he can claim "countless hours" working on the license when he basically had next to nothing.

#3939 4 years ago
Quoted from wrig54:

why have they sat on this information for eight weeks without sending it to everyone?

Only speculating, but from what we've heard, there has been communication going back and forth between Kevin and Fox during this time, so is it possible they were asked not to say anything while that happened?

I can see why it would benefit both Fox and Skit-b if grenades weren't thrown while they were speaking.

Obviously something has changed recently though. I'm as curious as anyone to learn the real story.

#3969 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

For those that are all for mr x contacting Fox concerning the license for pred, why are you against the same actions for all other games from other manufacturers? Has anyone seen proof that Stern actually has the full IP rights for WWE? If the lesson learned here is supposed to be trust noone, then why would you not support people actively reaching out to all IP holders?

There was suspicion of Predator. They called. It's been apparently proven. No other manufacturer is under that suspicion. But if it makes you feel better, have at it.

#3975 4 years ago

This is like the tv show Cheaters, where the dude who was caught being a dirty dog tries to turn the tables "You had me followed?!!?!?!" queue the outrage.

#3983 4 years ago

You know it's over when Whysnow isn't even sticking with the denial arguments anymore, it's finger pointing and lashing out.

#4026 4 years ago

I'm sure a lot of whatever is happening behind the scenes right now is to SAVE EoD. Somehow pull something off where the company can still exist and proceed with their next game, which they've apparently spent a lot of time (and money) working on.

#4033 4 years ago

Yup. Exactly. Just another in the long line of questionable business decisions that even if this license thing didn't blow up there were a million other ways things could have imploded.

#4193 4 years ago

Wow. Just wow. Worse than I imagined. I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was naive. But asking for everyone to pay AFTER he received the C&D is outrageous.

Heighway should not touch this.

#4209 4 years ago

If Heighway were to ever do a Predator, I hope they do a fresh in-house design. Maybe for the 30th anniversary in a couple of years.

#4224 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

At this point I’m severing all my business relationships with Skit-B

You're a day late with that one. You're going to have to own up to your part of this, trying to temper people while you knew exactly what was going on.

#4246 4 years ago
Quoted from Erik:

After reading the wordpress site, at least now I have a pretty good idea of who Mr. X is. Disappointing he sat on this info at the request of Fox's attorney (to whom he was not beholden) while there was still a chance for some buyers to exercise paypal disputes.

I'm not going to blame any of the messengers. They may or may not have been aware of any paypal ticking timeline. Likely was not something they considered.

Lots of anger tonight, but let it aim at the right person.

#4390 4 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I've not understood why anyone gave him this new found credibility... where is his history and proven track record of success and solid practice? He sure seems to be doing alot of 'advising' recently... funny coming from the guy still trying to get his first pin product out.

He's been pushed as the guy to save jpop as well. People talking big before they've produced anything is what got us to where we are today.

#4432 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Better if Kevin had gotten away with theft so long as the first few buyers got their pins.

I think some people are going to see this as Kevin not trying to screw pinball people, he was really trying to screw Fox. And that would be ok by them.

Problem is, it was a bed of lies, constantly, to pinball people. That, and his actions screwed the pinball people.

#4520 4 years ago
Quoted from Apollyon:

To the extent that Whysnow knew about the licensing problems, and took issue with people exposing SkitB's deception, that seems greasy. Like he wanted people to just shut up and let SkitB get the first 10 unlicensed games out (likely one of which to him).

Hold on, didn't Whysnow himself say he'd been receiving these emails, the same info that we saw tonight?! And even with that, he still sat here for weeks arguing with everyone? Desperately hoping those first 10 games would get made so he would get his? Disgusting.

#4680 4 years ago

Who got the most recent refund? We should compare that timeframe with the weird "Paypal is a great partner" email. If no one has gotten refunds since then, that would mean its likely Paypal froze the account at that time.

They probably told him then he needed to prove he was shipping and won't give him the money until he does. Now that doesn't answer how much money he withdrew from paypal prior to then, but it's something.

#4682 4 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

This was posted by spooky pinball this morning:
"Honesty... Always the best policy. Man I hate seeing this crap. We put a ton of time and energy into helping the Skit B project, and this really sucks. We hope it ends well regardless for all involved.
For the record, our 2nd game is a license. We have a real agreement. The subject is involved, we're using their artist, their input, and can't wait to show you this can work in a company our size.
Keep the faith... We are doing the same.
I've read the Pinside stuff and here's exactly what we knew. We busted ass to help get the plastics and playfields done. A total of 10 each were ever made. That black light effect was promoted by them as a feature LONG before they asked us to find a way to make it work. When I think now of the months we WASTED making that happen to any degree of success... not cool. A few months back I began to get suspicious, and just flat out quit working on anything that wasn't ours. Never heard from their camp again.... Been asked a lot about this the last few weeks... was really hoping it wasn't true, just like everyone else. Sadly it appears not to be the case... BUT... we help lots of other small companies, and lots of other good people. Sure not going to change that, just will use this as a learning experience and move on."

I think I speak for many when I say we don't blame Spooky for being a vendor. The difference was they didn't come here and defend any skit-b practices, or the lack of answer for the license, etc.

They certainly used YOUR product and goodwill to demonstrate they were making progress, but that is on them, not you.

#4689 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Let's say he did pull it off under the radar.

Thinking about this.... his critical mistake was turning this into a relatively large project of 250. "Under the radar" would be creating 4 prototypes and selling those on the downlow to private collectors.

But hundreds of people have been harmed from his reckless choices now.

#4739 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I am prepared to be blasted over this post as well. I started typing and this is where it ended up. I wanted everyone to know that I sincerely had the best intentions.

As someone who has given you shit, I appreciate the detailed recap. I can understand that you were lied to like everyone else.

#4778 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

You would have thought most would have learned from 6 years ago not to preorder shit.

Predator came around the start of the recent pinball surge. It was many people's first NIB (or supposed to be). What happened 6 years ago was way before many's time.

#4802 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Oh I let Martin know of my disgust at his decision to keep quiet. Y'know I even asked that guy directly for information and he gave me the brush off. As far as I'm concerned he's no friend of the pinball community.

Martin was a true journalist. He worked through his due diligence until he was satisfied enough to put the article online. He also tried to save the project with the connections he had, knowing anything else would kill it.

#4857 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

but if you posted it here it probably would have triggered more subjective arguing instead of objective decision making or discussion.

I agree. These emails have been floating around a while, it was only Pinball News' definitive report, with opportunity for Kevin to respond to the allegations that tipped everything over. That report took time. Anything that might have come before it would have just added to the noise.

The "Predator doesn't have a license" has been a debate for a LOOOONG time. It was always "Kevin said everything is cool", and he was even saying that in recent days.

So I agree, posting of these emails weeks ago would have done nothing, they would have been shot down as more rumor and noise.

#4905 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?

Money that has "vanished" from the pin economy, for certain. Those machines will never be delivered, sold, flipped, people get tired, buy something else.

#5108 4 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

I have spoken with various individuals today, and Kevin still contends he has/had a license to produce these machines.

Let's see it.

#5110 4 years ago

You know, I swear there would be sympathy for him if he produced a document between himself and Fox for ANYTHING (just not the right thing), and stick to the "it wasn't what I thought it was".

But if such a thing doesn't exist, then the story as we've learned it is the way it is.

#5233 4 years ago
Quoted from unigroove:

Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

There's been "a run on the bank", it's over.

#5259 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I specifically questioned if he had an EIN, corporation charter, LLC. No. This is all on his SSN.

ouch. what a mess.

2 weeks later
#7116 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Predator has been on the web for years, Kevin hit up all the major pinball shows, gave speeches, had websites up, posted videos on Youtube - Fox never knew.

Well, as the story goes, the reason all the websites were scrubbed was because of a Cease & Desist, so there was some awareness by Fox. But we don't know if Kevin's game of keeping things on the down low after that would have succeeded, especially with a 2 year+ production build.

#7457 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Remember this is the same rocket scientist who (apparently) thought Fair Use and Non-Profit would allow him to make a Predator game.
"We have the legal right to make these games"

Ben, you called it.

#7482 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

Except that he says he actually thought he figured out a new licensing model that nobody had ever figured out before.
He says:
"And, to the point where we first started this thing and we had what we thought was an agreement, I thought I was being clever. Like we figured something out, and we were doing it right and everyone else was doing it wrong for the last, like, forever."


That, combined with details like not setting up a corporation. You just have to shake your head.

#7563 4 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

What I find troubling is that not one single vender(Fast, Virtual Pin, The dude that made the plastics) asked for a copy of the licence agreement before they took on the project? How unprofessional are these guys to take on a project without confirming there is a proper licence in place before replicating licenced material?? I would say that everyone involved with the production of this project dropped the ball. I never thought business owners would be so unprofessional.

From what we've been told, the lies told to the vendor partners were far less ambiguous than the non-answers we were given. The cabinet guy said he had detailed conversations with Kevin about Fox approving the artwork, things that got changed for the license, etc.

It's these little details that will bury Kevin now, he can't just claim he thought he was all good.

#7570 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

I wonder if their were sign contracts with these vendors or was it done on a handshake? Kevin Kulek did tarnish their reputations with his lies. Do they have actual damages that they could sue for?

suing would be pointless, we're all hoping he can refund the money he's got.

There was a hint of trouble from a comment his wife made about trying to get money back from the cabinet guy. Any extra money the vendors take at this point is coming from the communal buyer's pot. So they're going to have to be careful about PR blowback if they get outed trying to take more when buyer's haven't been made whole yet.

#7814 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

He basically says he has asked the FBI for assistance as the number of victims is so large

Full on shit storm now.

1 week later
#8148 3 years ago

I can't imagine any lawyer's advice would be for them (the lawyer) to stay in the shadows. If nothing else, that lawyer should be the one working interference between Kevin and everyone. Makes me wonder if he even has real legal representation.

4 weeks later
#8592 3 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

his attorney, identified as Mr. Jon Emaus from Brighton, Michigan

finally got this nugget.

#8733 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

In addition, we are examining the requests for refunds, including "Enaud's" related to this Complaint, to determine if there is a waitlist person to take his spot and what, if any fees, will be deducted from his monies consistent with the terms of the deposit.

This is disgusting. They are actually trying to hang onto the "refunds when a waitlister takes your place". Even though the games has officially been cancelled and Kevin said everyone will get a refund. They are trying to use their refund policy as a way to stiff people since no one is on wait list.

#8782 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Bryce was kind enough to return my call this afternoon. He was very kind and we had a very pleasant conversation. In fact, he was ***MOST*** interested in the fact that I had Mr. Kulek's attorney contact information.

I can only hope that he'll be sending the C&D's to Kevin's lawyer, which will officially end this. I'm sure right now Kevin's lawyer is just repeating Kevin's lies about there possibly being a deal since he doesn't know otherwise.

#8864 3 years ago
Quoted from Concretehardt:

What's odd is that we know Kevin spent some of the money, so if he is refunding some in full doesn't that mean that others are gunna get screwed?

Likely anyone who paid other than paypal.

#8945 3 years ago

If it's Kevin just refunding people during the middle of the night, he has no idea who has had charge backs. This is a mess.

#9111 3 years ago

Wow, what a kick in the nuts.

So, then it was NOT a Paypal move, because they wouldn't have done that. It was some hair brained Kevin thing at 3am.

Perhaps he had to go through the motions of "attempting" a refund, for legal defense reasons.

#9125 3 years ago

paypalsucks.com is full of stories of vendors having their accounts frozen and money seized.

Based on the lawyer's comments about paypal being uncooperative, I wonder if paypal is literally sitting on seized money, and no one is taking their phone calls.

How paypal can do this indefinitely is strange, but could be what is going on.

#9144 3 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

ive never heard of a negative balance. but anyway... continue

I've had a negative balance. Someone did a chargeback on me. Paypal basically told me to make them whole or they would take the money back some other way.

#9149 3 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

I can't help but think that PayPal would allow even more credit on the account past the current balance. He's effectively turning that account into a credit card.

It's chargebacks. That is the credit card companies holding power over Paypal. Not about Kevin getting credit.

#9232 3 years ago

skit-b didn't even have their own forum here for a long time. It was only last year (1 year) that the additional forums opened up. Well after when most people sent in their big payments.

1 month later
#9380 3 years ago

I can only imagine that Kevin didn't like all the billable hours coming in because his lawyer was the one talking to everyone on the phone, since Kevin won't talk to anyone.

1 month later
#9543 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Allegedly the code was finished.

The code was always their strongest asset. That (and the theme) basically sold everyone.

3 weeks later
#9715 3 years ago
Quoted from PPS:

where on earth did you come up with that interpretation of fair use?

Same place Kevin did?

#9724 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Is ignorance a good defense ?

Short of some civilian buying the game at a flea market and not knowing the history behind it, it would be pretty hard to say the buyer can hide behind an ignorance defense.

#9732 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

Is there not a difference between selling something for the money you put into it and selling something for profit? I specially stated selling it to recoup his costs. Not for the intention of making profit.

Hence the whole song & dance of Skit-B being a "non-profit".

Yes, he literally thought doing that meant he could sell 250 Predator machines under fair use.

#9737 3 years ago
Quoted from PinRebel:

And why is nobody going bat sh.t crazy over all the people that create pinball toppers and other mods using copyrighted IP? It's everywhere.

Because several hundred grand of everyone's money wasn't absconded by the topper people. This game is radioactive.

#9739 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

yea, for instance the johnny mneumonic rethemed as matrix and the Hollywood Heat rethemed as goonies. I guarantee both of those sold for many times fair market value of the original table.

The difference here is the scope of the lies and deceit. I said it earlier, but if Kevin hadn't pre-sold 250 of them, lied to everyone about their legal status, and just made a few prototypes... those would have sold and no one batted an eyelash.

#9899 3 years ago
Quoted from NinJaBooT:

How much Pred money was spent on EOD

Those sneak photos we saw of EoD, sitting in a hotel room, you were able to see actual ramps on it and it looked really far along in a lot of ways. Since EoD had no pre-orders, then the money came from somewhere.

2 months later
#10138 3 years ago

At this point, with criminal charges off the table, what exactly is the worst thing that can happen civilly? Let's assume he doesn't show up and receives a default judgement against him... then what?

Pretty insane that hundreds of thousands of dollars can just be taken like this.

#10145 3 years ago

Wouldn't it also be possible that Keith gets a judgement for $x, whatever his clients are owed, Kevin cuts a check for that amount, and then pockets the rest? And he won't even have any court ordered collections on him at that point?

The whole thing is messed up.

1 month later
#10195 3 years ago
Quoted from maddog14:

It really makes one wonder what constitutes a crime in USA these days.

What's odd about this one, is unlike jpop where jpop wasted all the money and ran it into the ground where there was no hope of finishing, Kevin has said there WAS money and everyone WOULD get a refund. But short of credit card chargebacks, no one has seen any money and there's never been an explanation of what happened to it. So, literally hundreds of thousands of dollars is unaccounted for.

2 weeks later
#10234 3 years ago
Quoted from Breaking_Dad:

Does fox not see the potential....why didn't they just "take over"......finish them....sell them.....cut KK out......boom....everyone's happy.......?!..............Joey

I don't think Kevin's mom would let the Fox people into her kitchen to build machines.

#10254 3 years ago
Quoted from PeterG:

I just wonder:
If he would have kept it to a machine or 5, nobody would have taken notice, like the guys who did the Matrix. No license issue there, right?
If he could have rebranded the predator theme to something else and settle with FOX on the mistake made, he could have build a set of pins, or not?

Where he went wrong was selling 250 machines (and the lies that went with it). Had he just made a few custom games and sold them on the down low, no one would notice or care.

1 month later
#10438 3 years ago

What is happening today? I know legal moves slow, so is this just procedural stuff?

3 weeks later
#10501 2 years ago

I don't think there is any news, and we're not going to hear much about wheels in motion. Obviously if/when some sort of judgement comes it'll be posted here instantly.

1 month later
#10579 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

opposite for me. I actually smiled when I got the chapter 7 letter in the mail yesterday. It makes me feel good to know that now he and his family will all have to attempt to file because of his lies. More of the money out of his pocket at minimum. I have also enjoyed the entire process of discovery and depositions. It is like a bad movie and I get to be part of the fun.

Revenge is a dish best served cold.

Or if you rather...

Revenge is like serving cold cuts.

#10589 2 years ago
Quoted from c508:

The 113 page filing (forms 101, 106A-J, etc.) includes goodies like the full list of Kulek’s assets and liabilities (including the value of his Dodge Dakota, trailer, personal computer, and clothing), his income (spoiler: “zero”), his wife’s income, their declared monthly expenses (utilities, food, etc.), and a full list of debtors and amount owed to each of them.

Is there any explanation of what happened to the money?

He must have declared it at some point, right? Otherwise he would have big IRS problems? So that money came in, but where did it go out?

I'm suspecting much is left unsaid.

#10702 2 years ago
Quoted from Stones:

he was irresponsible and going after the quick buck. He knew what he was doing. He could have stopped his con early on.

Basically, the "worst-case-scenario" happened because of his actions. Everything came crumbling down and tons of people were hurt.

The heat was on him for some time, just look at how long his web site was scrubbed and how long he kept the deceit going after that.

How simple could it have been to cancel the game when the initial cease and desist came in, tell everyone he "lost" the license and couldn't proceed. Hell, he might have had many people stay on with a rethemed game.

#10705 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

does anyone know how you go find what the website looked like at different times in the past few years?


You can see the original site and the scrubbed one, but we can't identify the exact date. Old site was still there july 20, 2013. new site was archived oct 3, 2013. (So it was definitely scrubbed before the went to Expo 2013).

I'm sure the original predator thread would discuss the new website as well.

#10706 2 years ago

Reviewing the chain of events... the website was scrubbed when they had only taken $250 from people. The big money ask came after the scrub.

Hard to defend that.

#10836 2 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

I'm dying to see his returns.
I'm 100% certain that he never claimed all that income. I have no concrete proof, but where did all the money go? Since he didn't refund it, it's income and it's taxable.

I'm now wondering if the IRS is the reason he has no money left. Maybe he did file, cut a big check to IRS, the business itself is/was unsustainable, and now he goes bankrupt.

3 weeks later
#11169 2 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

My apologies if this is an "off-topic" post. Posting this here because this thread is saturated with annoying posts from the following user:

I thought that 'kaneda' guy was banned? Or is he just banned under his other account? How is this not blatantly obvious?

Many, many times. For many, many accounts. He's already been let back after promising to change, then getting perma banned again. Then of course is the fact that links to his websites were also banned. Apparently he's found the backdoor way to pinside, just pretend you're a woman.

#11297 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

A lot of these guys took parts with them when they left the project because Kevin didn't have any money to pay them.

This is nuts. The mystery of where high six figures of money disappeared to has to be explained.

#11336 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

it doesn't seem any different than what you accuse Kevin of doing.

There's still the little matter of several hundred grand disappearing. Don't think anyone in this thread can take ownership of that.

"at least" in jpop's case, the guy was a moron, and spent all the money... but we all have a good idea that it's gone for good because it's clear where it went, and there is none left to make anyone a pinball machine. In Predator's case it's a huge mystery.

1 month later
#11693 2 years ago

Just want to throw this out there for Keith or anyone else interested... in another thread Kevin had said this:


We have been working very closely with PayPal for a long time to make sure that every penny that goes through us is well-protected and secure. They have been extremely helpful and have developed a strong personal rapport with us that affords us the luxury of open and direct communication in any and all situations. With the security of all funds being absolutely paramount in ANY foreseeable case, there are processes that must be followed and while they can take a bit of time to work with, the end result is that even if we were to literally die or encounter a license issue or disappear to Venezuela or whatever other rumors there may be, we do so without risking a cent of your money.

My take away reading that at the time, and still is today, is that Paypal's red flags went up when so much money went into his account and to protect themselves they likely froze it.

Kevin got some of the money obviously, because we know about the house now, and the undocumented business expenses, but the bulk of the money is still unaccounted for.

Likely Paypal can fill in some of these blanks, and who knows, maybe they still have some (after dealing with all the chargebacks). But you'd have to take it up with them.

#11719 2 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Kevin would have been foolish to lie under oath in the 341 meeting, especially when being questioned by a litigator who probably already knew the facts. The penalties are severe.

Ask Martha Stewart how lying after the fact goes.

4 months later
#12265 2 years ago
Quoted from DutchTommy:

for all you guys which think that the kulek family are eating straight from the dumpster like some homeless people... your wrong. so wrong
because each kid got a brand new laptop from santa.. and apparantly he got 5 of them. so go figure where he got that money from, his wife even said it.. its from daddy.
Merry Christmas everyone!
and i hope that justice will serve somewhere in 2017 even though i have not a horse in this race.. i feel their pain.

WTF? We've long since gone into crazy land, but this is insane. To be caught up in a challenged bankruptcy, US Marshal orders to arrest you, and not only do you give ALL of your children a laptop, you post the video publicly?

Just when you thought this couldn't get any more insane.

#12376 2 years ago