(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

5 years ago

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  • Latest reply 6 days ago by Mr68
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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (3 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (3 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (3 years ago)

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#7608 5 years ago
Quoted from asay:

I've summed up the article for everyone:
skitb (Click image to enlarge)

There's probably a good chance that this is what could've happened.

Most license holders are ok with fans doing one-off items that aren't intended to be made for sale, so long as it's clear that it was unofficial and/or done by a fan.

When you start getting into the actual production and sale of products, fair-use no longer applies. Then you're using someone else's property to create your product and make money from it.

This is like asking to borrow someone's car to make a trip grocery store. Then making the leap in logic that since you have the car anyway, that you can resell everything that's in it--including the spare tire.

#7634 5 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

things that make you go hmmm…. (Click image to enlarge)
Interesting detailed post… Maybe too detailed… Look, he's from TN… That's really just one letter away from TX… I bet there are a lot of Trees in TN… Both Trees and Witches burn… But Trees are made of wood… and wood floats… Just like Witches!!! And Crashes Avatar is Wet Willie, WHO ALSO FLOATS!!!!


1 week later
#8170 5 years ago
Quoted from Zampinator:

How many lawyers are on pinside!? And do I/we get a discounted "pinsider" rate, God forbid I ever need one of your services?

Payment can normally be accepted in the form of quality cat videos.

4 weeks later
#8675 5 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

y'all need a politician (&/or a higher level judge) in MI who is a pinball/arcade fan on your side. Then the wheels will turn.
put out feelers...

Put a machine on freeplay in the court house.

2 weeks later
#9247 4 years ago
3 months later
#9960 4 years ago
Quoted from asay:

Like? I've never heard of anyone going for jail for no other reason than being poor. Even areas that tried to make homelessness illegal were shot down by the supreme court.

#9964 4 years ago
Quoted from Ozzie:

Why does everyone assume that he is out of money? He collected hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars. He didn't produce anything - even if he was a horrendous businessperson, he could not have spent all of it.
My guess is that he has spent some of it, but no where near all of it. He probably reads these and is hoping all of you give up and let him keep the money. He probably could live off that money for a long time without getting a real job.
Although not a Predator buyer, I am watching with interest and think Keith the lawyer will end up collecting on this.

It's the easiest thing in the world to spend someone else's money. It wouldn't surprise me at all if it was all gone.

In JPop's interview this past week, he said all his preorder money was gone. But granted, he's been going at it a few years longer than the Predator project was active.

#9966 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

So, habitual liars only tell the truth when it comes to money?

It was kind of obvious even before he said anything on the record about it because of the Pintasia situation.

#9968 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Have you seen his wardrobe?

That doesn't mean anything. Plenty of folks with money don't flaunt it by wearing diamond studded dinner jackets while out and about. Some just like to go with the ol' jeans and t-shirt. You can't always tell how wealthy (or not) someone is by what they like to wear.

#9970 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Oh my gawd. Must I put a smilie face on every joke I post?

Nah. I loled at your post before posting my more serious follow-up.

#9985 4 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Hey, that's the same as my luggage.

Quoted from Mr68:

Doesn't work.

What are you doing fiddling with taxman's luggage?

#10002 4 years ago
Quoted from Mudflaps:

You guys are trying to get to 10,000 posts? That's really sad. Don't you have anything else to do?

That's a completely ridiculous question.

Quoted from Mudflaps:

You should all be outside. It's a nice day.

It's basically a monsoon up here in the northeast right now

#10008 4 years ago
Quoted from Mudflaps:

How many posts was that? Did I win?

Like on the price is right, you went right over the actual post.

1 week later
3 months later
#10213 4 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Yup I got that same feeling and telling me that "the wheels of justice turn slowly" is not helping one bit and is very lame at this point.
John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.

The time lag doesn't necessarily mean it's all billable time. Cases can stall until a scheduled court date comes up.

#10224 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

On topic... Can i take the loss/theft on my 2015 taxes?

There was a post on RGP with some info about that which I linked somewhere in this thread or the zidware thread.

[Edit] found it


1 week later
#10252 4 years ago
Quoted from PeterG:

If he would have kept it to a machine or 5, nobody would have taken notice, like the guys who did the Matrix. No license issue there, right?

Strictly speaking, *any* number violates IP and copyright laws.

However, for the most part, fan-made stuff is generally treated with leniency so long as the person is only creating for their self and not making any money at it. Partially, it's is goodwill towards the fanbase and partially not worth the expense of sending lawyers after a project that small.

In the case of skit-b, Kevin inteded to build several games for profit using someone else's IP and copyrights.

Quoted from PeterG:

If he could have rebranded the predator theme to something else and settle with FOX on the mistake made, he could have build a set of pins, or not?

I imagine he could have used an unlicensed theme, however, a good part of the draw for this particular game was the theme. There's no telling what it would have been like if it were something else entirely.

1 month later
#10473 4 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Our tax dollars at work once again.

Quoted from cfh:

It's your money not tax money. It was filed in the wrong court. It cost him money to refile. Well your money.

I imagine it's both--the court's time and the lawyer's time and the costs for filing fees.

#10485 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

A whole lot of conjecture going on.

That's what happens when there's no actual news

1 month later
#10642 3 years ago
Quoted from Grinder901:

I'm very surprised there aren't daily bags of dicks arriving at his home

You could always mail him an anonymous potato.


Or an envelope with glitter:


#10677 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Exactly what I said. It apparently wasn't his intention. Period. He loves or loved pinball. He wanted to succeed. He messed up big time. Yep, I'd be pissed if I lost money but all of the people continuing to vilify him, post personal information, encourage folks to go after his wife and small business, it's all wrong. He has been humiliated. He isn't living the high life by any means. When does it end? What if someone does something over the top (such as harming him or his family)? Then what? Do you feel good then?

Everyone deverves the benefit of the doubt, but the facts have already come out on this situation. You should probably take the time to read this:


#10680 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

You are making stuff up now. This is simply just not true. Fox could not have them confiscated, that is ridiculous.

An IP owner can sue and demand the immediate destruction of any and all unauthorized materials.

#10701 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not stolen property. You can't apply reclaimation policies to creations that were created without license. They were created illegally, not created and than stolen.
It would fall under civil ip laws - not criminal theft

I guess I should clarify my earlier statement. I was thinking in terms of only when Kevin would have possession of the materials (since they would not yet have been delivered to customers). The IP owner can sue for the destruction of the materials in his possession. However, once customers have them, like Neo says, all the IP owner can really do is issue a recall notice.

#10723 3 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production. Be it right or wrong, I seriously doubt that the licensing issue would have been a problem.

Quoted from RobT:

Complete nonsense.

If Kevin did this whole thing completely above board, there probably would have been no problem and the mess that resulted might not have happened.

But, the licensing costs might have been too prohibitive to even bother with starting the project anyway.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

#10728 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I just wish he would put them in the public for play rather than stashing them away.
I am a bit miffed that he is unwilling to own up to having them, which could be useful to those with ongoing legal battles.

Owning one would be a huge, ugly can of worms. There are a lot of angry people.

Maybe once the case is settled people who lost money might not be as angry, maybe the owners might feel safe enough to allow them to see the light of day. But right now--the owners risk harassment, vandalism, and possible theft of the game.

#10745 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Yeah, the more details that came out... the worse his judgement was understood to be. That's why I throw the flag when clay thinks predator would have gotten done if Fox wasn't notified. This guy is too sketch to pull that kind of job off... no way. He'd have to rely on others, who would do their own diligence and eventually people would stay away from him.

Building even just one custom game from scratch is an accomplishment in and of itself. Between that and the assurances that licensing was above-board, there was a level of comfort that the games would be produced, like Tiger said.

Poor decision making, poor money management, and all the lies were some of the things that made this whole thing collapse like a house of cards.

#10759 3 years ago
Quoted from Fintan_Stack:

Predator is a sore spot for him?? The one guy that actually got the game he paid for? My heart bleeds for him.

Quoted from ForceFlow:

Owning one would be a huge, ugly can of worms. There are a lot of angry people.
Maybe once the case is settled people who lost money might not be as angry, maybe the owners might feel safe enough to allow them to see the light of day. But right now--the owners risk harassment, vandalism, and possible theft of the game.

Quoted from cfh:

demonstrated by the gang raping he took here.

Folks were not kind to him when they found out about it.

#10763 3 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Why is that? I wonder if that meeting was before or after Kevin's post with the bag of parts asking how many predators they could make and assembly had started. Sounds to me like he was out of money long before fox got turned onto him.

Part of the reason could've been the unprofessional appearance that cfh described. Sometimes if you want to hire someone to do something as somewhat of a favor and they don't like you, sometimes the deal has to be lucrative enough for them to even bother to lift a finger.

#10788 3 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

The larger question is why does he posses property that isn't his?

If Tim bought it from Kevin, then it's his property.

The issue was that Kevin was not authorized to use the Predator IP.

#10828 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

I had a good conversation with a the bankruptcy court and then a bankruptcy attorney in Bay City, MI, on Friday. Basically, Kevin is screwing each person out of their 5k by filing chapter 7. Sure, you can object to the discharge of the debt by filing an Adversary Proceeding. There's a $350 filing fee and a new suit is initiated. You're going to court again. The attorney advised that the 5k would be more than eaten up by his fees. So, it ain't worth it. Now, if 10 or 15 victims got together and were all represented collectively, then it might (and I emphasize) be remotely plausible. However, even if the debt is not discharged, if he has no money he has no money. I see it as spending more good money chasing after bad money.
And this adversary proceeding is simply for objecting to the discharge of the debt. It isn't for recovering any money back. I think we all need to accept that the money is gone and will not be recouped. My hope and prayers lie on Keith's criminal proceedings. I'll get some satisfaction seeing them in jail.
I'm watching the court calendar and looking forward to seeing what develops.

The more people going at it together, the less it will cost each individual to proceed. In the long run, each person won't be out a whole lot more to get a chance at reclaiming their funds. A drop in the bucket, all things considered. Plus, it will make Kevin's life difficult, so that alone is worth it to some people.

If the bankruptcy filing goes through without contest, then that's it. This whole thing is pretty much done and everyone loses. If it continues, there's still the possibility of reclaiming something, even if it's not the total amount in full.

#10855 3 years ago
Quoted from edcianci:

how many people are there who actually lost money - lots of people got money back through there credit cards - should we have a thread that just list who is still out money - i am one of them - if somebody starts a thread you can put me down - i would have to look at the exact amout - but i got a little of it back from my credit card because when i paid paypal i didn't have all the money in my account.
so some of it came from my credit card - and that i got back - if we see enough people maybe we would get together - but right now i been sitting on the sidelines just watching this as i don't want to throw money out there with no chance. i am in for throwing money out there without getting it back if he goes to jail. I did talk to keith and din't feel that amount was worth it as recovery of money is very hard.
Putting money up for jail has a better chance then recovery in my opinion - anyway is it worth it to get a list of us out money - maybe it has already been done - i don't know - if it was done before nobody contacted me for the exact amount - that i know - thanks ed

Quoted from Whysnow:

Reach out to Keith in MI (lawyer and pinhead that is now VERY aware of the situation at hand) and get in on things that are happening. Much has been happening behind the scenes that can not and should not be discussed anywhere publicly.
If you have had money stolen and no refund, then NOW is the time (seriously, right now! email or call this guy! It will take you very little effort since much of the legwork has already been done). Just get the ball rolling and you will feel better I can tell you that.
248-436-4833 x 111
Keith Nathanson

#10884 3 years ago

News coverage of this probably wouldn't be good for the community as a whole. While pinheads understand the situation, people who aren't involved in the community won't and might think poorly of pinball in general. A whole bunch of laws that made pinball illegal in certain areas are just starting to get knocked down now, and advertising a situation like this might give the general public pause about voiding those laws and maybe even calling for making new ones.

#10886 3 years ago
Quoted from Grinder901:

Desperate times?

It's simply not something the general public really cares much about. Plenty of folks get swindled every day in a variety of ways, unfortunately. Most of those stories never make headlines.

#10891 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

Con men rely on that type of thinking. If he scams pinball hobbyist, why not video hobbyists, car hobbyists or photography hobbyist?
Let everyone know this may not be a person you want to have any association with.

If it were a construction company, for example, then I'd say go for it, since everybody has an idea of what that is and knows there are both good and bad people in the business.

Pinball just isn't big enough to have a whole lot of general awareness (yet), so any negative press is likely to do more harm than good as a whole to the hobby and community.

I think I pretty much said the same thing in the JPop thread a while back.


Quoted from ForceFlow:

The media and the general public aren't going to care very much. It's not a hot button, late-breaking, headline-making story that is rife with controversy or political intrigue.
Plus, do you really want the only thing that the general public knows about pinball to be this whole situation?
It's probably best to let this worm its way through the courts, though it make take a while. I'm assuming everyone who put down some preorder money has talked to a lawyer at some point about this?

#10893 3 years ago
Quoted from Drewscruis:

I think your possibly missing the point here. Contractors get called out on a 10k 20k whatever swindle. This is much larger than that and spans to other countries. This isn't a story about a bunch of wasted youth smoking pot, drinking and playing pinball. This is a story about a business. And a con that really really snowballed into the mess it is now. I don't see your logic on how a bunch of people who spent their hard earned money on a product that turned into a scam any different that a contractor ripping someone off.

He did get called out, and did get taken to court. How would mass-media coverage further address the situation?

2 weeks later
#10987 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

But I really do believe he has had some very high levels of anxiety and constant stress for the past year minimum. How could anyone in his position not? He didn't flee to the Bahamas with a bag of cash or something. He has had law enforcement at his house multiple times, he has had people threatening him and his family, he has multiple lawsuits brought against him, he has had people following him in public taking his picture, and he has had to declare bankruptcy. Anyone in the Midwest into pinball knows these basic public facts.

1) He pays a lawyer to take care of the details, so he probably doesn't worry too much.
2) Lawsuits drag out for years before they get resolved, and by the time that happens, nobody usually ends up winning in a significant way.
3) Receiving threats kind of comes with the territory when you take peoples' hard earned money under false pretenses and don't deliver on a promise to supply a product.
4) Lots of people follow other people around and take photos of t hem every day (the paparazzi, for example). That's nothing new. Besides, even when he has been spotted in public, nobody has claimed to have approached him. Photos? Big deal--what does he care?.
5) Declaring bankruptcy would have wiped the slate clean, and creditors/customers would not have been able to touch him. It would have been a win and good exit strategy for him, all things considered. Hopefully, the bankruptcy filing is being fought.

#11003 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Yeah I've heard you say this before. From what I understand you thought he was "legit" because of no other reason except that he told you he was, no? VirtuaPin used to seem "legit" to me too until I found out you went ahead and took money for a project you didn't know was above board or not.
So I'll ask you again: What paperwork or online proof, or magic trick did you see that made you this "100%" convinced? You do know what "100%" means, don't you?

A sub-contractor would have no reason to ask a company to see their license agreement with another company. They would just do the work they were contracted to do.

Besides, plenty of people ended up being fooled. Why else would so many people be out $$$? Sure, it's obvious now...but back then, not so much. The benefit of hindsight.

#11013 3 years ago
Quoted from jamieflowers:

Why should a sub contractor take an even larger loss when he was hired to do a job and was only paid for part of the work that he did?

Normally, a sub-contractor is paid in installments as the job progresses, or in full after the job is complete.

#11178 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

The answer is that there has been some sort of plea deal obviously. They let him crawl back. But that MO was seen right from the start... Go too far and then beg for forgiveness. But kaneda was smart to never go after robin or his staff.. So they haven't given up on their willingness to try to recover things.

Interesting leaps in logic. Just because there is no grand announcement doesn't mean we aren't monitoring things.

Now, since the subject of Ladyslingshot is not related to this particular thread, it doesn't really have a place here.

If you are interested in discussing anything regard moderation, please feel free to open a moderator feedback thread.

1 month later
#11596 3 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

At $30k it might be more of a shack than a house?

It depends on the area. There are a few towns near me where you can get a nice house for $20k. The catch is high taxes and no industry/jobs.

A similar house in a better area could fetch north of $150k.

#11642 3 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

If he didn't have kids, I'd be all for this "making his life hell" mentality. I know, I know, he brought it on himself. But he ain't exactly Bernie Madoff.
I hope that losing some discretionary income money on non-delivered toys is the worst thing that ever happens to all you victims. I know, I know, a few people prepaid multiple entire games... but they hoped to make a killing, and that was a huge risk. One shouldn't risk more than one can afford to lose, and pinball is not an investment vehicle.
If this comment brings on any thumbs downs, I'd like to hear what exactly I said that you "don't agree" with! It all seems unassailable to me.

Lies and fraud--now proven facts. For goodness sake, he used business funds for personal expenses. That's embezzlement. Are you saying this behavior is acceptable? If someone else does the same thing, would you be ok with it?

This isn't a matter of someone bilking someone else out of a measly ten bucks. We're talking tens of thousands here.

#11646 3 years ago
Quoted from Roostking:

The very fact that you are trying to make the victims the bad guys here. How uncivilized! The ONLY bad guys is Kevin (And possibly his wife, who should lose her photography equipment too), who lied, and defrauded many people. Why didnt HE think about HIS kids. Not the victims problem.

Yep, blaming the victim or cutting him a break because he might have adorable puppy dogs or children to take care of doesn't absolve him of what he did wrong. There are plenty of criminals out there who have family too, but that didn't stop them from hurting others.

This wasn't just some little boo boo that can be shrugged off--this was a pretty substantial endeavor and failure that cost a lot of people a considerable amount of money who now have nothing to show for it.

#11650 3 years ago

Here's another recent crowdfunding case where the owners failed at producing something they promised, took the money for personal use, filed for bankruptcy, and left a trail of wreckage behind.


#11704 3 years ago
Quoted from sevenrites:

A little snooping around seems to reveal that the family may have gone on vacation out of the country from July 18-25, 2015.

If that's the case, I wonder how much customer money got burned up doing that

#11709 3 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

or moved to an off shore account.

Quoted from TigerLaw:

I think the inference is the money may have been moved out of the country to make it potentially harder to trace.


#11723 3 years ago
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:

Damn. You just had to bring that up.....
I'm one of the victims in that scam. Those pieces of shit stole my money, bought two Dodge Vipers (because the wrecked the first), took trips all around the world, bought 4 motorcycles, rented Lamborghini's and blew $20,000+ on strippers among other things. That's just what came out within the last few days.
That was my first and last crowd funding endevour. I stuck with it so long because Intel Venture dumped over $11 million into the company the end of last year. They had also started shipping and I was slated to get mine a few weeks after they disappeared.
I feel everyone's pain.

Sorry to hear it. Hope you're able to get something back.

1 week later
#11782 3 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

Can someone please identify the Bally pin that this card is on, please.


1 month later
#11905 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

That is the issue. While it is nice to think "this would make it stick" the legal road is a PITA. It would be nice to know the expected twists, turns and cost ahead of time down the road. But this road was designed by lawyers to keep their pockets lined. If you really knew the costs of time, energy and money more people would make the decision early to bail and that does not benefit the lawyers.
If the money is nothing and the time gives you satisfaction then go for it since he should pay his debt. If you need to move on there is nothing wrong with that either.

From what I've seen so far, the lawyer representing the buyers has been doing his due diligence and then some.

#11939 3 years ago
Quoted from dotEXE:

I see some people suggesting people should throw in hundreds to save $250. I'd recommend to think about it from an economics standpoint. If the marginal benefit of X is greater than the marginal cost, do X. Don't spend thousands of dollars in an attempt to regain $250. Don't even spend $251 to try and rescue $250. That'd be missing the forest for the trees.
If some people stand to recover thousands (I honestly don't know the extent of some people's investments here) by all means go forth.

$250 is the deposit for Dialed In.

Most people lost thousands on individual JPop games, so a few hundred at a chance to reclaim something or at least prevent Kevin from ever doing this again is just a drop in the bucket.

There are quite a lot of folks who are very bitter about this and don't care how much it costs to go after Kevin.

#11951 3 years ago
Quoted from dotEXE:

You've got the worst tunnel vision I've seen here yet. You can't even read a comment before turning around and attacking.
You clearly just want blood.
Here ya go. I have new advice based on a revised understanding of your needs. Please, I advise everyone, as an MBA with a half-finished PhD in economics. Go spend your entire life savings to attempt to regain your deposits. Regardless of the severity of the deposit, be it $250 or $100,000. Drop everything, spare no expense. I assure you it's worth your time, effort, loss of revenue, and shortened life expectancy.
I'm sorry, is that more what you wanted? Way to absolutely turn a neutral party against yourself.

Your assumption of the low dollar amount on deposits for these games is incorrect, which is why you're getting some opposition to what you're saying.

I've seen people mention they were in for anywhere between $2500 and $50k--maybe more with some distributors buying multiple machines.

If I only had a $250 deposit in the ring, sure, I'd probably just walk away. But for most people, they had much, much more skin in the game.

#11956 3 years ago

[edit]: Nevermind, I forgot I was in the skitb thread, and not the JPop thread. I was about to post some initial deposit numbers for JPop games.

#11967 3 years ago
Quoted from Richthofen:

Pretty sure dotEXE is kaneda. no point in arguing with him, he just likes to stir up drama. That's too bad, it's a really sad way to spend your life.

I can confirm dotEXE is not he-who-must-not-be-named. However, dotEXE shouldn't be surprised when comparisons are made by other members if he posts in a similar way sometimes.

1 month later
#12100 3 years ago

Can't say I'm not surprised he was a no-show.

If the proposed court order is signed, I wonder how difficult apprehension will be--I'm wondering if he's fleeing or hiding somewhere, or just hunkering down in his house.

#12123 3 years ago

Wouldn't the US Marshals actively pursue a warrant, unlike the situation you describe with local cops?

1 week later
#12285 3 years ago
Quoted from PoMC:

Don't think he's "bragging". Everyone is on social media posting their lives and he just posted a video of his kids opening presents.

...and the issue here is that it's not "just" presents, but expensive presents, while at the same time, filing for bankruptcy. And that of course begs the question, where did the money for those purchases come from?

#12289 3 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

Should they have gotten their kids nothing at all for Christmas? Or is this just an issue because of the cost of the laptops?

It doesn't matter who the presents are for. There are plenty of families out there who are considerably less fortunate, and they make do.

The problem is that Kevin has debts, filed for bankruptcy, and here he is (allegedly) buying expensive electronics.

#12516 3 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

In document 37, Keith is looking to recover the Predator and Experts of Dangerous machines sold to Tim Fife.


So Tim paid Kevin for the games, so shouldn't Kevin be on the hook for what was paid for them, rather than Tim?

Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

In document 39, Keith is looking to recover the CNC machine, or $25,000, from Virtuapin. He is also looking to recover $105,625 from Virtuapin. I guess the guy from Virtuapin was right when he said my $113k number was wrong. I was 8k off

I'm not sure I understand this either. If Virtuapin bought a CNC machine for the purposes of manufacturing the game cabinets, why would virtuapin be on the hook for this? Or is virtuapin the one trying to recover the cost of having to purchase the CNC machine for the purpose of fulfilling Kevin's cabinet order?

#12733 3 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

I really wish it could end up in a pinball museum somewhere. NOT that place in Vegas. Maybe PAPA, or the place in Banning, CA. Perhaps Lyons Classic Pinball in Colorado?
Perhaps Roger Sharpe could ask Fox if they'd allow one game to be kept for the sake of pinball history.

While I like the idea to allow the game to be made available like that and preserved for the sake of pinball history, there would be a risk of it being vandalized or stolen by people who are rather upset with the whole situation.

#12810 3 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So pinside rules are more like... suggestions? If you entertain the staff you are given a pass on repeated duplicate accounts, deception, and straight up ignoring staff actions by doing end arounds?
Boo to that

If you wish to discuss the rules or the way in which they are enforced, I'd invite you to open a moderator feedback thread rather than drag this thread off topic.

This also applies to anyone else who has questions/concerns.

#12821 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I opened a mod thread almost 12 hrs ago and no response.
Are we supposed to PM him or does he actually check in on mod thread occasionally?

There were responses from two mods and several replies. If you're waiting on a response for Robin, keep in mind that he is in a completely different timezone.

#12967 3 years ago

Every time a see a flurry of new posts in this thread, I think that there is an interesting update of some sort. I keep being disappointed.

1 week later
#13049 3 years ago

So in summary, the judge basically relayed to Kevin that he needs to comply and supply all the requested documentation by next week, otherwise he won't be going home and will held by the US Marshals for an undetermined period of time. He was also ordered to not destroy any documentation. And lastly, if he leaves the country or general vicinity that he would be in deep water.

That was a very interesting hearing.

#13059 3 years ago

Obviously, Kevin's options are limited at this point and down to "comply or else".

Quite a long road to make it to this point. Good job, Keith Can't wait to hear what happens next.

#13062 3 years ago
Quoted from greatwichjohn:

Good listening too. Thought for sure the judge was going to start some jail time to enlighten him. Guessed wrong, maybe next time.

It was smart, I thought. The Judge made it crystal clear what would happen--he spoke directly to Kevin, and Kevin acknowledged what the Judge was saying. There is also an audio recording of the whole exchange. So, there is no way Kevin can plead ignorance or a misunderstanding or anything like that.

#13063 3 years ago
Quoted from jasonp:

Pinball Accoutrements

Does Keith have all the photos that were circulated of all the tools, parts, cabinets, etc? I know there were a bunch of them scattered around.

The thread photo gallery feature should help a little with that.

#13065 3 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

He was actually already at that point. He just didn't know it apparently.

Well, now it just got real. Direct from the Judge's lips.

#13070 3 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Eh, you usually get one free pass from a Judge when you play dumb. Kevin got that.

Yep, exactly.

Quoted from MrBally:

Note how the Judge didn't bring up the $17k fine or whatever the term is (accoutrements?) for the $500.00/day Kevin supposedly owes for his non-appearance at Keith's office.

The goal was to get Kevin to produce documentation. If the Judge forced Kevin to produce both the money and the documentation, Kevin would have his attention divided. I'm guessing it will be re-visited after the due date for the documentation is reached.

#13133 3 years ago

It could be part-time and not full-time, but then the issue of who is watching the kids still comes up.

#13197 3 years ago
Quoted from merccat:

Just an assumption on my part here but if Keith is stating there was 1.2 million given to Kevin (and the Judge who is likely familiar with the case didn't flinch at that figure) then my guess would be that there is some sort of evidence on the other side of things that that sum of money was given to Kevin regardless of what the idiots excel spreadsheet may say (I like making 'creative' spreadsheets as much as the next guy). Its now up to Kevin to show where it went.

Yep, the figure probably came from the information gathered from 3rd parties. 3rd-party information gathering is a haphazard process, especially without a primary source to work from. A lot can be missed simply because there aren't records to work from and you basically have to work backwards to try to identify people and try to obtain the documentation that they have. So, there was likely only a reasonable certainty for a certain amount of funds based on that.

#13338 3 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

That is my copyrighted phrase. I am charging $3.22 per use. Please feel free to PayPal me every time someone says it or types it!

"I want a quarter every time somebody says it!"

pasted_image (resized).png

#13340 3 years ago
Quoted from KeithinMI:

My favorite response from Mr. Kulek in that hearing:
"Mr. Kulek do you know why you're here today?"
"I understand you're seeking exclamation from me"

#13522 3 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Looks like his wife is selling things including a camera lens that I'm assuming our money paid for.

If she used funds that came from Kevin which was actually preorder money, can she actually sell this stuff on her own to pay back creditors?

Wouldn't creditors be in charge of claiming items and auctioning them off?

#13571 3 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

Check out what Ziggy's Delivery advertises it does (59:50 on today's hit parade). No mention about being a FedEx subcontractor. Too funny....

Oh my

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#13647 3 years ago

So, I'm assuming the recoding happened before the paperwork denying the discharge of debt was filed, right?


The recording took place on the morning of 1/27 ended at around 11am.

The discharge paperwork was filed on 1/27 at 2:57pm.

What happened in between?

#13651 3 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

YES!!! I was wondering this also. How, where and who got this discharge order produced and signed off on?

At the end of the recording, it sounded like Keith was going to write up an order for the judge to sign to compel Kevin to produce documentation by 2/17 (however, I may have misunderstood since it was a logistical discussion that went back & forth a little bit)

Maybe something changed?

Is there anything new in PACER?

#13796 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Tons of people; it's 2017. And...I mean just listen to how cheap they are

I'd more expect to see kids with tablets or smart phones, rather than laptops.

1 week later
#14019 3 years ago

I live on the moon. Great view, but no atmosphere.

#14068 3 years ago
Quoted from John_I:

If you go to the very first post in this thread, the key posts have been linked.

You don't have to go to the first post--just scroll to the top of the page to the key post section and click the link to reveal them.

pasted_image (resized).png

#14084 3 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Absolutely. But the thing of it is that nobody calls any more. It's like people are afraid of talking on the phone these days. If you want to call and discuss feel free.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, MI.

Eh, sometimes it's considered intrusive these days to call someone out of the blue without pre-arranging a time to call via email or text beforehand.

#14086 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Tell that to the telemarketer that calls at 6pm in the evening!

Well, the average person. Telemarketers are always annoying--that hasn't changed.

#14094 3 years ago

I'm so tempted to call John right now just because of this conversation

#14098 3 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Not until you make an appointment first.



#14123 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I don't think he reads this page at all. It clashes too much with the reality he imagines where he is somehow the victim and us suckers he took money from and didn't return are somehow bad people.

Didn't he have printouts of this thread where he said people were being mean to him online?

#14128 3 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Look, you guys are all being a little bit HARSH on Kevin. If Kevin says all the money was spent towards Predator, then we should give him the benefit of the doubt.

#14139 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

What is new? We already knew the court denied the discharge.
Never mind. I see you beat me to the post with some new listening material.

It's not new. It's the recording that was already posted.

#14159 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

previous members of Skit B pinball

It looks like James was listed as an "engineer"and Steve was listed as the "build manager". I'm not sure about the other names.

#14174 3 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Oh man, I was listening and just lost my connection. It is like a cliffhanger.
The judge asked Kevin's attorney what he thinks he should do. He said something like -
Last week Mr. Nathanson said I should throw him in jail for a few weeks and maybe when he comes out he'll be move cooperative. But I was hesitant to do that.
That's not true. It was the judge saying he would toss him in if he wanted. I think the judge really does not like Kevin.
Kevin's attorney wants out. He wishes Kevin had some paperwork.
That Collier on the phone was great. Fraud, Fraud and Criminal. Great words to throw out.
I'll have to try to connect and finish later. Great stuff.

Wait till you hear the second recording. That one was interesting as well (look in the key post index at the top of the page to find it).

#14204 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

If I understood correctly, Kevin's bankruptcy got discharged the other day. What process is taking place now? Are criminal charges being brought up now?

From what I understand, creditors still need to be satisfied since the bankruptcy filing failed (meaning all Kevin's debts are still on the books). So, Keith is trying to find out where all the money went, and try to recover it. The first order from the court has been to order Kathy Kulek to turn over the RV (or the cash equivalent) to the estate plus $25k, which was a default judgement (based on Keith's findings) since she didn't show up to defend herself.

Keith is also filing complaints against anyone Kevin may have paid or given money to, and those files contain various facts and allegations about Kevin in each complaint, ending with how the person was involved with Kevin, such as:

pasted_image (resized).png

Basically saying that Kevin sent money to these people without any record or invoice details to show for it, and that it should be recovered from these people because:

pasted_image (resized).png

Which basically alleges that Kevin sent money to his friends to hide it.

#14251 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I've been to Cuba a few times and those people are super smart.

I've seen a few youtube videos and a couple of articles about their ingenuity. Necessity is the mother of invention, and can become a wellspring of creative solutions.


#14279 3 years ago

Not many developments this week, but hopefully Keith finds something useful in the bank records and check copies once they are turned over to him.

It's not really a surprise Kevin didn't make an appearance, though.

#14304 3 years ago
Quoted from Crash:

Posts being out of order are a huge problem though. Any thoughts on fixing this Robin?

Quoted from Martijn:

They should appear in posting order, so this appears to be a bug. We will look into this shortly.


2 weeks later
#14446 3 years ago

I find it hard to believe he didn't respond to a legal matter and would risk a default judgement like this.

From Kathy Kulek, sure, that's not surprising. But from virtualpin? Something seems odd here.

#14454 3 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

I'd buy that for a dollar. I'm thinking he shows up but is very uncooperative.

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#14516 3 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

For all intensive purposes

pasted_image (resized).png

#14524 3 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Woosh is right! Can anyone identify the *six* errors I placed intentionally in those two sentences?

For all intensive purposes intents and purposes, you can expect to see grammer grammar and spelling errors on Pinside everyday every day. Some people must of have been asleep during there their english English class.

#14575 3 years ago

I kind of think the window of opportunity for interest in a EoD machine may have passed. Mythbusters ended March 2016. Adam Savage is active in the maker community, but Jamie Hyneman has disappeared offline into other projects.

#14581 3 years ago
Quoted from jayhawkai:

Let's stay on topic. How does it compare with The 100?

The expanse is more of an adult show, in an established future universe, and a larger scope with government/faction politics.

I stopped watching the 100 after the first season ended, but from what I remember, it was basically about colonization of the planet, featuring young adults/teens.

2 weeks later
#14799 3 years ago

Moderator's comment:

Ok folks, let's get off the firearms topic since it's unrelated here and can quickly detour into politics.

#14808 3 years ago
Quoted from tslayer71:

So I was wondering from someone who has legal experience. Is the radio silence now because talking about it might jeopardize the case?

Not necessarily. There could just be a scheduled court date and not much would be entered into the record until then.

1 week later
#14921 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

If anyone here needs a job this photography business is hiring -

Interestingly enough, so is radioshack...

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#14974 3 years ago

captain-america-i-understood-that-reference-hey-language[1] (resized).jpg

#14992 3 years ago
Quoted from MotorCityMatt:

Seems like I could build a couple of pins and convince people to give me money. Then travel the world looking for a manufacturer and write it all off and declare bankruptcy no?
Paperwork well documented.



#14995 3 years ago
Quoted from osudrummer:

I saw the key notes and it said Kathy Kulek, that is the mom with the RV right?


#15007 3 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

So their defense is they were trying to scam the state of Michigan?

Sounds like it

2 weeks later
#15192 3 years ago
Quoted from c508:

Here's the TL;DR version of keithinmi's latest filing!


1 month later
#15785 3 years ago

If any do need to be edited, please point it out and someone will make the correction.

2 weeks later
#15886 2 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

more court audio right meow, please

I'm not expecting anything interesting. Probably more of:

Judge: Did you bring and do the 20 things that were expected of you?
Defendant: No, I only did one thing because [excuses; was tired, didn't feel well, couldn't find it, cat had a hairball, pants were on fire, the internet was mean to me, etc]
Judge: Ok, Trustee, what you need to move forward?
Trustee: All the 19 other things listed in the documents that were filed.
Judge: Ok, defendant, bring and do what is expected within two weeks.
Defendant: Ok

(rinse, repeat)

#15890 2 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

I just thought of a great way for criminals to pay back the victims. Since everyone is so into reality shows these day; what about a pay-per-view for jail cell cameras.

Well, Judge Judy was popular. It wasn't pay-per-view, though.

1 week later
#16229 2 years ago

In case anyone missed it, that file name gave me a chuckle:


#16337 2 years ago

Looks like the comment was very quickly deleted.

#16348 2 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

Yeah, all my comments are blank as well. I'm thinking the comments are outsources to a work-blocked site somehow.

They use the facebook API. An adblocker will probably block them too.

#16362 2 years ago

Has anyone reported the fund raiser to youcaring?

#16368 2 years ago

Oboy...more comments

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#16379 2 years ago

I'm kind of curious if it was removed by youcaring, or deleted by the person who originally posted it.

#16386 2 years ago
Quoted from Underspin:

If you thought Amanda Kulek's voice sounded hysterical last time she was in front of the judge, the new flood drama will raise it to the point that only dogs will be able to hear it.

Comedy gold--you made me laugh out loud with that one, haha

#16591 2 years ago

Screenshot for posterity


#16702 2 years ago

Grabbed another screenshot earlier before it disappeared.


1 week later
#16833 2 years ago

Sounds like this could kind of be an entertaining game.

Where do I preorder?

*ducks for cover*

#16862 2 years ago

I'm kind of surprised this was still up since the article was deleted. Screenshotting for posterity.

fs1 (resized).jpgfs2 (resized).jpgfs3 (resized).jpgfs4 (resized).jpg

#16882 2 years ago
Quoted from galaxian:

Waiting for the highlights

Summary as listed in the key post:

Audio file, court discussion on house settlement with Amanda. Amanda unable to get loan so far. Deadline extended.

1 week later
#16927 2 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

Avid vs. avoid. Gotta love it.

Is that what this whole defamation argument is about? Good grief

2 weeks later
#17027 2 years ago

"We're just waiting for the hammer to fall"

#17069 2 years ago
Quoted from c508:


1 week later
#17118 2 years ago
Quoted from pinlink:

I liked the judge a lot in the beginning. Now it seems like he has something against Keith? I don't feel as good about this as I once did.

Me too. However, now it just seems to be giving way too much leeway to the Kuleks and the other defendants and he isn't willing to bring the hammer down on them.

#17119 2 years ago
Quoted from fisherdaman:

So just jumping in this thread pretty late. Can anyone summarize what's happening? Who is getting sued and why etc? Thanks

Check the big list of key posts at the top of the thread.

#17154 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

They actually damaged their case more by splitting the payments up, because on the surface it indicates planning to try and avoid what they thought was an IRS rule that applied to them. Since it doesn't apply to them though, I'm not sure it matters. They were trying to avoid something that technically doesn't exist as it applies to these transactions.


#17157 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I tried to call the IRS for help, and got lost and hung up on about 6 times trying to navigate their phone system. Hangups were all automated, ranging from "Agents can only answer that during the filing season, check online *click*" to "Those questions are no longer answered by a human, check online *click*".

1 week later
#17222 2 years ago

That sounds nice in theory and after-the-fact, but remember the mood of everyone while the whole thing was collapsing. I don't think very many buyers would have been interested in the posterity aspect of the game after just seeing the whole project crumble and their money evaporate in real time. I'm not sure it would have been possible to take that approach then. Now, sure, but probably not then.

#17224 2 years ago

While everything was imploding, maybe the only way to preserve everything was to acquire it on the DL. It's not the first time a pinball company has closed its doors and there was a mad scramble to grab stuff from being destroyed.

Anyway, who knows. I'm not going to vilify anyone here. It's easy to dissect things after the fact and make suppositions of what might have or might not have happened without actual facts or first-hand knowledge.

#17276 2 years ago
Quoted from redman822:

Interesting that you keep (only) focusing on the first 10, Hilton - is it that you were in the first ten in line and want to get your hands on it and "too bad so sad" for buyer #11 and onward, since obviously there's not going to be much, if any recoverable money from Kevin/SKitB?

Note: I have no horse in this race, I am just sitting back and watching (and eating popcorn)

Only 10 playfields were made. There weren't any more than that. That's why the number of ten keeps coming up.

#17303 2 years ago
Quoted from Coyote:

What laywer uses a gmail account, and doesn't have their own named host set up? .. That puts faith in me.

Gmail is generally more versatile for day-to-day stuff.

On his website, he has an email address listed with the custom domain name: https://stopcreditor.com/about-kurt/

I would guess that it forwards to the gmail address. That's usually how I see things set up.

#17357 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

As a victim of a crime resulting in a $4500 theft from me, I hope you'll be OK if I ignore your opinion "to move on to bigger and better things".

The point was to not bother wasting time chasing down all smaller nickel & dime stuff that has already been scattered to the four winds, and focus more on the more expensive assets that are still held by Kevin and the group of people that were directly involved with the project.

Trying to chase down all the collectors who may have ended up with various parts & pieces is not going to be a good use of a lawyer's time, especially with little evidence or paper trail to go on. For example, is it worthwhile to chase down a $4 pop bumper cap at $100+ per hour, with a potential time investment of several hours of research per lead which was likely an in-person cash transaction with no paper trail? Better to focus on the big ticket items and large transfers of cash that can still potentially be reclaimed.

#17359 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. The law has a responsibility to track down everything regardless of costs. The bulk of the money is still tied up with Paypal, but that doesn't let Kevin's backdoor sales of assets off the Hook.

No, it's not right that Kevin gets to benefit from those "backdoor sales".

Unfortunately, it's just not feasible or practical to track all those loose parts down. Months of time and lots of money has already been spent to try to find out where it all went, but so far, those efforts have not been fruitful. That's why I'm suggesting that's it's better to go after the larger assets that are more likely to be recovered and that actually have a paper trail, than the nickel & dime stuff that hasn't turned up despite all the searching already done.

It's not the best use of the available resources. Spending more time trying to hunt down the nickel & dime stuff means more money getting eaten up in lawyer/court costs, and less funds available for reimbursing the victims.

The math on it simply doesn't make it very worthwhile. The idea is to recover as much as possible with the least amount of effort, not the least amount as possible with the most amount of effort.

#17365 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

How does the trustee generate monies from these items?

Hold an auction.

#17369 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Maybe it would be considered counterfeit material to be destroyed.

Technically, it's not counterfeit like a knockoff handbag. It just wasn't properly licensed.

They might be able to make an argument for it being an unproduced prototype. Plenty of that stuff surfaces and gets sold. For instance, the sheets of artwork rejected by the licensor for the demolition man backglass were probably sold at some point.

#17373 2 years ago
Quoted from redman822:

As to 'auctioning off' the playfield with FOX's IP that they do not approve, FOX would probably deny that action and either claim ownership, seek destruction, and not allow it to be sold.

Or completely ignore it since it's not worth the lawyer time.

#17387 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

It wasn't a year, almost all his posts say "one year ago" so its seemingly is within roughly the same period.

Click on the text, and it will reveal the actual date.

In this case, it was June 2016.

A lot can happen in a year.

#17388 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

If what Hilton said is true, that people have told him they have seen it. I don't know any of these people, but seems like an odd thing to make up just to drag someone's name through the mud. Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true? Seems pretty believable to me.

From what I've read, there has been nothing beyond accusations and offers for rewards for photos/info.

#17400 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Absolutely incorrect. I'm going on his own words. I've attached it so this whole "a lot can happen in a year" can be settled once and for all. 4 weeks later he went from never being able to see it to having seen it and having pictures. Lots of motivation and interest for a guy with nothing to do with it, seemingly.

I've seen pictures of it too. There were a few photos going around. That doesn't mean I've seen it in person, though.