I think the people that really wanted this title to be made (license or not) are really going to be pissed at the guy that outed him. I had no leg in this race one way or the other. I refuse to preorder shit, that's always been my advice.
what gets me, is that you guys have no problems buying mods of one of's and what not, that would clearly be copywrite infringement as well, and now someone gets all involved with this big shitstorm, everyone feels self righteous and point fingers on "how could they do that". Truth be told, many of us just want a cool product and really don't give a shit if it's "licensed" or not. And i'm sure there are plenty of people that were on the fringe to get something, they thought was cool, and now it's in going to shit, because someone decided to snoop around and shut down the operation.
Was it shady to take money for a product that wasn't ready to go out the door without licensing after saying they did? Sure. If the 250 were already made before you even knew and were selling them out the door, would the 250 that bought one give a shit? probably not.
I just feel it's comical for so many to point fingers, when they probably own plenty of toppers and other bullshit homemade mods on their games.
Quoted from YKpinballer:
The difference being this was 5k of money per person that kevin gambled on being able to illegally manufacture a major luxury item. Which takes years. Which he even admitted he now couldn't even build in his house if he wanted to. There was never a possibility that these people were going to get their black market pinball machines.
I agree, but I don't think for a second, that Kevin was at any time trying to purposely rip off the people supporting him and wanting the game. I really think he just wanted to make it happen and didn't cover all his bases, or didn't have the means to get everything he needed. If he wanted to pull this off, he should have made the games first. Then sold them, as they were ready to go out the door. 30 days max, and all the games would have been revealed, and sold, and done. the issue probably would have never came up, and it would have been under the radar.
All i know, is if Pinball Circus was about to come out, and I felt like I was months away from getting my game and some ass hat called the guy out, that was making my game and yanked it from under me. I'd be pissed off at the guy that outed him. Hence why this guy remains "anonymous". I think it's to avoid the lynching he would get from the ones that wanted to see predator happen.
Quoted from Stones:
I agree.....just a con artist.
here we go pointing fingers again. I don't think it's this at all. Not having business sense or not knowing what you're doing, doesn't automatically make you a con artist. I really don't think he was out to fraud people. If all the money is gone and nothing was made, then it could be a scam or really poor business decisions.
I've talked with Kevin and his team many times over the years. I really think his intentions were good and he was just excited to make the game happen. I really think he thought he could sneak it in under the radar. I really think he could have, if it didnt' take so damn long to get the games done. If he would have pulled it off in the first year, I really think it would have happened. Never once out of all my conversations with him, did I ever get the impression he was out to get everyones money.
didn't say he did things proper. I just think his eyes glazed over with the dreams of making his dream theme over sensibility and business knowledge.
If the money is gone, then I think the game driven Kevin that started this project, ended up going astray from his initial intentions. I really hope the money isn't gone. WOuld be a shame for the ones that believed in him, lost their ass. If everyone gets their money back, then I think people would be more accepting that his initial intentions were genuine.
Quoted from mrgone:
how many prototypes currently exist?
and, what is going to happen to them?
are they to be destroyed?
Or more importantly, what happened to the Total Recall prototype?
(you might ask what relevance this has to this discussion, and the answer would be nothing. I just wanted to know because i've been looking for it for about 10 years)
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:
There in lies the problem, if he wanted to sneak it under the radar he should have let the preorder folks know by way of email and let them decide if they wanted to stay in. By misleading us making us think the license was in tact is the opposite of good intentions. I don't even understand the point of not trying to get the license from the get go, many of us, myself included would have paid a little more if we would have known what an actual license was priced at. As for out to get everyone's money, that may not have been his original intention but those intentions changed once the C&D was issued, once it was issued the project was dead.... period, so if it wasn't about the money then why accept a dime after the C&D? Also if it's not about the money then why was a new house purchased by Kevins wife a housewife? If you can't see what is going on here I don't know what to tell you. Please for the love of pinball stop sympathizing with the guy.
Here's the thing. If he outs himself that he doesn't have the license, he is just opening the door for someone to run and tell the tattle turtle. If he wants to have any chance to sneak it through, he has to go with a bullshit story that he has it, try and get the games made and in peoples hands before anyone notices. I really think this is his frame of mind with the event.
never said it didn't, but if you're going to pull something like this. It's really your only option. You can't tell anyone you don't have the license or you have 0% chance of sneaking anything out the door.
Quoted from lowepg:
Yeah, you keep saying that. But it sounds like you're saying it's only bad because he got caught?
So, if he "snuck the games out illegally" - then that would have been OK?
I *guess* thats OK if all those 250 KNEW that were buying a bootleg (and had no morals), but Im assuming thats NOT the case.
yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.
No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about. So you don't have a Tron arcade mod, or any aftermarket toppers on your machines? None of those little lamp shades with the name of the game lasercut into it? You don't buy into unlicensed stuff ever? I call bullshit.
I look at it like this. If you make something cool and selling it, i'll buy it, licensed or not. If it saves me $50 because it's unlicensed, so much the better. I'm not afraid to admit it and most are in the same club. With Kevin making the predator pin, is he taking money out of the pocket of fox? Was fox planning on making the game themselves? Nope, they didn't give a shit and were not going to cash in on it in the slightest. So I don't look at it as all that bad if he would have pulled it off. buyers would have been happy. People got something for their money. Another pin would be floating around the community. Fox would keep on airing their shit reporting news show. Life goes on.
probably not, but if you want to keep seeing cool shit for your game, you really can't give a shit about it. Otherwise you are going to be very limited on bonus goodies, and the ones you do see, with be high priced because you have more hands in the pile trying to get a cut. And some are very unreasonable to deal with.
Actually, they have houses for $500-750 in MI as well. I saw 4 of them on ebay not to long ago, and they closed at $500 each. Didn't look that bad either, but were in the heart of the Ghetto. Not hard to find a $2000-4000 house around detroit.
Quoted from lowepg:
Well, I hope the guys at FOX dont find their way into this threads then.
Because if I was a fex exec and I read your comment, I would say, "all these pinball guys are scammers as knew it was infringement and didn't give a shit. Let's not worry about them getting their money back, lets just bury this SkitB guy and make an example out of him"
I'm just saying, before you start call out people as immoral for buying a unlicensed game that should have been licensed, you might want to take an indepth look at your own buying history. I wouldn't dare pass judgment on someone for buying something unlicensed, known fake, or some other item like that, because we all have something we bought that probably falls in that category. And if we want to keep seeing cool shit become available, we need to not care either way. And I highly doubt Fox, would bother to get a pinside account, with the hopes that we are talking about it. Hell, they can't even report regular news worth a shit, without making stuff up themselves. Fox themselves, are full of shit, and make up stories and allegations without any facts to back it up. I think it's a safe bet we can pretty much talk about whatever we want in here.
Besides that, pinball has a history of being the bad boy hobby. The rough crowd. Crowds that walk across the street WITHOUT a cross walk. Yea, that's the shit i'm talking about. Playing games in a smoky underground club, and having the bartender pay you out because you got the match. Oh yea, that's the shit. We are bad boys. We buy shit we like regardless of license. Damn straight.
Quoted from belairjoe:
that's how the Chinese took my job! did not pay design people.same as stealing! no one cares until it bites them.i don't care if its a topper a machine or anything else
Totally different animal if you're coping a product already out there. Whole different story if you're making something completely unrelated to the item, that nobody would ever make or try to cash in on. Chinese knockoffs are nothing new and nothing anyone can do about them regardless, but it doesn't have anything to do with this. The only way it would be the same, is if Stern Released WWE, and someone else released WWE for a cheaper price with cheaper parts.
blame who you want, but the only person you really can blame is yourself, for preordering shit in the first place. None of this would have happened if people didn't preorder. Plain and simple.
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:
I got some pretty damn cool toppers, translites and seen some other great stuff out there. Tron arcade mod is pretty damn awesome......list goes on and on.
Quoted from lowepg:
Dude, I agree 100% with that sentiment (obviously) but WTF good does that do these guys now.
That's like walking up to people that are standing outside their house that just burned to the ground and telling them they should have had working smoke alarms.
YES, you'd be right, but YES they'd be right in telling you to shutthefuckup and/or knocking you on your ass.
btw, if they are standing outside, they would have had good smoke alarms.
I like the stock analogy better. It's more to the truth than anything else. You are putting money into something that has yet to be made. Plenty of companies go belly up trying to make a product and find out costs are higher than expected. Everyone that put into that company loses their ass when shit fall apart. This is no different.
Quoted from lowepg:
Dude, go away.
This is NOT the same thing. You're making it sound like SkitB gave it the old college try and it just didn't work out. It was a fraudulent effort from the beginning.
Is the Monday morning QB'ing here making you feel better or something?
Is it any different than a company that crunches the numbers to make their product look like it will work on paper to get investors? Only to find out later they are way over budget and can't afford the tooling to do it? I think it's a perfect representation of exactly what is going on here.
Besides we are off on another tangent, that's not even the reason I got involved in this thread in the first place. My initial reason for being here, was just to say that I didn't think Kevins initial intentions was to scam people and take their money. I think he just wanted to make this game, and to do whatever it takes to make it happen and get it in peoples hands.
I'd be pissed off at Mr X if I wanted this game, because now it probably won't happen.
Quoted from lowepg:
It's impressive how many times you can be wrong on so many different topics in just one single post.
Now I'm wondering if you're being sarcastic or really don't understand how investments or business in general works? Did you omit a few smiley faces from your last few foolish comments?
Really, how is this different? Company wants to make a product. Numbers arn't working on paper. Budgeting coordinator crunches some numbers to make it work. They make a prototype. Show it to investors. Investors invest. Production starts. Money gets used. Half way through they are out of money and can no longer make the product. How is this different. In this case instead of lying about manufacturing costs, he's lying about licensing issues. Which would have put him way over budget i'm sure. It's pretty much the same damn thing in a nutshell.
Anyone have that article someone posted recently on that camera instagram company that showed you how to lose 500k in a kickstarter company?
Quoted from Russo121:
Its different because lies were told in order to obtain funds. Aka Fraud.
Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.
Quoted from Russo121:
Yeah I read your example. You are mistaken. A company that started out legit, gets into trouble then 'fudges' the numbers to carry on working is not the same as a company starting with an out an out lie to gain investment.
They fudge the numbers before the company even gets started. After prototype is made, the lies are out to get the investors to invest to start the company. You did not read my example correctly. The order you described to me is not what I said.
plus, I'd think if he gives people their money back, it will do better for him if it goes to court. Wouldn't look like he was trying to scam anyone.
Quoted from Pubaw:
I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?
Pro Audio Spectrum
because i'm sure I got their panties in a wad earlier, and now they are just on a thumbs down rampage without really thinking about or reading what i'm saying.
Quoted from Pubaw:
Yes. This is a common problem with forums. For some reason I think Pinside Predator forum is the worse. Now notice I did not say, "Pinside" only. I mean this stupid Predator forum has been tough for two years on people. There are always two sides to a conversation and many here simply did not want the opposing side of the argument to ever post here. If they could have had a magic button to push and make all the naysayers disappear, I am sure they would have mashed it over and over. Sad indeed. I tend to believe all can get along in a forum. Even if you do not agree, you should welcome the others point of view. I do not mean you can insult or cuss at others, I simply mean express your opinion without being told, "Get out" or "your a troll". Too many people get their, "panties in a wad" like you said. It seems to always be worse in this Predator thread too
I understand that people are going to be emotional and upset. They have money invested in this project that they would have no reason to think that it wouldn't happen. Proto was right there, everything seemed to be going smooth.
But there really isn't any basis at this point to say your money is gone. If Kevin was truly legit the whole time, i'm sure the funds are there. Well most of the funds as i'm sure some were actually used for production. If that's the case, least you know his intentions were NOT to screw people over. Which should make you feel a little better about being lied to about the license thing. He has stated he is not a business man. Could be just chalked up to very poor business decisions. It's going to be a touchy subject regardless because of the money involved, the desire for the game and other factors. This mr.X kinda fawked it up for everyone so to speak, (if the games were in the works to come out). If they were not even close or having an intention of being released, then it's a full out scam and Kevin was being a dick.
Quoted from dantebean:
Once this exploded I said some of you guys would play the "I told you so" or "this is why I am smart and stayed out of this pre-order" game. Lost a lot of respect for some of you guys with no stock in this matter. How dare you try teaching people how to handle losing their money. If you're not in this then just say "good luck" and move on. No need to have a big back and forth with people fighting to get their money back.
For those of you posting on how to contact Paypal and lawyers, thank you. We should be helping and not playing blame game.
Please. The preorder thing has effected us all, and not in a good way. It's the reason shit is so insane in general. It's no secret that i've always said preorder is bullshit and when people whine about it when shit goes wrong, over and over and over again. Why should this thread be any different. Preorder screws us all over, not just the one who preordered.
Quoted from flynnibus:
You can't get it through your noggin... the idea of failing is not what matters here or draws any parallels... it's about the business LYING and misrepresenting themselves - which leads to the failure. Every time you skip over that part in your stories... you make yourself look like a bigger idiot.
that's exactly what my business example said. To a tee. You need to learn to read. Lying about licensing or lying about manufacturing costs/tooling, is pretty much the same damn thing and happens all the time with new business, when they are trying to get backers. The story wasn't that complicated, my example wasn't that complicated. Pretty straight forward yet, there are many who seem to can't read worth a shit.
Quoted from flynnibus:
Where in there does it talk about FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY causing them to fail? 'finding out costs are higher than expected' is not fraud. Stupidity is not fraud (tho one could argue negligence and the liability that came come with that depending on your role). 'higher than expected' is not the same thing as DECEPTION and LYING.
It is when you damn well know the numbers arn't going to work before you even start. Before you even have a company. You fudge your numbers on paper, it's the same damn thing. Why don't you quote my post where I go through the hypothetical business model step by step. You seem to magically avoid that post altogether.
Quoted from tamoore:Paul came in here pretty cocksure that he had verified the existence of the license, and that anyone who knew him would know he would NEVER work on a project that wasn't licensed.
Except that he didn't verify the license, and he did work on an unlicensed project.
Paul isn't a bad guy, but his personal and professional assurance that the license was valid is one of the reasons people continued to stay in well past the point where they should have bailed.
Understanding this doesn't assume any facts not already in evidence.
His job is to make cabinets. If someone wants a cabinet for a project, he makes it, plain and simple. It's not his job to go around and background check every customer he has. Paul really has nothing to do with this shitfest.
I did not see the post where Paul said he seen the license. I only saw where he said he had no reason to believe he didn't have a license. thats' all I saw.
But if you only make cabinets and put stickers on them, I don't think you have to worry about licensing anyway, unless the actual physical cabinet you're building is somehow copywritten.
I did not see those posts. Even tho the cabinets themselves are not under copywrite, nor is the act of applying stickers. Actually printing the stickers is another thing.
Hell, I couldn't even get a birthday cake made from the grocery store with art from video games. Even if it was art I physically drew, containing characters that would be under copywrite. That was a frustrating birthday cake.
Since no products went out the door, Paul would be safe from any lawsuits anyway. There were no products that hit the market. The real legal issue at this time, is the money taken as deposits.
the way you worded it, it was sounding like you objected to virtuapin itself as a negative thing. It wasn't one word, that's how I took that statement.
Quoted from DeeGor:
Virtuapin is probably the only vendor out there that would turn a blind eye to the copyright violations. Hell, look at vpforums.com (owned by virtuapin). Nothing but copyright violations there.
Actually, the VP forums and the downloaded material has been ok'd by Stern, as it's not direct competition for their sales. It has been discussed with Stern, and they have no problems with it, as long as they don't make tables for the boardset they currently are making.
CC's can be a huge downfall if you let it. I learned my lesson after my 20's. Never again will I have an outstanding balance on any credit card. The interest and fees will kill you.
I use my Discover for everything as I get 1.25% Cash back. Pay it off every month and no annual charges.
Quoted from lowepg:
Got be excruciating for the folks with money involved. Everything seems like "relax and wait":
SkitB - endless loop of "waiting a couple weeks for better news"
spfxted - "Just give them 2 weeks for REALLY awesome news"
Anonymous group - just wait for the pinball news story
Pinball news - just wait for Kevins response
Paypal - just wait for vendor to respond.
etc, etc, etc, etc.
It's got to feel like this....
When what you guys really ALL deserve is THIS:
**Removed by mod**
Congrats, on your first thumbs up from me in this thread.
I vote 3 thumbs up on more tits as well. Least this thread has something to offer than, because the past 20 + pages have been the same dribble talked about over and over. Least this is entertaining.
Edit: I forgot to pay contribute.
Quoted from underlord:
Porn movies too? Uh oh...
Now is that FULL movies or just choice scenes downloaded?
A friend wanted me to ask, btw...
I think if you are snagging from something like xhamster, I think you're safe. Since many companies upload their own stuff there as kind of a preview snippet. So I saw on foxnews anyway.
yes, p3 is the shit. The most revolutionary pinball to date, and the one to bring pinball to that next level. Just wish it wasn't so damn expensive.
Quoted from robertmee:
That's a bit of hyperbole....It wasn't "next thing you know" due to injustice. She fought the officer and used drugs while in jail (3x the legal limit of pot in her system). Not saying what happened wasn't a tragedy, but it was hardly due to injustice.
There is a legal limit for pot? Even if, pot is pretty much harmless. If anything. I'd think a bag of doritos would really be in danger. And maybe a big day of napping would be in order. Don't foresee that person being a threat of any kind.
I don't and never have used pot, but grew up around it. And there isn't a threat level there that would warrant violence. Now if she was on crack or something, that's a different story. Pot. nope. pot is safer than alcohol.
Quoted from robertmee:
Yes there is a legal limit for pot in regards to DUI http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/12/31/marijuana-dui_n_4520129.html
And your generalization of pot smokers as all being laid back hippies is ridiculous. Just as there are angry drunks and mellow drunks the same holds true for effects of cannabis on different people. I know this first hand as very close relatives have suffered with pot addiction their whole life. I lost my sister to it two years ago.
As for the video, I would agree both parties were at fault. She was antagonistic from the beginning. The officer had a short fuse.
Really? Have you ever seen someone that gets angry and violent under the influence of pot? I sure the hell didn't and had parents and friends that were no stranger to it. I havn't seen it once in 43 years. But I have seen plenty of violent and aggressive ass clowns due to alcohol consumption. Way more stupidity from alcohol than pot.
Quoted from TaylorVA:
Wow, so much is wrong about this. SMH.
But I can relate. I think the same thing about everyone in the far left lane with nobody in back of them driving anywhere near the speed limit.
Rule is: If someone is in back of you and nobody is in front of you, move over the the next right lane.
Pretty simple. but many don't know how to follow it. Especially MO. Apparently nobody there knows this rule at all. Out of all my travels, this state is the worst when it comes to that.
Quoted from DennisDodel:
You are 100% correct. I have lived in Missouri for 63 years. I have traveled through all of the lower 48 states many, many times. My state is definitely the worst. I have no idea why. My wife regularly states that she would like to put a machine gun on her hood to blow the offenders out of the way.
Also, cars in Missouri do not come equipped with turn signals.
no truer words were typed.
Quoted from roffels:
Can't vouch for the Missouri comment, but if you're not passing when you're on the left and there's a line behind you, I'd argue it's not idiotic to move over.
Some seem to think it's a courtesy thing, but it's not. It's actually a law. If you are hogging the left lane and not moving over, you can get a ticket. It's the law.
It must not be taught in MO then. hell, most states even have signs stating to move your ass over, if you are in the left lane being a dipshit. <---that's exactly the way the sign reads too.
Quoted from toyotaboy:
Technically the matrix guys illegally sold those machines for profit. And it's not just about skimping out on licensing, it's about protecting the brand. Imagine if someone wanted to do Hitler Vs superman.. it's only a few machines right? Well if it shows up at shows, or youtube and gets a lot of hits and DC comics finds out the machine was sold for profit, they may have an issue with that.
but anyone can make one as a one of and doesn't matter. Eventually a one of will be sold down the road. Could be a profit could not. Who knows. nothing is stopping anyone from making any theme they want.
Quoted from vid1900:
Any movie could be good.
It just needs a good script, director and actors.
Who would have ever guessed that Final Destination 5 would have been the great movie that it was?
final destination 5 was good? I didn't see it but it's not one I would think would be worth a shit.
i'm sure it's streamable. Only thing I'll lose is 2 hours, but i'll put it on while i'm restoring so nothing will be wasted. Hence how I watch a bunch of B movies...some really terrible.
Quoted from vid1900:
One can only hope.
But I do know freshly bankrupted people who started getting credit card offers again in only a few months. Worse yet, they responded and received new credit cards!
only because the credit card companies know you can't file or another 8 years. That's why they shower you with applications, not because your score is good. You score goes in the toilet from bankruptcy.
Quoted from Trekie:
It sounds like "Paul" had a bigger role in Skit Pinball than just the the cabinet guy. Partner?
no. Just because someone is hired to make parts for a company, doesn't mean they have anything to do with that company. that's like saying the company that made the troll heads for Wayne was in cahoots with him. that's just ridiculous.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:
I'm dying to see his returns.
I'm 100% certain that he never claimed all that income. I have no concrete proof, but where did all the money go? Since he didn't refund it, it's income and it's taxable.
I don't think it's considered income, until he wasn't put into the business. Like if he finished buying parts, labor, and everything else he needed. The money over the top of all that, would be considered actual income.
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