(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

5 years ago

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  • Latest reply 3 months ago by freeplay3
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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (3 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (3 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (3 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (3 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (3 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#633 5 years ago

The "private emails" are posted in full on the other thread:


1 month later
#943 5 years ago

I swear... if those beach babes don't get to team up with/ride the dinosaurs while fighting against the zombie nazis, I'm totally out.

(Also, my husband would buy this, as his favorite movie is SuckerPunch and that's basically a scene in there already. Well, without the dinos but with machine guns and school girl outfits.)

#1001 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What fiend would tilt a photo of Scarlett Johanson, the only actress under 30 who actually eats sandwiches?

Quoted from Plungemaster:

Which moran is tilting those lovely ladies all over the forum????
This is a Dutch forum, ladies allowed!

Dear everyone.

Stop getting all mad and worked up about tilting.

Tilting is not a bad thing, is not indicative of someone disagreeing with your post, is not somehow a slam against what you posted, doesn't indicate the person is a boob-hater, etc. It is simply a safety measure to let people who choose to want to not see your boob pics, half naked chicks, and questionable material NOT SEE IT. This could be because they do not like seeing questionable material, because they have young children at home, or because they look at Pinside at work and do not want to get fired because someone posted boobs all over the place. (The latter category includes myself actually. I personally have no problem with the pic contents, but I access it at work to moderate on a regular basis and refuse to lose my job because you all can't tilt pics.)

Robin has gone so far as to make tilting your own questionable posts MANDATORY, and at one point it was talked about to temp freeze accounts of people who purposely did not. That policy is not currently in place at this time, but that may change depending on circumstances. A big update is coming soon that will change a few things.

Everyone has control over their tilt threshold, and if you want to see EVERYTHING then you can. Just change your tilt settings. We're not trying to censor or edit people, we're just trying to keep it safe for people to even look at Pinside in public places.

Pasted straight from the Pinside FAQ sticky thread:

What are TILT warnings?
Sometimes a post may contain images or text not suited for all, while still falling within the Pinside rules. Let's call it "grey" content. Please tilt this using the tilt warning icon above your post. As others will do the same, this forms a user-moderated "shield" so we can all safely browse the site in public spaces, at work, or when our kids are around. TILTing your own image uploads (when needed) is mandatory. Failure to do so may earn you a Pinside rules violation warning, so please be responsible.

So TILTing is a form of censorship?
Gosh no! It's up to you how you set your TILT warning threshold. You can even disable it to see all content. TILT warnings are merely a way to protect sensitive eyes from forum content which some may regard as "dangerous" or "unsuitable".

#1004 5 years ago

Art, I know where you live. I'll hunt you down and tilt you myself.

1 week later
#1580 5 years ago

Ted, I didn't realize that you were NSFW.

1 week later
#2016 5 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

anyone who believed that skitb had some time of "special arrangement" with paypal, please pm me, i have a bridge for sale cheap...

Quoted from lowepg:

Funny thing is, folks could have figured that out in the beginning as well- it's not like the policy has changed.... but i guess people just read/heard what they wanted to hear at the time.

Quoted from Jared:

So when Kevin said this, did he really believe it to be true, or did he know what he was saying was untrue?
If this was untrue and knowingly said, what other things were said that may be equally untrue?

Quoted from Apollyon:

And to those that DO have "Predator", please note that I do not wish you ill will at all, and I truly do want you to get your game. I just doubt you will due to how things have played out over the last number of years.

Quoted from Fintan_Stack:

I am at a loss to understand how anyone could still have any faith in this project. I really hate to be a downer but I am just giving my view as an outsider with nothing on the line here.

(In case it isn't obvious, I'm now wearing my "Predator owner" hat and not my moderator hat for this post, and am only speaking for myself and not on behalf of Pinside/moderators.)

For all those on the sidelines who are watching while chomping on popcorn and just take a break now and then to snarkily imply and/or tell the ones still in on the project how stupid we are and how we should have seen this all along... please give it a break. We get it, we know, you've told us over and over just how ridiculous we were to actually put our trust in a pinball company. I mean, of course no other pinball company before has EVER had controversy, lack of communication, production issues, or extended deadlines. We were obviously just asking for it by trusting in someone that we'd dealt with for a few years instead of, in the last few weeks or so at least, trusting an anonymous group that won't give their names or sources, are supposedly linked to bigger pinball companies, and seem to be doing nothing but trying to shut down a small company by spreading hurtful rumors.

Of course if those rumors are true then we're all screwed no matter what anyway. You all do realize that even if we want out, there's no way to get out at this point, right? Skit-B hasn't been granting refunds now for at least 5 months, and before that it took someone opening a thread, claiming sick children/emergency/disaster, and getting other Pinsiders' help just to get a refund. We can't just proclaim "we're out!" and magically make it so. Those saying we should have seen the signs when the original "sky is falling" discussions started happening please realize that there were no funds to be gotten back, as apparent by the many people answering the poll or posting directly that they've tried to get their money back for months now with no response. I myself haven't gotten an actual email response from Kevin in over 8 months, other than one copy/paste reply awhile back that didn't even answer the questions that I had asked.

And yes, some people stayed in because they knew that if the rumor mills worked and people left in a mass exodus, the project would be dead from lack of funds anyway. The best way to not screw over Skit-B, ensure the company survived the rumors, and not lose your money (that you couldn't get back with an email request anyway) was to sit tight and hope for the best. We know he has money tied up in parts and there's no way everyone can get all their money back, especially if people start fleeing en mass. The rumors may be true, but then again they may just be unfounded rumors that, when mixed with the lack of communication from Kevin, killed a company.

At this point, all we can do it sit and wait. Yes, some are trying to keep their hopes up by praying that everything is ok and that we will actually get a machine. Some, like me, are mad as hell at the whole situation because we're basically helpless and at the mercy of Kevin, or the anonymous group, or Fox, or whoever is screwing us over today. And looking for answers here doesn't help when everyone on the sidelines and with no actual money tied up in this is waiting with baited breath to shout "OMG I TOLD YOU SO, BWAHAHAHAHA, I WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG AND YOU ALL ARE SO STUPID" at us. I'm already taking bets as to who will start the first "I TOLD YOU SO!" thread if this all does go to shit.

Great, so maybe you all were right. Congratulations. What good does that do the 250 (or however many are left) of us who got stuck, tried to stick it out for the good of the company/buyers, got screwed over, and lost our money? Some that are secretly poking around claim that they are "doing it for the betterment of the hobby," but I can guarantee you that me losing my paid in full $4750 is going to mean that I'm not really going to be a part of this hobby going forward. I'm not going to be able to afford new in box machines anyway, but I'm not going to trust any company to do a prepaid model. I'm not going to trust companies or groups that had a hand in bringing down a teeny competitor, and I'm certainly not going to trust my fellow pinheads who stood on the sidelines pointing/laughing and got joy out of watching this whole thing crash and burn.

#2036 5 years ago
Quoted from Fintan_Stack:

This is a bit OTT isn't it.

Possibly. But it's more of a culmination of months of frustration that finally came out. I was just highlighting some of the more negative opinions on just the last page, as I don't have time to go back through 41 pages to find/highlight more. I'm sorry if I offended you, as that wasn't my intent. I simply quoted you for the "how could anyone still have faith in this project" as I was addressing the fact that whether we have faith or if we don't have faith and want out, we're still stuck and in the same place. Everyone is yelling for us to get out, but there's no way at this point.

Quoted from ezeltmann:

Can't believe a forum with mostly anonymous participants has a segment of negative postings.

Actually, the last 35 pages or so of this thread have been one big negative posting, with the exception of an occasional new pinball theme translite or boob/chick pics. And sadly this is the "good thread" that survived when we closed down about 6 more that were even more negative.

Quoted from Decat:

I really do feel for you, but if the $4750 makes that big of a difference in your life, then you definitely should not have invested it in a startup.

As a few have said above, hindsight. I prepaid over a year ago when everything was all wonderful and great and the Skit-B train was rolling right along. Now I've got a husband who is at home sick and using the last of his PTO to the point of his job being possibly on the line, a friend in surgery as I type this, and a mother-in-law who's pre-op for a foot surgery that will leave her dependant on me for over 10 weeks since husband has no PTO and we're the only family in town. Would I have signed up for an expensive pinball machine in the current situation? Nope. Luckily this is the only machine that I preordered, as I know of people who are in on multiple machines that have yet to exist.

Quoted from lowepg:

"Not trust"?
You might "not like", I think the ONLY mistrust needs to be aimed at the person who took your money and made the promises - not the critics, FOX or Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Just for the record, I'm currently not mad at Arnold Schwarzenegger... yet. And yes, I am mad at Kevin first and foremost for the sheer silence and all the speculation and issues that it is causing. The business was his to save or kill just on honesty and communication. But I'm definitely aggravated at the ones that claim to have all the info and know all the answers, but yet purposely stay anonymous and only talk in rumors, because either they are right and they've purposely stayed silent about it except to random/special people who are sworn to secrecy, or they're wrong and killed a business with rumors.

I'm also not saying that 'any' criticism on here is bad. I am not talking about most of Pinside and know most are just along for the ride because it's the latest coolest soap opera at the moment now that WOZ is out and apparently something is going on with JPop. Also, mention of a "special PayPal plan" didn't come along until the last few month, did it? I honestly can't keep up with all the rumors and non-emails we're getting these days.

Sadly, I am at work and cannot contribute a Jennifer Connelly picture. So I'll just reitterate that, while I think she is gorgeous, blondes rule.

#2054 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I think you're completely misinterpreting many people's posts. I absolutely do not get that above vibe from most of the posts you quoted. Please, direct your anger at those who lied to you and stole your money, and not those who are simply commenting on the CURRENT clusterf*ck situation.

I already said:

Quoted from blondetall:But it's more of a culmination of months of frustration that finally came out. I was just highlighting some of the more negative opinions on just the last page, as I don't have time to go back through 41 pages to find/highlight more.

Quoted from blondetall:

Actually, the last 35 pages or so of this thread have been one big negative posting,

Quoted from blondetall:

I'm also not saying that 'any' criticism on here is bad. I am not talking about most of Pinside and know most are just along for the ride because it's the latest coolest soap opera at the moment now that WOZ is out and apparently something is going on with JPop.

Quoted from blondetall:

And yes, I am mad at Kevin first and foremost for the sheer silence and all the speculation and issues that it is causing. The business was his to save or kill just on honesty and communication.

I wasn't trying to highlight those particular people as the ones I was directing my little rant at, by any means. In all honestly, I woke up in a pissed off mood because once again my husband was too sick to work, checked the normal moderator report drama, checked the last couple of pages on the Predator thread drama, checked my lack of any email response from Kevin (1 week and counting on my last email,) realized that there's another week to go before we possibly learn anything at all because of some supposed deadline that nobody really knows anything about, and that post just happened.

I'm frustrated, I'm tired, I'm impatient, and I'm angry... and not at you bystanders on here. I know most of you are just speculating and/or trying to help, but constantly hearing how stupid anyone still in the project is (even if you are just indicating the loud cheerleaders, because we're all stuck in this sinking boat together now) just keeps the wounds fresh and deep, with a side of salt. I don't know what the truth is, I don't know who to believe, I don't have any idea what is going on, and nobody that actually does is willing to step up and give details. I'm sorry to those that are innocent and simply standing in the blast zone of my anger explosion, and I will gladly provide the next round of popcorn for you. Theater style, extra butter, extra salt. Someone get me that popcorn wagon.

#2139 5 years ago

Finally something for the ladies to look at.

And by ladies, I mean me. I'm pretty sure I'm the only one here, though, so carry on with the boob pics. I don't mind those either.

#2147 5 years ago
Quoted from iceman44:

And we don't need any more Dude pics with apologies to Blondetall

I 1000% agree if you all are just going to post Machinist pics. That fish-face sketelon one is going to give me nightmares tonight.

#2194 5 years ago

We break this important thread of chick pics to announce that those who are looking for actual Predator information can be assured that once any "official" word from Kevin is presented, it will be posted in the thread linked below. That thread is locked and only updated by moderators when we receive information directly from Skit-B. So if you are looking for no speculation, no rumors, no chick pics, and just the facts... please favorite that thread and check it for updates.


We now return you to your completely off the rails trainwreck of a thread. Because honestly, there's not much topic to get back on track with until we get word from Kevin.


#2419 5 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

Did I miss something? You make it sound as if it is fact that they don't have some licenses that were shown in the prototype.

I think the only thing that we're missing is facts and actual responses from people who know what the hell is going on, really.

I believe this is speculation on the "what if they don't have the license" post by Ben Heck or someone in the last few pages. The current winner in the speculation/rumor/"bored and therefore dreaming up shit in the meantime to have something to do" race is that there is no license, followed closely by there being a problem with the license, that the time limit ran out for the license, supply issues, competitor bullying, competitor sabotage, anonymous group sabotage, Kevin leaving the country and buying an island, Kevin building a robot dinosaur (which I'm kind of hoping for so that I can steal it,) robot zombie Nazis in space, and that brunettes are somehow better than blondes.

#2448 5 years ago
Quoted from Half_Life:

Would that be Photoshopped or non-Photoshopped?

I thought that the beauty of Photoshop was that you can be anything you want to be. Today I wouldn't mind being a fire-breathing unicorn, because that looks pretty cool.

One thing that I'm sad about is that I'll never know if my NIB Predator was going to have a pony hidden inside.

#2472 5 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Don't be sad Blondie...
If I had $4750 Id buy you your REAL pony. But...
Keep in mind that you need to take care of it! That means wash it, feed it and clean its poopies young lady!!

Thanks. I have had three horses (TN Walkers) before, one at a time over about 7 years, and loved them all very much. However, I have no place to keep them and had to board them. Once I got married and bought a house, my mortgage was cheaper than my horse's boarding fee. Plus I never got to see him for working all the time to pay for his upkeep so I eventually rehomed him. I was telling my husband the other day that although the pinball machines run about as much as the horse cost, at least they don't require additional hundreds of dollars a month to board or feed.

And no, I don't think any of us actually expected a well typed explanation promptly at noon today, but at least it was a date/something to look forward to on this train wreck of a ride. To my understanding, nobody has actually gotten a refund from Kevin in 2015, or if they have they've been very quiet about it.

#2905 5 years ago

He's got 10 playfields, 10 cabinets, parts for 10 machines.... and Backalley custom parts for 250 Predators. We've seen pics. Other than that, what else he has spent money on is speculation unless someone has insider info.

#2918 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Unfortunately it would seem those 10 games were never approved by the studio.

Oh, I'm not saying that there's 10 games ready. I was just counting what we knew for sure that he had spent on parts as far as the expendatures talk above. I doubt those 10 games will ever be built, as-is or otherwise at this rate.

Edit- I've said many times that I'll take a "build it yourself" Predator puzzle kit. I contemplated putting some options on my refund email, like:

A. $4750 returned
B. $4250, a playfield, and a few spine bones/skulls
C. $1000 and Predator puzzle in a box

Right now I'm apparently getting D... none of the above.

#3221 5 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

If you want to talk with Kevin, all of his info is listed on any website that tells you the registrant info for websites (I.e. Skitbpinball.com). Apparently I get banned by posting the direct link to public information on this site....
But he's only stolen ~$5k from me and many other people here, so fcuk me, Amirite mods?!?

Quoted from metallik:

Really... you got banned for posting a WHOIS link?

Let's get one thing straight. Nobody got banned. We can't even ban these days, as there are no ban votes. We can send a warning, we can thread eject, and we can completely freeze/shut down your account in case of spam or toxic meltdown. That's it. The fact that you are still posting means that none of those happened. I haven't even looked behind the scenes yet because I'm just catching up, but I'm guessing they edited your post (to remove the link) which auto-sends a response to you.

I woke up this morning to a ton of back/forth that went on between the mods overnight on whether they should edit that information. It IS personal information, which we do not allow per community rules, and we don't want to be responsible for a pitchfork-wielding mob showing up at his house. Then again, it is listed under his business details, which we do allow to be posted. I believe it was decided for now that just the link itself would be removed. However, since everyone has posted exactly where to find the info and what to search, it is not secret information.

#3254 5 years ago

Something to read while we are all sitting around waiting for our email responses:


#3652 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

You can divide up the remaining money for pre-order folks but you obviously can't divide up a couple dozen skeleton toys (assuming he didn't make all 250) to give folks as part of their money lost.

I'm pretty sure all 250 were made. I think we've seen pics of them all. Anywhoo, if I'm not getting a machine and I'm not getting all my money, I'll certainly take one set of spine bones, skulls, claw, and hanging guy in lieu of nothing at all. Then I'll put them in a little case in my arcade, with this sign:

Predator had one.jpg
#5003 5 years ago

I put this in the Predator PayPal thread, but I'll share it here too just in case it helps anyone.

Quoted from blondetall:

We paid the remainder of the balance last March via PayPal but backed with a credit card. It was actually over a year ago so we thought we were out of luck, but others were trying with some success so we called and talked to the dispute center at Chase. Since we paid in advance and weren't expecting the machine until Q4 (if it had started on time then and with our build # being halfway-ish) they put down 12/31/14 as the expected date and opened a chargeback dispute. I'd already paid off the card so there's no "temporary" funds showing or anything at all happening per the website, so I called them and they said it is in process and Kevin has 60 days/2 billing cycles to dispute before they can issue the money back.
So, despite it being over a year, as long as there's no dispute from him, I may get some of my money back. And if he tries to dispute it, there's going to be a big fight. So we paid through PayPal but everything is taking place with the credit card company instead. My advice to anyone in the same situation is to tell them something similar to the above, as we do have the emails showing where production was supposed to start in early/mid 2014 and funds were asked for at the time for sourcing parts. It was a prepayment with a calculatable timeline that will put expected dates more in the range of the chargeback time limits than the date that you actually paid.

#5457 5 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Predator MODS!
Anyone need a Neca Playfield Skull Set?
Too soon? Too Late? pred.JPG (Click image to enlarge)

I've got 2 boxes of those skulls and the official Predator, Jungle Dutch, and Predator-vision Dutch figurines. I've taken Predator off my wishlist but haven't had the heart to clear off my shelf of Pred-related stuff yet. I think I'm going to keep the skulls in case we ever get an Alien pin, or just made a big pile of them for my T-Rex to stomp around in. He's having fun screaming his disappointment at Arnold these days anyway.

Pred Rex.jpg
Pred Rex 2.jpg

#5594 5 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

I am expressing disappointment with their decision to take no action when a neutral statement could have been made with ease.

Quoted from starfighter:

So now the moderators have no responsibility or accountability to members here or is it just a selective responsibility applied every now and then?
While I appreciate the hypothetical argument you're making, I'll stand behind my assessment that their decision to take no action was a mistake and I will further state that if I was in possession of the information at the time and Kevin did ignore my queries, I would have absolutely no problem informing pinside of the situation.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Do you expect the mods to repost that unsubstantiated claim with a 'neutral statement' saying "it has been brought to our attention, through a source we can not identify that these people are unworthy of dealing with on pinside - but we can't confirm or deny who these people are"

Quoted from GGBGROUP:

The idea of this site having a moderator's rule about notifying the board when they receive an anonymous tip of some sort will simply never work. Don't you all think it would quickly be abused by EVERYONE who has an agenda, or just wants to stir the pot.

Quoted from blondetall:

The rumors may be true, but then again they may just be unfounded rumors that, when mixed with the lack of communication from Kevin, killed a company.

Ok, once again I'm only speaking for myself here, but if anyone reads the one big rant that I posted on here awhile back and realizes that I did that as someone who had a whole lot of "nothing" to report and was going insane by it, it may make more sense. I wasn't mad at the bystanders here, which I tried to explain and apologized for. I was mad at the deluge of unofficial second-hand rumors and assumptions that we were being given, by well-intended people who may or may not have been given the truth themselves, and no way to prove or disprove anything.

There is no way that we could have made a statement that would have made everyone happy and not caused panic. I don't know what kind of "neutral statement" would have done anything but put a big bullseye on our backs, as there was so much crap going around that we couldn't even keep it straight. And what were we supposed to create a neutral statement on? The current situation just a fraction of the rumors that have been flying around. We can't make a statement about every rumor we hear, or we (moderators and Pinsiders alike) would all quickly go insane. Heck, I'm halfway there now just with this whole Predator mess.

And I can guarantee you that we didn't have any special information that we used to get ourselves out of the situation first before letting everyone else know, because about half of us are preowners and are still right there with everyone else, trying to get a refund/chargeback and sad/mad that 3 years of our lives have been wasted on a machine that we're never going to get.

Not a single email was sent directly to us from the anonymous group (hereto referred to as AG.) The AG was sending individuals emails then telling them not to release information, or to only release to certain people, or whatever. Some people had written them back and asked who they were, and they said (and I am paraphrasing here since I don't have the emails) "It doesn't matter who we are. We could be part of the industry, or a Pinside moderator, or nobody, and the information would be the same." So since they specifically said moderator, people would send it to us.

They claimed there was no license at all, but they couldn't prove it. Then we had people that worked with Kevin on here vouching that they had seen a license and/or wouldn't work with someone without a license, so we were at a draw. It seemed at one point that there were two AGs because some emails were concerned about the buyers first and foremost, and the others specifically just wanted to expose Kevin as a liar at all costs and referred to the owners as stupid "clapping seals" and didn't care what happened to their money. They got progessively more smug depending on who they were emailing at the time. So the information didn't even line up with what we had from supposedly the same group.

And it wasn't just the AG. Some people had before questioned how I might possibly think that some group or company had a part in bringing down Skit-B other than just Kevin himself. If I was supposed to take stock in the AG emails then I had to at least entertain the other rumors going around from other anonymous groups or people.

About four months ago the rumor was that when Heighway came out with Alien and they were talking about all the trouble they had getting the artwork approved, people started questioning how Predator got approval, started poking around asking more questions with Fox, Fox realized that they had given the wrong type of license to Kevin which didn't encompass everything that they told him it did for the amount of money they charged, and then Fox demanded more money. They also demanded manufacturing be in place, which Kevin didn't have and was trying to get. Hence the "give me more time" requests because he was having to line that up and get contracts done.

Secondary rumors said that Fox themselves didn't contact Skit-B, but groups of people had contacted Fox to ask about it. That seems to be the most truthful of the rumors so far.

There was also rumor that there was a parts supply issue. Emails showing the same parts and nothing being built seemed to help support this, but the main rumor was that the trough assembly was having to be redone or rebuilt somehow because vendors weren't supplying them due to competitors using their buying power/muscle to block needed parts and slow down/shut down production. It didn't help that other companies/employees were linked to the initial reports of there being licensing problems, but all of this was given to us second hand as well.

Secondary rumor on this was that the competitors knew there was a time limit on the licensing and were doing everything they could to push production past that time limit so it would cost more money to relicense it and/or kill the project which they may/may not be trying to get for themselves.

Then there's the rumors associated with Skit-B themselves, compounded by lack of communication and/or cryptic emails from Kevin. Rumors of more money needed for licensing means bringing in another investor/manufacturer who will then make the run unlimited and cost more. Rumors that the current rumors had enough people dropping out that there was a run on the bank and the project was doomed no matter what, so the only hope was to stay in and hope there were enough left to pull it off or attempt to get a refund (which nobody was able to do anyway) and watch the project crumble. Rumors that there are last-minute licensing deals being made and a manufacturer set up but it will take a week or two for the contracts, and if anything is said before the contracts are signed then everything will fall apart.

And since nobody is standing up showing proof, all of it is speculation and rumors. And the more secretive emails we got, the more stories and versions we got. Do you know how many hours of my life I've spent on Pinside, talking behind the scenes, trying to get information for not only myself but my fellow Pinsiders stuck in the same situation? How much time of my own time I've devoted trying to find out "the truth" and then trying to help with credit card chargeback info once "the truth" came out and we were all still screwed?

I can guarantee you that had we received an email from an individual that said:
"Hello, I am ___. Here are my credentials, you know me on Pinside as ____, feel free to check my posts. I have contacted ____ at Fox and talked with them regarding the Predator license. There is no license, and they can confirm that. Their phone # is ______, their email is _______, and my contact information is _____. Please feel free to reach out to myself or that person as proof, and distribute the information as needed to help the Predator pre-owners and/or Kevin get out of this situation as quickly and easily as possible."
... that we all would have immediately validated the information, passed it along, and saved ourselves and EVERYONE time, worry, pain, and money.

#5612 5 years ago
Quoted from jkdblaze:

You wouldn't blame him for shutting down the primary pinball site on the internet for a couple of comments made at moderators in a thread? I would sure as hell hope he has a stronger will then that. And I have no doubt that he does, otherwise I wouldn't waste my time here.

Nah, we mods have had a few Youtube rant videos aimed at us and some psychos cyber-stalking us, and yet Pinside survived. I don't think some comments will do it... we're pretty tough. Or at least stubborn.

#5627 5 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Wow! I really do sympathize. It's been a nightmare and still is. Wouldn't it be worthwhile though to ask a couple questions, if not to protect the community, to save you mods all the grief that goes along with a bad vendor?
You want to build 250 pins huh? What's your federal tax ID? "I don't have one..."
Show me your right to use the IP. "Well, I can't, but I really do have it."
At this point, they can get the f out of here and come back when they do have those things. Congratz! You just saved yourselves and everyone else a bunch of grief.

That very well may be something to look into in the future. You've got to realize that Predator/Skit-B was started around 3 years ago. I myself was a newbie trying to figure out my first pinball machine 3 years ago. I've been a mod for 2 years now, I believe. I think it was a completely different time then. You had one big company, one starting-up "hopefully big" company, and a bunch of little home-brew companies all trying to get a piece of the pinball pie. Now that a couple of the little ones have failed and a few others are in limbo, there's a different light on things. Maybe Robin will want to start quantifying new companies as we go forward, but I'm not going to try to speak on his behalf.

I do know that we do spend a lot of time worrying about copyright infringements already, asking people for proof that they have the right to make products that are brought into question through reports to us, and closing threads until they show us that proof. If it gets to the point that we are asking everyone for proof of contracts, licenses, copyrights, business deals, etc, then we're going to have to get quite a few more moderators to be able to handle everything. And, as a few have said before, everyone is going to see less modifications legally available on here. I honestly don't know how far Robin wants to delve into the legalities of it all, but anyone with suggestions or comments please open a Moderator Feedback thread and let us know your thoughts so maybe we can work something out to avoid this type of situation in the future.

#5901 5 years ago

Like I said before, the emails and snippets that I was seeing as "from the AG" never seemed to match up. They had different tones, with some concerned about owners and some just out for blood and to hurt Kevin at all costs, basically saying the owners had it coming to them so they got what they deserved. If those emails were indeed from the same group, I think at least one of them has a hatred for Kevin that overrides everything else, including what is best for the ones with money still tied up in this. Now it seems like they've backed off, which I think is best for all involved, as there's still a lot of anger and frustration going on and it's being pointed at any target to be found. Maybe them backing down will lower the flames and pitchforks a bit.

Hopefully Kevin is doing something and we'll actually see refunds coming in soon, or at least an email about what is going on. I'm also hoping that he'll make some sort of statement about credit card chargebacks and if he'll dispute them, as most have a timespan (30-60 days on some) that everything is still on hold and in limbo. We're all still sitting and waiting for the first hint of a refund to anyone, and waiting sucks. If anyone does get any good news at all, or a glimmer of it, please share. If anyone is still working on credit card chargebacks, I'll repost my advice here in case it got lost in the masses.

Quoted from earlier in this thread:
We paid the remainder of the balance last March via PayPal but backed with a credit card. It was actually over a year ago so we thought we were out of luck, but others were trying with some success so we called and talked to the dispute center at Chase. Since we paid in advance and weren't expecting the machine until Q4 (if it had started on time then and with our build # being halfway-ish) they put down 12/31/14 as the expected date and opened a chargeback dispute. I'd already paid off the card so there's no "temporary" funds showing or anything at all happening per the website, so I called them and they said it is in process and Kevin has 60 days/2 billing cycles to dispute before they can issue the money back.
So, despite it being over a year, as long as there's no dispute from him, I may get some of my money back. And if he tries to dispute it, there's going to be a big fight. So we paid through PayPal but everything is taking place with the credit card company instead. My advice to anyone in the same situation is to tell them something similar to the above, as we do have the emails showing where production was supposed to start in early/mid 2014 and funds were asked for at the time for sourcing parts. It was a prepayment with a calculatable timeline that will put expected dates more in the range of the chargeback time limits than the date that you actually paid.

2 weeks later
#6893 5 years ago

Oh, I see we're still posting chick pics for some reason. Here, let me contribute.

#6918 5 years ago
Quoted from Perspex:

Our boobs man! They're gone...

(Glances down.) Nope, mine are still here. Must be a conspiracy.

Quoted from underlord:

Thanks Blondetall. You've destroyed Linda Carter fantasies AND the Fifth Element for me in one post.

Then my job here is done. Be glad I didnt post the Spiderman one I have.

Seriously though, someone make me a 5th Element pin. Multipass multiball.

#7017 5 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

Project has been suffering since 2013, when they started bleeding team members, it barely worked at Expo even with a proven system (PROC) and their website went dark.
And yes, I'm bitter. I'd rather have your money in my pocket in exchange for a game than Kevin doing god knows what with whatever's left.

I understand that it had to be rough watching Skit-B sell out with a waiting list while non-licensed AHM limped along for a little bit trying to sell 100 units despite people claiming they wanted original unlicensed games. And surely it hurt that it didnt get much recognition even when it was the first boutique game made and delivered. It had to feel good that interest in AMH rose greatly after Predator was a dead project and (to my understanding) AMH has now sold out. And I honestly have no clue what, if any, kind of relationship/communication/drama there was between Skit-B and Benheck/AMH.

But the constant bashing and blatant piling-on of how awful the Predator game was by you since the project failed has rubbed me the wrong way as completely unprofessional. It reeks of a bitter rival gloating that the competition failed and rubbing it in the faces of buyers to prove that they backed the wrong machine. After months of worry, heartache, money loss, and anger, it just seems the last thing we need is a revered member of the pinball community and talented pinball designer pointing at us and calling us stupid for ever wanting a

If I did have the money (which of course I do not) I wouldnt be sending it to your pockets now. I'm not saying that AMH is bad, by any means, just that your business etiquette has jaded me in regards to it. Just my honest opinion, which of course means nothing, and I do respect you and what you have accomplished. Congratulations on getting it produced, delivered, and having everything lined up to continue your business for more games to come.

#7054 5 years ago

Robertmee... you are absolutely right about it being virtually impossible to post any opinions as a "non-mod" when there's a mod status beside my name. Which is why I tried to quantify the whole post as "my opinion" and not anything said with my moderator hat on. I'm on here for hours a day but rarely ever post anything of substance because of that reason. I bite my tongue quite a bit, but occasionally it gets away from me. Anything I say automatically carries more weight to it because of my status, and that was basically the point that I was trying to make to Ben as well. Him making those posts carried much more weight as a manufacturer and highly respected member of the hobby than anyone else, just like now apparently my opinion is "over the top" because I am also a mod.

I do understand where his feelings come from given the history of Pred vs AMH, which I went into great detail about. And if he wants to post it, I'm sure as heck (ha) not going to stop him. But it doesn't mean that I can't have an opinion also, which I tried to write as objectively as possible with understanding to his situation. There was no hatred or bitterness backing that post, just disappointment really, but if it "reeks of personal involvement and butt hurt" then I apologize. My butt is currently pretty zen, but I'm in a much better position all-around than most since I'm just waiting out the hold time on my chargeback to expire to get back most of my money instead of "silence limbo" on all of it like many are. That was a sincere congrats to him as well, no sarcasm at all. (I can't even fix my broken pins, much less make one from scratch and start my own company, so he deserves lots of credit.)

I was just trying to say that if I had the money in hand and was actively looking to buy a NIB pin to fill the hole that Predator left, that his posts would have turned me off and made me not even consider his pin as an option. But at this point I've realized that I have no business or reason to be spending $5K on a new pin anyway. There are hundreds of cheaper used games that I've never even played, and I can't justify spending that much money anyway for only myself and my husband to occasionally play it in our pinball desert.

Ben/Spooky- I knew that you were printing the playfields and plastics, but wasn't aware that you were working extensively on the UV issues. I know someone that spent months and hundreds of their own dollars trying to find the right bulb set-up to make the UV work... with no results, no thanks, and no reimbursement from Kevin. I want you to know that I appreciate the hard work that obviously went into that. Also, I think "SOLAR FRICKIN' ROADWAYS" sometimes when driving over the new bumpy-tiled (non-solar) pedestrian crossings in town.

#7495 5 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Honest question, can the mods lock Skit-B's (Kevin's) Pinside account? Or is there another way to prevent him from scrubbing (editing) all of hist posts? (If he hasn't already, but I doubt it.) I'm sure all of his comments on here can be used against him in a lawsuit. In this thread in particular I'm seeing a lot of claims such as "officially licensed".
I'm not sure how Kevin hearing a "here is what is considered fair use of IP" translated into "officially licensed." He just cannot claim ignorance there. No jury or judge in the world would believe it.

When someone recently (mistakenly) said that Kevin was deleting posts, I personally went in and locked any thread started by Kevin. At the time it was showing that he hadn't logged in since early December and I couldn't find any blank posts, so I checked with Robin concerning his posts in other threads or his account in general. Robin doesn't want to lock the account on the off chance that Kevin actually comes here to post something, but nobody (but mods/Robin) can completely delete posts anyway. The only thing that can be done is editing and removing the text but the post box remains, PLUS the servers have back-ups so it wouldn't truly be deleted anyway. So... we're all good for now if he does try something.

#7509 5 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

I have heard this before - that Kevin has not logged in since December. I would bet anything that he has read every single post in this thread. He just isn't logged in. He may have even created a new account. He is stupid...but he took $1Million from people here. He is building a defense based on every comment here. Be careful how much information you give him on this very public forum.

To edit/try to delete his posts, he would have to be in his account... which hasn't been logged into since Dec 3 2014. But since we've got 190 guests online as I type this, of course he can see things without logging in.

Quoted from Nibbles:

Maybe his mom reads the posts for him, and gives a rough overview?

It does look like her account was a bit more recently accessed than his.

3 weeks later
#8348 5 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

My wife and I joke about this all the time. Having a baby is this weird mutation event that turns moms into one of several things (or all).
- Professional Photographer that just bought a DSLR- Selling essential oils, thirty one, sex toys, or any other MLM scheme they can get involved in- Nutrition/Cooking/Health blogger- Crossfit expert

I used to be one of the top 10 sellers in one of these types of companies when they were new, then once they turned into a "recruit every single person you can" pyramid scheme I bailed out quick. I went from earning free trips to Vegas, NYC, and Naples Florida to only getting my hotel paid for at training and getting emails saying "since you aren't recruiting, we are dropping your buying discount to below what new people sign up at." Screw that.

I know all about market saturation and that the average busy housewife can't run a business as well as I could with my marketing degree... but they didn't care. You'd be amazed at how hard they market and push their "sales reps" to go after new moms and lonely housewives, because they need extra spending money and/or some purpose in life. It's pretty predatory... and that's how I'm linking this back to Predator.

4 weeks later
#8871 5 years ago

Just as an FYI to those that have refunds "in progress"... I have had my credit card chargeback "in progress" since early March. I was told that it would take 30-60 days, and it has been 90 now with no resolution or final outcome and still pending. So I am very glad that it looks like some good news finally, but be aware that it may take awhile for anything to become official.

2 years later
#17066 3 years ago

Guys... just a reminder... if you see something on here that needs to be moderated, report it and/or start a feedback thread. Posting for a mod to do something in the thread doesn't mean that it's going to be seen, and repeatedly quoting and discussing the thing you want removed just makes it that much harder for us to clean things up. Due to special circumstances with this thread we were checking into a few things, not ignoring you.

Quoted from Groo:

Is it just me to think it's wrong that Predator has a link on this site? That should be taken off of the list of pinball machines on Pinside and not have it's own link.

The main reason a Predator machine was even loaded in the database was to be able to track/link threads on the same subject. Per Robin's rules these days this is the only Predator thread allowed, but once upon a time there were many. This information has been put on the machine's info page:
"Due to rumored issues with the lack of licensing and after fierce community speculation culminating in a Pinballnews.com article outlining all the facts, the project was finally canceled on March 24th, 2015 and Kevin Kulek was soon faced with lawsuits from customers who had paid deposits on the unproduced game."

And it is helpful to some people who may be doing research that the threads are all still linked, as "There are 120 forum topics linked to this game."

11 months later
#17994 2 years ago

Guys, be on the lookout for a letter. I got one from the bankruptcy courts today with an update. I am not home to be able to post it, but assumed the new postings would be about it. If nobody posts before I can get back home, I will post.

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