(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

4 years ago

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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)

Topic indices are generated from key posts and maintained by Pinside Editors. For more information, or to become an editor yourself read this post!

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#148 4 years ago

I would expect a longer wait on the refund front. My assumption is they spent most if not all of the money on parts to assemble the games per SkitB email. There is likely no money to facilitate a refund at this time. Once they start shipping and request final payment then you'll likely get a refund - but you're looking a few months out (only my guess).

I wonder if there still is a waiting list. And if there is, I don't think Skit B wants to mess around with collecting money, refunding money, writing checks for more parts they missed, and hoping they keep all checks & balances in order. It's all a big distraction for a small shop. Thus, part of why I think they are going a little dark. Kick out a few games to first 10 owners and then everyone will get the "exclusive 250 & Predator" fever again. Bet on people who asked for a refund will opt now to stay in instead of admin processing nightmare. Educated guess on my part - no facts.

Not saying this is right since they stated a return policy that should allow for your money back now. I'm just guessing reality is setting in and different than they expected.

1 week later
#224 4 years ago

Sorry to do this but I guess I require pinside help like a few others before me in this thread. I've tried to go direct email route and SkitB support has gone dark again.

Situation changed for me back in September and I requested a refund (#9, Production #14). I did receive a reply from Skit B many weeks later. Fast forward, we've been in communications again over last three weeks (very minimal) requesting refund again but no action. Like two other pinsiders before me in this thread, I would appreciate assistance. (Jet or whysnow maybe you guys can email in a favor).

I believe in SkitB and the Predator pin will be a success. Good group of guys over there and fellow collectors. I'm sorry I had to post on pinside request for assistance - I normally wouldn't - but hopefully this expedites my request and allows someone else to move in my coveted spot.

#237 4 years ago
Quoted from loren3233:

Sorry to hear this badbilly.

Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

From the get go we have been told we could get a refund at any time, skit-b get your act together and refund badbilly27.

Quoted from nephasth:

but badbilly stated he backed out for personal reasons.

Thanks guys. To reiterate, personal reasons have had me requesting a refund. I do believe Predator will be built and turn out well. I'm just hoping coming to pinside will aid in the expedition as going it alone has not proven effective.

#244 4 years ago

Update: Just sent another email to Skit B support tonight as I have still not received a reply (9 days running).

#254 4 years ago
Quoted from MarcG:

I tried reaching them for a few weeks about a refund. Only once I started complaining here did I get it. Disappointed I won't be getting this game but I couldn't stomach this business model. Good luck, I think you will get refunded eventually.

Thanks MarcG. I tried keeping my request offline out of respect for Kev and the project. Left no choice but to hope for a nudge from the pinside community.

#255 4 years ago

Update: Nov 11th last communication from Skit B and today is Nov 23rd. Sent 5 emails in between those dates. Just wow.

#274 4 years ago

I just received an email back from Kev. Will update shortly.

#278 4 years ago

My issue is resolved. Thanks to another pinsider for the assistance.

I wish the Predator project much success.

#327 4 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

We've also seen Kevin working with Pinball Refinery to add an enhanced lighting option to the game.

Because the main black light function doesn't work to reveal Predator so dazzle with light changers instead. I'm sorry that reads so negative.

#356 4 years ago

You can go to the 3:59 mark in the video to just watch the live battle.

#383 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

If memory services, the game is using assets from the movie that you would not have if you didn't have the license (e.g. in a format that you could not to just rip out of the film). I'm pretty sure there are calls outs that don't have the original sound track and sound effects behind them.

I see no issue with Kevin not trying to appease those on pinside, that is a battle you can never win. I think all of the manufactures have found keeping it to a minimum, while not popular, is probably the best course of action.

However, I would like to see Skit-b be more responsive to emails around refunds. I don't know what the policy/agreement was at sign-up, so I don't know whether folks are entitled to refunds and at what time frame. Regardless, they did set up an email address, and while I don't expect them to respond immediately I do believe they should be responding within a few business days with at least an acknowledgment. Of course I am now going on 5 weeks waiting on a response from PPS (having sent four emails), so, take that for what it is worth.

Agree with this post Rosh

I just recently exited the project after having one of the earliest spots - #9 production #14.

That being said, I do not believe there is a license issue. My opinion, I do think like all pinball start ups it's turning out much harder than first anticipated. Whether it's suppliers, waiting on parts, or challenges with assembly line planning - this would be common for any of the new pinball companies. Even industry vets have run into these challenges (well, exception AMH).

I agree, Kevin doesn't have to appease all those on pinside - it's a no win situation. He'll never make all of us happy. Only when the game ships will some on pinside finally put down the pitchforks.

However, the communication and refund situation with owners is abysmal. My hypothesis, based on some elements of fact, is that Skit B planned to create an "owners only" experience. Pull down all video in the public domain, create owners only website to follow production, and at Expo only verified owners get to play - a special club. Sort of following JPOP approach. Unfortunately, they failed to deliver on any of it and made the situation a whole lot worse with owners. Add to that successful TBL marketing blitzkrieg right when EOD was to be unveiled and I think Kev just gave up on the whole make owners feel special thing. I think there is a conflict of identity. Will they be a boutique or with EOD were they planning to cater to a more mass Stern segment?? Right now holding on to catering only to Predator fanboys. The refund communications are to be ashamed of. Say what you will of JJP - they answered emails, phone, and delivered on refund policy. Not my place to speculate, just unacceptable business practice when return policy stated up front.

I was, and still am, very disappointed in the main feature of the painted reveal Predator not working and no acknowledgement to that fact (to owners). There was a tent two booths over at Expo we could have coffin carried it over to prove it worked. The fact no one did and now announce a new lighting kit (which is cool btw) leaves one to conclude a fail. Then just tell owners, you tried and need to cut bait on it. We get it - it happens. But for those that believe it's not being shown so to delight owners when they get the machine - with respect I call BS. I digress, as now I sound like a broken record on this one.

All this being said, I SINCERELY hope all 250 Predators get made and owners are super happy. I hope Skit B learns from this experience and improves communications at least with owners - and acknowledges mistakes along the way. I also hope they rebuild the bridge with non-customer collectors who are hoping for their success but dismayed at the lack of even general industry communications.

#402 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

5. Some refunds have been issued to previous owners. Given the original stipulation that you ONLY get a refund when your spot is taken ($$$ already spent on parts) we can only come to the logical conclusion that while these people are a giant PITA and a huge distraction, SkitB has been going through the effort to backfill these jumpers with people still on the waitlist and refund deposits. Take note, if you are getting a refund it means there is still a waitlist, so even through there are some vocal haters on pinside, ITRL there are still currently 250 real pinheads that have faith in this game.

Whoa, hit a small nerve I left the Predator project for personal reasons and don't consider myself a PITA for asking for one. Respectfully my friend, you keep stating a return policy that I don't remember when I signed up (and in the original thread I asked). Here's a cut and paste from the Skit B thread where the game was first announced by Kev himself:

"When your game is about to go out onto the shop floor, you will be contacted in advance. You make your deposit and the game gets built. Once the game is done, you simply pay the remainder and get your game. If you need to opt out of your pre-order, you can just contact us before your game is coming up and let us know. Of course, your pre-order spot and number would go back up for grabs, as well."

All this said, I'm confident Skit B will deliver. I would strongly suggest everyone who questions licenses and other smaller details go back to the original thread. When Kev was communicating (2 years ago) he touched on the licenses but clearly stated he could not go deeper based on legal restrictions. It was a very honest dialogue and well written.

#405 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Sorry Billy, but from a business perspective if I were on the other side of the coin I would consider people asking for a refund just 5 months after they put it in a PITA. I would not tell them to their face, but would be thinking it in my head.

I get you now - fair point. It's a distraction for sure, but owners entitlement based on stated policy.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Granted if I were on the other side of the coin, I would have a private owners club set up by now with weekly picture updates (even when things are not progressing) in order to keep those that provided the 750k of deposits happy. Easy to keep people informed than deal with refund crap IME. If I were building this game you would have sold every other game in your collection before even thinking of bailing

+1^^ You and I also have very similar tastes so I'm sure your game would be of my liking.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Either way, glad you got your cash and are out of your spot.


#421 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I talk to Kevin regularly. But I do know the guy is working hard doing the best he can right now.

My last post as I should mind my own business after leaving the project, but still care for owners, want to see a new Predator pin, and Skit B as an indie boutique.

It's SO disappointing that you speak with Kev regularly and he still ignores your advice to post some type of communication to buyers (people who paid and believe in him) and least of all the forum he reached out to (check out original thread) to make his dream become reality.

Talking to other indie pin developers, I get the frustration with all the drama of pinside. But customers who fronted cash deserve better - period. I can't comprehend non-response to people who invested in you looking for an update. It screams immature - take my toys and go home I'm not talking to you anymore because I can only do one thing. Put the big boy pants on and communicate with your peeps like you did so well at the beginning of the project. Everyone should go back and read the very first thread announcing this project, pre-order, excitement and excellent engagement Kev had with all of us. To now, silence. I want the old Kev back or a closer version of him to that Kev.

I truly hope this experience didn't ruin Kev's love for the hobby and community. But then there's EOD so I guess not.

No more comments from me on this thread - I wish you all success. Only positive thoughts moving forward.

#451 4 years ago

Glad to see this.

#524 4 years ago

I applaud loudly Kev posting a message on pinside per our comments in here about the "silence is deafening". He even apologized on a public forum admitting to mistakes made and lessons learned. While admittedly very very late, I'm glad he did it. He listened. Aaron thank you - as I'm sure you gave him sound advice to post. We shouldn't condemn him on his post - he listened guys. We wanted to hear from him and he addressed the community. Is it everything everyone wanted to hear - no, of course not. But glad to see he's re-engaging and shared some reasons why - which we may not agree with - but non-owners don't have to.

What is key is if he follows through for owners and delivers on the bi-weekly email he promised months ago and now yet again. For owners sake, I sincerely hope he follows through on this. That will make it exciting for owners, re-engage them, and help address some questions they may have. For the rest of us non-owners (as I just recently exited) we get whatever crumbs he decides to throw to the community - hopefully major milestone announcements so we can applaud his contribution to pinball.

It's a damned if you do damned if you don't no win scenario. But, he did bring much of this on himself. Still, he's reaching back out from the abyss. Great news for owners, I sincerely hope it continues. If Kev was reading this - from a former pre-order owner - make the bi-weekly owner email a priority with a cup of coffee in the morning. You'll never make everyone happy but try to make some who invested in you happy. Jack even said for all the mess (self-imposed and not) with WoZ, the thing that helped keep his drive were the complimentary comments from kids, charity events, shows, or one off emails from owners who loved the game and shared their unique stories. You only have these if you engage with customers.

250 is a lot of games to build and those piles of parts looked daunting. Only last advice to Kev, a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. One day at a time. Start cranking. I want Hilton to have his game by Xmas. Cheers.

1 week later
#549 4 years ago

btw for you Predator owners who like to do mods. Was in Target store this past weekend and saw on a back end cap in the toy department retro predator action figures by Reaction. They are small enough to sprinkle on the play field in key locations. Have Predator with mask, without and cloaked. I'm not big on just adding action figures but for those who are - you're welcome for the tip.


2 months later
#1207 4 years ago
Quoted from underlord:

Aurich said:
I've seen the email, but I don't want to be a dick to the people who've sent it to me, so I'll summarize:
Things aren't great, there are nefarious forces out to stop the project, but Kevin is committed to everyone, and you should watch out for more info. But in the meantime, feel anxious.
I wish I was joking, but that about sums it up. What a weird email to send. It would have been better to just stay not communicating then send that message.

Not what I read Aurich.

I have no skin in this game, but I've read the same email and agree with Aurich's summary. Sorry, my objective interpretation as well. I read it 3 times and showed it to another pinsider I was hanging with last night and we both netted out at the same understanding - based on it's cryptic writing.

Here's hoping for the best for those of you still in the project and SkitB.

#1220 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That is not smear Aurich.
ANYONE that is involved in the attempt to take down a project like this will lose any sliver of cred.
IF SkitB never had a license then of course that is a huge issue and they will take ultimate blame for lying to 250 pre-orders (I have no reason to think that is the case besides the continuous emails I keep getting from the 'anonymous' group from TX) , but I will still hold true that it is pretty sad if PBN is involved in bringing that to light in anyway. From what the TX guys say, they have been working with PBN on this 'story' for over 6 months?

"IF" SkitB never had a license and people brought it to PBN attention (confirmed with facts) I would expect PBN to contact Kevin first to address and get his side before publishing. We have no reason to believe PBN wouldn't do that. It's not a tabloid, it's a resource for the hobby.

"IF" grandma had balls she'd be grandpa. For what thats worth.

#1226 4 years ago
#1252 4 years ago
Quoted from Mr68:

Some people tried to do this to Stern concerning Star Trek. There's some guys in Texas that have proof Leonard Nimoy was murdered over it.

And I thought someone came back in time and actually was successful in assassinating Ambassador Spock. Just when you think you know the ending.

#1275 4 years ago

Well, unfortunately Martin has been thrown in the middle of this. A post that either confirms he's aware of some activity with SkitB, more to come or denial altogether could put this to rest. The cat is either out of the bag or there is no cat.

#1299 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Is that how you really think reporting/journalism works, naming confidential sources? LOL
No one would be willing to wistleblow is they were outed. A journalist gets tips/leads from confidants and then does journalism to ferret out the truth or disprove the source. Come on man, you're better than that.

I agree with you.

Although I think what Hilton is trying to do is have others "fess up" if they are also receiving info from anonymous sources on the "major issues" Kevin eluded to in his email to owners. While Hilton is overly passionate in uncovering the "nameless" accusers and what they are alledging; he's also trying to say he's not a lone gunman in knowing something.

Again, is there a cat in the bag or just a bag? Drama seems so unnecessary. I feel like it's a radio teaser - keep listening through the commercials until the next segment. Ugh!

#1328 4 years ago

Focus here guys. Ok, so now we have at least 3 people in this thread who have admitted to getting a similar email from anonymous sources and not just whysnow. So removing whysnow temporarily from this argument, it would be cool to hear from Martin.

Martin is mentioned in the emails by name. If he confirms he's spoken to these sources (whoever they are - don't care) and can shed some light for all of us what the "big issue" is, we can squash some of this drama. If your name was used by someone as part of a slander campaign - just say so.

If my name was mentioned in an email going around (to it appears more than one person), I'd step up right away and say either "B freakin S!" or "I have been collaborating with some parties & Kevin and will provide more info shortly as I confirm facts." As many state, this is a small tight hobbyist group - not freakin Watergate.

#1343 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

If the rumors are erroneous, why give "anonymous emailers" any credibility at all?...
...And so who cares what they said to Whysnow or Martin or or anyone on pinside?...
...if those emails were groundless, they should and would be ignored.

Agree it's all on Kevin at this point and spotlight should be on him front and center for real answers.

Respectfully, we're not getting clear answers from Kevin (both emails vague) and there are allegations pointed directly at him by authors of this infamous email some on here have - but only after being pushed are admitting to.

Martin's name is in the email as collaborating with these unknown persons to break some story. Martin is someone we trust and engages in the pinside community. If groundless and not true, all Martin has to say is BS I'm not involved at all. End of discussion - it's groundless. If there is something there, just comment and say not ready to say anything yet.

Who gives a crap where the clarity comes from as long we get some. I prefer Martin because he has the most credibility of anyone aforementioned.

#1345 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

by authors of this infamous email some on here have - but only after being pushed are admitting to.

By the way, is it me or does anyone else wonder why no one is willing to post this email from an anonymous source?

If they're anonymous, you're not betraying their confidence since they had no balls to sign it themselves. Throw a log on the fire that's already started.

#1511 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

nd I don't get fooled easily...

This hobby always comes back to The Who (Pinball Wizard and now this)

2 weeks later
#3612 4 years ago

#3825 4 years ago

I will add one nugget for everyone in the community to think about - ethics - and future handling by the community (yes, all of us) regardless how this story ends (hopefully happy for all involved).

Anonymous emailers: Let's assume (which I pray is true) everyone wants Kevin to be successful in delivering a Predator pinball machine. With all the right intentions, community member(s) discovered and validated an issue so impactful it would jeopardize fellow hobbyists money and likely risk of Predator ever being built. The ethical dilemma for them, do they post that info on pinside likely starting a panic and run on the bank by owners requesting refunds - possibly viewed as the unintentional villans? Or do they secretly and selectively send anonymous emails hoping it leaks and never boomerangs back to them?

Suggestion (to be debated): I appreciate what you did but man up, and own the info. You added so much drama when the situation didn't need it. It clouded the validity of the information, casted more doubt and angst. Credibility is what was needed to ensure all owners knew the train may be coming off the tracks and let them decide to stay in or out.

Recipients of the anonymous email (full disclosure, I have copies too): The dilemma is do you post information on pinside that comes from an anonymous source, lists accusations supposedly validated, but written in a way that casts doubt (by the way different versions floating around). No way to validate with authors so left to go direct to the source - Kevin - which they did. If you post that email and it's complete BS - you've created a run on the bank based hearsay - and may cost Predator from ever being built.

Suggestion: Some of info in those emails appear to be turning out to be factual and some BS. Kevin has stated he is trying to remedy some issues with help - that help could have evaporated if the community made a run on the bank before the hail marry pass made it out of his hands. Timing. I do think transparency should have reigned on this one. Kevin ultimately withheld info. The anonymous emailers shifted the ethical dilemma onto other select insiders to break the story but without a credible source to confirm. Thus why people are waiting to validate accusations and try to help salvage behind the scenes. It should never have gotten to this point.

I believe when pinsiders money is involved and someone in the community knows "factually" that's at risk we should advise each other after first discussing it with the faulting party. There is a lot of grey area in this one, but then what is the definition of "community"??

#3884 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

It's a freaking shame the owners don't know yet.

quote from anonymous emailers to Aurich

Agreed. Martin, it's time. If Kevin hasn't resolved the issue by now it's not fair to prolong info of investigation further. This drama needs to come to a head.

#4011 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

WhysNow, Stern actually delivers when they take your money. JJP had proven themselves too. We've seen that neither Skit-B and Dutch pinball have proven themselves. I would ask that Aliens owners request proof.
And in the future, don't preorder from unproven people without proof.


If the rest of you take a second before attacking Whysnow, like playboywillis, theres good advice burried there. Wasn't there a debacle on TBL as well, partially related to license issues where Roger Sharpe was called in? Now whysnow is stretching on Stern and JJP to be dramatic, but good advice to confirm Dutch and Heighway have their ducks in order and anyone after them.

#4037 4 years ago
#4276 4 years ago
Quoted from Perspex:

It's really, really shitty that we all could've had a much easier out with PayPal if this super secret information was shared with us months ago.

Read my post a few pages back. Ethics question for the entire community.

#4663 4 years ago

Kevin just sent an email to owners stating he is still here, working through everything, and "....An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to......"

Sounds like he's gonna try and provide some remedy. I'm praying for some ounce of good news for everyone.

#4666 4 years ago

This has turned out terrible - and I hope a everyone gets their money back. Reposting from page 77.

While Kevin is clearly 100% to blame, how should the community have acted in their roles of "knowing" something. This isn't a pitchfork exercise, it's about setting expectations on accountability we hold each other to. What are the ethics of our community here? I don't have the answers but am concerned.

Quoted from badbilly27:

I will add one nugget for everyone in the community to think about - ethics - and future handling by the community (yes, all of us) regardless how this story ends (hopefully happy for all involved).
Anonymous emailers: Let's assume (which I pray is true) everyone wants Kevin to be successful in delivering a Predator pinball machine. With all the right intentions, community member(s) discovered and validated an issue so impactful it would jeopardize fellow hobbyists money and likely risk of Predator ever being built. The ethical dilemma for them, do they post that info on pinside likely starting a panic and run on the bank by owners requesting refunds - possibly viewed as the unintentional villans? Or do they secretly and selectively send anonymous emails hoping it leaks and never boomerangs back to them?
Suggestion (to be debated): I appreciate what you did but man up, and own the info. You added so much drama when the situation didn't need it. It clouded the validity of the information, casted more doubt and angst. Credibility is what was needed to ensure all owners knew the train may be coming off the tracks and let them decide to stay in or out.
Recipients of the anonymous email (full disclosure, I have copies too): The dilemma is do you post information on pinside that comes from an anonymous source, lists accusations supposedly validated, but written in a way that casts doubt (by the way different versions floating around). No way to validate with authors so left to go direct to the source - Kevin - which they did. If you post that email and it's complete BS - you've created a run on the bank based hearsay - and may cost Predator from ever being built.
Suggestion: Some of info in those emails appear to be turning out to be factual and some BS. Kevin has stated he is trying to remedy some issues with help - that help could have evaporated if the community made a run on the bank before the hail marry pass made it out of his hands. Timing. I do think transparency should have reigned on this one. Kevin ultimately withheld info. The anonymous emailers shifted the ethical dilemma onto other select insiders to break the story but without a credible source to confirm. Thus why people are waiting to validate accusations and try to help salvage behind the scenes. It should never have gotten to this point.
I believe when pinsiders money is involved and someone in the community knows "factually" that's at risk we should advise each other after first discussing it with the faulting party. There is a lot of grey area in this one, but then what is the definition of "community"??

#4889 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

they sent me an email yesterday saying they were happy they stopped this before the first batch went out becuase they wanted the first group to get the short end of the stick. They also were happy that people will learn a lesson.

Ok, now I have to jump in. This Mr X group were seriously f'ing with Hilton based on the emails he was getting and what they were saying to him. There was a strong gloating element in the content which impeded "credibility" of the authors. These "hero's" were acting like asshats to Hilton. Disagree with Hilton's passionate and blind support of Kevin - that's fine, I did to. But Mr X were trying to create a media event and helped FOX first - then brought it to the community. Think long and hard about it.

(And you TX people who keep thumbs downing Hilton when he hits enter on any post - let's keep tabs. Hmm Mr X affiliation? You guys are fixated on Hilton. It's as sick as his blind trust in Kevin. Sorry H.)

#4904 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

You and Whysnow and Neo can continue to miss the point, that's your prerogative; but the real story is simply:
Kevin lied to everyone from day 1.
He took money under false pretenses.
He owes that money back.
Any other issues are NOISE.

I respectfully disagree.

Priority 1 is finding some remedy for people who are out money. There is no higher priority.

Priority 2 is "Ethics" surrounding the pinball community going forward. Some grey areas for sure with "people who were in the know" before the general population and how it was handled. How do "we" want it handled in the future? Set expectations on accountability.

The "anonymous" email group is like Lebron James "The Decision", but at least he did it himself and did not task Martin or others to spill the beans for them. The noise needs to be addressed lowpeg as well.

#4926 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

btw, I think everyone involved and "in the know" should have spoken up sooner:
1 - the anonymous group
2 - Fast Pinball
3 - Pinball news
Holding the info to "give Kevin more time" or to "build the story into a blockbuster" served no one and potentially increased the harm.
Still, I place this FAR below the evil that Kevin did.

Ok, we are aligned again. I think everyone involved should have spoken up sooner - as soon as they learned of it. We are all grown men/women in the community and once we have info can make our own decisions on the rumor or fact right/wrong.

In hindsight, I call bs on "given Kevin more time" to figure something out. TBL shitstorm was as crazy, but they stepped up after the news came out and seem to have salvaged that situation.

Not having the info before others - I have a problem with.

#5166 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

toyotaboy said:
How do we know "mr x" wasn't someone from JJP or Stern? It's sort of akin to people trying to route pinballs without tax stickers (because they want to slip under the radar and make more profit), and the other person routing pinballs in the area pays his taxes and narcs on the other router because why should he have to pay while someone else doesn't.

yea, and it could be an alien from mars too...
neither gary nor jack gave two shits about kevin...
geez... COME ON PEOPLE!!! stop grasping at straws and focus...

I'll share a rumor I heard at a recent pinball bash. A Stern employee (not Gary) "allegedly" was involved at least in discussions with some people about false license issues before the shitstorm hit. Back at Chicago Expo. I don't know what to believe anymore but there you have another allegation heard.

BTW....talk to a pinball designer over a beer sometime. They will tell you about how they "share" ideas from each other then apply for patents. Yes, even from the small guys. It's business my friend - war is war.

#5188 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Don't be so modest.

Sorry, but this mad me laugh. I needed a laugh. Back to storming the castle.....

#5196 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I think you guys blaming the anonymous group just don't grasp how making a licensed product like a pinball machine works at all. You just can't start making a product THEN try to get the license. Even though Dutch made some mistakes with Lebowski - they HAD the license before going public. They almost got in trouble by showing the game before approvals were made....but they legitimately had the license and a working relationship with Universal. Kevin never had ANYTHING.

With all do respect, did you enjoy "The Decision" televised by Lebron James? At least he had the balls to do it himself. It's not that they found out - its how they chose to communicate it. Worked with FOX lawyers, sent notes to PBN, sent different notes to different pinsiders, heckled Whysnow in many of the notes gloating. Really? Really? Greg, come on.

Yes, Kevin is the only one to blame and should be primary focus until money is returned. But I'll say it again, the ethics in this pinball community need questioning. Serious questioning.

#5209 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I know who that employee is. And he's maintained that for ages, long before Kevin took down the website and everyone got suspicious. If he wanted to sabotage things he could have done it a long time ago.
So let's not try and turn this into corporate espionage or anything.

Aurich, my comment was in reply to another post that was saying how crazy to even think another pinball company would call FOX. I called BS to that statement.

I'm not into pointing a lynch mob at Stern at all. This wasn't Stern - but that specific employee - from what I heard "allegedly" pointed anonymous very specifically towards next steps. The story "allegedly" was talking about next steps to investigate.

All I care about is if anyone found out - they all should have told the community immediately. Alleged employee, vendor, best friend, etc..... Focus on Kevin but instead cloak and dagger delayed relay of info.

#5210 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

To add to it, I 've received two cease letters in my life. Both from Fox for hosting Simpsons and some other audio files for a .wav sound bite site I had years and years ago. I ignored them both. Then got another more threatening letter. Ignored again and never heard from them again.

Expect Rarehero thumbs down in 5....4...3...2...

#5221 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Beyond license-gate - let's be real. Was he ever really going to be able to manufacture 250 games!? Look how long Spooky is taking to make their games "garage style". This thing would have fallen apart, whistleblowers or not. He would have taken forever to make the games himself- Fox would have found out. If he had gone to a manufacturer for help - they would have found out the license wasn't there.
This would have fallen apart...no matter what. I just truly hope everyone gets their refund. At the end of the day, the game was a piece of shit anyway - made by a piece of shit. If you get your money back...win-win.

Totally agree.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Sorry. I find the whistleblowers to be absolutely ethical. They found out the truth. End of story. There are a lot of allegations in this story - and I respect that all the information was vetted and confirmed before it went public.

Sorry, we will continue to disagree on this one. But that's ok - its the right conversation to be having as a community going forward. The anonymous team that confirmed after discussion with the lawyer should have told everyone immediately. Why secret emails? PBN? I'll say it again, glad they found out - crappy how they communicated it.

#5225 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I give you a thumbs up! .....but where...

I feel the love man, thanks.

#5235 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

The "community" was told- they just chose not to listen. Some did and got out early. Some tried and it was too late.
Individuals challenged the license going back MONTHS.... but how do you PROVE something doesn't exist.... it's not so simple.... especially when people check their common sense at the door for their "grail theme."
However those individual voices were drowned out by some supposedly more "established" pinside voices (Ted, Aaaron, VirtuaPin) and some shrill ones (whysnow, etc).

No, there was educated guesses and "tea leaf" reading by many on here. No hard facts shared. (Full disclosure - after Expo I got out because of false promises Kevin made in an email that did not materialize at Expo). I was fortunate and it wasn't easy getting out)

The simple point I keep making is if anonymous spoke to the lawyer at Fox and confronted Kevin - no need to find an established pinside voice. It's all fact now not "tea leaf" reading. Why the cloak and dagger crap? Why BS emails to taunt Whysnow? Why work with Fox over the community? I'm very glad they investigated - how they communicated is BS.

I get the "drowning out" factor. Trust me, I got into it with one of the more "established" pinsiders spouse who was zealous and took it to PM to resolve. Lessons learned for everyone who is passionate. But when supported facts are presented (like talking to a lawyer), speak it from the highest mountain brother.

#5245 4 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

And what if they went public but Kevin got a license in the end and then fox and kevin went after anonymous for costing them sales? What if Kevin did a runner and Fox went after anonymous? I don't see it as a black and white issue as there was more factors happening at the time.

As the story goes, anonymous spoke to the lawyer - first hand - who confirmed, no license. Then asked anonymous to help Fox investigate and to collect more info. This, supposedly after a C&D was issued to Kevin. So how would making this public impact anything or hold them liable? It's fact.

#5262 4 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

Didn't it also say they were specifically told by the lawyer not to say anything? Sure they could have said, they didn't sign an NDA, but at the same time I don't think it's a simple thing to place blame on them when it was Kevin who chose to take money knowing full well he was being taken down by Fox at the same time.

But they could say something to PBN and others they sent emails to? The logic fails. The lawyer asked as a courtesy not to say anything. So a lawyer from Fox got a bigger courtesy than the community at large.

Kevin gets full blame on this one - agreed. But anonymous, while I'm very thankful they found out this info, communicated it poorly. Again, just like Lebron James and "The Decision".

#5293 4 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

If you're honestly disputing how they handled it, and how long they took to let you all know, why don't you ask yourself: "Why wasn't I involved in proving this outfit to be a fake?"

#5309 4 years ago

Anther email from Kevin just came out. Reaffirmed refunds are coming to all and a story will be coming through PBN with the "real story".

Edit: Someone posted the whole email above. Keeping fingers crossed for owners.

#5328 4 years ago

So, this kid may not be telling the truth either? What is this world coming to!!

#5461 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

I dunno...I keep thinking and "The Shadow" seems to be an appropriate title for the movie...

I like that one. But that's not what people were hoping for. This is the one the group from TX and Canada want made with big bright colors. But withhold the release of the movie at theaters or on DVD. Put it on Netflix and let other people online talk about "I heard there was a new movie about pinball that just came out....."


#5471 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

We attempted to ascertain whether or not the information in the emails was factual, but we were unable to do so. The emails were written by an anonymous source, so it's not as if we could call them up on the phone and ask them to corroborate the story. Naturally, we reached out to Kevin, but he would not respond to any of our inquiries.

Caveat and for the record, it still is 100% Kevin's fault.

Again, no problem with anonymous finding out there was no license. How they choose to communicate created so much of a mess, unnecssary drama and important - hindered action. For future learning, grow a pair and share info with your name attached. It will be more helpful.

#5500 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

however, i have a question for you... if you watch someone steal something, do you just go about your business like nothing happened, or do you report it to either the person it was stolen from or the police?

You report it to the police - and use your own name.

#5515 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

In any event, the discussion of this facet of the topic is over. Do not criticize the moderation, we received second hand information we could not confirm from a source that would not event identify themselves . . . as did countless others.
I will note that anonymous person/group will come out soon. If Fox pursues the civil case there will be depositions taken of that group (Fox had their number and interviewed them . . . Fox knows who they are). My guess is Kevin knows who they are as well since they received deposit returns . . . soon enough the public record will reveal what everyone (including me) wants to know . . . or there really is no infringement suit coming down the road and an exaggeration of the anonymous group will be confirmed.

I will be the broken record,

Quoted from badbilly27:

Caveat and for the record, it still is 100% Kevin's fault.
Again, no problem with anonymous finding out there was no license. How they choose to communicate created so much of a mess, unnecssary drama and important - hindered action. For future learning, grow a pair and share info with your name attached. It will be more helpful.

Down vote all you want (hit a nerve?). Future learning, please don't hide behind your keyboard. Your well intentions caused issues.

#5530 4 years ago
Quoted from GGBGROUP:

The idea of this site having a moderator's rule about notifying the board when they receive an anonymous tip of some sort will simply never work.

How about no more anonymous emails, community?? The ethical hot potato should have never gone to anyone but the community at large. You did a good thing, but you hindered the communications by the choices you guys made.

#5574 4 years ago
Quoted from GGBGROUP:

Interesting... and if he had miraculously gotten the deal done for Kevin, would the buyers still go forward with the purchase? Essentially excusing Kevin's deceipt and writing it off as a 'business mistake'? I do think some of this thread is BS when people spout off about the ethical implications.

Slightly different scenario with TBL as they had a license just allegedly issues following it. They seem to have recovered, remedied, and yes some people still chose to go forward with the purchase.

If Kevin resolved license and his other issue of manufacturing, I bet some (not all) would have stayed in still. Not saying right, but not BS.

#5610 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

I can guarantee you that had we received an email from an individual that said:
"Hello, I am __. Here are my credentials, you know me on Pinside as ___, feel free to check my posts. I have contacted ___ at Fox and talked with them regarding the Predator license. There is no license, and they can confirm that. Their phone # is _____, their email is ______, and my contact information is ____. Please feel free to reach out to myself or that person as proof, and distribute the information as needed to help the Predator pre-owners and/or Kevin get out of this situation as quickly and easily as possible."
... that we all would have immediately validated the information, passed it along, and saved ourselves and EVERYONE time, worry, pain, and money.

Excellent summary and well detailed post! Amen sister on this last part too.

#5828 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Ain't hindsight grand...

#5830 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Totally agree, they are spiking the football now. While I take little issue with what they did (I think they saved the situation from getting much worse personally) they should leave the victory lapping on the playfield.

I couldn't agree more.

I thought the reason you guys are "anonymous" is to not to focus on "us" but Kevin (per a quote from your website - see below). Yet, you keep drawing pinsiders to YOUR website. LMAO. Just announce who you guys are already and take your curtain call. Better yet, wait until April 1st for the big reveal. Then the community can guess if you guys were really anonymous or is it an April Fools joke. My request is to create a video though. I'm tired of reading.

Now let us get back to helping our friends get refunds. You know, the ones you and Martin (whom I respect but made poor decisions on this one) decided to leave hanging for 3 months before the news story could be released. While the clock ticked on cc and paypal refund limits. I *sincerely* do applaud the good deed, I *deplore* your choice in communications.

PS - Greg I'm picking up a bar of soap, go ahead and give me that thumbs down. I'm in the ready position for you and your group.

Quote from wordpress site:

"For now, anyway. With the inevitable drama that comes with the collapse of a once-adored pinball project, the focus on what matters could not be clouded or jeopardized by those who would most certainly make it all about us. This can never be a battle over motivations or biases. So we can’t allow it to become one. We’re not going to be “the guys who killed Predator” for some. Because we aren’t. Kevin Kulek killed Predator. By chopping off the ability to focus on “us” at this time, it allows the actual issue – the story we unearthed – to shine all on its own.

#5866 4 years ago
Quoted from Curtis_Playfield:

"We sat on this shit for weeks. It hurt. It really did."

correction according to the wordpress website 3+ months. A good deed that was communicated poorly.

" Kevin’s dancing is what delayed Martin from publishing for 3+ months. Kevin ALWAYS kept things appearing hopeful / fixable / active. Martin didn’t want to sink the ship, and tried his best to coach Kevin toward solutions. That burned up a lot of time. We feel bad for poor Martin, who is professionally obligated to provide an equal platform for Kevin to speak (in a spirit of fairness of the press). We encourage Martin to stay strong with the “courtroom” type verifications that he had in place for us. We had to get Martin to the level of actual phone conversations with Fox in order to verify our claims. We expect the same will be required of Kevin. "

#5868 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I can deal with the fact that I may appear as an ass

No argument.

But I do respect that you always sign your posts with your real name. Sometimes I wish you didn't.

#5962 4 years ago

Is this how he's securing the funds to cover those already spent? (I kid only to add a splash of humor)

#5980 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

And I accumulate far better perks than if I used a debit card

Out of curiosity, which credit card do you have? Pay annual fees?

I have a Citibank no annual fee cash back card. I keep hearing of better cards out there but after some small investigation not convinced.

#6011 4 years ago
Quoted from GrueLurks:

Guess I can have a blowout sale on my Predator art prints now....

And the UV light never worked! (Nice pics!)

#6060 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Well you didn't ask the guy directly before the story came out. I did and was told NOTHING!!! I was even still within the 180 day time period for paypal chargeback.

I'm not waiting on Pinball News either. Sorry, what people are glossing over is having this info for over 3 months (and AG 4 months) and not sharing is just BS. Stop defending it. Just like Kevin there is no defense.

Russ is one example of someone who could have gotten their money back if told sooner. 3 months to confirm a story when AG told you specifically who they talked to? Helping Kevin remedy the situation behind the scenes to salvage the project - for 3 months!! When did the world forget deadlines??

The biggest BS is when people emailed Martin directly and he said he's not in a position to advise. Really? While I know Martin cares about the hobby, and I do like him, I think he needs some competition too.

The only person we need to hear from now is Kevin. Not PBN, not AG - Kevin. Like AG said, focus should be on Kevin - we've heard enough from PBN and AG and this drawn out PR affair. My advice to Kevin, work with Robin to create a post on Pinside. This is OUR preferred method of communication - not PBN and not AG wordpress site. Here where it all started.

#6153 4 years ago

This is an interesting read from another hobby - model kits. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1332614/posts

It's dated but they talk about how licensing fees are killing their hobby. Most interesting is further down the read someone posts the Boeing license agreement including costs, clauses, the whole nine yards. Interesting to acquaint yourself with all involved.

To those running Expo I would suggest a presentation by Roger Sharpe on industry licensing. What % of a games costs typically goes toward licensing fees? Typical clauses to expect in game licensing deals? Past successes/failures or just weird things license holders and celebrities required. At a minimum, it would be free advertising for Roger's business for "would be" pinball companies thinking they can do this alone. For hobbyists, a better appreciation for game prices, licensing impacting game code updates or release dates, and just making us smarter and better educated buyers. (Yes, even if we avoid preorders from now on)

#6379 4 years ago
Quoted from indypinhead:

How much money did Kevin pay back alley creations for the parts they'd made for the machine?
I wonder how bad BAC is getting screwed in this fiasco as well.

My guess is BAC got paid already - before the shitstorm. And I wouldn't be mad at him. Matt doesn't have that much capital sitting around to invest in resources to build all those skull kits.

#6399 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Your "Well *I* know, but I cant see why YOU should know" kind of attitude is precisely whats made this thing worse already....

Check that attitude at the door my friend. Not cool.

PinChili was trying to keep everyone civil and not divulge Kevin's personal home address. As the conversation developed, if the address is needed for filing with the AG I'm sure PinChili would support. But everyone is trying to make sure no vigilante crap occurs.

#6416 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Your "Well *I* know, but I cant see why YOU should know" kind of attitude is precisely whats made this thing worse already....

This statement was totally unnecessary. You made your point on why the info may be necessary.

Quoted from badbilly27:

As the conversation developed, if the address is needed for filing with the AG I'm sure PinChili would support. But everyone is trying to make sure no vigilante crap occurs.

And so did I. Done.

#6445 4 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

If you must insist on going to see Kevin face to face, take a police officer with you. Might even want to have that arrest warrant delivered at that time. In fact, you better check in with the police before going to the trouble to go up there. If you don't have them with you, you will be trespassing.
Be smart.

Great advice! And on that last part "be smart" - one little word of advice. Anyone posting on a public message board an insinuation of bodily harm or theft of Kevin's own items - and if something does actually happen - you will be in a heap of trouble even if you had nothing to do with it. Prosecutors will have written evidence that you publicly supported physical harm to Kevin or theft of goods, and could be an accomplice to a crime. This isn't wuss-ification this is fact and just plain stupid.

For those of you whose money was taken, you have a right to be pissed. Rally together to take next steps in the process to getting your money back.

People who do not have skin in the game (lowepg)

Quoted from lowepg:

If someone STOLE money from me

stop adding noise that will not result in a refund. You've said some smart things in this thread and then....well. Right now a refund is all that matters.

#6513 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

At this point, who the hell cares what is in Martin's article? What is he going to do, give Kevin's side of the story, as told by Kevin? Kevin is a pathological liar, always has, and always will be.

Agreed. Kevin should be posting directly on pinside, where all this started. No offense, but will it take Martin another 3 months to verify all the statements Kevin provides for the story??

Martin and AG played their roles already. Spotlight should be just on Kevin - direct post to his pre-order owners, you know the people waiting for refunds.

#6519 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Why bother?
ONE refund check trumps a thousand WORDS from Kevin.
He's just lied and lied.
He's duped other "seemingly" intelligent people to lie for him as well.
What possible value would you put in anything he SAYS?

My quote is being taken out of context by you and RobT.

I replied to another post asking when the new Martin article would be out on SkitB response. In which I agreed who cares, but if Kevin has anything to say it should be about refunds to people waiting for them communicated direct - not through sources.

#6576 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Again, bottom line, there is a LOT to this story that PBN could and should be reporting on. I can't imagine a legitimate news organization reporting on something like the Bernie Madoff scandal one day and the next day saying "well, he's got a lawyer now so there is no more to the story".

Remember, Martin works on a 3 month timeline.

One minute people support Martin and his timeline for breaking the story, because he was acting like a legitimate reporter who needed to validate all facts. Then, as you point out, if he's a legitimate reporter why no follow-up story on other angles, progress on refunds, etc??

I prefer Martin, and AG for that matter, stay out of it right now. I'd rather focus be put on Kevin and why isn't he or lawyer answering questions specifically on refunds & timing.

As others have pointed out, Martin is a hobbyist who is doing us all a favor "reporting" on news related to our hobby. He's not a paid reporter. He should have never involved himself with this but he meant well. Let him continue to report on Stern and other vendor announcements and let scams be reported by the pros - streamline media. In the interim, Kevin and his lawyers should communicate refund status - otherwise it will be up to the courts to get an answer from them.

#6594 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

According to his wife, "he is in the process of dealing with all of this like PayPal and his layers have adviced as well as getting the right info out there instead of the online slander you heard."
So, there's that I guess...

Winner winner steak dinner

#6604 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

No. No, I'm not "Kaneda" and I do not even know who that is. I made a comment that I really thought PBN should have had an update article by now but apparently everyone here disagrees. I get it. I already apologized once. I don't understand why anyone thinks someone would create a new account for making what I thought was an innocent post. I can't believe the backlash this has created.

People are sensitive when someone becomes so outspoken on a controversial topic being so new to forum. Especially with the vail of secrecy surrounding AG - it raises an eyebrow to many.

I think your questioning PBN is fair. However, everyone really wants to focus on refunds right now and Kevin/his lawyers subsequent action.

#6611 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Yeah, I hear ya, but I'm just confused how my first post today could be construed as "so outspoken on a controversial topic"?

Let me clarify "so outspoken..". It's a combination of all your posts in this thread, not a specific one that have people reacting now.

Don't sweat it. You apologized. You'll always have a few thumbs downers no matter what you post in this topic. If you post against Kevin your safe. If you even question PBN or AG you'll get some type of thumbs down. Just keeps tabs on the sources of the thumbs downers. The big thing now though - everyone wants to focus on refunds so everyone can get their money back. Rightfully so, makes some edgy when complaints on others show up in here.

1 week later
#7061 4 years ago

We needed something to refer to SkitB in the future.

#7062 4 years ago

Also comes in female version. Picture just gets swapped out.

#7063 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Ben/Spooky- I knew that you were printing the playfields and plastics, but wasn't aware that you were working extensively on the UV issues. I know someone that spent months and hundreds of their own dollars trying to find the right bulb set-up to make the UV work... with no results, no thanks, and no reimbursement from Kevin. I want you to know that I appreciate the hard work that obviously went into that. Also, I think "SOLAR FRICKIN' ROADWAYS" sometimes when driving over the new bumpy-tiled (non-solar) pedestrian crossings in town.

Inside joke I know you will get by my just posting this quote. All in fun with a smile on my face.

#7209 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

I will never understand people who are pissed that the AG blew this up by investigating Kevin's claims (I totally understand being pissed about HOW they did it, as they have been pretty insufferable).

How they did it. Bravo!

Me thinks the contingency from TX, CA and Canada due protest too much. Things that make you go hmmm......

#7212 4 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

It's not their job, but for the "common good" seems fitting. I find it sad that people continually defer to a 'me' vs 'us', as opposed to watching out for others, whether it be a community or a small pinball group. But since we're making large generalizations, it's pretty much like watching your neighbors car getting broken into, but you don't call the cops, because "it was never your job to watch out for them, they should have been up all night, every night, keepin an eye on his shieet... Fug'em"
The common good is much more important than the me.

Your whole post reply Very well written.

#7213 4 years ago
Quoted from Chambahz:

What's Canada got to do with anything that happened?
In other words: please post ANY evidence you may have, or may have heard, that would imply any of the AG is from Canada.

Hit a nerve? My post wasn't directed at you.

Just like AG, I'll send my info to Martin to break the story 4 months from now.

#7240 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

If the common good is so important to you, next time something like this comes around, appoint yourself the savior of all who need saving and do the research for the benefit of the flock.

Hmmm...CA. Makes you want to go hmmm

You keep missing his pt and getting your thumbs up from the same people. LOL. Most are not pissed at AG for finding out. It's how they communicated. But then again, you know that and are deflecting.

#7244 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

I already addressed the timing and methods they used in several previous posts, and gave plausible explanations for each. Those were dismissed. Shrug.

And people addressed your timing comments back which you fail to acknowledge from what I've read.

Simply, all AG had to do was come on to pinside and simply state facts "We spoke to Fox today. The lawyer whose name is X told us Y. Sharing so you have same info we do. Draw your own conclusions but we are dropping out of the project." Where is there liable in that factual statement? Now AG could have gone on and said "Fox asked us to work with them and we politely declined preferring to stay out of what's next to come." But they didn't do that. I'm sure they have their reasons.

Yes, I know, grown men were afraid of being hammered on pinside so went AG then to PBN. Yadda....yadda...yadda. And groundhog day on the thread again.

Two camps that agree to disagree on "how" things were communicated. Just interesting those defending AG disclosure methods, taunting a fellow pinsider, piling on after Kevin's last note. Just really wants to make you go hmmm....

And if anyone from AG wants to PM me with an alias to answer direct Q&As, you know where I am. I'm still baffled at the PR approach.

Back to friends refunds.

#7252 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You are the perfect example of why the AG has decided that they will *never* reveal themselves, after initially saying that they would with time.
Why the hell should they answer a single question from you? You've done nothing but shoot the messenger ever since this whole thing went down.
I still wonder if you told the person who bought your Predator spot that you had serious doubts/concerns about the whole project before selling to them?
I'm sure you did, given your great "concern for the community" and everything.

I had my watch set to how fast it would take you to reply to my post - surprise!

First, in fact I did have a lengthy conversation with the person who bought my spot and specifically why I was pulling out. It didn't matter to him. I also contacted him when rumors of anonymous emails were going around - still didn't bother him. He said he was a big boy and knew what he was getting into. I did my part on the "concern of the community" and based on PMs between you and I you know that. Bad form my friend, bad form.

Lastly, I have not shot the messenger. I have publicly stated, as posted in this thread and in PMs to you, I applaud AG finding out about the non-license. It's "how" they communicated, delays, confusion, and PR stunt they pulled. Always seem to deflect around the two issues. "How" Rob, "How".

Again, your reply(s) really make me go hmmm. Few friends part of AG?

#7253 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

And I addressed that by saying, "If it's so easy, simple, risk-free, straightforward, and "for the community" then I can expect you to investigate these matters as well and present your findings."

Direct answer: Simple. I'm not the one that picked up the phone and called Fox. I felt something was wrong, voiced it (emphasize - voiced it) in the Predator thread and was fortunate to sell my spot months before any of this. I didn't need to take the extra step to call Fox, my gut said get out. Someone else did - good for them. Found out no license. (enter music) Theatrics ensues with "The decision" like choreography. Just as stated before, you witness a crime you report it. Period. No defense on this one my friend - black and white. As soon as they picked up the phone they became accountable.

Quoted from jonnyo:

Your response is to run back to, "It would have been so easy for them to say something!!", which, of course, is also a non-response.

Direct answer: Non-response? The response is - tell the community! I even wrote how they could have. But you're right, grown men are afraid of being honest??? Doh

Quoted from jonnyo:

Just like this whole Predator project, what you say and what you do don't add up. You say it would have been so easy and for the greater good to fling out the info, but when asked to take on such an "easy" task yourself, you dodge the question.

Direct answer: I did not make the phone call to Fox. They did. They first hand heard no license. Sling it out there. It's called accountability. Again, great they found out. It's "how" they communicated and played the drama out. Just juvenile. 1+1=2 It adds up.

Now direct question for you: Are you in AG and/or do you you know who is? Again, makes you wanna go hmmm....

#7260 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Lamest cop-out ever. So you didn't lift a finger in the first place so it's not your problem, but now you see fit to judge others who did. You smelled fire, sold out of your spot to save yourself, and then whistled past the graveyard all the way home with a blindfold on.
Got it. You sound like a great guy.

Reading comprehension. I posted my concerns (publicly under my own name), shared them with buyer, and yes, pulled out. I did not call Fox. AG did. Accountability.

Quoted from badbilly27:

Now direct question for you: Are you in AG and/or do you you know who is? Again, makes you wanna go hmmm....

I didn't see your answer. I answered every question you posed me - directly. Deflecting again?

#7261 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

You didn't voice any real concerns publicly in the Predator thread until *after* you sold your spot.
You need to be careful when you say things. Some of us actually pay attention.
This is your post from 4 months ago, showing how you needed the communities help to get a refund on your Predator since Kevin wasn't responding:

Wrong. Dig deeper Rob to slam anyone looking into AG. Check all my posts on the UV light issue. Blondetall will also confirm it got heated on the forum between me and her husband over said issue, that we decided to take the discussion into PM to sort out together. I vocalized my concern - that was the biggie to me. The website disappearing also was a concern. But the license, I never questioned. Neither did many. Check that - besides AG. Again, thank you.

Quoted from RobT:

You believed in SkitB and you believed that Predator would be a success. Good group of guys!
This was a lucky situation for someone else, as they could swoop in and "move in to your coveted spot"!

Again, class act Rob. We've had the discussion in PM but defend AG.

All in context of the time of that post and what was known to the community which was - nothing. Why edit out the date? I met Kevin and he was nice - like many would attest to prior to all this blowing up. The time of my post, the license issue did not hit a head. I had no clue of a license issue like many. Just odd website was down - in hindsight we should have all picked up more on it. At the time I bailed, I thought Kevin was still cool but things didn't feel right to me based on the UV lighting and lackluster showing at Expo. Kevin also suggested some "pre-order special activities" at Expo for owners and did not follow through, which bummed me out. At that point in time, still a nice guy to me and many - I just chose to leave the project because UV bummer and failed promise.

Per my post a few up the line (nice deflection Rob), the person who took my spot we spoke at length and he was eyes wide open in.

Your research reminds me of someone...on the tip of my tongue....it will come to me. Makes you want to go hmmm

Oh, hey Rob. Do a favor for the group. Answer the question Johnny Oh keeps deflecting away. Are you or anyone you know part of AG?

#7262 4 years ago


For those playing at home, pay close attention to those who are typing away on their computer to support AG "how" they communicated. It's like a where's Waldo. If you look hard enough you just might find....

#7264 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

More deflection from you. You are good at it.
So, did you offer to do a chargeback on your CC so the person who bought your Predator spot could get their money back? Or are they shit out of luck because they paid you cash for your spot?
You already know that I have nothing to do with the AG, that I don't know a single person involved with the AG, and therefore you once again saying that I do is just further proof of your deflection/attempt to discredit me for calling you out on your hypocrisy.

I'm not sure what deflection on my part you are referring to. I'm the only one answering direct.

My spot was sold - it's over. I was out. We talked at length, I cautioned, he said no worries I'm a big boy willing to take the risk. Great guy to boot and a local. No I won't refund the money, as it's Kevin's to refund. But you keep trying to chip away and attack me and my name. Oh wait, that's because I post and send PMs under my name.

So let me get this straight. The Predator thread was too fan and pro-support for people to voice opinions against the project. AG, grown men, were afraid of being attacked so did the theatrics. Now with all revealed, everyone speaks up about how we should question things in the future. Anyone who questions AG on "how" poorly they choose to communicate is attacked.

Hypocrisy? Me thinks he does protest too much Mr. President.

#7265 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Oh, hey Rob. Do a favor for the group. Answer the question Johnny Oh keeps deflecting away. Are you or anyone you know part of AG?

Rarehero - I love your thumbs downs as they are so consistent. I pose the same question to you. Come on in the water is warm. (Humming California dreaming)

Edit: I'm going to moderate myself. This thread should be focused on refunds. There will be time to continue to debate how the community should interact with each other and not be an AG. Someone wants to chat with me, my PM is open.

But, I'd still respect an answer to my direct questions previously posted. Johnny Oh and Rarehero??

#7267 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

It's like you are on a witch hunt. Completely pathetic.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

#7271 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

That doesn't even make sense. I'm not the one who is intent on discovering who is in the AG. That would be you.

Your disdain for anyone questioning AG "how" they communicated is pathetic.

Let me suggest if you would like to continue this, bring it to my PM - again. I think we agree to disagree on AG "how" they communicated.

My discussion was with Johnny Oh not you until you jumped in. Again, PM if you want to try again.

#7275 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

So, you sell your Predator spot to someone who pays you cash for it, and you won't help him get a refund by contacting your CC company to do a chargeback which, if successful, would allow you to get him his money back?
Yet...the AG are a bunch of douchebags because they didn't speak up sooner to help the community?

Cash transactions on both fronts. Game and spot were transferred to new buyer officially (well, as official as it was at the time) with Kevin's email approval to both of us. Keep slinging away Rob, the truth will set you and your friends free. Wait for it: lime lime, lowepg, jiffy, rarehero and well I'll let all the other readers see who thumbs up your continued attempt to attack and deflect.

Again, I invite you to PM as you're going off the deep end. It's the "how" it was communicated Rob not that they did it that is always been in question. PM is your friend.

#7282 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

See? Now THAT was a deflection.

Yup. Never answered the question. Telling isn't it.

#7283 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

I'm not questioning his truthiness, I am criticizing his moral posturing. He didn't do what the AG did, and he never will. He just sees fit to criticize.

I applauded what they found out and criticize how you guys communicated it.

#7286 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

1. wheres the money.
2. how much of it is actually left. and if there is, most certainly not in his name ?
3. is he going for bankruptcy
4. would be nice to at least get some sort of statement via his legal rep. surely u can do that.

And back to the refunds and what I think we can all agree on. Will the representatives from TX & CA concur?

#7293 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm thumbs downing you because you've become Joseph McCarthy. You're being disgusting, creepy, and slandering. That is why I'm thumbs downing you. Are you so shocked that someone might think you're being a maniac? Is that so unthinkable? Are you that self unware? Anyone who thinks whistleblower witch-hunters are dicks must be AG?

I am very self aware. I hope you are.

I have, as many others, pointed out AG found out really important info that impacted pre-order and the pinball community. Sincere, thumbs up. We are gravely disappointed at the antics and how the info was communicated and the ensuing delay that cost friends opportunities for refund through CC. Sjsilver post just one page back does a good job summarizing a similar frustration as others have earlier in this thread. Every time this perspective is brought up, the OP is attacked by a contingent of CA & TX pinsiders. So I ask a simple question to those who frequently attack and thumbs down (3 people total) - are you part of AG? Because you three sure are acting defensive.

Witchunt? McCarthy? Save the dramatics for a Family Guy episode. I asked a question, not of the entire group but of those who have been the most outspoken in posting and consistent thumbs down against anyone who critiques the "how" AG communicated. Three outspoken people. Interesting only one chose to answer direct (RobT). You just start name calling and more attacking. It was a simple question that really got under your skin for some reason. My answer would be simply - "No I am not nor do I know anyone. I just support AG and how they communicated." It's a question Greg and you turn it into something personal.

What do I hope to accomplish? Transparency, something Kevin took away when he lied about the license. We have a community trying to get their money back and heal. There is angst because of the "how" it was communicated. A community dialogue would heal the rift. If longtime pinsiders/collectors part of AG, their reputation will support the community healing. While everything stays secret, frustration grows because of dialogue missing. Two-way dialogue.

#7294 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

See, because the AG has refused to show themselves, and have stated that they would deny it forever, and because Whysnow repeatedly called it the Texas group (I assume he's the main source of that, when he was calling out Jared, and I don't recall any other primary source for that claim), ANYONE from Texas who has a thought on this is under suspicion, even if they deny it. Another reason I wish they would just stand by their convictions that they did the right thing and own it. The sooner the entire story gets cleared up, the better for moving on.
Seriously, people are going to be pissed that they handed it off to PBN and they sat on it for months, and people are going to be pissed about how they handled it, and some people are going to be pissed that they did anything at all. If they are such warriors for truth, they should honestly assess how they handled it, own the shit they have conviction of being right on, and apologize for anything they might, in retrospect, feel shame about. Unlike Kevin, no one is going to sue them, no one is going to harm them, they aren't in legal trouble, they will just have some people on the internet angry at them. Part of being an adult is realizing you can't make everyone happy, and when you realize you actually wronged someone, all you can do is sincerely apologize and let THEM decide if and when to forgive you.
Bottom line, more secrecy isn't helping the community.
-Stephen Silver (fake internet names are dumb.)
PS. My meaningless vote: I'm fine with them handing off their big piece of info to PBN for respectability and due diligence, as the pre-PBN article environment was very non-receptive to license claims, especially with Keven letting others vouch for it on their reputations. It's unfortunate that said due diligence took so long, partly because of misguided hope that the project could be saved, that chargeback windows closed. But I'll give Martin the benefit of the doubt for not knowing what the average chargeback window was and thinking that no amount of rushing to print would have helped people with any refund options. They owe Pinside an apology for trying to have it both ways: giving responsibility to PBN, but also smugly taunting people, "preparing" an inner circle, and pompously making themselves the center of the story at every turn. If they wanted their actions to be vindicated so badly, they should have owned it and immediately brought all their evidence forward. If they cared about it being done right because they weren't 100% sure they had the whole story, then they should have handed it off to the adults and not done the whole cloak and dagger, secret inner circle warnings bullshit to increase the theater around the final reveal. It didn't help anyone.

Solid points and great summary of feelings floating around.

#7477 4 years ago
Quoted from Sjsilver:

Seriously, you've been working on this story for months, you could have confronted him with numerous quotes that were provable lies and get him on record owning to the exact moment when he switched from "Naive idealist" to "Liar committing fraud".

I understand the pt your making. It would have been great to ask questions like

What is the process issuing refunds?
Who's first, second third?
What would you tell your preorder customers who are reading this infuriated with the lack of responses from you, when will they get their refund? Paypal versus paid by check?
So you collected $1M. What is the total amount you have left to refund?

#7481 4 years ago
Quoted from asay:

If he asked any hard questions, Kevin would have refused the interview and blamed Pinball News for the project failing.

Martin asked some hard questions. But yeah, doubt he would have answered some I listed.

#7670 4 years ago

This cartoon reminds me of how Kevin came across in the article.


1 year later
#12904 2 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

Should not the lawyer working for the Pinsiders that retained him be looking into this angle? A Fox rep should be deposed to determine what information was brought to them, and who made that contact. Wouldn't that be a pip of info...
That could easily put those slippery eels, that received refunds, into the group of insiders. If that happens, they would be liable to pay back the bankruptcy trust due to the 1 year vs 90 day classification.

I just got caught up reading this thread I promised myself to stay away from.

You (and Vid) are making way too much sense. Please stop.

#12912 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Kevin did not process a single refund after the news broke

This is true.

Just one clarification, Kevin (assume it was him) did try to issue a refund through paypal to the first X number of buyers after the shit really hit the fan. The next day the transaction was reversed, apparently after he got council.

1 week later
#13129 2 years ago

I'm not one of those people that revels in watching reality tv and seeing bad things happen to people - who admittedly deserve it. Families being ripped apart.

I must admit though, I'm very glad justice is being served. It's been painful for community and it's time. Thumbs up to the lawyer and those pinsiders who've been diligent in helping.

Any updates on JPOP?

#13161 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

Wow, this guy is f'ed. If he supplies the records, he's basically incriminating himself for perjury and hiding assets. If he doesn't, it's off to the pokey anyway.

What I don't get is his lawyer. Kevin did try to refund money through paypal to some of the early buyers - then reversed it a day later at the direction of his lawyer (or so what the community assumed). Did his lawyer just bail?

#13217 2 years ago
Quoted from sevenrites:

And where are the other machines hiding at? Who else was on the predator team that had access to the build, software and etc - surely they didn't work for free either. I'm thinking they all got a slice of the pie as well.

I also don't get this one either. How did his partner, who also propositioned the community on this offering, walk away scott free form this. If you were involved in alleged scandal from the beginning isn't there accountability? Accomplice to fraud?

#13232 2 years ago
Quoted from Methos:

I think it is safe to assume he had no intention of building these games, nor of properly incorporating. It would be interesting to hear what his true intentions really were and what he thought he was going to do from the onset.

I may be in the minority but I actually think at the onset, he had every intention of building and delivering these games. If you re-read some of the interviews in the early days, he was thinking it was like a garage/basement build out similar to how he built a few games for himself (I think Sonic maybe). A ton of stupidity (thinking he could fly under radar of license) and underestimating extent of build out. Once he got the skulls from Back Alley and started to line up cabinets - I think that's when the stupid hammer hit him over the head again with a dose of reality and he was like - Oh Shit!!

I still think he expected to build one game at a time under the radar (of the license) but when shit hit the fan and he was exposed on the license publicly - he was overwhelmed. I used to know many in the comic model/statue industry who did same thing on kits. Fly low, keep kits around 150 in quantity, and hope never tagged. Those were $150 kits though.

Due to the community growing weary of updates and deliverables, in his head he finally realized, this is bigger than I thought - doh! (That's why in PinballNews interview he stated "I'm a pinball designer not a pinball manufacturer". Doh!!) This is when I think he started collecting more money and doing stupid things trying to dig himself out - like a mouse trapped in the corner. Lies, upon lies now started building. I honestly think Aaron bailed in 2014 because Aaron realized sooner than Kevin, flying under the license radar is unlikely based on attention we're getting and we need help building these - too big a project on our own. Kevin saw $$$ and thought he could build at his own pace. Minus the license, sounds familiar to JPop.

After all hell came down he tried to refund some money - then stopped and reversed the refunds apparently at direction of lawyer. As stupidity was his shadow throughout this project, as time has gone on - big bank account - buy gifts for family and then declare personal BK. Thinking it would go away. In summary, I think his original intentions was pinball and then stupidity, panic and in the end stupid greed took over.

If it was full blown deception, you wouldn't have 4 games somewhere in collectors hands. Deception occurred after. But deception nonetheless.

#13234 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I think Kevin really thought this would be file for bankruptcy.. and just keep hiding under a rock and it would all blow over and he could hide from the civil suits.

I think you hit the nail on the head. And I think JPoP is doing the same.

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