A majority of vendors/suppliers operate on terms like net 30. You do not need the money until 30 days after parts are delivered. In fact, there is a large amount that due net 60 days...some even 90 days. As the purchaser you are also in a position to negotiate/demand different terms based on the order size and the trust in your business to survive. Being a start up I guess you would not have a major influence unless you were soliciting orders from other "New" type (start-up) vendors/suppliers...they are out there.

I was there and remember that. It was straight ahead when you walked in (Predator) and Nellie was to the right when you walked in. That was a great show and had lots of games. Even two rooms on first floor with games due to the overflow. The last two shows have been less machines and only upstairs.

Huh? I thought games shipped last Dec? I remember someone even made a bet about it?

What boggles my mind is Game #2. On one hand, like Jared says, Kevin may have been in deep and still is. I get that. But we have all been there in our life. If you are in deep when you do not take on more. On the other hand maybe he thought he could handle it? This part really blows my mind when I ponder it. If everything was under control and customers happy (a high% I mean, you can never please everyone) then sure, you take on a new project so as to eliminate gaps in your business (peaks and valleys are costly and difficult for start ups). If things are not under control then the last thing you do is take on a new project and jeopardize the business as an entity with unacceptable risk!

Which is it here? I have no idea....what is implied is maybe he was on overload and did not own up to it and thought he could "Do it all". If true, a good Program or Project Manager could have prevented much of this and kept the customer base at ease. A Project Manager drives timelines, coordinates suppliers and associated cost, has good communication with the customer(s), maintains tight budget control while the "Exec's" are off doing what they need to do relative to their vision of the company.

What was missing in my opinion? Yes, a Project Manager from day! Kevin (being a techno type guy it seems) would be able to do what he needed to do while a home base Project Manager kept things in order.
My 2 cents

Actually, without a machine present and verifiable, you are assuming Skit is building machines. The correct statement, with no assumptions, is" The answer with fewest assumptions is that SkitB is not building machines".

I just wanted to say I really enjoy your posts. They are very specific with valid and mature points of view. During this entire thread, when I see your name on a post I especially look forward to reading it Ok, enough sunshine for you but thanks again. Oh yeah, Aurich has really good posts, like you, as well. Are you two related?

As stated here by another pinsider, perhaps the person called fox because of the lack of communication from Skitb. In other words, it is like a stock. You have to conduct due diligence. He/she may have called to determine if this investment indeed did have the license? Or like a bad stock, it could go down the tubes if untruths are uncovered?

Just a thought.

Totally disagree with your post. In everyday life we all enter into contracts. Buying gas for your car, buying groceries, etc. A failed contract with a merchant is always the fault of the side that does not deliver as promised. Any court in the US would agree with me. Placing blame on the party that fulfilled their side of the contract is just wrong!

This is an excellent point to make! An excellent point of view. In a judicial sense (who knows, everyone has to at least concede it is possible) part supply may or may not protect later orders. admin. and other manufacturing costs may or may not eat up the rest of the funds on deposit. What is important is tangible assets. It is possible that there are only enough early part fulfillments to insure low number orders will at least get a "Grab Box" ...something...more than hot air? Who knows? Your point is a valid point though and should be discussed/acknowledged by the forum!

Excellent post!!! Mature and objective! A benefit to all readers who are able to take the emotion and the subjectivity out of cyberspace forum reading!!!

Good Job!!!

Easy question...real easy actually. It took you what...30 seconds....60 seconds to post that here? Why does Kevin aka, Skitb not do exactly what you just did? 60 seconds? How long was your phone call with him? 60 seconds? Perhaps more? Just saying....

Well if you know that conclusively, it sure is not fair to the other 249 purchasers to not know it as well. I have noticed there are a few people running around with privy information. It is bad enough that this forum was used to solicit these orders and then abandoned afterward. Matters worse are some people are on the, "Inner Circle" and know details that others do not.

Personally I wish the silly thing gets built. It bodes well for pinball in general and Michigan for having a boutique builder. It is a shame though that all this drama could have been prevented by just using this forum in the same manner as it was used when the funds were lobbied for here years ago

I think what is disappointing to many folks (at least to me) is this is the place that the game was promoted the most and to solicit funding. If returning to the place that, "Seeded" your first project creates a hazard to your personal health then I question if said person is in a position anyway to complete the project. Also, I do not think anybody is demanding/expecting Kevin to read each and every post here. True that would be time consuming. I myself do not even read all posts in a thread. However, surely he could post an excerpt from the Fox License....a photo of a near completed pin...a personal paragraph to the 250 purchasers and the pinside community??? Once in awhile??? Again the place that you utilized to sell these pins??? Uh huh...makes many wonder why

<<<Because it's a discussion forum that's open for discussion whether you agree with the view or not? It'd be a lame ass forum if no one ever posted thoughts or feelings, because really, they're not many facts to go around. >>>
----------Posted by MattRasmussen

I agree with this 100%. It is a public forum. Whether you bought one or not you should be able to express a concern or opinion without being attacked and called a troll. There are some serious issues at hand here. Not just the communication black hole and not just the timeline being shattered...also not just the question of the license. It has been mentioned earlier and still remains valid. What happens post ownership and a technical issue arises? Will the inner circle of Kevins friends be the only owners who get treated fine and the rest ignored? Will your emails go unanswered as you stare at a non working $5k pinball machine in the corner of the room? Will some "elite" inner circle friends get code updates and you do not?

A very valid concern is post ownership. To predict such will exist or not exist, one must ponder known information and attempt to forecast a reasonable outlook down the road. Reading this and every Predator thread...reading the near empty Skit B website....listening to a phone ring and ring and ring unanswered....what would your, "reasonable outlook" be for post ownership support??? Throw in the fact that a percentage of Skitb resources have been devoted to EOD during the attempt to push Predator pins forward. With All Predator Pinball machines out the door, how much of SkitB resources be devoted to EOD and possibly another future pin? 85%?....90%?....100%?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually Whysnow you are incorrect. Kevin personally told my wife, best friend and I that 75% of the orders (back then, not sure about now), came from Pinside. This was at the Mich Expo. Kevins mother was also there and informed me of a couple tidbits. However, we gave our word we would not repeat. They were all positive comments btw so not to be perceived as mud slinging.

Well here we go again. Another person who claims to have all these "Facts" and yet again will not "Share" them with us, the pinball community. I closed to stupid podcast window at 3 minutes...right at the point he said he is not going to share everything he knows.

WTF! Same crud from even more people. Nobody wants to just states facts. Kevin is more guilty than anyone. It is all the people claiming "to know things" that keep creating and fueling all this drama. It is total BS! Grow the hell up already!

It's BS. Yet another person to tease everyone and create drama. I am so tired of people saying they know more about this skit issue...they have facts...then they say they cannot share them or won't. When will this crap stop already? It is what creates all the drama and intensifies it further. If you friggin no something and do not intend to share it, then just SHUP UP! Do not say a word at all about it.

Jeesh this crap is getting old already!

I bailed when he pulled that secret room crap. It was in one of his videos. Remember those? He walked around the shop and showed his computer...showed Arron...then showed the Proc processor on the table....then he kept saying "over there is the secret room. Only Arron, my mom and me get to see in there". I was thinking" wtf, who in the hell does crap like that? You are trying to get orders by faking it...I truly believe that secret room had nothing but a broom and dust pan in it...oh yeah...maybe some spiders too.

That podcast dude says right at the 3 minute mark, "I have additional facts and information but I decided not to share it in this podcast".

WTF???????????

My point remains the same friend. If you know something and have no intention of sharing it....do not say a word!!!! Keep your mouth shut. Why? Because it just adds to and creates further drama. If everyone practiced this common courtesy, we would all be better off! For what possible reason can there be to say," I know something you do not...I am not telling...I know something you do not...I am not telling"..
It is BS!

Why? Why friend? To gain what? If you have something and have ZERO intention of sharing it, why not keep your mouth shut? Why taunt like that just so now all the listeners have to speculate...guess...ponder what the secret facts are? It is BS IMO! I do not play that game. I wish others did not either. Life would have less drama in it!

He did a good job of bragging that he has facts and information that we are not privy to. He did a great job of rubbing that in and I have no idea why? Perhaps to show off? Make it sound like he has a grasp on more "behind the scenes stuff" than us and further causing the audience to be attracted to him? TO make the audience "crave" more? Come back time and time again? Sounds just like what Skit B did on this forum? They both should not play these games. Just say the facts and all the BS would stop. I promise. If everyone just stated facts or kept their mouth shut if they do not plan on sharing...I promise, the drama would be gone! ***POOF***

It is pretty simple. Why would I listen to the rest? When you say you have facts and information but decided to not share you are doing the exact same thing as Kevin. Those that are frustrated with Kevin should also be frustrated with the podcast guy. Same routine. Also, it is a very poor act of journalism standards period! You do not see CNN or CNBC doing that crap lol. If this podcast dude wants to be a journalist then he should play by the rules. The only time journalism does stuff like that is say....well...maybe the ISIS issue and the beheading videos. That type of graphic violence is held back because of the horrible video and that children might see it. That is the only time. Professional journalists do not do what he did, period. Name one besides him? Can't? He is trying to be a professional right? I wish him well but he needs to do it correctly.

Peace>

What about the sounds and music? Seems like that would be pretty important. Maybe a decent sized discount (partial refund) would be in order for the theme changing? I'm out so that is up the 250. Seems reasonable to ask for it though.

Teasing just adds drama and the whole circle just repeats. Anyone that does this should be put on permanent ignore. Why play 3rd grade games? "I know something you don't know...lalalala I know something you don't know...lalala" Very immature. Kevin has been doing for years. The podcast dude is doing it too. If someone knows something and they have no intention of distributing it, just shut up and do not say anything. Just like you commented on! There should be a pinside rule about it, it is like harassment in my opinion!

If people would just tell the truth. Kevin, people on this forum, myself....just tell the truth as you walk through life. Don't play games like hoarding information/lying/truth stretching/pausing communication...walk through life talking/writing honest facts! No more deception and all the drama that goes along with it...just facts whether they are good or bad...just facts!

Life would be so much better. Of course not all can do this. Many here (reading now) would "Crave" the drama....we know who they are...lol...we all know. If only those here and the other ones throughout the world could come on board and do it? Ahhhh what a great place it would be!

Good luck to the 250 and I hope you get a pin and in a reasonable amount of time. This ordeal reminds me of a bad stock. There is a point where if you "fall in love" with it, no matter how many red flags go off, you just end up holding and praying and hoping for something good to happen. Sometimes it does. Others times it does not. I hope this is not a time that it "does not"!

Actually it has been proven time and time again that the best person to represent is one without a vested interest. This has been proven in almost every area of life. Neighbor disputes, civil lawsuits, etc. The reasoning is that person is most likely to be 100% objective. Making decisions while taking all the emotion and anger out of it. All would benefit better with representation that has not anger or emotion. Again, this has been proven over and over again in at least 50 studies. I can cite if required.

I do not know. You know what would be nice though? If Kevin took 15 minutes and made up an excel spreadsheet indicating what is left and what is expected to be disbursed. Then everyone could make a reasonable forecast of whether the project has enough funding to go the distance or if you think he may need to ask for an additional $500 or $1,000. I think it would help man owners sleep better at night and earn a lot of trust back from the community, especially here at Pinside.

I don't (think money is mysteriously gone). He seemed like an honest fellow to me on multiple occasions. His mother too. Your post sounds reasonable except maybe he had to spend money on legal (lawyers) and perhaps a building lease up front payment? I thought he mentioned that to me years ago about getting a building secured. Anyway, I do not think he conducted shady things. I just really...really...really hope he kept a decent ledger. Most people are reasonable but you always get those picky ones that will demand to know where it all went down to the very last penny! It will be hard to please those types of people and they will make accusations, probably, if they cannot be shown every last penny dispensed.

I remember that too. I spoke out as well. Nobody should do that IMO. Not hi, not the podcast person (Nate) not me...nobody. It just adds drama and also is like taking a trip back to 3rd grade and teasing that you know something but will not share it. WTF? If you know something and have not intention of sharing, then what purpose is there to flaunt it? Uh huh...nothing. Just trying to be a BigShot and add drama. Jeesh. I belong to 10 yahoo stock forums, a golf cart, corvette, mustang, Belize, Tampa and at least 4-5 more I cannot remember and I have never seen anything like I do here It's like people always want to out do each other and "One up" one another. Like it is always a competition Sad.

Peace to all...if that is possible (I hope).

Are you talking about UL and CE? I am assuming he needs to get CE for pins leaving the country. I thought UL was voluntary though (wise to get it though in case someone's house burns down and they blame it on your device).

So you want other pinball players to pay for your loss? If you bought a stock and it went to zero, do you want other investors to pay for your loss? Tis is not like a family lost their house in a fire and need charity to provide a shelter and food for small children. This is not like a 10 year old boy/girl having a brain tumor and needing funds to go to Disney World. This is people (some silly for closing their eyes at all the red flags) that bought an object from a crooked vendor. You learn from your mistakes. Try not to do the same thing again in the future. Asking for others to pay for your mistake is way out of line imo.

Soliciting funds from Pinside, reaching your "Full" mark and never returning. Then purging all reference of Predator from your web site and emails. Then never securing the manufacturing building you broadcasted to the world you were doing any day now (remember had that executed there would now be a physical address, somewhere you could nock on the door and expose this whole lie).

Well...yes those things make you a con. truth hurts I understand, still a con.

I think what he is saying is it is like stock because this situation is similar that you cannot touchy feely. Like a start up company, there is no product out yet, no manufacturing facility to go drive by and look at. Jeesh maybe it is worse. Many star-ups at least have a front office with a hot chick you can walk into and grab a cup of coffee. This basement gig Kevin had going did not have that Anyway, people got screwed and yes it is different and there are Consumer Protection laws for this type of thing and stock/equities do not have that. Like a stock though there is a point when red flags sometimes go up and if you are not acknowledging them then you watch your investment go down...sometimes down the drain and BK. It is like a stock in that regard. You have to be objective and take the emotion out of it in order to avoid the disaster like this. I really feel bad many were crushed (just like a bad stock) and had game rooms pretty much already reserving a spot for this pin. Some had all the accents too! There seems to be zero chance this pin gets built. I hope all recover funds. I have never ripped off an investor in my career. I hope Kevin does the same thing!

You are correct and this has been proven many times. Examples are the Segway...the De Lorean and even the Tesla. All convinced others they had enough on paper. Ultimately they did not. They had to solicit new and increased funding to finish. It is likely that is what Kevin requires as well. Will people here invest more or will new investors "Chip in" to get this done??? That is the ultimate question!

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?

SoundBlaster
Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies

Yes. This is a common problem with forums. For some reason I think Pinside Predator forum is the worse. Now notice I did not say, "Pinside" only. I mean this stupid Predator forum has been tough for two years on people. There are always two sides to a conversation and many here simply did not want the opposing side of the argument to ever post here. If they could have had a magic button to push and make all the naysayers disappear, I am sure they would have mashed it over and over. Sad indeed. I tend to believe all can get along in a forum. Even if you do not agree, you should welcome the others point of view. I do not mean you can insult or cuss at others, I simply mean express your opinion without being told, "Get out" or "your a troll". Too many people get their, "panties in a wad" like you said. It seems to always be worse in this Predator thread too

I am not convinced it would have mattered. Nobody wants to see anybody lose money but if you posted it here it probably would have triggered more subjective arguing instead of objective decision making or discussion. For example I offer the days after all the web site information regarding Predator vanished. Now one would think a decent discussion could take place when that happened. Did it? Back read and we all know it did not. That had to be the biggest red flag in the world yet it could not be discussed in a civil manner. People were insulted, called trolls...called jealous they were on on the list or did not have the money to buy one. It was awful. Day after day the sayers said, "Kevin is just doing the web site over. Kevin needs to focus his time on the actual machine and not the web site or youtube. Kevin sold all 250 so why should he need to advertise it on his web site" Yep, those were the good ole days I hope we all can learn a valuable lesson on how to co-exist in a forum looking forward. No matter what side your viewpoint is on!!!!!

Let us not forget something though. Many of those folks who say, "I told you so" are the same ones that had their heads handed to them on a silver platter in days gone past. They were insulted, ridiculed...made to feel like they had no voice in a public forum. It is not fair to make fun of people today....it was also not fair to make fun of people back then!!!!!!

Hilton does not need to be treated that way true. But----Hilton has his own issues too. He creates drama where there is none to be. Fact. Check the Shadow thread. A poster asked for responses to what everyone thought it was worth. Many replied...including Hilton. Sooooooo. Hilton goes around singling out any post that signaled a higher value than what he posted. Mine included. In fact his snotty attitude to me was, "Well, why don't you go buy it then if you think it is worth that much"

Again he creates drama where there is none! I hope he and everyone else get there money back. I hope that Pinside threads allow everyone to post fairly. I hope everyone that posts does it in a manner with respect and not to create drama or be snotty. I can only hope

Friend...there is another possibility and it stinks. You receive a judgment for "x" amount of dollars and the defendant claims personal BK afterwards. I had this happen to me for $15k 30 years ago

What if it is a prank? Some sicko toying with people who are in a difficult position? I hope not but have heard of stuff like this

Are you trying to create drama or what? Insinuate what? Trolling? Give me a break. I was posting a thought that I simply hope some sicko was not playing a prank...like using an email address with 1 digit off or different. I have seen it before.

4 red flags were ignored period. All 4 red flags were brought up here and never did a civil conversation result...never. People fell in love with the pin and the concept. I can see why, it was appealing. I was even in until 18 months ago. Red flags are red flags.

1) Was here almost every day when it was funding time. After piggy bank was full, bye bye.
2) ALL Predator information, videos and references removed from web site, you tube and emails.
3) Delay after delay. Touting a second pin while delaying and stealth silence for 1st pin.
4) Promised manufacturing building never executed. 2 years in the making to lease, then did not.

Red flags. Hopefully if this ever happens again...people can discuss it in a civil manner.
1)

Yes it is common sense to request to see the license. What normally happens is a copy is made. Then sensitive information like price is struck through with a thick black marker. You then make a copy of the copy so no bleed through can be detected. Many times this copy is just given away for you to keep as you manufacture others I. P.

Oh yeah, you always check the date and the duration to make sure you are not potentially outside of them. In other words whatever contract you enter into make sure it is not outside the terms of the I.P. contract.

Please stop. If you read my post you see that the comparison of Tesla was only to show that a company can solicit funds for a project and then find out it is not enough to actually manufacture. This happened with Tesla. The point of my post and what Neo was saying is that it is possible that Skit b would be in the same situation. The end of my post said that it would not surprise me if people end up having one more decision to make (like Tesla) and that is whether to give more money to Kevin to finish this thing (so he can pay Fox if they are willing to license).

That is exactly what I said so please do not twist it up and call it ludicrous!

Small claims court sure is a bummer sometimes. I won $15k 25 years ago. 3 weeks after I won the person filed BK. It seems that most of the people that end up as defendants in small claims are the type of people with few assets and it is pretty much routine that they file bk if they lose any significant amount.

Someone said they received an email from Kevin promising full refunds. That would be cool. Then he can regroup and come out fighting again on something else in life. Everyone wins in that scenario Some else mentioned he would take a refund minus the $250 initial deposit...that is pretty cool too. Perhaps Kevin would be quicker with refunds if he thought some would accept slightly less? Some of you could group up and discuss it and then propose it to him. It seems he is backed into a corner pretty tight right now. I know what he did was wrong about the license but if he had a glimmer of hope, of getting this issue closed, maybe he would process things faster? Just a thought.

Whatever. It is not worth anymore of my time with you. You twisted my post up by posting an excerpt and it is totally unprofessional. Next time put my entire post up and if you can reference the other parties post I was commenting to. My post is totally valid and your in line for food sentence makes no sense at all. Have a good life.

I have no idea what the point of your post is. It all started with you trying to suggest to others to pay for their potential loss. Way out of line. Now posting this is just trying to argue like others here. You are looking for drama and freebies for others. Way to help out.