Quoted from Whysnow:

I am not embarrased one bit.
Real pinheads would have stepped in and tried to get things back on track rather than toss on more fuel to the fire.

Quoted from hassellcastle:

I can tell you where I think some of that money went, although its just speculation.
You can't tell me over the past several years he was spendin on his own dime to travel and transport the prototype Predator Pinball to Pinball Shows. I'm sure that was looked at as a business travel expense and it came out of the Skit B till to fund these trips.

Quoted from jrivelli:

To add to it, I 've received two cease letters in my life. Both from Fox for hosting Simpsons and some other audio files for a .wav sound bite site I had years and years ago. I ignored them both. Then got another more threatening letter. Ignored again and never heard from them again.

Quoted from unigroove:

I haven't followed much of this, but I did play the Predator prototype at Expo and thought some of the rules were pretty original.
I'm not commenting on whatever Kevin supposedly did or didn't do, as I don't know. For all I know he may have been talking to someone and being mislead himself (I'm in a naive mood ).
Anyway, there is a very simple solution for the whole matter. Actually multiple:
1. Kevin gets the license after all, produces the games, end of story.
or
2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from o-din:

Better to lie and fail than not lie at all. The world is full of red tape.

Quoted from Dayhuff:

Just came across this. Somebodys idea as a joke.
grandrapids.craigslist.org link
John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.
269-979-3836

Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

He lives in Michigan, im sure there are people in this close by. I know I've thought about driving out there but im a long way away and im not so sure what knocking on his door will accomplish. Im giving him this last deadline to refund my money and if it doesn't happen Ill proceed with a suit.

Quoted from sd_tom:

The only difference is fraud/scam in spirit/intent vs fraud/scam in fact/legal. Fine i can agree Kevin didn't fraud/scam people "in sprit" (instead is a naive, delusional boob) but the fact is he committed fraud due to his actions

Quoted from DeeGor:

Virtuapin is probably the only vendor out there that would turn a blind eye to the copyright violations. Hell, look at vpforums.com (owned by virtuapin). Nothing but copyright violations there.

Quoted from blondetall:

I think at least one of them has a hatred for Kevin that overrides everything else,

Quoted from icust298:

I would be curious what amount people would sell their "possible future refunds" for and what someone would pay for the chance of the buying their position in the "possible future refund".
I know no one is going to be able to sell or buy, just would be interesting to hear what some people would buy in at and take on the risk and what some would be willing to cut their loses for.

Quoted from herbertbsharp:

Check yourself.

Quoted from HunchbackHodler:

punk-rocker actually

Quoted from Mr68:

Completely agree and I love your metaphor.

I agree with this also. The vast majority of day to day crime is solved by informants.
What great panache to be out in the open, right under the nose of a large corporation. A few more months and many of us might have had the ultimate bad boy machine in our collection.

Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

You sure about that? Or are you going off the information here (which looks like it was for the 2014 show):
http://www.mipinball.com/?p=893

Quoted from PaulLang76:

It was clearly malice. If not, why stop at saving Fox's IP? If they were so concerned about licensing shouldn't they be contacting Disney, AC/DC, Metallica, etc. about all the pop bumper caps, toppers, speaker grills, etc. that use their emblems and art and even advertise them as products for those IPs.
So c'mon AG, at least be fair when you decide to administer justice on everyone's behalf. Oh wait, that's right, you probably have all of these items already installed in your machines. Mmmm, Hypocrisy...
And for those that believe that all the items I listed above are some how safe. Let us not forget the Firefly hat incident:
http://www.techhive.com/article/2044685/i-almost-got-sued-for-knitting-a-firefly-hat-the-legal-risks-of-pop-culture-fan-art.html

Quoted from Nibbles:

Especially when they sit on that information for months pulling a majority of the 'plebs' out of the chargeback timeframe

Quoted from jonnyo:

The only thing I agree with you on is the smugness.
Had I been in their shoes I probably would have done exactly the same and gone through some sort of 3rd party to break it like they did with PBN. The reason is simple: if I'm wrong, for ANY reason (technicality, license info lost in giant multi-national company, lawyer just being a d***, etc) then now I potentially get sued for killing the project.
Here's the kicker: even if I'm *right* I can still get sued. That happens all the time to shut people up.
Now, why am I going to take on that risk for YOU? It's great you like pinball, but I'm not going to risk getting sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars because we have that in common, sorry. I'm not going to risk being the most hated guy on Pinside ever because I just killed a project run by this hard-working 'merican in ol' downtrodden Michigan just trying to share his love of pinball. They'll be writing country songs for him, and gangster rap for me. F that.
The signs of license trouble have been there for a long, long time. They acted on that evidence, you didn't.

Quoted from frolic:

Well, as the story goes, the reason all the websites were scrubbed was because of a Cease & Desist, so there was some awareness by Fox. But we don't know if Kevin's game of keeping things on the down low after that would have succeeded, especially with a 2 year+ production build.

Quoted from belairjoe:

production? just minor details..i have a dream! channel 11 told me I was special..im also a bad ass because I say so..yes..the other 95% is what people should have questioned.

Quoted from vid1900:

OZ-coatrack.jpg

Quoted from Sjsilver:

See, because the AG has refused to show themselves, and have stated that they would deny it forever, and because Whysnow repeatedly called it the Texas group (I assume he's the main source of that, when he was calling out Jared, and I don't recall any other primary source for that claim), ANYONE from Texas who has a thought on this is under suspicion, even if they deny it. Another reason I wish they would just stand by their convictions that they did the right thing and own it. The sooner the entire story gets cleared up, the better for moving on.
Seriously, people are going to be pissed that they handed it off to PBN and they sat on it for months, and people are going to be pissed about how they handled it, and some people are going to be pissed that they did anything at all. If they are such warriors for truth, they should honestly assess how they handled it, own the shit they have conviction of being right on, and apologize for anything they might, in retrospect, feel shame about. Unlike Kevin, no one is going to sue them, no one is going to harm them, they aren't in legal trouble, they will just have some people on the internet angry at them. Part of being an adult is realizing you can't make everyone happy, and when you realize you actually wronged someone, all you can do is sincerely apologize and let THEM decide if and when to forgive you.
Bottom line, more secrecy isn't helping the community.
-Stephen Silver (fake internet names are dumb.)
PS. My meaningless vote: I'm fine with them handing off their big piece of info to PBN for respectability and due diligence, as the pre-PBN article environment was very non-receptive to license claims, especially with Keven letting others vouch for it on their reputations. It's unfortunate that said due diligence took so long, partly because of misguided hope that the project could be saved, that chargeback windows closed. But I'll give Martin the benefit of the doubt for not knowing what the average chargeback window was and thinking that no amount of rushing to print would have helped people with any refund options. They owe Pinside an apology for trying to have it both ways: giving responsibility to PBN, but also smugly taunting people, "preparing" an inner circle, and pompously making themselves the center of the story at every turn. If they wanted their actions to be vindicated so badly, they should have owned it and immediately brought all their evidence forward. If they cared about it being done right because they weren't 100% sure they had the whole story, then they should have handed it off to the adults and not done the whole cloak and dagger, secret inner circle warnings bullshit to increase the theater around the final reveal. It didn't help anyone.

Quoted from Sjsilver:

See, because the AG has refused to show themselves, and have stated that they would deny it forever, and because Whysnow repeatedly called it the Texas group (I assume he's the main source of that, when he was calling out Jared, and I don't recall any other primary source for that claim), ANYONE from Texas who has a thought on this is under suspicion, even if they deny it. Another reason I wish they would just stand by their convictions that they did the right thing and own it. The sooner the entire story gets cleared up, the better for moving on.
Seriously, people are going to be pissed that they handed it off to PBN and they sat on it for months, and people are going to be pissed about how they handled it, and some people are going to be pissed that they did anything at all. If they are such warriors for truth, they should honestly assess how they handled it, own the shit they have conviction of being right on, and apologize for anything they might, in retrospect, feel shame about. Unlike Kevin, no one is going to sue them, no one is going to harm them, they aren't in legal trouble, they will just have some people on the internet angry at them. Part of being an adult is realizing you can't make everyone happy, and when you realize you actually wronged someone, all you can do is sincerely apologize and let THEM decide if and when to forgive you.
Bottom line, more secrecy isn't helping the community.
-Stephen Silver (fake internet names are dumb.)
PS. My meaningless vote: I'm fine with them handing off their big piece of info to PBN for respectability and due diligence, as the pre-PBN article environment was very non-receptive to license claims, especially with Keven letting others vouch for it on their reputations. It's unfortunate that said due diligence took so long, partly because of misguided hope that the project could be saved, that chargeback windows closed. But I'll give Martin the benefit of the doubt for not knowing what the average chargeback window was and thinking that no amount of rushing to print would have helped people with any refund options. They owe Pinside an apology for trying to have it both ways: giving responsibility to PBN, but also smugly taunting people, "preparing" an inner circle, and pompously making themselves the center of the story at every turn. If they wanted their actions to be vindicated so badly, they should have owned it and immediately brought all their evidence forward. If they cared about it being done right because they weren't 100% sure they had the whole story, then they should have handed it off to the adults and not done the whole cloak and dagger, secret inner circle warnings bullshit to increase the theater around the final reveal. It didn't help anyone.

Quoted from Sjsilver:

Plenty of people were stating what they thought at various points along the way. People complain about negativity on these forums, but there is also a very real "positivity policing" that exists, and some people are very skilled at using to silence criticisms and opposing points of view. Lots of people had varying pieces of the puzzle, but I firmly believe that nobody but Kevin and probably Aaron K. had the whole picture, until the PBN article landed. Hell, even the AG and Martin thought that there was a possibility that last minute scrambling could save the project right til the end.
I was in on it, I had my reservations, and got out well before the $3k demand. I was honest with my friends that were still in about what I saw, but there was enough compelling evidence on all sides to make anything plausible, until PBN.
I guess what I am saying is that more voices speaking up early on wouldn't have changed much, especially since Kevin was able to manipulate people's general value of positivity, and the willingness of others to put their necks on the line to add legitimacy to his claims. I don't begrudge anyone who looked at the sum of the evidence and claims provided, and came down on the side of believing Kevin, even to the end.
I think as long as you were decent to people in however you expressed yourself, you have nothing to apologize for.

Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Yeah Id say really close friends. You can tell by the staunch support of all that is the AGOCJ and downvotes of anyone who opposes.

Quoted from robertmee:

There's a whole lot of personal entitlement being thrown around in this thread. The only person that owed anyone anything was Kevin Kulek. Not the AG....Not Martin....Not Fox. I'm guessing there's a generational difference here that influences one's mindset. There's the group that grew up with everyone gets a trophy and there's the group that learned only those that put in the work get rewarded.
Bottom line, anyone here had the same opportunity to contact Fox and find out about the IP just like the AG did. Those guys did not put on some superhero suit to fight crime. They got off their ass, picked up the phone, and made a phone call. Same thing anyone else could have done to protect their interests. Don't be butthurt now and deflect blame to anyone but Kevin because you didn't do your own due diligence. The writing was on the wall a loooonnnng time...the clues were there.
And for the record I am not part of the AG and have no idea who any of them are...and don't care.

Quoted from nintendo:

I will definitely recommend this to Pinside officially. It's counterproductive which is why both Facebook and Disqus removed that option. People already downvoting my posts in spite

Quoted from nintendo:

Stop dude. Really. My initial post was not bashing the downvoting feature because I was "bothered by people on the 'net disagreeing with you...".
This is not the first time you've twisted my words around. Like NGGecko said, let's stop with the sidetracking and that starts with you.

Quoted from Half_Life:

You have missed the point entirely. Regardless of which side of this you may be on is completely irrelevant. Neither side is going to convince the other of who is right. We have read many, many pages of this particular topic and where have we gotten? We are at the same place we began. Is it so important that someone can thump their chest and say, "Look, I was right."?
What's done is done and cannot be undone. Continuing this finger-pointing is much akin to a urinary olympics. Let's just focus the discussion squarely where it needs to be, on Kevin Kulek and ScatB. I'm all for civil discussion provided new and fresh ideas are brought to play. Rehashing and volleying the same points is rather circular, don't you think?

Quoted from hank527:

So again, how do we go after Kevin and try and get our money back and put him in jail where he belongs.

Quoted from TigerLaw:

Does anyone know if Kevin has an actual job?

Quoted from jayhawkai:

Is punk rocker a job?

Quoted from asay:

Nothing came up in PACER Michigan for his name (with or without poopoo ) but I'm only an armchair internet lawyer, maybe someone else can dig up some juice that I'm not finding.

Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Maybe Kevin can build the pin "Idiocracy" when hes in jail.

Quoted from fosaisu:

Not quite what you're asking, but here's Roger Sharpe saying that all pinball licenses he's negotiated cost "far less than" $100 per machine.
http://pavlovpinball.com/pinball-licencing-101-how-much-why-and-harry-potter/
If Kevin were able to negotiate like Roger (ha!) he'd have been paying something less than $25k to Fox for the whole project. Of course he'd also have had to comply with licensing requirements for the design, actually pay for the music, etc ... All a total pipe dream in Kevin's case, of course.

Quoted from spfxted:

...and more

IMG951620.png

Quoted from labnip:

add quotes
..."survived"...

Quoted from ironspider:

I knew that the math regarding labor required for 2 or 3 guys to make 250 machines just didn't work under any scenario.

Quoted from rommy:

Bonus garbage - and an important reminder not to preorder ... The duck I mean.

image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

I cant tell you how good this line is!

Quoted from rosh:

I think I figured out what he means by "middle truth", (although your definition is certainly more entertaining). As I said in one post, there are three sides to every story, in this case AG, Kevin and the third, being the actual truth, which lies somewhere in between or 'the middle'. I guess Kevin decided that he is going to tell us what the 'middle truth' is -- but that is not how it works, he only gets to tell his side, he does not get to tell anyone what the truth is, since we know he is 'truth challenged'.
Whether we ever get the 'middle truth' is doubtful, but the primary thing people care about right now is not the truth (although that would be nice), but the money -- show us the money!!!

Quoted from Roostking:

They got how many people to fork over thousands of dollars, Ya never know...

Quoted from vid1900:

Yeah, if Kevin was a supervillain, he would have had a better plan - take 1000 pre-orders, oversell the 1000, then announce a LE version, then announce a 30th anniversary Ruby Red version, send all the proceeds to Isis so he can get his 7 virgins....

Quoted from RonB:

Oh, he's probably getting counseling alright!

Quoted from Nibbles:

No, the best ending is him refunding the money that he has stolen from ~150 people. And then going back to the hole he crawled out from, never to be heard from again.

Quoted from nintendo:

Well he did mention that he will get back into pinball as he still believes in the Predator project The last article from pinballnews he said something about not ruling out that option...

Quoted from spfxted:

That's what PM's are for...

Quoted from HighProtein:

So, this was a Non-Profit endeavor???

Quoted from vid1900:

At least someone local could understand their Michiganian dialect.
Google translate won't do it yet.

Quoted from guyincognito:

What if the settlement comes down to:
Each unsatisfied Predator buyer and up to 3 guests can use the SkitB vacation home in Midland, MI for 1 weekend date (Saturday or Sunday) once every 3 years with unlimited access to high-end photography equipment and up to 10 partially constructed Predator pinball machines.

Quoted from Hitch9:

Two years ago, Midland Mi was the centre of the universe. How time changes everything.

Quoted from Pintucky:

Take me with you!!! I wanna see the rest of the world before I die. I'll buff your shoes and lay out your clothes for you.

Quoted from Enaud:

Okay, you're missing the point here. It is CRITICAL that the court is aware that he knew he had no license to legally produce and deliver this merchandise. As such, he acquired the funds under "false pretense". Therefore, if he chooses to declare bankruptcy, the creditors can make the bankruptcy court aware of this and as a result the purchases become a "non dischargeable" debt. This is extremely important if he chooses to file for bankruptcy.
If you want your money back you need to file a civil complaint. Leave it to the Midland County Sheriff to take care of the criminal complaint.
I'm not a lawyer, but I have lots of good lawyer jokes. Let's bring 'em on!

Quoted from TigerLaw:

Some people ask how many lawyer jokes are there? The answer is surprising because there are really only three. The rest are true stories.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Don't care what people think about KISS... songs like
Detroit Rock City
Strutter
Shout it out Loud
Calling Dr Love
are sweet

Quoted from TigerLaw:

I believe it is third behind the EM for sale thread and the XMen Club.

Quoted from iceman44:

I'm on your side Nibbles and I feel your pain, trust me. The facts will come out soon enough, not hearsay, and hopefully, again, more people will be made whole!
Plus, I'm ejected from my Jpop thread for 24 hrs. for calling him a "dick", like several hundred others haven't done the same thing. Need a place to vent.