(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion

By Xerico

9 years ago


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87 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 10 items.

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Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (7 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (7 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (7 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (7 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (7 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (7 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (7 years ago)


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#12694 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

No, it wouldn't work.
You have to keep Fox in mind. Predator IP belongs to them, and them alone. Nothing can happen from these proceedings that would result in Fox taking any kind of loss. They never asked for this mess, and they never agreed to anything involving it. Anything Predator-related on those games is technically stolen property. A sale of *anything* involving Fox IP that Fox does not get compensated for is a loss for Fox. I'm sure there's some fancy legal term for it, but basically, you can't have an agreement/argument between two parties (kevin and buyers) that results in a loss for a completely non-affiliated third party (Fox). If you *could* you can be sure unscrupulous people would already be exploiting such a loophole.
Only thing I can think of would be the judge ordering the games sold as part of the BK liquidation with a compulsory license payment paid to Fox, but I don't know if there are laws providing for that. Most likely is that Fox is given the games as illegal contraband. Keith can fight for them.. will be interesting to see the results.
In your videogame example, the game studio has presumably entered into an agreement with the owner of the IP they're making the game with, and such an agreement would cover what happens if the studio goes titsup before the game's done. In kevin's case, Fox has no agreement with anyone, and didn't even know the games were being made til they were tipped off years after it started. It is in Fox's best interests to discourage piracy of their IP, and going soft on Kevin would only encourage more stupid behavior from other stupid people.

The license would only apply to a manufactured available item. This being either sold or distributed, including given away free of cost. A prototype(s) would be fair use as personal property up until moved to another party.

I could build a predator pinball right now, even a few, as long as I didn't sell or distribute them. They would be actionable assets if the bank came knocking for personal debt liabilities. Since bung hole that has the machines can't produce a receipt for the items, they are still considered personal property of Kevin.

i.e. They were never transferred legally, and did not violate IP.

#12696 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I know different states have different rules but here in Louisiana a receipt is not necessary to evidence a sale (titled items like cars, guns or trailers are a bit different). You can have a sale and it be perfected without a receipt here in Louisiana.

Like most places, I believe. I think the general idea is that he could not produce any reason for a legal transfer that would have explained his possession beyond hiding assets for Kevin.

#12731 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

No.
The initial sale was unlicensed. You can't sell stolen property. Building a game filled with Predator IP and selling it with no license is illegal, regardless of original build intent. To allow otherwise opens the door to all kinds of crazy shenanigans (like the idea of selling the game enough times so that it eventually becomes "clean" LOL)

You're close...but not quite. It's not stolen property, it's infringing property. Huge difference. If it can be shown he acquired it with compensation to the owner, he's got a strong case to hold on to it. The seller however.....

Quoted from sevenrites:

I was working as a sub contractor for a company that was selling a single, one of a kind $3000 item that was unlicensed. They were contacted by the attorneys for the IP holder and ordered to destroy the one of a kind piece of merchandise they were holding. They never actually destroyed it, and the company / attorneys never followed up. So I'd assume anything is possible at this point. Now granted, there's no way the company I was working with could have turned around and tried to sell it, at least out in the open or online anywhere. I'm sure the attorneys / company holding the license would have really stepped up their game.

A lawyer can demand anything...

#12749 7 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

In Doc 37, it states that the Defendant (presumably Tim Fife) testified that the Predator in question is the property of the Debtor (presumably Kevin). Care to comment?

That's poorly worded and frankly, sloppy work from the lawyer.

That claim implies that it is factual that the machines are property of the Debtor..... That hasn't been shown, from what I read. He didn't produce a receipt, but as it's been mentioned...that's not a confirmation of compensation or not.

#12751 7 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

It's probably a couple more to be honest. But I've never had a "dup" account per se, really just only one active account at a time. So I prefer the term subsequent account please. Thanks buddy! Good night.

I'm kinda interested in how you paid for these machines. Was it 10K cash, no receipt, no bank withdrawal? How did you back up your claim of purchase? Witnesses?

Was it a barter? Gift?

I'm curious, because there seems to be some key issues that could be cleared up with proof/explanation of compensation.

-2
#12753 7 years ago

Well, if that it true, and the lawyer representing the pre-order crowd here went ahead and submitted those claims in the manner he did, that changes my opinion quite a bit.

I get that it's his job to claw and scrape every angle, but I would hold contempt for him going ahead with the challenge of ownership when there is evidence he did not follow-up on. That is negligent and downright lazy.

I also understand the raving hornet's nest of people that lost their money here, but I don't think from what I've seen here that you're obligated to turn over anything. Naturally, I would also consider any information that I don't have to change that stance, if valid.

#12758 7 years ago

There is no chance IP claims can be brought into the concern of the machines that were bought by a third party. The infringement was not committed by the purchaser it was committed by the seller. Even that can be argued, since the purchaser has stated that the items were bought for educational use, which is indeed fair use (if he was ever challenged).

The item is not being marketed or reproduced, and is not a counterfeit of an official offering. No harm to the IP can be shown.

If the machines were still property of skitb, then they could be seized and destroyed, and that's ONLY because they would be offered up for sale as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.

#12792 7 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Then it sounds like it comes down to what was said in the deposition and/or what can be proved. On the one hand, Keith in his filing of doc #37 says Kevin still owns Predator and it is on loan to Tim. On the other hand, we have Tim here that says he can prove he paid for it from a party once removed from Kevin. That will ultimately be a decision by the court I suppose, unless Tim decides to voluntarily return the pin to the trustee of Kevin's bankruptcy proceedings.
I'm no lawyer, but that's what I glean from all the conversations.
Lastly, I know emotions are raw on this subject, and alot of people were burnt in this process. I have my own opinion of Tim's actions (not the man, never met him), but I'm with the earlier Mod posting....let's hear him out. Whether truth's, half-truth's, middle truth's or outright lies, any information that can be added to this might lead to new avenues in the prosecution of Kevin. From lies being dispelled to new truth's clarifying the situation.

True, a copy of the deposition would be good to read through.

I'm not making a judgement call on Tim's character or the perception of those that view him on Pinside. I'm basing my opinion on the facts as they are presented (as such they are). Looking at it critically, without being involved with the emotions of the situation it's easier for me to see the weak arguments.

Quoted from KerryImming:

But Kevin did NOT have the right to sell it.

That doesn't address the issue of the buyer. How does this change the statement of the purchaser?

Quoted from Brickshot:

Seriously. I buy and sell all too much and it's not just games. I've bought and sold dozens of playfields, parts, and all sorts of pinball crap. I've dealt with dozens and dozens of folks and deals. I'm supposed to remember exact numbers paid and dates? There was no email or FS thread to go hunt down in this case. It was a phone call from a buddy I talk to regularly and I showed up with cash. Again, talking to Keith the day before the deposition he made it sound like he just wanted to hear me say under oath that I had no affiliation with Skit-B or Kevin and it would be a simple thing. Real Mr. Friendly guy. I had no problem with that. Then he hit me with the 1000 specific questions which I answered the best I could at the time. Again, I called him the next day and volunteered to clarify my testimony under oath after it became apparent he wanted much more specific info. I was happy to help. He never called me again.
But keep dragging my name through the mud and slandering me. We'll see where this goes alright.

A lawyer that doesn't work for you, calling for a deposition is no friend to you...ever. This lawyer had a strategy of recovery from you from the start. The fact that he didn't let you amend your deposition when you called him should have been a red flag...

You need to look at your laws concerning the deposition and what your rights are to review, and correction. If you don't, it could be used against you in your absence to push his agenda in court. The claims he issued to the court show this already. IMO, you should be consulting a lawyer yourself.

Quoted from Enaud:

Hey Tim, were you an already paid in full customer? If not, those customers would have been in line to get the unit before you. (Not that this would have ever happened.) So, in effect, Kulek sold a piece of merchandise that was already sold (to about 200 people). So, Kulek would be double-selling the same item multiple times. Can't be legal IMHO.
And your bank withdrawal statement: That does not authenticate the transaction with Kulek if you don't have a receipt.
Now, if you could simply shut the f*%K up perhaps we could stand by for some actual useful information about what is proceeding.
Rant over.

No, it was not merchandise. It was a prototype.... That is outside the scope of your statement.

#12820 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

You kinda forgot one part. Insert "He fraudulently collected hundreds of thousands of dollars using Fox IP and claiming to be licensed" as step 3.
I think Fox would want this whole mess, including the machines, to just go away; and they have the power to make that happen.

That has no reflection or responsibility on the IP holder. Stop the red herring.

-4
#12863 7 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Not a red herring. If he actually released the game and it sucked, it would potentially cause damage to their IP/trademark ("Wow, look at that shitty Predator pinball, I can't believe they let that get produced.. " etc). Even one copy can be enough to destroy. This is one of the main arguments rights lawyers make concerning counterfeit products. Although there was never a real Predator machine, shitty unlicensed games can hurt Fox's reputation.

You need to do some reading. You don't seem to understand what a red herring is...and then you follow it up with a slippery slope argument to back up your claim? Yikes man.....just yikes.

#12903 7 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

The reach-back period for preferential transfers to ordinary creditors (i.e., non-insiders) is 90 days prior to the date that the bankruptcy petition was filed, so any refunds received by the so-called Anonymous Group ("AG") were well outside of the reach-back period by the time Kulek filed Chapter 7.
The reach-back period for preferential transfers to "insiders" of a debtor (e.g., family member, partner) is 1 year pre-petition. For fraudulent conveyances, it is 2+ years.

Should not the lawyer working for the Pinsiders that retained him be looking into this angle? A Fox rep should be deposed to determine what information was brought to them, and who made that contact. Wouldn't that be a pip of info...

That could easily put those slippery eels, that received refunds, into the group of insiders. If that happens, they would be liable to pay back the bankruptcy trust due to the 1 year vs 90 day classification.

#12907 7 years ago

Nobody would have to fear paying back the trust that didn't deserve action against them.

If those involved with the "AG" got identified from investigating Fox, and had to compensate for their actions, THAT would be a service to the pinball community. Right now, there is money that can be added to the pot (from those that sound like they abused their knowledge).

-1
#12909 7 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

4] Anonymous Group investigation: October 2014 - March 2015
https://predatorpinball.wordpress.com

Well, here's the issue then...

By slowly leaking out the information: "to key members of the hobby and selected Pinsiders (mainly trusted & respected Immortals, as well as Moderators, etc)."

They created a situation of insider information that stretches a lot further, and makes MANY others liable under that 1 year limitation. That would lead to the question, "Were there any refunds made between June 3, 2015 - June 3, 2016?". If so, Each of those is subject to inspection. Interviewing the Fox rep is required here to discover the identity of the "AG" contact. I'd also be curious as to which Moderators were given this information...because if that is true, that's a concern as well.

There's so much blood lust going after Kevin, that people seem willing to turn a blind eye to the people that are also liable.

#12914 7 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

The whole anonymous is formed of pinside Immortals and Moderators statement they made when they broke the news was certainly not true as to the mod team. Just a toss off statement designed to confuse at the time.

Which is why I was careful to add "if true". That's also not quoted quite right. They didn't say that it was "formed of"....it was "informed". What you said changes the meaning a lot.

It doesn't change the opportunity to get Fox on the record, I'd like to hear it. Saying there were no refunds during that period is just hearsay. There's a lot of layers to this onion. At the end, I'm half expecting a Scooby Doo ending, with a rubber mask being pulled off and Gary Stern stern saying "And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids".

#12919 7 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I guess the only person who knows the answer to that is Kevin.

And Paypal.

Has the Pinside group's lawyer investigated Paypal? Seems there's a huge amount of sniffing that isn't happening. Paypal: "oh, here's all the money. Nobody asked us!"...

#12936 7 years ago

"Insider", as it would apply to bankruptcy would be a stretch to blanket anybody outside of the 90 days before filing. Those that couldn't be directly tied as an associate, that is. I would agree with you on that.

I'm guessing that's why what's his name that bought the two machines got deposed, and specifically asked about ties/association with skitb.

2 weeks later
#13419 7 years ago

Nice.

It just needs Jpop in Rick's place to complete the picture.

1 week later
#13936 7 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If people want to really help, please help me find someone that can verify if/where Kevin or his associates have a route operation in the region he lives. I am offering 500 bucks for information/verification of this and guessing if that amount grows then someone (maybe even one of his friends) will be looking to make some side cash in exchange for information.
I have already recieved annonymous phone calls from some of his friends or previous friends with information. I just need some verification of this information.
If people want to add to that initial finders fee then feel free.

Start adding Kevin or his wife's friends on an alt Facebook account. I'm sure more than a few would know where the other machines are. A bit of cash would likely get you photos and addresses of where the machines are.

A Facebook account with a picture of somebody covered with mud, leaning up against a lifted pickup truck, and missing some teeth is all the camouflage you'd need.

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