(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

5 years ago



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Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20

Post #12066 What is PACER and where are you getting the court documents? Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12502 Links to where Kevin gives "his side of the story". Posted by BillySastard (2 years ago)

Post #12515 Updated court filings. Potential cash coming into bankruptcy estate. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12528 Good summation of 2 year look back and possible fraudulent transfers. Posted by flynnibus (2 years ago)

Post #12580 More legal pleadings. Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #12593 Facts & allegations document for VirtuaPin Posted by c508 (2 years ago)

Post #12801 Photos of Experts of Dangerous Posted by fastpinball (2 years ago)

Post #12872 Enaud's account of contacting fox regarding skit-b Posted by Enaud (2 years ago)

Post #13034 Description of an adversary proceeding (or AP) Posted by jasonp (2 years ago)

Post #13477 Discharge of debt denied by order Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13483 Stipulations for waiving chapter 7 discharge Posted by Compy (2 years ago)

Post #13528 Audio recording from Jan 27 court hearing regarding bankruptcy filing Posted by Wolfmarsh (2 years ago)

Post #13729 Summary of legal bankruptcy terminology Posted by Razorbak86 (2 years ago)


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#2671 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I know the avenues he is pursuing to try and tidy things up. If they work out, great. If they don't, he knows what he needs to do.

If the avenues do not work out I'd be concerned about the part "he knows what he needs to do." Because everyone getting a refund seems unlikely, right? We've seen numerous pictures of bags of parts and cabinets being made so clearly a lot of money has already been spent. I can't imagine how those costs are recouped to refund everyone?

Pred.jpg

#2910 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

He's got 10 playfields, 10 cabinets, parts for 10 machines.... and Backalley custom parts for 250 Predators. We've seen pics. Other than that, what else he has spent money on is speculation unless someone has insider info.

Unfortunately it would seem those 10 games were never approved by the studio. I've seen and played the game in person at the Shark Club in Howell, MI. It was okay fun. But as others have noted, there really is a fair amount of gore in the game and obviously Arnold's likeness (among others) as well. It's hard to imagine how that could have been approved as is. Thus, I don't see those 10 games going anywhere if the studio has something to say about it.

So I would think this project would need a major restart (including re-pricing) to ever move forward. The problem now is, much money has clearly been spent. Folks will not get a full refund. Nate did sum it well. Admit fault, refund what you can, and move on.

#2923 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Oh, I'm not saying that there's 10 games ready. I was just counting what we knew for sure that he had spent on parts as far as the expendatures talk above. I doubt those 10 games will ever be built, as-is or otherwise at this rate.
Edit- I've said many times that I'll take a "build it yourself" Predator puzzle kit. I contemplated putting some options on my refund email, like:
A. $4750 returned
B. $4250, a playfield, and a few spine bones/skulls
C. $1000 and Predator puzzle in a box
Right now I'm apparently getting D... none of the above.

Sorry to hear that. But options B and C cannot legally happen either, right? Whether it's in pieces or not it would still have to approved by the studio so unless Kevin is willing to do this on the side?

Aside from the parts purchased I'd also be concerned where Skit-B was getting the money to travel around the country with Predator for various shows, and developing (and producing) artwork and actual translates for their 2nd pin. If I had money on the line I'd be very nervous right now just how small my partial refund might be.

#2930 4 years ago
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

In moving Forward, there are only a few options:
1) Stay on board, and hope for the Best, and see what happens
2) Request a refund, and then see what happens.
3) In the absence of results from 1 or 2, then one either accepts their loss, or discusses any opportunity
of legal effort.
Am I missing something?

I think you only have option 4 ... accept only a partial refund and take the loss, whatever it is. Options 1 and 2 will go nowhere. Option 3 (legal action) will also cost you more than you will ever get back. As others have noted, Kevin does not live in a mansion. He has a wife and kids and his wife does small work on the side as a photographer (family pictures and stuff) as far as I know. I don't know Kevin personally but I don't believe he has another full-time job. Thus, I'd be worried he has been paying himself a small amount using the funds received from pre-orders (in addition to business expenses such as traveling around to shows) and that's why I would be concerned how much is left at this point.

All that being said, I've also met and talked with Kevin and he really did come across as a really, really nice guy. I just think this has gotten away from him and he is in way over his head at this point.

#2931 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

And all the video clips on the DMD? Audio?

And translight?

#3159 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Here's the irony: the rumor is that Kevin's father is good friends with Roger Sharpe.

Many, many pinheads in Michigan can claim the same. Roger is very active in the pinball community and just a very friendly guy to boot.

This is going to end badly for some unfortunately. Forget just being able to simply build a pinball machine (which they are apparently far from building at this point.) Does anyone else remember the hell JJP went through getting their "electronic" machine certified? (I forget the certification names a company needs?) Do you remember how much effort went into just designing the box for the game with all the required government approvals and what not? Do you think Skit-B is anywhere near that point for dotting their I's and crossing their T's? Heck no unfortunately. If a miracle happens shortly and the studio magically agrees to give a license, at a reasonable price, AND approves the current design (L O L), AND gets pre-order folks to pony up more money ... they STILL would have a huge mountain to climb to get this done and shipped to customers. Sorry. Not happening.

The ONLY question Kevin needs to answer is ... when will you admit this isn't going to work and tell folks how much money you can refund each person??? Because we know they won't get a full refund.

#3236 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Thanks for pointing that out. I now have an address to send my refund requests to.
FYI: Just got this mail from Kevin:
As you all could imagine, over the last few days I have received quite a few emails and inquiries that must all be individually addressed and simply cannot be handled in the course of a few short hours. I am here, I am listening, and I am returning correspondence as quickly as I can. I would simply like to let you all know that you are not being ignored, and if you have sent me a message within the last few days, the messages are being answered in the order in which they were received and you will be receiving a personal response very shortly.
Thank you,
-Kevin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I had just received this email I would be more frustrated than ever. He can send out a mass email like this but he can't send one out with the clear answers that everyone wants? He has to send personal replies "in the order in which they were received"? Seriously? I think he's training to be a politician.

#3270 4 years ago

Very curious, I cannot find any corporation registered in Michigan even remotely close to "Skit-B". The only company's with the word Pinball in their name at all are below. From what I've read you must register the corporation first before applying for nonprofit status (so it should be on file). Also interesting is that the law states "In Michigan, your nonprofit corporation must have at least three directors at a minimum". So if this truly is set up as a nonprofit who are the other 2 Directors on the hook here? Aaron Klumpp left a while ago, no? Now I'm really curious if they ever actually got around to registering this business officially?

Comp.jpg

#3327 4 years ago
Quoted from DevilsTuner:

I am now on the phone with his local police department telling them all about this thread. SHIT IS ON NOW! One of the first things the officer is asking about is dollar value. I told him 750,000.00 Thumbs down that all you want pussies. I will get refunds out to people.

It's more than that isn't it? But 750K minimum. I have to think a fair number of people said screw it, why not pay in full and just give him the final 1k now, right? So it's anywhere between 750K and 1.1 million I think.

#3328 4 years ago
Quoted from PismoArcade:

His wife????!!!!

No, I believe that is his mom, no? His wife's name is Amanda.

#3338 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Are you certain that's her name? I wonder if anything interesting might come up if you google her full name?

His wife's name? Yes, I'm positive it's Amanda Kulek. You can search for her on Facebook ... her page is public. I think Kathy is Kevin's mom (possibly an Aunt but I'm pretty sure it's his mom.)

#3376 4 years ago
Quoted from BillySastard:

It says that she "can't stand people who lie".

I don't see any reason to bring his wife into this at all honestly. It may be she was complicit in what is going on but there is no evidence to suggest her involvement and no need to be harassing her IMO (at this point anyway). Although I'll admit it is strange she/they bought a new house somewhat recently and it's 100% in her name.

But Kevin is the one who needs to answer questions. From everything I've seen there is clear evidence that a lot of money was being spent. How much did he pay his mom (or others) for playfield artwork? Who knows. Did he pay her for "accounting" or other legal work? Has he been paying himself? I know he hired at least one person to help him out with everything (Jimmy I believe?) So how much was he getting paid as an employee? How much was spent building the prototype? How much was spent on travel and shipping the game around? How much was paid to Matt at Back Alley? How much was spent securing the license (lol.) Etc. etc. etc. They even had Skit-B shirts made and other marketing stuff. This did not all come out of Kevin's pocket.

I'm just crossing my fingers for you folks that at some point Kevin realized this was never going to work and this went from good intentions to bad. I hope he quickly determines the amount he can refund to everyone and just come clean and kill the project.

#3385 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Devilsturner, put the crack pipe down, what do you think the police can do about this? Lol this is America man, not Cuba! What do you think the cops are going to do, arrest him on your word? Give a me a freaking break.
Well I hope you jack-offs are happy (you know who you are..) you wanted to start a panic, and it looks like the feeble minded took your bait.

I'm more confused why you think the police wouldn't investigate this as possible fraud? At this point, I can't even find a record of him establishing a corporation (of any kind) here in Michigan. If 250 people do not get what they paid for and they can't even get a refund ... I'm pretty sure the police would investigate.

#3396 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

99.999% of the time when you call the cops about a money transaction dispute, the cops say that it is a civil matter, and that you have to take the person to court.

This is SO different. You guys are crazy. We're not talking small claims here .. we're talking somewhere between 700K and 1.1 million! We're talking money transactions that not only crossed state lines but international lines (wire fraud). We're talking about clear and documented communication from him that can easily be proven as lies (and thus, fraud). Unless Fox comes out and says yep, we gave him a license to use and there was never a problem and we never asked him to take down the Predator content, then he was LYING. He intended to deceive. Fraud! And unless he can realistically account for how all of the money was spent ... more fraud. Has anyone ever watched American Greed??

17
#3401 4 years ago
Quoted from pmWolf:

Holy crap, people...you guys are acting like the refunds should all be issued TONIGHT.

Read the whole thread. There are people who have been asking for a refund (repeatedly apparently) since January! I think he's had plenty of time.

Can ANYONE state they have heard of anyone getting a refund since January?

#3426 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

The personal attacks and inclusion of wives and families are not going to yield anything but drama, pain and greater misery. If your intent is to try and hurt Kevin and his family, well, nobody can stop you. But it is not going to speed anything up at this point.
Kevin called me and we talked about how toxic things have become and where things will go from here. We have talked regularly about all of this over the last couple weeks. You need to know that the steps being taken are not a result of today's surge of threats. Everyone needs to calm down while these remaining details are getting worked out. Resolution is coming, one way or another. While I was mislead on aspects of licensing, just as you were, I am still willing to advise him through these steps and decisions. Kevin has all the data, all the options and all the outcome possibilities clearly laid out and he will be making a rational decision based on that.
In the meantime, let's all take a breather. Get off this thread for a few days. Go spend time with friends and family. Hell, even play some pinball.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

I hear ya, and it's nice that you seem to suggest that things really aren't that bad but I also feel for folks with thousands of dollars out there who A) Don't know when that "resolution" will be decide upon by Kevin B) What exactly are the options or best case outcomes people can expect and do they not have any say? and C) Being that so many others have been deceived for so long (including yourself you admit), how is it you're so confident you are not being deceived further?

#3459 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I can't believe an owner was ejected from this thread based on this post. He may have violated the forum rules for questioning a moderator, but considering what these guys are going through, I think more leeway is definitely in order here. I think a warning would be more than sufficient.

I think someone said earlier it's only a bug right now. It's not an actual eject, it's just a warning (the message reads wrong.) Because we've seen the same message on other posts and those folks are still in the thread.

#3614 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Hindsight-funny-Star-Wars-quote.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

lol. That made my Saturday.

#3616 4 years ago

The one thing I still find confusing is how Skit-B could have ever been set up as a "nonprofit" as claimed (I think this should have raised additional red flags IMO). I'm reading the guidelines for the form 1023 (federal tax exemption) and I just don't see how a company that manufactures a product (and entertainment game no less) and sells that product can be accepted as a "nonprofit"? The fact that I still can't find any corporation registered in Michigan with anything remotely close to "Skit-B" (no "Skit-B", "Skit", "SkitB", or anything with the word pinball in it) still is troublesome as well in my mind.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/forming-nonprofit-corporation-michigan-36070.html

#3640 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I got one person emailing me that he had no license.
I've got another emailing that he only has a North American license.
Send everyone a "Jungle Assault" game.
Blanked out faces on playfield, blank cab and translight.
Let everyone decide what theme they want the game to be.
The-Blank.jpg
» YouTube video

Even IF he got a license ... ANY type of license (which I doubt) ... there is no way so many of the things in this game would have gotten approved by the studio. The blood, gore, and likeness of some mega-stars would have all been scrutinized (nevermind the video clips, sound bites, and music used.)

This game is not happening (at least not from Skit-B). Get past it. Hopefully a reasonable refund process with the remaining money can be worked out. Because I'm confident people have anywhere from $250 to the full $4750 paid and how the remaining money gets divided up and refunded will be an issue.

#3642 4 years ago

Does someone know the gentlemen from Back Alley? It would be very interesting to hear from him on how many parts (for how many games) did he make and ship to Skit-B AND get paid for? Does he have money still owed to him? I would imagine those parts weren't cheap and that is money now gone. You can divide up the remaining money for pre-order folks but you obviously can't divide up a couple dozen skeleton toys (assuming he didn't make all 250) to give folks as part of their money lost.

#3654 4 years ago
Quoted from gprotein:

Damn right Kevin should send out a set of the toys for all the paid owners... However, who gets to keep those 10-20 PFs and cabs? Whysnow sure wants to get his hands on them.

I'm sure if Kevin wants to avoid legal trouble from Fox he better agree to destroy all cabs and all playfields. Those contain IP of Fox. As for the skulls Back Alley made ... those are just generic skulls and I don't think would fall under the IP of Fox.

I'm still curious if Back Alley was paid in full for the skulls/spine made for the game itself (not the toppers.) I would think he'll be eating the cost of the toppers at a minimum, right?

And technically speaking, couldn't Spooky be liable as well for printing artwork that was never approved and was IP of Fox?

#3674 4 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

I think that's a very plausible reason why he's not issuing refunds.

If the money truly was being held be PayPal as promised then there is a very good chance PayPal has caught wind of this and has frozen the funds themselves (whether Fox requested it or not). Kevin may very well not have access to the money right now and simply cannot issue refunds even if he wanted to.

#3678 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

No one would be dumb enough to leave the money in a Paypal account.
They are not a bank, they are not FDIC insured.

Were'nt those Kevin's exact words? He stated he had a close relationship and agreement with someone at PayPal and everyone's money was safe?

#3711 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

What happens if he files for bankruptcy?

You need to have a company established in order for it to file bankruptcy. I see no registered company anywhere near the name of Skit B (I don't think you can just register a random name and then operate your business under a completely different name can you?) And I highly doubt he's filing personal bankruptcy.

#3814 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

someone was asking about "business entities" earlier...
Here's some info below, but there could be variances based on each state law. this is not legal or financial advice.
You can file a DBA (doing business as) in your County/Parish. It can have any "unique" name within that Count/Parish. Revenue/Costs/Margins/Taxes can reference that business DBA, but it all funnels to the individual in the end for tax filing.
You can register a business entity in any State (ie: tons of companies in other states actually file in Delaware). That business entity name can be anything "unique". (doesn't have to include Skit-B, Predator, Kevin, or other words we might know about)
You can register a business entity with the federal government (IRS) to get an EIN (employment identification number) for filing federal taxes. That can be a "unique" business entity name.
So, if looking for Skit-B business entity existence, consider trying...
a) The County the business exists within, but who knows what that business name might be.
b) The State the business exists within, but it could be registered in any State & who knows what that name is.
c) The IRS, but same issue with business name.

From what I read on Michigan's website is that if you want to apply to be a "nonprofit" organization you must first register a corporation (not a DBA) with that state. When you're a corporation (a legal entity) how you operate and the name you operate under does matter. If for some reason Kevin did nothing more than file for a DBA in his local county I think that opens him up to all kinds of more legal problems (i.e. his personal assets can all be at stake.) Additionally, I have no idea how he could claim to be a "nonprofit" organization?

<Edit> Just read your explanation Rarehero which may well be true. Fair point. But he still doesn't seem to have a Corporation registered with the state (of any kind) and that really will open him to more legal trouble if all he is operating under is a "Doing Business As" (DBA).

#3953 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Well if he doesn't post something early next week you can mark something in the "full of shit" column for the anonymous email people, because that's what they're claiming.
Here, this is the last message they sent me when I said just post everything public yourself (if you don't want me to share your emails without permission then have the balls to send then to me not anonymously, and I'll respect that, but I don't know who you are, and I didn't ask for them):
"No. Only about 9 people total have the information. You being one of them.
We cannot just throw it public, as we have worked on this with Martin at Pinball News for 3 months now. He's got everything researched, vetted, and even Kevin's defense/statement on the truth. He's got the recordings of the phone calls with the Fox lead attorney, if he's ever challenged. He's got it all. We ended up falling into the story, but it's Martin's scoop. It's also his decision when to publish. Since Kevin is involved in providing counterpoint to the editorial, Kevin keeps buying time by presenting "hope" and by doing so, keeps getting reprieve for another 2-4 weeks. Martin backs off publishing... and this has been going on and on for months now.
We're currently trying to nudge Martin to publish and just get it over with, so the whole hobby can know what Kevin did and the trouble he has been in the last 3 months. We'll see where that goes. As the group that presented Martin the story in the first place, we do hold the ability to publish ourselves using another service. It's Martin's call. We've asked him to make a final decision and set a publishing date.
PS: Cannot believe what we sent, you don't think it's legit. Every single word, and Kevin's unthinkable gamble and getting caught by Fox, are absolutely true. We only selected you as one of the initial recipients to be seeded with the truth, because you are adult and rational. It's a freaking shame the owners don't know yet. Yes, they certainly deserve to know. We're working on that.
Sorry to have bothered you."

WOW. Just wow. Based on the tone of this email it is very clear now that this isn't just smoke ... but a raging fire. I feel terrible for everyone with money in this (and like many others, I was "this close" to buying in myself.) People don't need an article from Pinball News to confirm they're screwed. THEY NEED KEVIN TO MAN UP AND TELL THEM EXACTLY WHAT THE SITUATION IS AND EXACTLY HOW MUCH MONEY (PERCENTAGE) THEY CAN REASONABLY EXPECT TO GET BACK.

MAN UP Kevin and don't let Pinball News be the one to break the story to your customers.

19
#3964 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I wonder when people are going to start contacting IP owners for every other pin manufacturer. Has anyone reached out to WWE to make sure Stern has the license? game of Thrones is rumored to be next, anyone know they have the correct IP rights acquired?
Are people actively reaching out to make sure Alien is licensed.
Has Mr. x contacted the hobbit IP holders also?

Why are you so bitter that this has come to light? I don't get it. Even if the licensing issue didn't bring this to light right now, you still seem to be under the illusion that Kevin was ever capable of building 250 of these games. I'm sure you're as upset as everyone else about the situation but you shouldn't be blaming anyone but Kevin at this point. Lies, lies, and more lies.

#3993 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Wait a sec... Mr x was contacting IP holders well before any internet purging. they were contacting fox well before any real reason to question anything. If any of you support this then you should also support similar actions for each and every pinball maker.

I think when someone (i.e. Kevin) started making statements like "sure, whatever was in the movie we can use" it's time to be concerned (which was long ago.) The blood, the gore, the likeness of mega-star celebrities, etc should have ALL been red flags that something was wrong with the license and Kevin's naïve understanding of what he could do with it.

15
#4126 4 years ago

Of all the emails Kevin is personally responding to "in the order they were received", it's amazing that there is not one Pinsider here who has gotten a response yet?

#4176 4 years ago

Absolute crazy. Never had a license. Ignored a cease and desist. Finally shut down by Fox. Sorry, but it's absolutely criminal. He clearly understood what the cease and desist was and he knowingly ignored it anyway. That doesn't make you a "bad business man". That makes you a criminal!!!

Sorry to everyone with money in. This project is absolutely dead. As noted, those 10 games worth of parts are worthless because Fox would never approve the artwork. All artwork would have to be completely re-done and approved (playfield, cabinet, and translate.) There is no way people will trust Kevin ever again and who in their right mind would not want a refund right now?? Game over sadly.

I hope you guys get a good percentage of your money back. Good luck.

#4186 4 years ago
Quoted from DCFAN:

One thing I did not notice in the article is the subject of what status Kevin has for Skit-B. Is it a non-profit, is he acting as an individual without a company, or is it an LLC or something similar?
Also, does Kevin and/or Skit-B have tax filing issues related to the income from the sales?
What a mess.

That's an excellent point!! I wish Pinball News had tried to get that answer out of him because as I've repeatedly noted I cannot find any company registered in Michigan by Kevin!

#4190 4 years ago

The meat of the supplemental from the "anonymous group":

LIES:
Kevin had a license that was “small” and/or “inexpensive”.
Kevin had license limitations that limited or prevented promotion.
Kevin had a license that expired.
Kevin had a license that ended up incomplete, weak, or had “issues”
Kevin dug out his “license” and discovered he “didn’t have what he thought”
Kevin had “issues with his license” that are “being addressed”.

TRUTH:
Kevin NEVER had an actual license for ANYTHING on Predator.
At any time. From day one.
Of any scale, scope, or cost. Not a cent paid to anyone.
Of course, yes: Before he took investor money.
Knowingly. Planned that way. Simply skipped the entire process. Period.
His plan was to attempt to build 250 Predators, license-less for all IP used.
Save/keep the license money. No approval processes, complete freedom.
Play the extremely good odds that Fox (and others) will simply never find out.
Completely hide the project after selling it, to eliminate risk of ever getting caught.

Please let that sink in. Read it again if necessary. The utter worst-case scenario assumed under the “License-Gate” controversy, was actually the true case. No problems or issues… no licenses AT ALL… and to Kevin’s dismay, he DID get caught.

People assumed there would be no way possible that any pinball creator or business, especially a bro as “nice” as Kevin Kulek, would have the brass balls and/or stupidity to risk a million dollars of other peoples’ money on actually building 250 licensed-themed pinball machines, without a license, hide it all for safety, and simply PRETEND to have complete unincumbered rights to it all…

But yes. Yes. Yes, it IS possible. It just happened.

#4196 4 years ago

Dear "Anonymous Group": Please investigate if Kevin skipped the whole process for even registering a corporation of any type!! I cannot find one which means this absolutely opens Kevin up to being sued personally which I think people would want to do to try and recover more of their money back.

12
#4439 4 years ago

I'm very sorry for everyone with money involved. But FYI, Kevin's wife has recently been bragging on Facebook and elsewhere about all of her new photography equipment and "studio" for her side business. As previously noted, they also have a brand new house in Midland MI purchased only months ago that is apparently 100% in her name alone. Could be completely innocent and unrelated. However, it does not look good at all.

Bottom line, I don't care how nice Kevin comes across in person. He deserves what is coming. And I don't think anyone should forget about Aaron Klumpp. My understanding is the 2 really did have a personal falling out. However, he was just as complicit and guilty before and after their departure.

#4735 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

More than your anonymous group ever had. Was dealing with some people to organize 11 games in one batch, none currently got a refund. I'm in with 3 games one close friend with another 2 and others with much more, so definitely IN from the first minute. But that's not the important question, or?
Here it comes:
So reading your article, FOX did hear the first time in November 2014 about the Predator Pinball initiated by you / your anonymous group? Is that right?

I hear your frustration in your post and it's somewhat understandable. However, I think the license issue is only the most prevalent issue at the moment, but not the only one. The fact is, Kevin already admitted he couldn't build these machines and he never budgeted to have someone else build them. There were significant roadblocks to these games ever being built (certainly not without getting pre-order folks to put up even more money.) To say this has been poorly managed from the start is an understatement.

#4750 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Who wants to lay odds on Stern picking up the actual Predator license now that this whole kerfuffle proved interest in the game? heh!

If you built a new cruise ship would you name it Titanic? I think the title alone is tainted now and might not sell well (with all the confusion) on that alone.

#4757 4 years ago

Kevin must be sleeping in this morning?? No new email from him yet? I can't believe he wrote last night that "he's still here" and "working through the process". This is clearly someone who does not care about processes much less accountability.

#4759 4 years ago

Also, one more thought for the few folks who seem very angry that "Mr X" brought this to light:

It is in no way fair to REAL pinball manufacturers (such as Stern and JJP) that some kid can skirt the entire licensing process to build pinball machines that directly take away sales from them. If I were them, I would be ticked.

#4809 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

...the only thing Kevin has to figure out now is how to refund whatever money is left. I agree, if lawyers get involved, there might be nothing left. I think most people here would be happy getting 80% of the money back and not going through a lengthy and costly court drama.

That's only half of what he needs to do in my mind. If he says 80% (or whatever) of the funds are left, he better darn well show exactly where every dime was spent. Because keeping 15K (out of 700K or 1 million dollars) aside for himself to buy a new house (oh, just a random example) would be very easy for him to hide at this point.

#5032 4 years ago

If (and this is a big if) Kevin is telling the truth and everyone gets a full refund, any guesses how much money that means he is personally about to eat?? I mean seriously, if he had all 250 sets of skulls/spines made from Back Alley wouldn't that alone mean about $25,000 (at $100 a piece ballpark?) And what could the cost of 10 playfields be? The list price on Virtua Pin's website says $950 for a regular body, fully trimmed cabinet (decals are additional) so that's roughly another $10,000 right there alone.

For some reason I am highly skeptical that Kevin is able to just eat the probably $50,000 spent so far (minimum) out of his own personal account. Something is still very much rotten here.

#5061 4 years ago
Quoted from jrivelli:

So if he does refund all the money and there is no scam then thats super lame of the folks who tattled to fox, right? This was a small 250 run with a prototype that went to shows. Perhaps insanely slow to develop etc. Not the issue. Now, because some "pinsiders on a crusade", or however they identified their self-rightesous selfs, fox wins and all 250 preorders get money back, but lose. Bummer!

It just doesn't make sense. There is no way all of the money is still there. And Kevin and family certainly do not appear to be wealthy by any means. Don't give up contacting your credit card companies and pursuing other avenues to get your money back.

12
#5062 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Doesn't matter what you say is fraud. It's what you can PROVE is fraud....

Umm, I don't think it will be too difficult for even a junior lawyer to prove. Numerous emails declaring in no uncertain terms "absolutely we have the license" compared to Fox's statement "we've never heard of the guy or his project and we've served him a C&D". Case closed.

-2
#5064 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I cant resist asking. How is she a witch? What can she do. Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?

Oh man, you do not even want to know. Look at her public facebook page. She attends events with other "witches" in full dress and what not. God forbid you should ever say something religious around her because basically she (or Kevin for that matter) will try to talk well over your head with the history of religion and it all being BS. She is pagan (obviously) and to her it's the only "religion" that makes sense.

#5069 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Jeez! Do some of you just like to argue? I'm not saying it would be difficult...just that it's not automatic. If you're going to court you have to SHOW proof. No more, no less. You can't just go in with a good story.

Agreed. Not arguing. But there seems to be ample documented proof available. So again, good luck with that Kevin. I don't know who would initiate the prosecution (if anyone?) But if they do ... yikes.

#5077 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I don't think it's cool to bring his wife into the conversation at all.
Disclaimer: No, I'm not one of them. I'm atheist.

Unless she is also complicit, no? And I have a hard time believing she knew nothing at all and until everyone gets their money back and every cent is accounted for ... she's accountable too (along with her new photography studio and the new photography equipment.)

-5
#5092 4 years ago

**personal info removed by mod**

#5099 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

Ummm.... total creep factor man. Totally worthy of a down-vote...

Because why? I just find it interesting that only a few months she was on Facebook talking about completely remaking (or making?) her "new studio" and was getting all new equipment. I thought that might be relevant for folks wondering where their money might have went.

#5111 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Simple then: Ask Kevin to produce it. Show the paper contract. These things don't happen without paperwork, so it shouldn't be hard to produce for you.
You said you'd vetted it already, but obviously you were just going on Kevin's word. Let's see the paperwork (spoiler: it doesn't exist).

The one odd thing I find curious ... after MPE in 2014 (or 2013?) the artwork for the playfield was changed slightly (a few noticeable changes I thought?) I thought at the time that Kevin stated is was because the studio requested or demanded the changes? Was that really just a lie and they made the changes just because they wanted to?

If Kevin was EVER working with someone at Fox who reviewed their artwork (use of IP) can someone please get him to provide an ACTUAL NAME of the person? (as well as any documented agreement.)

#5135 4 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

I talked with Kevin through the 'approval' process, and everything he said was very credible. Right down to submitting the new art, after changes, for approval.
I'm obviously not the only one that's been duped here. I stated I would not work on an unlicensed product, and I stand by that. I was 100% convinced this thing was licensed.

Wow, if this is true then he should have no trouble giving at least one name of someone specific at Fox that he had to work with through the approval process. Even just ONE name that can be verified.

If it's not true then it is even more crazy. The lengths to which he went to deceive people would really be astonishing (and border on mental disorder.)

12
#5199 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I know who that employee is. And he's maintained that for ages, long before Kevin took down the website and everyone got suspicious. If he wanted to sabotage things he could have done it a long time ago.
So let's not try and turn this into corporate espionage or anything.

I honestly dont blame any manufacturer doing things legitimately for being disgusted by guys like Kevin. It's not "sabotage" when you point out someone is blatantly stealing someone else's IP. Worse, it's impacting business of those doing things legitimately.

#5278 4 years ago
Quoted from icust298:

So the guy lied the whole time about everything, and now people are going to take his word that he'll be paying each of you back in full. If you believe that, I'll sell you my spot in the Predator payback line for $50. In the spirit of the Predator pin thread, I don't actually have a spot, but hey apparently there was never a pin that was going to be made either.

I do believe "some" folks will see money returned. Unfortunately, there is NO way everyone gets a full refund. I'll donate $50 to Pinside if it happens. Promise. Kevin has clearly spent a LARGE sum of money and I just do not believe he could cover anywhere near the total owed out of his own savings. Sorry. Good luck all involved.

#5298 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I dunno what to believe as far as what Kevin says, but you're right, that is encouraging. Shows it's at least possible to still get a fee-less refund outside of the normal 60 day window.

What?? Seriously Aurich? You believe people have a chance of getting a 100% refund? If anyONE does, it will be at the expense of another. I cannot see any possible way Kevin (and "Skit-B" in general) spent any less than $50,000. I also cannot see ANY way Kevin can afford to cover this out of his own pocket. SOMEONE is going to get screwed. Sorry. I really am. This is disgusting. But it's reality. EVERYONE who is sickened by this needs to realize the true depth of the situation. There will not be a refund for everyone. There is no quick resolution. EVERYONE should be disgusted with Skit-B. Not just Kevin ... but everyone ever involved. Each owes an explanation. Back Alley!!! Speak. Spooky, speak!!! Everyone! What did you know and when. What money did you take from Skit-B??? Speak up NOW! This is your chance.

-1
#5303 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

What?? Seriously Aurich? You believe people have a chance of getting a 100% refund? If anyONE does, it will be at the expense of another. I cannot see any possible way Kevin (and "Skit-B" in general) spent any less than $50,000. I also cannot see ANY way Kevin can afford to cover this out of his own pocket. SOMEONE is going to get screwed. Sorry. I really am. This is disgusting. But it's reality. EVERYONE who is sickened by this needs to realize the true depth of the situation. There will not be a refund for everyone. There is no quick resolution. EVERYONE should be disgusted with Skit-B. Not just Kevin ... but everyone ever involved. Each owes an explanation. Back Alley!!! Speak. Spooky, speak!!! Everyone! What did you know and when. What money did you take from Skit-B??? Speak up NOW! This is your chance.

Speak up complacent suppliers!!!

#5311 4 years ago
Quoted from oopsallberrys:

"Before any of the animosity surrounding this project goes any further, a few things absolutely need to be cleared up.
First of all, while I'm sure many of you feel like you've been lied to and taken advantage of, I can assure you all that no part of this project has been created or carried out with any sort of intent to deceive or defraud anyone. I know right now these are only words and many of you require much more than that, which brings me to the next point.
At this point, the faith in what we've worked so hard to achieve has been absolutely shattered and I am left with no other option than to abandon everything and make good on our promises that your investments are safe and return all money associated with the project until anything else happens, if anything else should happen. The refund process is expected to be swift and completed very soon. You all will start to see those balances reflecting in your accounts in a few short days.
To the many of you who have continued to support us and prefer to receive your game, I'm sorry to say that this is the end of the road and you, too, will be receiving a refund instead of a machine. While it pains me deeply to have to say it while we are sitting at the finish line, asking or even allowing someone to stay involved at this point is simply too much to ask.
For those of you interested, there will be a follow-up article posted on Pinball News with the real story in a handful of days, so please keep your eyes open for that, as well.
Signing off,
-Kevin"

I'll be the first to claim more "BS"!!!!! They have spent an incredible amount of money. When EVERY single person gets their money back, great!! I will applaud Kevin first. BUT BS. I see no way everyone gets their money back. Kevin LIED. From DAY ONE, he LIED. HE NEVER HAD A LICENSE. He gambled on your backs from day one. He never had a realistic plan to produce the game at the price advertised. He is despicable on so many levels. The damage done to the hobby we all lover is immeasurable. Sickening. What an a$$ to never admit to the lies and sickening BS he sold to everyone. A$$.

#5313 4 years ago
Quoted from o-din:

Better to try and fail than not try at all. The world is full of red tape.

BS. This is criminal. It's LIES. It's deception. It's sickening. For years on end. Disgusting. This was not an "attempt'. This was a con. I do not understand how anyone could look at kevin and see anything else, ever again.

#5456 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

I am left with no other option than to abandon everything and make good on our promises that your investments are safe and return all money associated with the project until anything else happens, if anything else should happen. The refund process is expected to be swift and completed very soon.

"To the many of you who have continued to support us ...."

"Swift" huh? So everyone should have their money back this week apparently. If or when anyone gets any type of refund, please post it here. Good luck.

And Kevin's last part "To the many"? Really? There are many people here still supporting him?

18
#5463 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

I have a question. What made these people run to Fox and tattle that this guy was making these games? Why would they do this knowing the shit storm it would cause and that it would cause everyone to lose their game and money?

Another person upset that Kevin got caught? Seriously? Would you rather Fox found out 25 games into production and then halted everything? How much larger of a mess would it be then?

The fact is, forget the license issues. Kevin had no way to build these games. Period. He admitted as much. This thing was a mess before the lies came to light.

#5480 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

"The fact is, forget the license issues. Kevin had no way to build these games. Period. He admitted as much. This thing was a mess before the lies came to light."

I did not get this part. I thought everything was going well and games were being built. I don't get why he would go through all this without a license agreement unless they wouldn't give it to him and he decided to do it anyway. That being said I cant believe he would risk everyone's money like that.
So just to satisfy my curiosity, how was he planning on getting the games built?

Nobody knows. But Kevin admitted he didn't have the resources to build the games and the presumption (I guess) is that he was going to reach out to other manufacturers to see what they would charge to build them. Then, chances are, he would come back to pre-order folks and tell them it really is going to cost more and if they wanted out he would understand. Just all speculation at this point though and now it's a moot point due to the license issue coming to light first.

#5539 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

I believe you are referencing my post, I would certainly not call myself a 'subcontractor' I am a p-roc game builder and I have provided help to many other game builders in addition to Kevin, including Scott and Frank on Wooly, Eric on CCC, Mocean and Nelly on Buffy, Matt on Deadpin, etc.

Excellent, now I know who to contact for my own project!

#5740 4 years ago

The OP should add a poll here. Of the folks who have money tied up in this how many are interested in pursuing legal action if 100% of their money is not refunded?

OR, a poll for what percentage of funds people think will be refunded of what is left? 50-60%? 60%-70%?

Because I'm just waiting for the first "refund" to gauge just how truly bad this is.

#5745 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I think he is having trouble with paypal releasing funds since im sure paypal has been bombarded with claims in the last 48 hours.

That may very well be true but I still do not believe there is any way that 100% of the people with money in this will get a 100% refund. No way. So then what happens? What percentage do you think folks will get? Will there be legal action? Nothing?

20
#5750 4 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

Does no one who got in on this not live near this Kevin? If he lived here in Kentucky I would drive to his house and knock on his door and demand he give me the EXACT time frame of refunding and how much money is left in whatever account. Short of him calling the police, I would stay there making my demands. I'm not talking vigilante justice, I just mean calling on him and have him show me where the money is and get a grasp of how much is left. I would hound the SOB to death if he lived close to me here! So no one in on this lives in Minnesota, or where ever the hell he lives?

Plenty of us pinheads live in Michigan. But showing up at his front door (or suggesting anyone should) is not a good idea. He does have a wife and young kids. Showing up in a threatening manner is not an answer. Allow Kevin to refund what he can and then consider using the legal avenues available to recoup the rest of your money (IF you have money involved in this.)

This has hurt everyone who loves and supports pinball. It's a sad chapter in the rebirth of pinball. But let's not get carried away here. He is human. Maybe he made some terrible decisions but I'm confident he is suffering right now from the extreme stress and reality of his decisions.

Although, I really wish he had the guts to just admit that he knew what he was doing was deceptive and illegal. To pretend he was just confused or there was a miscommunication on the limits of the "license" (that never existed) is very insulting to everyone. That part is as infuriating as how the project itself has been managed.

#5861 4 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

Sorry to see how this has played out. I agree, the follow-up posting from the "AG" is childish taunting, serves no purpose.

I think clearly the Wordpress posting was done by a single individual of the "anonymous group". I doubt the whole group collaborated on that. Regardless of how unnecessary it is or was, I guess if I had been duped for a few years with Kevin holding my money and lying, I would be angry too. It is clearly someone venting their own frustration and wanting Kevin to get what he deserves. I guess I can't blame them for that.

#5924 4 years ago

So, obviously nobody has gotten a direct response from Kevin in the last 3 days, correct? Nobody has heard another word from him?

Anyone hear anything new about when we can expect PBN to do a follow-up article with Kevin's response? I hope PBN is making Kevin answer the difficult questions as far as how much money is left and how is it possible for you to promise "full refunds" when clearly a significant amount of money has been spent to date.

#5940 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Kevin by now has probably hired a criminal attorney for the federal case.... and maybe a bankruptcy attorney too.
Both attorneys have probably told him to sit tight:
Stop sending out crazy emails, and don't send out any refunds until the judgments have been rendered.

Did I miss something? What "federal case"? I have never heard anyone claim Kevin is being prosecuted or even sued by Fox (or anyone else). Only that they simply put enough pressure on him to make him realize he cannot go forward. That's all I've read.

#5943 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

AG emails claim that Fox has begun the process.

Can you post the AG email that stated that please? I'm curious to read it. And did they start the process for criminal prosecution or to go after monetary penalties?

I'm still very curious if there even is an official corporation set up for Skit-B. If so, who are listed as the owners? Who would be criminally liable here if there isn't? Just Kevin? What about Aaron Klumpp?

#5983 4 years ago

It's a bit ironic that at the bottom of Skit-B's website Kevin claims a copyright "© 2015 Skit-B Pinball Customs". Riiiiiiiight.

Is it illegal to claim a copyright when you don't have one or even filed for one?

#5985 4 years ago
Quoted from oopsallberrys:

You don't have to file for a copyright to have a copyright. It is voluntary.

Huh? So you can have a copyright without ever even filing for one?

#5988 4 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

http://copyright.gov:8081/help/faq/faq-general.html#register
if you wish to bring a lawsuit for infringement of a U.S. work. See Circular 1, Copyright Basics, section “Copyright Registration.”

Ahh, thanks. I guess Skit-B won't ever have to worry about being infringed upon now.

#6042 4 years ago

Dear Kevin, why do you keep using the word "swiftly" (such as "refunds will be swiftly") in your communications??

anigo.jpg

#6050 4 years ago

I'm crossing my fingers that Pinball News puts out an update story today with Kevin's official response to all outstanding concerns. Seems like 4 days should have been enough time to write up his responses to these questions:

-How much money was spent?
-Do you have an official accounting of where every penny was spent?
-What percentage of money collected is remaining?
-Are the funds in your personal bank account(s), PayPal, or both?
-Are there any hurdles to refunding the money that is left? (i.e. PayPal freezing funds, CC co's chargebacks, etc.)
-Did you ever actually form a legal business entity and if so, where was it registered?
-Will you now admit there was never a license? If not, please tell folks the name of even one person at Fox you were working with to approve artwork as you suggested numerous times.
-What will become of all the parts that have been purchased to build the "10 games" you noted?

#6059 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

With all the legal threats going on right now, if I was Kevin I would of contacted a lawyer who would of instructed him to cease all communication and hold still.

If that is the case then Kevin should have told PBN this by now and it should have been communicated to pre-orders. There should be daily updates IMO. If no legal action against has begun then he should have initiated refunds "swiftly" as promised.

#6072 4 years ago
Quoted from Astropin:

???
Who the hell is going to step into this little hobby and do what Martin does? Know one....that's who. I amazed we have someone as professional doing all that he does in and for this hobby in the first place!

I'm not saying you're wrong but this hobby seems to still be growing at a remarkable pace (it's not so little any longer). I think the audience for pinball news is large enough to support two news outlets.

#6074 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

If Kevin has hired his attorney, I'm sure they said "No more talking to anyone!!!".
First thing an attorney usually does is tell you to shut your stupid mouth.

But wouldn't that same attorney say "Hmmm, well nobody has filed an actual lawsuit against you at this point so you probably should refund the money as fast as possible because that IS WHAT YOU PROMISED YOUR CUSTOMERS." Otherwise, he's just opening himself up to a couple hundred civil lawsuits, no?

P.S - I'm not so sure Kevin is smart to enough to have an attorney yet. If he does, I'm sure the retainer came out of pre-order money.

#6094 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Does anyone really want to hear from Kevin at this point? What could he say that would make anyone any better off than they are right?

Umm, YES. He needs to answer all of these questions:

-How much money was spent?
-Do you have an official accounting of where every penny was spent?
-What percentage of money collected is remaining?
-Are the funds in your personal bank account(s), PayPal, or both?
-Are there any hurdles to refunding the money that is left? (i.e. PayPal freezing funds, CC co's chargebacks, etc.)
-Did you ever actually form a legal business entity and if so, where was it registered?
-Will you now admit there was never a license? If not, please tell folks the name of even one person at Fox you were working with to approve artwork as you suggested numerous times.
-What will become of all the parts that have been purchased to build the "10 games" you noted?

#6097 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

Why? What's the point? It would be interesting reading for sure but it's far too late for Kevin to salvage his reputation by "coming clean." And even if he responded to your list of questions, how could you possibly believe the answers?
All that matters is getting the money back to the buyers. Either Kevin starts refunding the money immediately, or the lawsuits commence and this whole mess gets slowly and messily resolved in court.

Because I think a lot of people are still struggling with how much of this was blatant fraud and how much was his ignorance and arrogance? If he can't account for every penny being spent directly on pinball (i.e., not say, a new house or photography equipment for his wife) then I think he saves a little face. I think he owes that to the whole pinball community (especially if he ever wants to show his face again at any pinball show.)
But yes, I do agree the MOST important thing is to give back every last penny he possibly can to every person on pre-order.

#6121 4 years ago

Do. Not. Believe. It. Perhaps she meant there appears to be enough to cover YOUR deposit Whysnow. Id like to think it's true but I just can't see where Kevin got all the money to cover everything spent to date.

#6129 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Hey, I found Rodger Sharpe...

0326151210.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

You should ask him his thoughts on whether criminal charges would be sought in a matter Like this.

#6131 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am just relaying what the paypal lady told me.
I opened 2 claims (1 for initial $250 and 1 for the remainder).
Both claims were immediately closed via paypal for being too old.
I called my cc and was told also too far gone (Chase > and they told me only 4 months back for disputes; I think I also get shorter then normal because my chase card recent switched from MC to Visa as my previous rewards program was cancelled so they issued new account under Visa)
CC told me to call back to paypal and inquire.
Paypal lady told me nothing can be done if cc is unwilling to dispute on my behalf.
I asked if there was enough to fund all transactions due to the cancelled project.
Paypal lady told me that the seller has the funds to refund all. She sees active notes in the account showing that seller is actively working with paypal. She asked me to be patient and said it "will likely take some time"
I don't care if you believe me or not. I am just relaying what the paypal lady told me. Was shee lying to me? no idea...
either way I am in the same position I was before and at the mercy of SkitB issuing the refund since Paypal has already closed my case and my CC says I am out of window for chrageback.
If anyone else wishes to contact paypal, I did the online contact thing where they gave me a number to use for the call to identify me attached to my account. I called the 800 number and gave them the code. They asked me questions and said they would file additional notes under my disputes.

It's not that nobody believes you. I think it's more a question of whether she understood your question. Perhaps she was only suggesting there is enough to cover all of YOUR transactions. Because, do you think she could really calculate how much was ever deposited (especially considering there have been numerous refunds already and new people in line making deposits).

#6132 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Do you have money in on Predator? Just curious...

No, I do not. I do have 3 friends in though. I was so close to pulling the trigger several times. A bit scary now as my wife would be livid and I wouldn't see another new pin for a long time.

#6138 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

You should ask him his thoughts on whether criminal charges would be sought in a matter Like this.

I violated a rule with this?? huh? I feel like a child being preached to on what constitutes good manners. Seemed like a reasonable (and relevant) question to me to a person who is very experienced in licensing for pinball.

#6140 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Not sure suggesting folks start walking up to Roger and asking about this is in any way a good idea.

Why would he be offended? He is one of the nicest and most approachable anbassadors of pinball. He has a lot of knowledge and experience in this area.

Regardless, "rule violation"?

#6394 4 years ago
Quoted from Bax1:

Does anyone know what state and or city he lives in?

Yes, many know exactly where he lives including me. I'll just say he's in Michigan but I can't think of any good reason for wanting to know his specific address. Use the legal avenues available to you for any resolution if you have money involved.

#6398 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Well, one reason is you need to be able to identify him..... especially since it appears he never even registered a business entity.
Want to be able to send a registered letter? yeah, you need a physical address.
Your "Well *I* know, but I cant see why YOU should know" kind of attitude is precisely whats made this thing worse already....

As noted many times in this thread the information is easily found online. Public information. Look who registered the domain name if you need an address for legitimate reasons. But to post it on a public forum that is very heated with a lot of emotion flowing would not be a good idea. Giving it to the "mob" might only push someone to do something that the majority of folks here would find more disturbing than the reason this thread was started to begin with.

#6415 4 years ago

Is there nobody here who knows the gentlemen from Pinball News (Martin?) Can anyone provide an update from him on when the Pinball News follow-up article is expected? Or did they decide against providing any further information? An awful lot of people still left in the dark right now.

#6481 4 years ago

I'm completely confused as to why there is no new information since 9 days ago. Pinball News puts out an article scaring the hell out of pre-order folks and leaving a LOT of unanswered questions (and promising a follow-up in "a few days", no?) The anonymous group also has gone silent which seems to suggest they aren't concerned with keeping folks updated on the latest from what they know (can't they even use their contact at Fox to get an update on legal action if any?). Kevin promises a "swift" refund process as well as quick responses to email questions (in the "order they were received", lol.) But now Kevin apparently cares more about his own butt than he does about the folks who supported him for years. Way to man up Kevin.

I can only imagine how incredibly frustrating this must be for folks with money involved.

#6486 4 years ago
Quoted from nhm:

As has been stated...this is now in the legal phase. There will be no more communication, at all, zilch, none. The forum posts, chatter, etc. is 100% over with. Information will only come out through legal proceedings.

I have never seen any evidence of actual litigation being initiated. None. Even if this is in the "legal phase" there is no reason Pinball News cannot state as much (or the AG for that matter.) Assuming Kevin has stopped responding to all inquiries (again, disgusting if he is only looking out for his own butt now) there were still a lot of unanswered questions that needed to be followed up on. Assuming Kevin has a lawyer who is he and can folks not ask him for official responses in regards to the issuing of refunds or other general questions?

#6488 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

sticking head up briefly before going back into lurk mode...
when people are talking about "refunds" they got, they should make it clear whether they got a "refund", or their card issuer successfully processed a "chargeback"... they are two different things..

Agreed. Although, I'm pretty confident nobody has gotten an official "refund" from Kevin. I've only read of 2 reimbursements (one issued via PayPal and one issued via credit card company Amex.)

#6491 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Both were CC chargebacks.

Ahh, okay. Just out of curiosity, in these situations, I assume the credit card company is issuing the refund from their own pockets? Does that mean they'll go after Kevin (or PayPal?) in order to get reimbursed themselves?

#6503 4 years ago
Quoted from Stones:

I agree with this. After several people have contacted Paypal, Credit Card companies, local authorities, etc, Kevin has "lawyered up."
My fingers are crossed for you guys........ getting your money back.

Again, IF he has lawyered up then someone should be able to identify his lawyer. The lawyer should provide communication in lieu of Kevin. I would think the lawyer could issue statements (where possible) to answer consumer's questions such as the current status of funds.

ALSO, what about Aaron Klumpp? Why is he also not on the hook? He spent 2+ years as half owner/partner of Skit-B as well, no? Has he lawyered up separately? Is Fox not going after him too? If not, why doesn't Martin try getting some answers out of him?

#6543 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

This guy has collected 77 million for his 1/2 built game since 2012.
You can buy a $10,000 "Wing Commander" package now that gives you 44 virtual ships in the game (if it ever gets made).
The release date keeps getting pushed back.....
http://www.wired.com/2015/03/fans-dropped-77m-guys-buggy-half-built-game/

I've read about this before and it's insane. Of course the game is taking forever to get made, the designer is off enjoying the 77 million dollars. It's a good reflection of the demand in video gaming though which is still many, many times more than pinball. Stupid kids.

On another note Vid, as a huge Tosh fan I don't know how I've never seen that particular segment before but I think I just wet myself. Hilarious, lol.

-4
#6549 4 years ago

Instead of an update from PBN on this, the hottest and most relevant story to the future of pinball, we get a story on a "new" game the Scoregasm. Seriously PBN? That's 4 stories and a week and a half since breaking the story and you're yet to report any update?

#6554 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

As you know (since it was posted in response to one of your posts about PBN), Martin has already told someone by email he's working on a follow-up article and that it'll come soon:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/130#post-2352210
But I really don't know what you're expecting here. Do you think PBN is sitting on another goldmine of information not available to the public? And what could PBN possible reveal that would make any difference at this point? Kevin's word cannot be trusted and refunds are not being issued. The only logical course for buyers is to take all possible steps to retrieve their money ASAP, which has been obvious to everyone at least since Kevin "came clean" and admitted the game would never be made. Certainly more quotes from Kevin aren't going to clear anything up - who could believe them?
Meanwhile, enough with the complaints that every PBN headline isn't Predator related. It's "Pinball News", not "Predator Bust News".

It's a bit surreal to me that there isn't a lot more to the story that can and should be reported. This is the biggest story related to pinball I've heard in years. How can you report 1 day there appears to have been this massive fraud committed and then go silent? I highly doubt Kevin lawyered up immediately (I'm sure it took at least a few days for it to sink in for him) and I strongly suspect he communicated with Martin for a couple days after the initial article. I'm also confident that it should be possible to prove one way or another if he has gotten a lawyer. Report it!!! Also, I would think it should certainly be possible to provide an update on whether Fox has filed any litigation in the matter? Is there any reason to think criminal charges are being pursued? Perhaps Martin could have reached out to Aaron Klumpp for his own thoughts on this and provide an update on whether he is now embroiled in this mess as well. I'm sorry, but there is so much that could be reported on right now I'm shocked you don't think there is the need for an update.

#6557 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Surreal? It's actually pretty simple:
Who is there to talk to that has FACTS (more heresay is really not needed)?
1. Kevin. He doesn't talk in the best of times, now that he's being sued, he actually SHOULDN'T talk.
2. Fox. If they are suing Kevin, they aren't going to talk to anyone- even an online pinball news site.
And that's it. All the facts sit with those 2 parties. Both of which are very likely directed by legal NOT to be talking.

Are you reading my posts or just replying with anger?
1) How do you KNOW he is being sued? Where did you get that information? Who is suing him? Fox? You?
2) Considering Fox has been talking to AG for months, you now claim they suddenly will refuse to communicate with AG any further? You're spreading unsubstantiated information.

I listed above that they should also be reaching out to Aaron Klumpp who was owner and business partner in Skit-B for years. What is his relation to this mess now? Has he refused to comment? Does he have a lawyer? Is he being sued? All you are doing is speculating on a couple of things. I just want to hear the real story. FACTS.

#6559 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Are you reading your own posts? - btw- I'm not angry at all- just not hysterically claiming this story is the "most important in the history of pinball"
Ok, back to reality:
I said "IF" Fox is suing SkitB... since he has ALLEGEDLY ignores a C&D, that's seems like a possibility.
And I believe multiple people here have indicated they either already have or are in the process of going after him legally..... so -it's not much of a stretch.
Even if individuals don't, with all the chargeback activity, Kevin might be seeing some correspondence from the credit card companies that are already paying off for his fraudulent behavior...
So, while there *IS* some conjecture there, I think its a safe bet that there will be some lawyers involved here... maybe more than "some."

Please don't misquote me. I stated "the biggest story related to pinball I've heard in years". I think that's very much true and many would agree.

You only said "IF" in your second point. In your first point you stated "now that he's being sued".

I have not seen one person on here confirm they have initiated any legal action against Kevin. Not one. I saw one or two comment that they were looking to file a criminal complaint, that's it.

Again, bottom line, there is a LOT to this story that PBN could and should be reporting on. I can't imagine a legitimate news organization reporting on something like the Bernie Madoff scandal one day and the next day saying "well, he's got a lawyer now so there is no more to the story".

#6564 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Yeah... lol- thats not all you said...I was referring to THIS:

lol....

Now i KNOW you are just making a "April Fools" post!
Kevin = Bernie Madoff?
PBN = a news ORGANIZATION?
You got me.... well player sir.... for a moment I thought you were nuts, now I see it as a joke.

First, yes, I think this event will absolutely impact the future of pinball. Forget another new boutique coming out asking for pre-order dollars. Forget DP asking for pre-order dollars on game #2. In fact, I sure hope JJP has turned the corner on their mounting debt or else they may need to ask for pre-order dollars on game #3 and I'll tell you right now I'm very doubtful of just how solvent their business truly is.

Did I say Kevin was Bernie? No. However, many of the folks involved here do not have tens of millions of dollars like the clients of Bernie Madoff did. I believe this has brought significant anxiety to many involved. Personally, if I was involved my anxiety would only be made higher right now by the complete lack of information and reporting.

Does Martin not consider himself a reporter? Does the AG group think they have no responsibility to continue providing information at this point?

-4
#6566 4 years ago

LASTLY .. if YOU don't need any more information provided to you then what the heck are you doing here?? What more are you expecting to get from this thread? I keep coming back looking for new information or updates. What's your problem with all of the personal attacks?

#6578 4 years ago

Facts: There is zero pending (or closed) litigation that has been filed in Michigan either against Skit-B (or SkitB) or even Kevin Kulek directly. None. Free search here:
http://courts.mi.gov/opinions_orders/case_search/pages/default.aspx

The are zero federal cases opened (or closed) against Skit-B, SkitB, or Kevin Kulek. I signed up for a Pacer account and paid for the searches. Nothing.

So NO, Kevin is not currently being sued by anyone. If he has hired a lawyer it would be strictly for advice, not to defend himself against anything. <EDIT> Yet.

#6582 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

So you're insisting that PBN immediately run a story saying that it appears Kevin hasn't been sued yet and that we can only guess as to whether he's hired a lawyer? That's not much of a story.

Why are you still trying to gang up on me? Let it go. I'm sorry I thought there should have been a follow-up article by now. It's more than clear you disagree. Got it. Go find someone else to attack.

-4
#6586 4 years ago
Quoted from Pdxmonkey:

I wonder who you are?
You speak of th greatest scandal in pinball history yet your account is less than a month old.

I wonder who YOU are. Wait, no I don't. I could care less. I won't comment again until my account is 6 months old minimum because apparently that is relevant somehow (and apparently the first day someone gets into pinball they were supposed to create an account here?) Real friendly community here.

#6601 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

I'm pretty sure pinchilli is kaneda...

No. No, I'm not "Kaneda" and I do not even know who that is. I made a comment that I really thought PBN should have had an update article by now but apparently everyone here disagrees. I get it. I already apologized once. I don't understand why anyone thinks someone would create a new account for making what I thought was an innocent post. I can't believe the backlash this has created.

#6606 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

People are sensitive when someone becomes so outspoken on a controversial topic being so new to forum. Especially with the vail of secrecy surrounding AG - it raises an eyebrow to many.
I think your questioning PBN is fair. However, everyone really wants to focus on refunds right now and Kevin/his lawyers subsequent action.

Yeah, I hear ya, but I'm just confused how my first post today could be construed as "so outspoken on a controversial topic"? Pretty much every post since then has been me defending the personal attacks. Even after I apologized.

#6656 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

There are three sides to every story. At this point we have heard AGs side, and I still want to hear Kevin's side, and then the third side of the story is the truth, and sits somewhere in between, and hopefully Martin can get us all closer to that truth, but I doubt we will ever really know the whole truth.
Certainly based on the info we do have, including info from Kevin, there seems little to no doubt that Kevin has committed fraud and ultimately he will need to pay the consequences for that. However, I find calling him a scumbag, as some have done to be a little over the top. I don't think Kevin set out to rip people off. I think he thought he could pull this off and obviously that was pretty dumb and naive and I have to think some of those close to him, knew that and they also should be held accountable, since they did nothing to stop it (and I would still like to hear from his original partner Aaron as well, and if the partnership broke up over the licensing issue and he chose to just move on and not go public, then I have an issue with that -- I am not saying that is the case, but that is part of the story we would all like to know).
Lets be honest, had he shipped games on time, he might have pulled this off, but I still believe, since he wanted Skit-B to be an ongoing concern, at some point it would have caught up with him. So, did Kevin defraud 250 or so people, certainly seems so, is Kevin stupid and naive thinking he could pull this off and not get caught, absolutely. However, as I said, I want to hear his side of the story, obviously with his track record on communication and truthfulness, anything he says would have to be taken with three tons of salt, but I'd still like to hear it and I still like to see Martin dig deeper to get us closer to the truth, although I don't think we will ever really know the whole story and the whole truth.
I believe Kevin and Martin have indicated we would be hearing more on this, and getting Kevin's side. Hopefully we will hear that soon, since this continues to drag on far longer then it should and that is clearly not fair to those who have forked over hard earned money.
Of course most important is that everyone gets their money back. I would estimate that Kevin has spent less than $150K, possibly less than 100K so to get the prototype built, purchasing parts he now has on hand (which can be sold off), traveling to shows, etc. That is certainly not an outrageous amount for him to borrow from friends, family, etc. in order to be able to pay back all the money he has collected.

Personally, I think you're greatly downplaying Kevin's deceit and wrongdoing. Good intentions or not, he flat out lied. Repeatedly. I don't care if he thought he could get away with making the games without getting license approval. He knowingly and repeatedly lied to his customers many of whom asked him point blank "Do you have the license"? People never new the risks they were undertaking because of his lies.

As far as funds spent, let's be honest, you have no idea. All you or anyone can do is estimate money spent on what we've seen and been told (pictures of cabinets, parts, etc.) But you have no idea if money was spent traveling the country to shows, or on employees, or even to themselves for that matter. No clue. I guess we'll only know in a few months when we say how many people were refunded money and how much.

#6670 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

I have enough background, experience and knowledge to make an educated guess. Of course, you are certainly welcome to disregard all of that and disregard my estimate.

What does experience have to do with knowing what he spent? Again, how can you possibly know how much he paid to himself or other employees? As I said, you can only estimate what was spent on the parts shown to date, no?

#6677 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

experience is no good eh?
lol- what trait WOULD be useful in making an estimate? Good looks?
Absent PROOF (which is about the scarcest item in this thread), 99% of what's discussed here is educated guessing....
btw, he clearly said he was making an estimate? So whats your problem? For someone who complains incessantly about being "personally attacked" you certainly don't shy away from criticizing others.
On a more positive note: congrats on your 4 week anniversary here on pinside.

What is YOUR problem? Why do you have a hard on for me? I was making one simple point, that there is no way to estimate the money he decided to pay to himself (or other employees) and how much money he used to cover travel expenses over the past several years. Therefore, we have no idea how much money is left.

Quit trying to create drama and start another argument to derail this thread.

#6740 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Fox did not have even the slightest hint about the game, until it was pointed out to them.
Predator had gone to a bunch of shows, and had lots of pictures on the web for years.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion but you make it sound like the only problem here was that he got caught. But he was stealing. Theft of other's IP is not a victimless crime. It's wrong and it's a major problem for studios.

Of course, Pen above points out the even larger issue with Kevin and Skit-B. They never had the ability to build 250 games (and admitted as much.) This wasn't going to end happily no matter what.

-3
#6753 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I certainly wouldn't say they are out-of-the-woods yet.

If anything, I would say JJP is further into the "woods". Considering their second pin was supposed to go so much more smooth it hasn't happened. Originally scheduled for June/July of last year, then pushed back to December (as the movie was pushed back), and now folks are just hoping the game starts shipping in May? That's two and a half years after they started taking pre-orders for it. Taking into consideration the numerous employees they have to pay and the factory costs, how can they not be deep in the red? And isn't there some serious pending litigation against the owner on top of it? I would not sleep well having money tied up with any manufacturer these days.

#6776 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Doing pre-orders is the only way a game like WOZ could be made.

Really? Does Multimorphic have anyone's money right now? Seems to me P3 (whether you like the game or not) is much more innovative and advanced than anything seen before including WOZ.

#6780 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

There may be some who have pre-paid, but you can get on the list without providing any money. Money is due when your game is ready for production. Seems the machine and games are continuing to make nice progress, but not sure of when Gerry things production will be starting.
http://www.multimorphic.com/index.php/p3-pinball-platform/pre-orders#

Yes, agreed, which is what my point was. You don't have to have pre-order dollars in order to build an amazing machine (contrary to what Panzerfreak stated.)

After seeing what has happened here with Skit-b I would be more skeptical of JJP than ever. The fact that they had to take pre-order money on game #2 almost two and a half years before the game will actually ship is a bit scary in my mind. I have a hard time seeing how they're solvent long term. Could be true of DPL too but we'll see how many TBL they sell and how fast they can move on #2.

#6783 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either. Their platform looks very cool and I'm looking forward to playing one of their games. Heck if it turns out to be great I may buy one. However, just visually and feature wise I prefer a game like JJP with a large LCD in the head and more mechanical toys, insert lighting and artwork spread throughout the game. The large display on the P3 playfield prevents mechanical features (as well as artwork) in 2/3 of the game.

You can be critical of the game if you want but the point is they have a fully working (and impressive IMO) prototype and will not take customer's money until they're ready to ship them their game. So it can be done. That fact alone deserves some applause IMO. If I had pre-order money with anyone else right now I'd be asking for a refund ASAP until the game was ready to be shipped to me (or picked up).

#6837 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Then even if you win, you still might not get paid. What a mess man.

This would be the most frustrating part in my mind. To go through all the work, headaches, and MORE money (for lawyers, court fees, travel, whatever) and in the end you may still not get anything back. Because ultimately, I don't see how Kevin avoids declaring personal bankruptcy.

#6881 4 years ago

Did I completely miss folks discussing here the AG group's response to posts on here? I just now noticed on their Wordpress page that they put out another update back on April 1 (apparently) responding to several posts from this thread and officially declaring they are done and won't comment again. Or was this discussed in another thread?

Over and Out
APRIL 1, 2015 ~ LEAVE A COMMENT
Everybody knows what they need to know. They got what they came here for. Site views here are down to less than 30 views a day, the last 7 days. Just so everybody knows. It is what it is. There’s obviously not really anything more to be said.

For those looking for “more”, it’s up to Kevin to provide that information. Frankly, it was always up to Kevin: From the moment he knew of any fragment of trouble in his path, he should have informed his investors. It was never the responsibility of third parties, such as us or Pinball News. However, in the absence of trying to get Kevin to fix things, and/or come clean to the public – we did our duty to inform in the end anyway, since he failed to.

This does not mean ongoing sleuthing (at least on our part. PBN may vary) as we were merely a source for the story. Not the only source, but the primary one. If one were to use an analogy, Martin Ayub would be the position of Glenn Greenwald, and we would be the Edward Snowdens. Except Martin is providing the information gathered (from us, other industry pros, key sources for validation, and Kevin Kulek himself) without revealing the sources. That is the key pact between a journalist and his sources. We’re not looking for fame, nor the obvious backlash from some. Truthfully, Fox carried the torch against Kevin – not us – and we were simply kept in the loop for a long while. Remember, March 10 was the last contact from Fox, and it’s been that way ever since.

In closing, to answer a few people still seemingly bent on revealing and roasting our asses:

["I still haven’t seen any hard evidence proving anything the anonymous group has said."]

You don’t have to. Martin took care of all of that for you. He has all his vetting done, and if he’s published it, it’s a done deal. Precisely why we stuck to the path of Pinball News. Any other unvetted avenue for messaging, and the entire thing would have remained up for speculation and enough time had been wasted already. Pinball News was like using the “New York Times of the hobby”. Revealing Kevin’s truth on PinSide or a solo blog site would have been like using YouTube Comments.

["Why stay anonymous at this point? My own feeling is they don’t give two shits about the community."]

Pretty much because of that second sentence. Plus dozens of others who are dying to go down an entirely irrelevant side road and debate us and our character. As stated in the very first article – who we are is irrelevant. The information we found was all that needs to be discussed and acted upon. We refuse to become part of a sideshow discussion – and after seeing the things said after publication, we are steadfastly glad we made that decision in the very beginning. We were going to eventually reveal ourselves in time… but that idea has since been squashed. Squashed hard.

["I need to know the people we are talking about here and their character."]

No you don’t. You simply don’t. Our published information rests on its facts, and it’s facts alone. It’s been vetted, it’s been published. Take it or leave it. We can’t do much more than that. We’re not looking for psychiatry or analysis on us as people. Complete tangent totally off the tracks of what matters in this issue.

["For all we know its a group of cons."]

If you think the accusations of cons can get past Martin at PBN, and cons (who are making shit up) can somehow make Kevin Kulek (in his own statements) admit the shutdown and refund of his entire project, then we need to know precisely what we have told everybody that doesn’t add up to the obvious Predator project behaviors of the last 6 months, and the eventual recent conclusion. To do all this, all to be a bunch of bullshit? Again, the tangents are becoming sideshows just to fill blog postings and keep threads going.

["If we are going to sue] we need some hard evidence, and it would help to get that from the people that brought this to light."]

If things get to the point between lawyer(s) and plaintiff(s) going after Kevin, then it’s not up to us to do the legwork for the attorney(s). We provided the name of the senior counsel at Fox. Have your lawyer(s) call him for evidence. Just remember the limits of our role. Far smaller than folks are suggesting. PBN did 10X the work and research we did. We were merely the seed. We provided a few key pieces of the puzzle, provided first-hand solid evidence (which PBN will keep on hand). PBN gave the issue fairness and balance with countless olive branches to Kevin Kulek to fix things, respond, answer questions, and/or come clean. Way more than we would have. It burned up a few months, but there was that glimmer of possible hope that sustained Martin’s desire to see the project succeed. Some are upset with the delay, most understand the reasons why time had to be given.

This will be the last posting from us on this matter. There’s really nothing more that we can provide anyway. Some will always be baffled and bothered by the whole “Anonymous Group” thing… we recommend just letting it go.

Because as of this last post, we certainly are.

Best of luck to all involved. One of us is still embroiled in this thing, and has taken the path of (what appears so far to be) the successful credit card chargeback route. Will know the true finality in a month or so.

#6886 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I was hard-pressed to read through this self-important dreck -- these guys may have done some useful investigation but they clearly didn't make it through Freshman Composition. But I guess the takeaway is that Edward Snowden is a member of AG? What a scoop!

lol, agreed. I think their post went unnoticed because they can't even seem to update their Wordpress page in a chronological order. They just inserted that update right in the middle of everything else.

So they've declared they now will never reveal themselves. I wonder how long before someone "in the know" decides to reveal it for them.

#6896 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

Oh, I see we're still posting chick pics for some reason. Here, let me contribute.

image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
image-59.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

It took me a minute to realize who the first guy was dressed as but then I realized it's Leeloo from The Fifth Element (laughed my butt off.) Too funny.

#6952 4 years ago

Bill Schuette?? Really? Isn't that the family that makes those delicious popcorn balls? Schuette Balls I believe?

#7214 4 years ago

Guess who's at Michigan Pinball Expo! It's Aaron Klumpp! Hmm. I'm glad he's not in hiding.

#7238 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

That is stunning. Anyone talk to him? Everyone is upset at AG, surely he knew the product was not licensed as well...even before money was sent in.

He appears to just be at MPE with some lady friend. I'm certainly not following him around and have not heard of any issue with anyone confronting him. At least not yet.

#7272 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Your disdain for anyone questioning AG "how" they communicated is pathetic.
Let me suggest if you would like to continue this, bring it to my PM - again. I think we agree to disagree on AG "how" they communicated.
My discussion was with Johnny Oh not you until you jumped in. Again, PM if you want to try again.

PM's sound much needed at this point.

-1
#7317 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

I think Pinside needs to do what Disqus did, and that's removing "Downvoting" as a whole. Only use the "Upvote" which is more productive and does not generate hate between two users. Probably half of the arguments on Pinside happen because of downvoting. Sorry but that's the truth.

Same thing on Facebook, right? You can only "Like" something. No hating.

-14
#7327 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

We need downvoting, because sometimes people give tech advice that is totally wrong.
You've got to downvote before someone damages their game.

Then leave the "disagree" option for technical forums only?

#7410 4 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

I have an update. Just got off the phone with a midland deputy and gave him my personal info (had contacted him last week). He mentioned that he was going over to visit Kevin and his lawyer in the next 1/2 hour. The deputy will contact me in the next day or two to let me know what happened.

That's the best update we've had in weeks! At least that confirms he has a lawyer and at least we know law enforcement is not just sitting on this. Thanks for the update.

16
#7422 4 years ago

This statement is ridiculous:

"We did contact Fox initially, and they had given us, like…. I don’t really know how to say it, it’s almost like, how to do this under fair use kinda thing."

I seriously cannot even believe he is not owning up to his deception. He never told anyone "we're within the bounds of fair use". He never said that. He only said "we have the license." It's such BS for him to try and frame this like he just never saw it coming. Is he delusional?? Did he not make statements after MPE in 2014 that they had to make changes to playfield artwork due to Fox's concerns?!? WHO EXACTLY AT FOX WAS GIVING YOU FEEDBACK/APPROVAL ON YOUR ARTWORK???? Please give the name of a person you were in direct contact with approving anything. It's just still so surreal to me. I wish Martin would have hit him much harder with quesitons.

19
#7432 4 years ago
Quoted from Xerico:

While I do not believe he was a crook who had the intention of scamming Fox, the buyers or anyone else, I do believe he has proven himself unfit to run any type of pinball manufacturing operation.

He may not have started out like that but it is exactly what it turned into. He has not owned up to numerous LIES and exaggerations he knowingly made. In early 2014 around Michigan Pinball Expo I specifically recall him making statements that playfield artwork had to be changed due to requests from Fox. Who exactly were those requests coming from? Who exactly was reviewing anything? He has cornered himself now and any person in on this should go back through every update email from him and look for exactly these inconsistencies in his story. All fantastic evidence for a case.

#7452 4 years ago

I wish Martin would have asked him if he ever bothered actually setting up a corporation. I know we don't yet know just how bad this is, but at least it doesn't sound like the worst case scenario where he did incorporate, paid himself a salary with everyone's money, and now would declare bankruptcy of the company.

#7454 4 years ago
Quoted from asay:

I've summed up the article for everyone:
skitb.png (Click image to enlarge)

Lol, awesome. I can just imagine Kevin's lawyer being like "Umm, that's really the story you want me to argue for you? You just simply thought you had permission?"

11
#7488 4 years ago

Honest question, can the mods lock Skit-B's (Kevin's) Pinside account? Or is there another way to prevent him from scrubbing (editing) all of hist posts? (If he hasn't already, but I doubt it.) I'm sure all of his comments on here can be used against him in a lawsuit. In this thread in particular I'm seeing a lot of claims such as "officially licensed".

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread

I'm not sure how Kevin hearing a "here is what is considered fair use of IP" translated into "officially licensed." He just cannot claim ignorance there. No jury or judge in the world would believe it.

#7500 4 years ago
Quoted from blondetall:

When someone recently (mistakenly) said that Kevin was deleting posts, I personally went in and locked any thread started by Kevin. At the time it was showing that he hadn't logged in since early December and I couldn't find any blank posts, so I checked with Robin concerning his posts in other threads or his account in general. Robin doesn't want to lock the account on the off chance that Kevin actually comes here to post something, but nobody (but mods/Robin) can completely delete posts anyway. The only thing that can be done is editing and removing the text but the post box remains, PLUS the servers have back-ups so it wouldn't truly be deleted anyway. So... we're all good for now if he does try something.

Good to know, thanks for the explanation.

#7504 4 years ago
Quoted from BackFlipper:

I have heard this before - that Kevin has not logged in since December. I would bet anything that he has read every single post in this thread. He just isn't logged in. He may have even created a new account. He is stupid...but he took $1Million from people here. He is building a defense based on every comment here. Be careful how much information you give him on this very public forum.

Based on his comments in this article alone about not understanding why everyone is so angry with him. That sure sounds like evidence to me that he is reading everything here. Where else would he get that idea from, right?

#7518 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

It could end up being the smartest thing he has done.
If he is scared about the criminal aspects of all of this he needs to come off as someone who didn't know better and lacked criminal intent for his actions...he probably rightly feels the civil court judgments are less a danger than picking up bars of soap...

Ignorance is rarely a good defense. The "was that wrong?" defense does not work.

#7571 4 years ago
Quoted from Cobra99:

I have an update. Just got off the phone with a midland deputy and gave him my personal info (had contacted him last week). He mentioned that he was going over to visit Kevin and his lawyer in the next 1/2 hour. The deputy will contact me in the next day or two to let me know what happened.

Cobra, when you speak to the deputy again please pass along information like what DCFan pointed out here (below). There is clear evidence of intent to deceive based on numerous comments Kevin has made over the past few years. This is criminal. If the deputy/detective needs more evidence please tell folks here.

Quoted from DCFAN:

RE: Skit-B's latest Pinball News propaganda.
Lies, damn lies. He specifically said getting the rights to the song was the most expensive part. I am forced to believe he never actually paid for the song rights either (i.e. he likely never made a financial deal to obtain the rights to use the song "Long Tall Sally" in his pinball machine). 1:24:45 of the podcast:

#7621 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

Seriously now...after all of this whining nobody has yet contacted an investigator at the Midland Police Department, State Police, County Sheriff department or State Attorney General yet? I don't know where Kevin lives, or I would post the phone number of the law enforcement agencies who would be involved.
SOMEONE has to make the original criminal complaint in this matter and then post the name and phone number of the investigator who will be in charge of this case so that he can contact the victims and begin his investigation. And the caller has to be someone who was a victim of the fraud. There seems to be a lot of smoke being blown here and a lot of finger pointing but NOBODY seems to have made an effort to contact the law enforcement agency who will ultimately be conducting the investigation.
Anybody threatening with a lawsuit is just wasting his money and spinning his wheels. This is a criminal matter and it cannot proceed until the victims come forward to the agency who will doing the prosecution. You pay taxes which pay for the prosecutor, its does not cost you any money to prosecute other than the postage you might spend mailing copies of receipts, emails etc to the investigator.
So what is all this BS about if nobody here has the stones to begin the process of prosecution? Is everyone still waiting for the tooth fairy to put a refund check under their pillow tonight? Many people have been defrauded, yet nobody chooses to do anything about it except complain to each other?
Wake up people. And when you find out which agency is going to be handling it post the information here so that everyone can get their complaint and fact sheet to the same central authority.

At least one person (Cobra) has confirmed they did contact the Midland MI police department and spoke with a Deputy who was going to Kevin's home yesterday to talk with him and his attorney. We don't know what came of that yet. Others have asked for the phone number of the officer there which was given so I assume others have contacted them as well.

#7654 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

Oof. Go to about 1:19:15. Kevin discusses the license for EoD, then they ask him about his experiences with the Predator licensing. Knowing what we do now, it's pretty clear he was lying straight through his teeth without skipping a beat. He discusses artwork that was rejected by Fox, and working with a contact at Fox on an ongoing basis.
At about 1:23:30 he talks about doing an unlicensed theme. He says that Skit-B might do an unlicensed theme once they've graduated from the mantle of 'boutique' maker to a real producer of games, but that an unlicensed theme at such an early stage would make it look like they were "just cheap and didn't want to pay for licensing."
At 1:24:30 he talks about working for several weeks to get the license for Long Tall Sally, and says it was one of the most expensive aspects of the machine.
He's a very convincing liar.
http://www.pinheadz.com.au/podcast/ppp003-pinheadz-pinball-podcast-ep3-the-greatest-v-the-newest/

Wow. Do not know what to say beyond that. It is just surreal to me that he would try and spin this as being completely innocent and was just blindsided by this.

Anyone talking to the Midland MI police need to point them to this video and these specific references as the smoking gun on whether there was intent to defraud.

#7692 4 years ago
Quoted from Ozzie:

Did anyone talk to his former business partner at the expo? Didn't the business partners wife or somebody connected to him post on this thread alluding to the reason he left (can't remember)? Remember, there was no legal entity as far as anyone has been able to discover, his business partner would generally have individual liability as much as he would.
If I had money in on the project, I would be concerned about how much has been spent and where was I in line for getting a refund. Those outside the credit card chargeback are essentially looking at sharing the losses from any spent money unless he refunds some fully and some partially or not at all
Good luck.

His business partner and friend, Aaron Klumpp is not married. I'm not aware of anyone approaching him about Skit-B at expo. No specifics about why he left have been posted but I do know he and Kevin had a bit of a feud. Some things were said that caused a falling out. Whether there were disagreements with how things were being done with Skit-B that fanned the flames I'm not sure.

I do agree with all of your listed concerns on where money may have gone. There is just no knowing until everyone gets money back which obviously isn't happening because of anything Kevin is doing. I'd also add that I know Kevin's wife had purchased plenty of new photography equipment for her own side business over the last year or so. Also, after Aaron left Kevin hired at least 1 person (Jimmy) to help him. I have no idea what he was paid and I don't mean to drag him into this because he is a good guy and probably had no more knowledge regarding the lack of license than anyone else. But I'm pretty confident he was paid something.

<Edit> Oh, and also early on (but for quite a while) there was Steve who helped as well (who lived with Kevin for a while too). I'm pretty sure he was doing programming and other misc help. I'm not sure if he was ever paid anything.

#7695 4 years ago
Quoted from swampfire:

I think people should leave the vendors and workers out of the discussion, whether it's minimum wage guys wiring cabs or a company selling cabs or pop bumpers to Skit-B. Discussing a "claw-back" of their earnings is crazy IMHO. These guys had the foresight to get their money up front (hopefully) and they haven't done anything wrong.

Vendors, I agree. But workers? I certainly wouldn't label them guilty but if there is an investigation that is going to happen they should be questioned for what they did know. For the most part these are folks that are/were close friends of kevin's. Not random people who just showed up to do a job and leave.

#7758 4 years ago
Quoted from rommy:

He has been and has an appointment with KKK and his counsel next week. Where Kevin assures him he will,show the detective he has not been lying.
image.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
Non pinball distraction - check!

Has someone provided the Detective with Martin's contact information? It would probably be good if he can get the information of that lawyer at Fox who can confirm whether or not Kevin ever had back and forth communication with someone at Fox.

I would love to be a fly on the wall to see how each of these declarations by Kevin can be innocently explained away. Not to mention, WHERE IS THE MONEY AND WHAT IS LEFT??

#7761 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

So if Kevin somehow he proved he was not lying would he not still have to return funds?

I would think as part of his investigation the Detective would want verification of the money left and where all the rest was spent, no? Depending how much money was moved to Kevin's personal account(s) could be proof towards intent to defraud I would think too.

#7859 4 years ago
Quoted from jonnyo:

It's hard to say, but things which are likely:
1) He's been living off the money for three years, with three kids.
2) He's been to a lot of shows (airplane, hotel, shipping the game, seminar swag)
3) He's purchased a decent amount of items from vendors
4) He may or may have paid a salary to people involved with the project:Aaron K, the Artist, Kathy Kulek
5) He may have paid a lump sum to Fox to get them to go away (or is planning to).
And don't ignore that he was living a pseudo-rock star lifestyle for a couple years traveling to shows. I'd be surprised if there weren't a few steak dinners and strip clubs in the mix.

Oh, the list goes on I think. Wife bought a whole lot of new photography equipment for her new studio and business in the last year (not to mention the new home in her name only.) And traveling to shows? Not only did he fly but it looks like it was a family affair (wife and "employee" in this pic from California Extreme.) Although I doubt any strip clubs on this trip, lol. Oh, and note the advertising display for Skit-B behind them. More money.
SkitB.jpg

#7867 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

Who's the guy on the far left? I swear I saw him at MGC last weekend.

His name is Chris Ward (on the far right in the pic below). I know the one woman of the 2 (on the left) in the picture is Barb Ward. Barb does appear to be Chris's wife. This reminds me of some different Skit-B shirts and attire that have appeared over the past few years. More expenses (albeit minor in the grand scheme of things).
skitb2.jpg

#7870 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

You probably did see him. The two on the left are just friends/Predator buyers. Nice people.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Are you sure about that? Possibly (although as shown, they appear in multiple pictures all together.) They appear to have a personal connection though even with Kevin's wife (on FB).

#7881 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

They don't work for Skit-B, if that is what you mean.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Well, nobody was legally employed by Skit-B obviously because there was never a real corporation created. However, Chris does have the photo below on his public FB page stating "late night of coding with Jimmy and Skit-B". Jimmy being another Skit-B "employee" (good guy). He has several pictures with Kevin (including being on road trips.) So I find that strange. How many bar tabs were paid for by the "company" in payment for coding? This also just happens to be a legitimate opportunity for a boob pic.

Jimmy.jpg

#7905 4 years ago
Quoted from Jetzxi:

and no, I am not related to Kevin. I sometimes wish I could code but I cannot and Rosh.....you know me I was helping Mike pick up that Dr Who from you last year.
I should also add that CAX was an awesome show, for those looking at my pictures on Facebook....those Sequoia tress and the Elephant Lions were the highlight of our trip.
Meeting and hanging out with Ryan Adams was pretty bad ass too!

So you are (or were?) a pre-order on Predator though? Have you managed to get a refund or are you still out money? Have you tried talking with Kevin in the last few weeks?

#7953 4 years ago
Quoted from playernumber4:

Dont' give up yet. The court can appoint an "overserr" to legally take possession of everything everyone owns and sell it at auction, then they split it up evenly.

Hmm, I wonder just how much Sonic the Hedgehog and Duck Hunt would bring at auction. Probably not too much, lol.

#7971 4 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

I called the detective today and received a call back instantly. He told me what to email him and i sent it all right away. This case is real if you haven't contacted him you should do so immediately. The more people who get involved the better.

Did he give you any other update? Is the FBI taking the lead? Is he still planning to meet with Kevin and his lawyer this week? And what day?

#8013 4 years ago
Quoted from Mitch:

Everyone who sent money needs to do this. The only part the detective said he didn't need was the Web Links as he has those already. If your unsure what to send call the detective he's more then happy to talk on the phone and returned my calls promptly.

I have to imagine that many of the pre-order folks shared personal emails with Kevin. Any claims made in those emails (in regards to licensing, your deposit being safe/secure, etc.) can also be used as evidence. I hope everyone takes the time to review their emails and forward those that are relevant to the detective as well.

#8043 4 years ago
Quoted from nintendo:

I said it before, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already contacted by some collectors to buy the Predator pin he has. $30k like TigerLaw said could definitely be in the ballpark, if not more

It would certainly shock me if someone paid that. People paid $20-$25K for Matrix which was actually an awesome game and only a handful were made. I've played Predator. Not so great.

If it does get anywhere close to $30K I'm sure their "Duck Hunt" and "Sonic the Hedgehog" would immediately go up for sale too, lol.

#8047 4 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

People paying 30k for a pin are not paying for gameplay. They are paying for the story...few games have the story this prototype would have.

It's kind of a morbid story isn't it? Maybe it would happen, but just not so sure. Although I do think there is a good chance Kevin will try and sell it at some point. He doesn't seem to be bothered by what he can and cannot do legally.

#8050 4 years ago