(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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#4901 4 years ago

You have to wonder how the REAL manufacturers feel about all this. If I were them of course I would never comment but you have to wonder what they think. After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?

#4902 4 years ago
Quoted from thepita007:

My guess:
Anonymous Group found out the truth
Told their buddies
Worked with Pinball News to create Story
Then decided to tell those within their clique of friends
Said F You to the rest of the pinball hobby until it served their interests
The whole idea of obstruction of justice is absurd to think. They could have posted this day one because no matter what it doesn't change the original problem of no license. This group of self righteous a**holes took it upon themselves to withhold this info for almost 6 months knowing it would screw a lot of pre-order holders out of their money. Awhile letting their buddies know to cut ties, this is why they want to stay anonymous because at the end of the day they fucked a lot of people and don't want to be known for it. I wouldn't mark them as the ones who destroyed predator, I mark them as the ones who fucked the hobbyist who supported predator.
This is a sad day for pinside as several moderators are directly involved and likely will aid in a coverup for the anonymous group.

I understand your anger, but better directed towards the criminal, not the truth tellers.

#4903 4 years ago

Dunno about the claim that Skit-B closed their PayPal account...I just ran his e-mail:

SkitB.jpg
#4904 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

You and Whysnow and Neo can continue to miss the point, that's your prerogative; but the real story is simply:
Kevin lied to everyone from day 1.
He took money under false pretenses.
He owes that money back.
Any other issues are NOISE.

I respectfully disagree.

Priority 1 is finding some remedy for people who are out money. There is no higher priority.

Priority 2 is "Ethics" surrounding the pinball community going forward. Some grey areas for sure with "people who were in the know" before the general population and how it was handled. How do "we" want it handled in the future? Set expectations on accountability.

The "anonymous" email group is like Lebron James "The Decision", but at least he did it himself and did not task Martin or others to spill the beans for them. The noise needs to be addressed lowpeg as well.

#4905 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?

Money that has "vanished" from the pin economy, for certain. Those machines will never be delivered, sold, flipped, people get tired, buy something else.

#4906 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

The immortals part is just about the fun little Pinside titles you have by your name. Addict, guru, immortal, legend, whatever.

Roger that, Aurich. I guess that went completely over my head.

But still think they should have tried be as inclusive as possible with everyone involved. If not to try and get money back...at least be aware of what is going on.

#4907 4 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Chris no way are we misdirecting what Kevin did . But we are saying that most of us know a core group also set out to cause harm. Again kevin bad but this group of guys are proven assholes as well. Called out and plenty of folks know damn well who they are anyway.

You've now proven yourself to be on the same level as Whysnow.

Congrats!

#4908 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I agree, but I don't think for a second, that Kevin was at any time trying to purposely rip off the people supporting him and wanting the game. I really think he just wanted to make it happen and didn't cover all his bases, or didn't have the means to get everything he needed. If he wanted to pull this off, he should have made the games first. Then sold them, as they were ready to go out the door. 30 days max, and all the games would have been revealed, and sold, and done. the issue probably would have never came up, and it would have been under the radar.

Except you are glossing over the whole LYING part.

It's one thing to say 'yeah, these parts aren't licensed... you still want them right?' - vs this guy
07-minister.jpg
Lying about what is actually happening.. what they have.. etc

#4909 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

You have to wonder how the REAL manufacturers feel about all this. If I were them of course I would never comment but you have to wonder what they think. After all, that's a boatload of money that could have been in their pockets, right?

Sure. At least in my case. I was seriously considering Aliens or P3 - latest is not a preorder though. I like the swappable playfield concept. I could have bought Star Trek as well.

#4910 4 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Dunno about the claim that Skit-B closed their PayPal account...I just ran his e-mail:

I mentioned this earlier, but it's standard practice for PayPal to lock an account that spikes in deposits until you can prove you're shipping what you're being paid for.

My guess is all the PayPal money is sitting there, untouched. Kevin couldn't withdraw it if he wanted to. Maybe PayPal will let him refund it after the deadline has passed.

Doesn't mean the account is "closed". I think you can still take payments. Just can't access them. But not 100% sure about the last part, I got mine unlocked as fast as I could when it happened to me.

#4911 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I mentioned this earlier, but it's standard practice for PayPal to lock an account that spikes in deposits until you can prove you're shipping what you're being paid for.
My guess is all the PayPal money is sitting there, untouched. Kevin couldn't withdraw it if he wanted to. Maybe PayPal will let him refund it after the deadline has passed.

I was referring to this post:

Quoted from PinB:

It looks like the first person I spoke to at PayPal gave me a false sense of hope. After calling PayPal back again & speaking to a different Claims rep, they told me that we would need to go through police, small claims court, or another source outside of PayPal. They did tell me that Skit-B's PayPal account was shut down some time ago. That partly explains why we haven't been able to get refunds over the last few months.

I guess we need to know what 'shut down' means....does it mean deleted, or frozen?

#4912 4 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I'm surprised they would reveal that info

Quoted from robertmee:

Dunno about the claim that Skit-B closed their PayPal account...I just ran his e-mail:

I'm just stating what the PayPal claims rep on the phone told me the second time I called back. They said that the account was shut down some time ago due to the number of complaints stemming from it. When I pressed for more info, they told me that they couldn't give me any additional info about it or exactly how long ago it was shut down. I'm just relaying what I heard from the PayPal rep.

The PayPal rep I spoke to went on to state that they were into the pinball hobby as well & were asking me about the game in question after I explained the situation to them. Perhaps that was partly why they let it slip out that Skit-B's account was shut down some time ago, even if they aren't supposed to give out that type of info. I don't know. But yeah, I too was surprised that they told me that.

#4913 4 years ago

The fearful situation now is that a third party could take control of the funds and even if Kevin wanted to save a little face and do the right thing, he could be without a course of action to take.

19
#4914 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I don't know either but would it be possible for Fox to have got a sales list and seized the offending pins if they were built? Fox wouldn't pay for them, Kevin would have been on the hook so it's really best these were never built.
I think even though these pins are home use mainly, Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent that as long as you get them made under the radar you are safe to buy unlicensed pins. Note I am not sure what would occur, but even though the buyer is not at fault, I believe they could be ordered to return the pins to Fox for disposal. Note: I'm unclear about this but it's almost reminds me of when you buy a counterfiet SB ticket that's the buyers problem, not the NFLs.

From strictly an IP perspective, you are infringing once you advertise and offer something for sale that is copyrighted, without the (c) owner's permission. The court can order impounding of all infringing goods (e.g. shipped/unshipped Predator games, parts with Predator artwork/logo, etc.). US Code, Title 17, Section 503. It's OK to do a personal retheme for your own use (and not-so-OK if you sell even one of these that has copyrighted/trademarked elements, technically). I cannot fathom what Kevin was thinking...

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I'd be pissed off at Mr X if I wanted this game, because now it probably won't happen.

This is a moronic statement. (not the first from this source, btw.) Why? because, what *if* Predator was made "under the radar" and shipped? Pretty sure someone at Fox would find out eventually. And infringement is infringement. A year or 2 from now, they could sue Kevin/Skit-B, get all sales records thru discovery, and impound all the Predator games. (That means taking them away from all the owners, without *any* compensation.) And once the games were built, there would be ZERO money left, and the customers would definitely be out 100%.

#4915 4 years ago
Quoted from gprotein:

"With all the chaos of the last few days I see it only fitting to remind everyone that I am still here and going through the necessary processes to get everyone what they've asked for. An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to. My endless apologies for what you are all enduring, and you are all paramount in my mind while we expedite a solution to the issues you are all facing currently.
-Kevin"

Lie better!

#4916 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

We had not been able to make any meaningful progress with John.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

well, that's shocking...

#4917 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

I think when a project this large comes through Pinside, the seller should be vetted and pertinent info stickied somewhere. I don't blame Pinside, but a cool head in a position of authority early on would have stopped this. Isn't that one of the things a mod is supposed to be? A hard lesson for all involved I think.

nope... mods are here to make sure we behave... they are under no legal or ethical responsibility for people making decisions...

#4918 4 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I was referring to this post:

I guess we need to know what 'shut down' means....does it mean deleted, or frozen?

SkitB's paypal account is still OPEN. If it was not, you could easily see it by typical the email into a "payment" field. It would be gray and show up as "unclaimed".

However, his paypal account is indeed frozen. All C/S will generally say is "the vendors account is pending additional information they need to provide paypal" or some other vague explanation.

So, he didnt close the account and head for the Cayman Islands months ago. But it also doesnt mean that theres necessarily $0.01 in the account either.

So, I dont think theres much for folks to sleuth from the paypal angle right now.

-28
#4919 4 years ago

Some of you guys act like these SkitB buyers were trying to crowd-source a company developing a drug to save their cancer stricken toddlers.

They get no sympathy from me. Investments based on faith, emotions, or anything else disconnected from reality are for suckers. The truth sucks, doesn't it?

#4920 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Tried and can't figure out how to do it. I am not going to retype it all but here is part that shows that it was personal for them.
"It's almost a treat that yours was in the first 10 and we stopped everything in time"

That's sick and twisted that a fellow Pinsider is taking joy in the fact that someone is now likely out a significant amount of money due to this fiasco. Yes, what Kevin did was totally wrong and deceitful but blowing the whistle doesn't help out many of those that have still have skin in the game. If anything it helps out Kevin as they prevented him from shipping out any machines which may keep the Fox lawyers from going after him.

At this point my guess is that we won't hear anything from Kevin as he's likely searching for a lawyer to help him sort through this miss. Even if he is somehow able to come up with all of the funds to refund everyone 100% he is still open to lawsuits since he defrauded people.-All it takes is 1 person to start a lawsuit and send him to jail. Any refunds from this point forward will likely come with a legal agreement that prevents people from suing him. Hopefully they'll be able to come up with some type of settlement that is agreeable to all parties. If it goes to the Courts I fear it could be a real long while before any kind of resolution is reached.

16
#4921 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

I respectfully disagree.
Priority 1 is finding some remedy for people who are out money. There is no higher priority.
Priority 2 is "Ethics" surrounding the pinball community going forward. Some grey areas for sure with "people who were in the know" before the general population and how it was handled. How do "we" want it handled in the future? Set expectations on accountability.
The "anonymous" email group is like Lebron James "The Decision", but at least he did it himself and did not task Martin or others to spill the beans for them. The noise needs to be addressed lowpeg as well.

OK, well, at least we agree on the #1 point.

I'm not sure how you govern the rest, though. Someone suggested the same for pinside itself, that before it tacitly supports a company here (setting up forums, etc) they should vet the companies themselves. PInside has said "no" thats not how we operate.

So, I think it will be difficult to expect to moderate anonymous emails and hold those more accountable that the forum is willing to do for itself when it recognizes and legitimizes these startup companies.

btw, I think everyone involved and "in the know" should have spoken up sooner:
1 - the anonymous group
2 - Fast Pinball
3 - Pinball news
etc.

Holding the info to "give Kevin more time" or to "build the story into a blockbuster" served no one and potentially increased the harm.

But I will say again, people TRIED to bring this information to light for months and they were criticized as "conspiracy nuts" or "just trying to bring a good man down", etc, etc. You need to ask yourself- how much more evidence would some of the zealots here believe?

Hell, even NOW you see folks like Whysnow and Neo STILL trying to defend Kevin's intentions...

Still, I place this FAR below the evil that Kevin did.

#4922 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

If anything it helps out Kevin as they prevented him from shipping out any machines which may keep the Fox lawyers from going after him.

I was thinking this too

#4923 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

YES! The fact is they're complicit in this. If any of us found out there was no license we would've come here and layed it out in the open...the whole "To catch a Predator" "we are an anonymous group" shitshow was just weird and juvenile. I've been told there maybe a pinball competitor involved, also a Pinsider that's in the entertainment industry, this will taint their motive for ever.

bull.... it's been clear for awhile that there was no license, and you kept repeatedly thumbing down posts that indicated that...

here's something for you: "join reality"... stop looking for other boogeymen, and accept the fact that there is only blame for one person...

#4924 4 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Dunno about the claim that Skit-B closed their PayPal account...I just ran his e-mail:

SkitB.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Try sending $1 and see if Paypal refuses it.

#4925 4 years ago
Quoted from PinB:

The PayPal rep I spoke to stated that they were into the pinball hobby as well

I wonder how big Pinball is in India?

#4926 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

btw, I think everyone involved and "in the know" should have spoken up sooner:
1 - the anonymous group
2 - Fast Pinball
3 - Pinball news
etc.
Holding the info to "give Kevin more time" or to "build the story into a blockbuster" served no one and potentially increased the harm.
Still, I place this FAR below the evil that Kevin did.

Ok, we are aligned again. I think everyone involved should have spoken up sooner - as soon as they learned of it. We are all grown men/women in the community and once we have info can make our own decisions on the rumor or fact right/wrong.

In hindsight, I call bs on "given Kevin more time" to figure something out. TBL shitstorm was as crazy, but they stepped up after the news came out and seem to have salvaged that situation.

Not having the info before others - I have a problem with.

#4927 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Try sending $1 and see if Paypal refuses it.

$1!!?!?!!?!?

I sent $0.25.... went through fine....

As I said before, his account is open but frozen/under review by paypal.

#4928 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

I was thinking this too

Fox might drop the whole thing if Kevin agrees to destroy all the infringing products. It costs a lot to sue someone and Fox probably just wants this to go away. He could have some criminal problems if someone presses charges.

#4929 4 years ago
Quoted from ccotenj:

bull.... it's been clear for awhile that there was no license, and you kept repeatedly thumbing down posts that indicated that...
here's something for you: "join reality"... stop looking for other boogeymen, and accept the fact that there is only blame for one person...

Yeah? I've posted numerous times if they have facts to post it, but they just wanted to wait for the big train wreck.

-3
#4930 4 years ago
Quoted from zr11990:

Someone fill me in so I don't have to read this whole thing. Is the Predator pin going out the window like JPoop? I hope not for you guy's sake.

Quite the opposite. Predator is dead, it seems. JPOP's projects are alive and moving toward completion. There are a TON of differences between the two. Starting, of course, with zero licensing issues from JPOP, and lots more. Sometimes things don't move so quickly when you are producing quality AND doing it on a frugal budget.

#4931 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

Any refunds from this point forward will likely come with a legal agreement that prevents people from suing him. Hopefully they'll be able to come up with some type of settlement that is agreeable to all parties. If it goes to the Courts I fear it could be a real long while before any kind of resolution is reached.

Same worry - unsure about the Paypal account, but Kevin cannot even access his account to refund people, settlement is not going to be fast.

PS: Agreeable in English seems very close to "Agréable" in French, which means "enjoyable". Doubt any of us will find it enjoyable.

#4932 4 years ago

"Kevin you're such a disease!"
73757-8694.gif

tumblr_mce9rmg7IT1qzk2upo1_500.jpg

#4933 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Yeah? I've posted numerous times if they have facts to post it, but they just wanted to wait for the big train wreck.

So, I kind of agree with your point here... but it begs the question:

What EXACTLY are the facts/proof that anyone has?

I was just rereading the pinball news story and while it all seems perfectly plausible, where's the PROOF? Isn't it all just circumstantial and/or hearsay?

Don't get me wrong, I totally believe it, but wheres the hard evidence?

I guess the closest thing would be the supposed phone conversation with the FOX attorney, but if they made the recording surreptitiously, and the lawyer was located in an all-party-consent State (like California IS), they really can't share it.

The "proof" is trying to prove a negative- that Kevin didn't have a license. The only folks that can can PROVE that is Kevin going on the record about it OR FOX going on the record with the allegation. To date, I dont think we've seen either.

14
#4934 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

Yeah? I've posted numerous times if they have facts to post it, but they just wanted to wait for the big train wreck.

paranoia isn't a good thing...

"whistleblowers" are protected in our country (speaking parochially as a us citizen) for a reason... and no, they don't go running out as soon as they have information...

keep on believing that the whistleblowers are the "bad guys"...

it was VERY obvious there was no license quite some time ago... if you chose not to believe that, that is your issue, not the people who blew the whistle...

please do not tell me that you believe that kevin called the number on the back of a dvd case and got to "use anything he wanted from the movie", etc... it should be very obvious to anyone who is a member of pinside that there is just a TAD more to licensing than that...

#4935 4 years ago
Quoted from dantebean:

Once this exploded I said some of you guys would play the "I told you so" or "this is why I am smart and stayed out of this pre-order" game. Lost a lot of respect for some of you guys with no stock in this matter. How dare you try teaching people how to handle losing their money. If you're not in this then just say "good luck" and move on. No need to have a big back and forth with people fighting to get their money back.
For those of you posting on how to contact Paypal and lawyers, thank you. We should be helping and not playing blame game.

Let us not forget something though. Many of those folks who say, "I told you so" are the same ones that had their heads handed to them on a silver platter in days gone past. They were insulted, ridiculed...made to feel like they had no voice in a public forum. It is not fair to make fun of people today....it was also not fair to make fun of people back then!!!!!!

#4936 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

So, I kind of agree with your point here... but it begs the question:

What EXACTLY are the facts/proof that anyone has?

Thanks. I have no respect for Kevin after this..fact. I just have a problem with the way it went down.

#4937 4 years ago

Does anyone have first hand knowledge (FACTS) about how the credit card chargeback process will work through Paypal? Maybe you know someone who works for one of the major banks that could shed more light on the subject.

I would think, best case, the money is held in the Paypal account and Paypal will side with the CC company/buyer. Worst case, Kevin has withdrawn all the money and spent it or moved it to an isolated account. Not sure what happens then. Would the CC deny the claim? Or do they allow the claim since it is legitimate, and have their own team of lawyers who will go after Kevin and his assets.

11
#4938 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Let us not forget something though. Many of those folks who say, "I told you so" are the same ones that had their heads handed to them on a silver platter in days gone past. They were insulted, ridiculed...made to feel like they had no voice in a public forum. It is not fair to make fun of people today....it was also not fair to make fun of people back then!!!!!!

Whistleblowers should be held in the highest esteem. They are the ones going out of their way behind the scenes to bring you the truth. Sometimes it's a difficult truth. It's a shame that there are so few, and it's even worse how they are treated by the most ignorant among us when they actually do bring a hard truth into the light.

#4939 4 years ago

CAN i GET A HITLER VIDEO OR WHAT?

#4940 4 years ago

I just received an email stating all moneys collected will be refunded in a few days

#4941 4 years ago
Quoted from jkdblaze:

I would think, best case, the money is held in the Paypal account and Paypal will side with the CC

If you went through a credit card, the credit card company can override PayPal.

23
#4942 4 years ago
Quoted from mattster:

Some of you guys act like these SkitB buyers were trying to crowd-source a company developing a drug to save their cancer stricken toddlers.
They get no sympathy from me. Investments based on faith, emotions, or anything else disconnected from reality are for suckers. The truth sucks, doesn't it?

The pinball hobby has been full of honest & innovative people. People who have made and/or sold really cool products.. I've sent TONS of money to tons of people I've never met to get great products. On top of that - they've never been "anonymous corporations"...they've always been guys like us. ColorDMD, Pinball Life, Cliffy, etc. The pinball experience has been very cool....and cool has been the norm. So - when "one of us" builds a Predator game and says it's officially licensed - why wouldn't people have trusted him? There wasn't a precedent for a mega pinball scam. To insult them is a douche move.

11
#4943 4 years ago
Quoted from badbilly27:

Ok, now I have to jump in. This Mr X group were seriously f'ing with Hilton based on the emails he was getting and what they were saying to him. There was a strong gloating element in the content which impeded "credibility" of the authors. These "hero's" were acting like asshats to Hilton. Disagree with Hilton's passionate and blind support of Kevin - that's fine, I did to. But Mr X were trying to create a media event and helped FOX first - then brought it to the community. Think long and hard about it.
(And you TX people who keep thumbs downing Hilton when he hits enter on any post - let's keep tabs. Hmm Mr X affiliation? You guys are fixated on Hilton. It's as sick as his blind trust in Kevin. Sorry H.)

Hilton does not need to be treated that way true. But----Hilton has his own issues too. He creates drama where there is none to be. Fact. Check the Shadow thread. A poster asked for responses to what everyone thought it was worth. Many replied...including Hilton. Sooooooo. Hilton goes around singling out any post that signaled a higher value than what he posted. Mine included. In fact his snotty attitude to me was, "Well, why don't you go buy it then if you think it is worth that much"

Again he creates drama where there is none! I hope he and everyone else get there money back. I hope that Pinside threads allow everyone to post fairly. I hope everyone that posts does it in a manner with respect and not to create drama or be snotty. I can only hope

11
#4944 4 years ago
Quoted from MikeS:

All it takes is 1 person to start a lawsuit and send him to jail.

I'm not sure if any of you guys have ever taken someone to court who owes you money.

You win the case, the judge orders the defendant to pay you $3000, the defendant ignores the order and never pays you.

The person does not go to jail because they never paid you....there is no debtors prison.

-

Now if a criminal case is brought against Kevin, then there could be jail time involved, but then Kevin will certainly spend any money he has left on the retainer for a federal criminal attorney.

#4945 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

I just received an email stating all moneys collected will be refunded in a few days

Who sent this e-mail?

#4946 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Is an insanity plea possible?

That's what I'd be pushing for if I was his lawyer.

#4947 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

The person does not go to jail because they never paid you....there is no debtors prison.

True...and you just have to go to court again...

12
#4948 4 years ago
EmailFromKevin.png
#4949 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

I just received an email stating all moneys collected will be refunded in a few days

From who? Kevin? Paypal?

#4950 4 years ago
Quoted from gweempose:

Is an insanity plea possible?

Everyone knows there's no Insanity Clause...

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