(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



Topic Stats

  • 18,272 posts
  • 815 Pinsiders participating
  • Latest reply 9 days ago by Roostking
  • Topic is favorited by 193 Pinsiders

You

Linked Games

Topic Gallery

There have been 1,540 images uploaded to this topic. (View topic image gallery).

Kulek.pdf (PDF preview)
6-pennywise-has-some-nickelback-funny-meme (resized).jpg
will-ferrell-fillwerrel-i-just-fell-down-the-stairs-holding-31512906 (resized).png
pinsiders (resized).jpg
pasted_image (resized).png
194b3475e0440b8112afc0ac4ad5bf0ed0e8ec3db63fb4b6748a4f2e06a9865b (resized).jpg
31A053C2-4495-4E3E-980F-E5ADEA02F1DE (resized).jpeg
IMG_2933 (resized).JPG
beetlejuice-shrunken head (resized).jpg
2716720260_bc8966f6b1 (resized).jpg
D460F55E-AD42-43C6-91EB-B8162A84A094.gif
Screenshot_20190103-214734_Facebook (resized).jpg
Screenshot_20181108-174321 (resized).png
Fife Appeal Sept 24 2018.pdf (PDF preview)
cat ooo 2.gif
7332539.attach (resized).jpg

Topic index (key posts)

86 key posts have been marked in this topic, showing the first 20 (Show topic index)

There are 18272 posts in this topic. You are on page 97 of 366.
22
#4801 4 years ago

I think your leaving out the big point here. If Kevin decided to make 250 pins and sneak it pass the license holder, great. Be a "punk rock" outfit. But before you take $750,000 you have to tell the buyers that. Its that simple, you have to be honest. This isn't buying your self a couple weeks to get things done it's fraud. And blaming people that believed him? Well thought out.

26
#4802 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Oh I let Martin know of my disgust at his decision to keep quiet. Y'know I even asked that guy directly for information and he gave me the brush off. As far as I'm concerned he's no friend of the pinball community.

Martin was a true journalist. He worked through his due diligence until he was satisfied enough to put the article online. He also tried to save the project with the connections he had, knowing anything else would kill it.

#4803 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Really, how is this different? Company wants to make a product. Numbers arn't working on paper. Budgeting coordinator crunches some numbers to make it work. They make a prototype. Show it to investors. Investors invest. Production starts. Money gets used. Half way through they are out of money and can no longer make the product. How is this different. In this case instead of lying about manufacturing costs, he's lying about licensing issues. Which would have put him way over budget i'm sure. It's pretty much the same damn thing in a nutshell.
Anyone have that article someone posted recently on that camera instagram company that showed you how to lose 500k in a kickstarter company?

Its different because lies were told in order to obtain funds. Aka Fraud.

11
#4804 4 years ago

These are just some ramdom thoughts about this issue. I have been in the film and publishing business for more than
35 years.
I feel bad for anyone that may lose their money.
Does this type of thing happen all the time? Yes it does.
Was there a possibility Kevin could have gotten away with making 250 machines without Fox knowing? Yes.
Don't forget, Fox had no idea what was going on and that was after the machine was featured at various conventions
all over the country AND all over the web.
There ARE mods all over the place that have no license. They are all bought. And, yes, even the Aurich Star Trek
translite.
The starship design and image has a copyright. There are Tron mods, T2 has plenty, Elvira, etc, etc.
In film this happens all the time as well. Someone will make a Frankenstein model kit, or poster and sell it at conventions.
They didn't get permission, but went under the radar. Many times the IP owners don't do anything because it would cost much more to sue them then what they'd get.
...I am in no way excusing Kevin for what he's done. Some things he told me at the time were true. He was talking with Fox to try and make things right. He did ask Roger Sharpe for help. Too little, too late.
...the only thing Kevin has to figure out now is how to refund whatever money is left. I agree, if lawyers get involved, there might be nothing left. I think most people here would be happy getting 80% of the money back and not going through a lengthy and costly court drama.
...again, I'm just rambling over a cup of coffee. One of my friends is a copyright attorney, when he gets back from vacation, I'll run all this by him for his thoughts. Bottom line: Kevin has to get his accounting together and find out exactly how much is left to distribute. And fast. I think he should give refunds before Fox gets it.

#4805 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

I'd be pissed off at Mr X if I wanted this game, because now it probably won't happen.

We will find out for sure. But from what we hear so far it never was going to be done.

#4806 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Martin was a true journalist. He worked through his due diligence until he was satisfied enough to put the article online. He also tried to save the project with the connections he had, knowing anything else would kill it.

So he couldn't have given a quiet 'heads up' to some people? I'm sure those closer to him knew all about it.

He should have had the foresight to realise that it would ultimately cost people hard earned money should he say nothing after finding out there was no license in the first place.

#4807 4 years ago

Does anyone SERIOUSLY think refunds would be issued at this point?

-3
#4808 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Its different because lies were told in order to obtain funds. Aka Fraud.

Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.

#4809 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

...the only thing Kevin has to figure out now is how to refund whatever money is left. I agree, if lawyers get involved, there might be nothing left. I think most people here would be happy getting 80% of the money back and not going through a lengthy and costly court drama.

That's only half of what he needs to do in my mind. If he says 80% (or whatever) of the funds are left, he better darn well show exactly where every dime was spent. Because keeping 15K (out of 700K or 1 million dollars) aside for himself to buy a new house (oh, just a random example) would be very easy for him to hide at this point.

#4810 4 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

We will find out for sure. But from what we hear so far it never was going to be done.

If it was never going to be done and no intention on being done, that's a different story. Then it would be intentionally screwing everyone over.

#4811 4 years ago

Welp... CC company can't do shit for me. They said they can't dispute anything past six months.

#4812 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.

Yeah I read your example. You are mistaken. A company that started out legit, gets into trouble then 'fudges' the numbers to carry on working is not the same as a company starting with an out an out lie to gain investment.

-1
#4813 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Yeah I read your example. You are mistaken. A company that started out legit, gets into trouble then 'fudges' the numbers to carry on working is not the same as a company starting with an out an out lie to gain investment.

They fudge the numbers before the company even gets started. After prototype is made, the lies are out to get the investors to invest to start the company. You did not read my example correctly. The order you described to me is not what I said.

10
#4814 4 years ago
Quoted from Russo121:

Yeah I read your example. You are mistaken. A company that started out legit, gets into trouble then 'fudges' the numbers to carry on working is not the same as a company starting with an out an out lie to gain investment.

You're wasting you're breath on Neo.

#4815 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

They fudge the numbers before the company even gets started. After prototype is made, the lies are out to get the investors to invest to start the company.

So kinda like a Ponzi scheme then?

#4816 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Who wants to lay odds on Stern picking up the actual Predator license now that this whole kerfuffle proved interest in the game? heh!

It's a good "evil fantasy" thought. In real life, Gary is smart - VERY smart. Smart enough not to touch This Pigsty with a 100 foot pole.

Why would he? Dozens of other appealing licenses are available without jumping into this cesspool - and he has proven well-capable at obtaining legitimate licensing.

#4817 4 years ago

Cause he could probably sell 400 right away?

#4818 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

Bottom line: Kevin has to get his accounting together and find out exactly how much is left to distribute. And fast. I think he should give refunds before Fox gets it.

bingo Ted...some refund will kill some of the witch hunt and let us move on with life...

#4819 4 years ago

I think what he is saying is it is like stock because this situation is similar that you cannot touchy feely. Like a start up company, there is no product out yet, no manufacturing facility to go drive by and look at. Jeesh maybe it is worse. Many star-ups at least have a front office with a hot chick you can walk into and grab a cup of coffee. This basement gig Kevin had going did not have that Anyway, people got screwed and yes it is different and there are Consumer Protection laws for this type of thing and stock/equities do not have that. Like a stock though there is a point when red flags sometimes go up and if you are not acknowledging them then you watch your investment go down...sometimes down the drain and BK. It is like a stock in that regard. You have to be objective and take the emotion out of it in order to avoid the disaster like this. I really feel bad many were crushed (just like a bad stock) and had game rooms pretty much already reserving a spot for this pin. Some had all the accents too! There seems to be zero chance this pin gets built. I hope all recover funds. I have never ripped off an investor in my career. I hope Kevin does the same thing!

#4820 4 years ago

plus, I'd think if he gives people their money back, it will do better for him if it goes to court. Wouldn't look like he was trying to scam anyone.

#4821 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

plus, I'd think if he gives people their money back, it will do better for him if it goes to court. Wouldn't look like he was trying to scam anyone.

I thought the exact same way....even if its not the full amount..

#4822 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

I'll be honest, I never thought it was a great game. I didn't care for how it flipped (those center targets were just annoying)

Well, any game with center targets is going to be difficult because 9/10 times that's where your average player is shooting at.

F-14
BSD

^^ Also lethal center targets when hit. Some probably find those above games too hard or annoying as well.

32
#4823 4 years ago

Wasted a bit of work time this morning reading the comments and the articles.

A big problem I have is with all the anonymous story seeding. Why did anonymous have to protect Fox instead of alerting all the pre-owners? How were they beholden to Fox and not pre-owners? Oh, Fox told you to sit tight? Ok, because suddenly Fox is the CIA and you have to listen to them? Fox was only out to protect Fox's interests of course.

Beans should've been spilled once it was learned the license didn't exist.

12
#4824 4 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

These are just some ramdom thoughts about this issue. I have been in the film and publishing business for more than
35 years.
I feel bad for anyone that may lose their money.
Does this type of thing happen all the time? Yes it does.
Was there a possibility Kevin could have gotten away with making 250 machines without Fox knowing? Yes.
Don't forget, Fox had no idea what was going on and that was after the machine was featured at various conventions
all over the country AND all over the web.
There ARE mods all over the place that have no license. They are all bought. And, yes, even the Aurich Star Trek
translite.
The starship design and image has a copyright. There are Tron mods, T2 has plenty, Elvira, etc, etc.
In film this happens all the time as well. Someone will make a Frankenstein model kit, or poster and sell it at conventions.
They didn't get permission, but went under the radar. Many times the IP owners don't do anything because it would cost much more to sue them then what they'd get.
...I am in no way excusing Kevin for what he's done. Some things he told me at the time were true. He was talking with Fox to try and make things right. He did ask Roger Sharpe for help. Too little, too late.
...the only thing Kevin has to figure out now is how to refund whatever money is left. I agree, if lawyers get involved, there might be nothing left. I think most people here would be happy getting 80% of the money back and not going through a lengthy and costly court drama.
...again, I'm just rambling over a cup of coffee. One of my friends is a copyright attorney, when he gets back from vacation, I'll run all this by him for his thoughts. Bottom line: Kevin has to get his accounting together and find out exactly how much is left to distribute. And fast. I think he should give refunds before Fox gets it.

Most of this rings hollow, Ted; considering Kevin traded your respect in this community for more "time". Even now you're defending him by saying "some things he told me at the time were true." Everything after the fact he lied in the very beginning about having a license is immaterial. The ship was never sailing true from the get go.

#4825 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Really, how is this different? Company wants to make a product. Numbers arn't working on paper. Budgeting coordinator crunches some numbers to make it work. They make a prototype. Show it to investors. Investors invest. Production starts. Money gets used. Half way through they are out of money and can no longer make the product. How is this different. In this case instead of lying about manufacturing costs, he's lying about licensing issues. Which would have put him way over budget i'm sure. It's pretty much the same damn thing in a nutshell.
Anyone have that article someone posted recently on that camera instagram company that showed you how to lose 500k in a kickstarter company?

You are correct and this has been proven many times. Examples are the Segway...the De Lorean and even the Tesla. All convinced others they had enough on paper. Ultimately they did not. They had to solicit new and increased funding to finish. It is likely that is what Kevin requires as well. Will people here invest more or will new investors "Chip in" to get this done??? That is the ultimate question!

#4826 4 years ago
Quoted from PoMC:

Wasted a bit of work time this morning reading the comments and the articles.
A big problem I have is with all the anonymous story seeding. Why did anonymous have to protect Fox instead of alerting all the pre-owners? How were they beholden to Fox and not pre-owners? Oh, Fox told you to sit tight? Ok, because suddenly Fox is the CIA and you have to listen to them? Fox was only out to protect Fox's interests of course.
Beans should've been spilled once it was learned the license didn't exist.

This was my only question in the whole matter.......why side with Fox over people invested?

-2
#4827 4 years ago
Quoted from foureyedcharlie:

This was my only question in the whole matter.......why side with Fox over people invested?

To me at this point this is the only question pending. We need these guys own up to what they did. Why hide?

#4828 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Did you even read my example? it's the same damn thing. In my example. the project coordinator fudges the numbers to make production work. (basically lying about the cost of production to investors) . I've seen it before. I've seen companies fail because of this exact same thing. They think they can figure it out or find another way down the road, and it ends up killing them in the end.

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?

SoundBlaster
Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies

-2
#4829 4 years ago

Someone fill me in so I don't have to read this whole thing. Is the Predator pin going out the window like JPoop? I hope not for you guy's sake.

-1
#4830 4 years ago
Quoted from foureyedcharlie:

This was my only question in the whole matter.......why side with Fox over people invested?

Because Fox knew who they were and the owners simply know their usernames at best?

-20
#4831 4 years ago
Quoted from foureyedcharlie:

This was my only question in the whole matter.......why side with Fox over people invested?

I am on a phone and not able to paste, but it was a personal matter for them and they had clear desire to leave preowners holding the stick.

they sent me an email yesterday saying they were happy they stopped this before the first batch went out becuase they wanted the first group to get the short end of the stick. They also were happy that people will learn a lesson. The annonymous group has been very vindictive and opted to side with fox rather than the preowners because they wanted to make sure this has as much impact as possible. I hope someone smarter than I can get to the bottom of whomthe annonymous group is as I think it will show that they were not merely an annonymous player that cared about the community.

-1
#4832 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?
SoundBlaster
Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies

because i'm sure I got their panties in a wad earlier, and now they are just on a thumbs down rampage without really thinking about or reading what i'm saying.

19
#4833 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

To me at this point this is the only question pending. We need these guys own up to what they did. Why hide?

really? the ONLY question pending?

Well, just spitballing here, but Im thinking theres a FEW other questions pending:

1. WTF Exactly is Kevin doing right now? Whats he waiting on?
2. How much money does Kevin have left
3. When are the pre-payers going to get some/any/all back

I know you are on a crusade to expose the anonymous because that is SUPER important, but (maybe its just me) thats all FAR FAR secondary to resolving the money Kevin took.

#4834 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am on a phone and not able to paste, but it was a personal matter for them and they had clear desire to leave preowners holding the stick.
they sent me an email yesterday saying they were happy they stopped this before the first batch went out becuase they wanted the first group to get the short end of the stick. They also were happy that people will learn a lesson. The annonymous group has been very vindictive and opted to side with fox rather than the preowners because they wanted to make sure this has as much impact as possible. I hope someone smarter than I can get to the bottom of whomthe annonymous group is as I think it will show that they were not merely an annonymous player that cared about the community.

Paste this email.

#4835 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

To me at this point this is the only question pending. We need these guys own up to what they did. Why hide?

I think it was this guy.

thisfuckingguy.jpg
#4836 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Besides that, pinball has a history of being the bad boy hobby. The rough crowd. Crowds that walk across the street WITHOUT a cross walk. Yea, that's the shit i'm talking about. Playing games in a smoky underground club, and having the bartender pay you out because you got the match. Oh yea, that's the shit. We are bad boys. We buy shit we like regardless of license. Damn straight.

Sounds very "punk rock" to me.

#4837 4 years ago

Can someone drive to Kevin's house and help him with the refunds please.

#4838 4 years ago

On the Pinheadz Pinball Podcast #3, Kevin specifically talks about the licensing of the song "Long Tall Sally".

http://www.pinheadz.com.au/podcast/ppp003-pinheadz-pinball-podcast-ep3-the-greatest-v-the-newest/

He says:

-----------

"One of the most expensive parts of the Predator machine is Long Tall Sally."

"We had to make that deal well before anybody had ever helped out, you know, with deposits or anything. That just had to happen and I worked a lot of long weeks to make sure it did."

-----------

Did he really get this license?

-1
#4839 4 years ago

Tried and can't figure out how to do it. I am not going to retype it all but here is part that shows that it was personal for them.

"It's almost a treat that yours was in the first 10 and we stopped everything in time"

#4840 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Kevin must be sleeping in this morning?? No new email from him yet? I can't believe he wrote last night that "he's still here" and "working through the process". This is clearly someone who does not care about processes much less accountability.

I got that email from Kevin and it was time stamped at 2:35 AM. That tells me he was having a very sleepless night and with a lot more to come.

In my opinion Kevin is scared right now and justifiably so. His actions in the next several days should be interesting.

#4841 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I know you are on a crusade to expose the anonymous because that is SUPER important, but (maybe its just me) thats all FAR FAR secondary to resolving the money Kevin took.

If you cared about the people's money you would have PM'd the info when you found out, ( you know anonymously)...Don't try to play this off.

#4842 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

because i'm sure I got their panties in a wad earlier, and now they are just on a thumbs down rampage without really thinking about or reading what i'm saying.

Yes. This is a common problem with forums. For some reason I think Pinside Predator forum is the worse. Now notice I did not say, "Pinside" only. I mean this stupid Predator forum has been tough for two years on people. There are always two sides to a conversation and many here simply did not want the opposing side of the argument to ever post here. If they could have had a magic button to push and make all the naysayers disappear, I am sure they would have mashed it over and over. Sad indeed. I tend to believe all can get along in a forum. Even if you do not agree, you should welcome the others point of view. I do not mean you can insult or cuss at others, I simply mean express your opinion without being told, "Get out" or "your a troll". Too many people get their, "panties in a wad" like you said. It seems to always be worse in this Predator thread too

#4843 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

2. How much money does Kevin have left

Quoted from fastpinball:

There are a lot of people who are out a lot of money.

This guy would know better than anyone else on this thread. I'd sure rather he said Kevin maintained a full time job and his spending habits didn't change much vs what was said.....

Researching other examples where business owners are bitching about large sums of money locked up by Paypal,it looks like after 180 days they release it no matter what. 180 days after the first $3K you have all the EOD activity. 180 days after final payment, new house purchase. Connect the dots......

#4844 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

If you cared about the people's money you would have PM'd the info when you found out, ( you know anonymously)...Don't try to play this off.

Mr.goodie goodie couldn't be part of some anonymous group out with a personal vendetta. that would be immoral.

32
#4845 4 years ago

EDIT: It looks like the first person I spoke to at PayPal gave me a false sense of hope. After calling PayPal back again, they told me that we would need to go through police, small claims court, or another source outside of PayPal. They did tell me that Skit-B's PayPal account was shut down some time ago due to the amount of complaints stemming from it. That partly explains why we haven't been able to get refunds over the last few months.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Since Kevin has ignored my repeated refund requests, I contacted PayPal this morning by phone & informed them of this whole situation that has come to light over the weekend. Even though I was past the 180 days, they made an exception & were able to file complaint cases for my payments, but I still need to wait while they investigate. They said that in cases like this, they tend to make exceptions, so we will see what happens. They sounded like they weren't going to take this lightly.

For any of you that paid via PayPal & want a refund (but are past the 180 days): Log-in to your PayPal account, then click on the "Contact" link, then click on the "Call Us" link. The next page will give you a unique code that you will need to enter when you call PayPal. After you call & enter the unique code, just keep hitting "0" to get through to a representative & explain the situation to them. It's likely that there is already a "red flag" alert on Skit-B's PayPal account, so you will have their attention.

#4846 4 years ago

Who was that third gun man on the grassy knowel?

#4847 4 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I hope someone smarter than I can get to the bottom of whomthe annonymous group is as I think it will show that they were not merely an annonymous player that cared about the community.

Go to the first page of this thread.... You already "outed" him.

If you were wrong, then you at least owe the guy an apology.

-4
#4848 4 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Yes. This is a common problem with forums. For some reason I think Pinside Predator forum is the worse. Now notice I did not say, "Pinside" only. I mean this stupid Predator forum has been tough for two years on people. There are always two sides to a conversation and many here simply did not want the opposing side of the argument to ever post here. If they could have had a magic button to push and make all the naysayers disappear, I am sure they would have mashed it over and over. Sad indeed. I tend to believe all can get along in a forum. Even if you do not agree, you should welcome the others point of view. I do not mean you can insult or cuss at others, I simply mean express your opinion without being told, "Get out" or "your a troll". Too many people get their, "panties in a wad" like you said. It seems to always be worse in this Predator thread too

Yup

panties in a twist.png
14
#4849 4 years ago
Quoted from kvan99:

If you cared about the people's money you would have PM'd the info when you found out, ( you know anonymously)...Don't try to play this off.

Here's the problem in a situation like this; is the anonymous information you're receiving valid? If not and you post it as truth you are opening yourself up to a lawsuit with possible serious damages. Many times I hear things about manufacturers here from very reliable sources but I don't repeat them for just this reason.

#4850 4 years ago
Quoted from chessiv:

Here's the problem in a situation like this; is the anonymous information you're receiving valid?

OMG seriously. people tear everything apart here. Suddenly caution??

Promoted items from the Pinside Marketplace
$ 65.00
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
Texas Pinball
From: $ 25.00
Various Other Swag
Shoot Again Pinball
$ 50.00
$ 20.00
Playfield - Decals
Pinball Haus
$ 18.99
Eproms
Matt's Basement Arcade
$ 5,799.00
Pinball Machine
Gulf Coast Pinball, LLC
$ 209.99
$ 175.00
Lighting - Interactive
Professor Pinball
From: $ 12.00
$ 999.00
Flipper Parts
Mircoplayfields
$ 135.00
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 109.99
$ 84.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
PinBoss Mods
$ 69.95
Cabinet - Shooter Rods
Super Skill Shot Shop
$ 27.99
Lighting - Interactive
Lee's Parts
$ 69.00
Playfield - Toys/Add-ons
The MOD Couple
$ 495.00
Cabinet - Armor And Blades
MI Pinball Refinery
$ 109.99
$ 25.00
Cabinet - Other
Filament Printing
$ 199.99
Lighting - Led
Lighted Pinball Mods
There are 18272 posts in this topic. You are on page 97 of 366.

Hey there! Got a moment?

Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run thanks to donations from our visitors? Please donate to Pinside, support the site and get anext to your username to show for it! Donate to Pinside