(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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14
#4701 4 years ago

From the get-go I always wondered how a small start up could acquire and afford a major IP license like Predator - but in the end I never really questioned it publicly or gave it much thought after I saw prototypes. I just figured they would not have gone that far if they did not have one.

To my fault, I am a honest guy and I always assume others are also.

I feel really bad for all involved.

#4702 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

I also wanted to say, I was all for letting Aaron Klumpp off the hook but the more I think about this, he more than likely bailed from the project when he realized Kevin was not gonna aquire a license so at that point Aaron should have informed the buyers of the situation and all of this could have been avoided. That puts him in the same boat to me anyway.

No way, imagine the shit show that happened to Phil, x10.

#4703 4 years ago
Quoted from scylla:

Mods are responsible for moderating threads on Pinside - that's all they signed up for. It's unreasonable and unfair to expect them to be accountable for assessing the validity of new projects.

A simple set of questions asked is all I'm suggesting. Hell, it could be made into an automated form. Maybe something like this?

What are you offering? What is the time frame?

What is your background/experience?

Have you ever built anything like this before?

Do you have IP rights? Please show us a copy so it can be stickied.

Do you have a business license? Please show us a copy so it can be stickied.

How is the money going to be handled? Can I get a refund at anytime?

22
#4704 4 years ago

Interesting model within a community, first save your own ass and than let explow. Great stuff

pred_desaster.jpg
#4705 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

From the get-go I always wondered how a small start up could acquire and afford a major IP license like Predator - but in the end I never really questioned it publicly or gave it much thought after I saw prototypes. I just figured they would not have gone that far if they did not have one.
To my fault, I am a honest guy and I always assume others are also.
I feel really bad for all involved.

While back 5-6 weeks in this thread I pointed out that for example 'Long Tall Sallie' would certainly be a whole other license, IOW no way Kevin had recieved the rights to everything as he claimed. Music is expensive. At the least I suspected Kevin on that account but I had no idea he was lying about everything. But the rumblings have been around for a while but unfortunately since Kevin was not refunding anyone it didn't matter unless it was for CC chargeback deadlines.

Side note, can Kevin even use you guys money for lawyer payments? Doesn't seem right.

#4706 4 years ago

Anybody else get the email this morning?

#4708 4 years ago

a couple of observations:
fast pinball must change their name to slow pinball

There are no nice guys or bad guys for that matter

Its not personal ,its business

The most predominate emotion in pinball is frustration

#4709 4 years ago

Bottom line for me, unless I'm a close friend of a new builder, there is ZERO chance of me sending money for a pin that is not already in production or shipping.

Too much risk, Kevin really ruined it for future boutique makers, or makes it more difficult than it already is for start ups.

#4710 4 years ago

P.S. Maybe be in the future there needs to be proof of lisence not for makers like Stern or JJP but smaller guys like DP etc.. They should have a letter of proof that lisence are in fact valid.

19
#4711 4 years ago
Quoted from playboywillis:

Anybody else get the email this morning?

Did Kevin really send out another email saying he hadn't disappeared and is working on things?

Does he think he can still save this project? People want refunds, not another email. He shouldn't spend his time doing anything other than refunds at this point. What a complete asshole.

#4712 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

There in lies the problem, if he wanted to sneak it under the radar he should have let the preorder folks know by way of email and let them decide if they wanted to stay in. By misleading us making us think the license was in tact is the opposite of good intentions. I don't even understand the point of not trying to get the license from the get go, many of us, myself included would have paid a little more if we would have known what an actual license was priced at. As for out to get everyone's money, that may not have been his original intention but those intentions changed once the C&D was issued, once it was issued the project was dead.... period, so if it wasn't about the money then why accept a dime after the C&D? Also if it's not about the money then why was a new house purchased by Kevins wife a housewife? If you can't see what is going on here I don't know what to tell you. Please for the love of pinball stop sympathizing with the guy.

Here's the thing. If he outs himself that he doesn't have the license, he is just opening the door for someone to run and tell the tattle turtle. If he wants to have any chance to sneak it through, he has to go with a bullshit story that he has it, try and get the games made and in peoples hands before anyone notices. I really think this is his frame of mind with the event.

10
#4713 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

I think when a project this large comes through Pinside, the seller should be vetted and pertinent info stickied somewhere. I don't blame Pinside, but a cool head in a position of authority early on would have stopped this. Isn't that one of the things a mod is supposed to be? A hard lesson for all involved I think.

The moderator team is here to do just like the name says, we moderate. We do not take sides, do not vet projects, vendors, etc. It's not a reasonable expectation to put on us, and not a hat we would be comfortable wearing. We are as neutral as possible.

#4714 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

Interesting model within a community, first save your own ass and than let explow. Great stuff

pred_desaster.jpg

That seems to contradict this:

But do you have “skin in the game” ?
One of us still does actually, yes. Still not refunded, and have been trying since Q4 2014. Two of us were pre-owners, but got out last year, early, successfully. The rest were never pre-owners, but were leading voices of skepticism during the height of “License-Gate” on Pinside back in late 2014.

https://predatorpinball.wordpress.com

#4715 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Here's the thing. If he outs himself that he doesn't have the license, he is just opening the door for someone to run and tell the tattle turtle. If he wants to have any chance to sneak it through, he has to go with a bullshit story that he has it, try and get the games made and in peoples hands before anyone notices. I really think this is his frame of mind with the event.

No doubt that this is what he did. But that clearly makes him a liar and is the basis of the fraud he perpetrated.

#4716 4 years ago

What about Matt from back ally. Poor guy he made crap loads of those bloody spines. I think of all the money hes got in this. Maybe he will get lucky and someone will make a mortal kombu pin. The spine would look good on that.

#4717 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

Interesting model within a community, first save your own ass and than let explow. Great stuff

pred_desaster.jpg

There's the issue of preferrential payments while insolvent. If this ever got to a court liquidation, that money would be gone after by the liquidators.

#4718 4 years ago

never said it didn't, but if you're going to pull something like this. It's really your only option. You can't tell anyone you don't have the license or you have 0% chance of sneaking anything out the door.

#4719 4 years ago

SHIT B sure is a real CHOGGARD!

#4720 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

Here's the thing. If he outs himself that he doesn't have the license, he is just opening the door for someone to run and tell the tattle turtle. If he wants to have any chance to sneak it through, he has to go with a bullshit story that he has it, try and get the games made and in peoples hands before anyone notices. I really think this is his frame of mind with the event.

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it sounds like you're saying it's only bad because he got caught?

So, if he "snuck the games out illegally" - then that would have been OK?

I *guess* thats OK if all those 250 KNEW that were buying a bootleg (and had no morals), but Im assuming thats NOT the case.

34
#4721 4 years ago

The second biggest travesty here is all the misspellings of "license"...

Sorry... Kevin might have taken my money, but HE WILL NEVER TAKE MY HUMOR!!!

braveheart.jpg

#4722 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Sorry... Kevin might have taken my money, but HE WILL NEVER TAKE MY HUMOR!!!

I guess I can now officially declare I lost my bet.
Only chance for me now would be to get a draw: neither Pin, Predator or Alien, is delivered to you.
I won't even consider this. I now truly hope that you received your Alien Pin ASAP.

(The bet was he would receive his Predator pin before Alien - A $20 donation to Pinside is at stakes)

#4723 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

Interesting model within a community, first save your own ass and than let explow. Great stuff

I have mixed emotions about Mister X being a good/bad player in this debacle. Yes, two out of three of them recovered monies (if I remember what I read last night correctly). But it looks like there was no way to save everyone. My first thought was that they helped to 'F' everyone. But further thought makes me say this project was never going to complete. Even if it went under the I.P. radar indefinitely those who may still stand to lose $250 or $3,000 may have just been taken for more money. It looks like 10 were going to by built giving the investors the false sense of security to squeeze the final payments out. So Mister X might have still saved 190 people $1,250 or $4,000 more. The debate about the Mister X group falling on their swords and taking a loss with everyone else I wouldn't bother with. They saw something wrong, started investigating and pulled out. You would have also.

As for Kevin, assuming he's not in jail in the end goes from rock-star to hermit. With the loss of his life-long pinball hobby I think he should start collecting license plates. Maybe he'll be better at making those.

I hope this has a happier ending for all investors who just wanted a cool pin.

#4724 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Who got the most recent refund? We should compare that timeframe with the weird "Paypal is a great partner" email. If no one has gotten refunds since then, that would mean its likely Paypal froze the account at that time.
They probably told him then he needed to prove he was shipping and won't give him the money until he does. Now that doesn't answer how much money he withdrew from paypal prior to then, but it's something.

I got a $250.00 refund on Nov 7 2014 Hope this works out as best as possible for everyone

#4725 4 years ago
Quoted from NJGecko:

The moderator team is here to do just like the name says, we moderate. We do not take sides, do not vet projects, vendors, etc. It's not a reasonable expectation to put on us, and not a hat we would be comfortable wearing. We are as neutral as possible.

Many online communities do have vendor rules. If this situation doesn't make the case for having some, I don't know what does. Even a car community I frequent has a registration form for vendors that asks for and verifies your business tax ID.

http://www.tdiclub.com/Disclaimer/vendor.html

#4726 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent

Ding-ding. This is it...you start to tussle with companies over IP and they give you an inch...that means the next guy can take an inch too...

If Fox isn't game with Kevin's project, then no-way no-how they'll call the dogs off until it is completely gone.

-7
#4727 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Yeah, you keep saying that. But it sounds like you're saying it's only bad because he got caught?
So, if he "snuck the games out illegally" - then that would have been OK?
I *guess* thats OK if all those 250 KNEW that were buying a bootleg (and had no morals), but Im assuming thats NOT the case.

yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.

No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about. So you don't have a Tron arcade mod, or any aftermarket toppers on your machines? None of those little lamp shades with the name of the game lasercut into it? You don't buy into unlicensed stuff ever? I call bullshit.

I look at it like this. If you make something cool and selling it, i'll buy it, licensed or not. If it saves me $50 because it's unlicensed, so much the better. I'm not afraid to admit it and most are in the same club. With Kevin making the predator pin, is he taking money out of the pocket of fox? Was fox planning on making the game themselves? Nope, they didn't give a shit and were not going to cash in on it in the slightest. So I don't look at it as all that bad if he would have pulled it off. buyers would have been happy. People got something for their money. Another pin would be floating around the community. Fox would keep on airing their shit reporting news show. Life goes on.

#4728 4 years ago
Quoted from Slash:

That seems to contradict this:
But do you have “skin in the game” ?
One of us still does actually, yes. Still not refunded, and have been trying since Q4 2014. Two of us were pre-owners, but got out last year, early, successfully. The rest were never pre-owners, but were leading voices of skepticism during the height of “License-Gate” on Pinside back in late 2014.
https://predatorpinball.wordpress.com

More than your anonymous group ever had. Was dealing with some people to organize 11 games in one batch, none currently got a refund. I'm in with 3 games one close friend with another 2 and others with much more, so definitely IN from the first minute. But that's not the important question, or?
Here it comes:
So reading your article, FOX did hear the first time in November 2014 about the Predator Pinball initiated by you / your anonymous group? Is that right?

#4729 4 years ago
Quoted from mcluvin:

Many online communities do have vendor rules. If this situation doesn't make the case for having some, I don't know what does. Even a car community I frequent has a registration form for vendors that asks for and verifies your business tax ID.
http://www.tdiclub.com/Disclaimer/vendor.html

I would not prefer to get into a discussion on Pinside philosophies here. There are already too many tangents in this thread. This is how we currently function, but if you feel strongly, you can post on the moderator feedback section and discuss in more detail.

#4731 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

I guess I can now officially declare I lost my bet.
Only chance for me now would be to get a draw: neither Pin, Predator or Alien, is delivered to you.
I won't even consider this. I now truly hope that you received your Alien Pin ASAP.
(The bet was he would receive his Predator pin before Alien - A $20 donation to Pinside is at stakes)

Let's both donate $20 and call it day.

66
#4732 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

Ok, sorry I have not been following the Jpop thread anymore. Also, while I may have been out of line negatively about you personally, but with how tight you and Kevin are, and you were saying to everyone to calm the f-down when you may have know that Kevin never had a liscense and was under C&D action which in my book is not cool.
No matter how small a number it was, I know it's not going to kill Fox, but it's not cool to steal IP or assist in the attempt to steal IP.

I understand. There are a lot of people who are out a lot of money. I can't take back what I posted in the past, I can only apologize and hope for forgiveness. Kevin mislead me. Back when I made this post:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/9#post-2074466

I thought the problem Kevin had was that he was too busy with what he was working on to keep on communication. I asked him what the deal was with licensing and he told me (trying to quote as best as I can):

"We worked out an agreement with Fox with a guy who was a big pinball fan and really loved what we are doing. He said that if we were a non-profit and kept it to a limited run, we could do it." When I asked about why he couldn't promote Predator he told me "Because it is a limited run and it is sold out, we dont need to draw the extra attention to the project because we cant use the Predator name to promote our business in any online presence or social media." (my god even typing this now it reads like such bullshit).

He told me it was all in order. That's the story I got. I had no reason to not believe it.

Now my post the other day, here:

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/69#post-2324517

Here I am asking people to be calm was for a different reason. Kevin was working on a deal (now shared by Pinball News) and it was fragile and not official and Kevin couldnt get it worked out in the 2 weeks he asked for. (I had told him that he needed to send something to the owners so that he could at least stick to the 2 week message window.)

Let me fill in some blanks.

By now the whole truth on this Predator stuff was bubbling over. This is on the heels of me asking Kevin, "I know the Predator stuff is not my project, but I hate the feeling of doubt I have about it. People keep telling me the license is bullshit. Can you just show it to me?" He said he could understand why it was important to me and that he would get something for me. I didnt get anything. We talked again a day or two later. I asked about it again. He was going to get me something. I pressed again. This is what he told me:

"When I was looking into it, I discovered what I have isnt all I thought it was."

... "What? So it's a f-ing lie?"

I asked, "how did you think this was going to play out?!?!?! Was this why you were dragging ass on getting those playfield populated and those first 10 games shipped? Does this mean you actually did receive those C&Ds???"

By now I am way upset. I had been lied to by someone who I thought was a friend. I had vouching for him and look like an ass. But above all, the thing that pissed me off most was that if this was all happening, why the hell didnt he try to get help sooner??? These things could have been worked out!

I decide that I can suspend my getting super pissed at Kevin and focus on a solution. Since he talks to me, maybe I can hold him accountable to actually taking some steps towards some better solution.

I begin by telling Kevin "You need to address this right away. This is the kind of thing people go to jail over!"

This seems to get his attention, "I know. I know. This is bad."

I told him that I have no idea what the hell is going on with the Predator project. How many owners are there actually? What has been paid for? What agreements do you have?" I made a drop box and had him getting all his documents together. I got the owners list, the receipts for parts bought, quotes for stuff to be bought.

I asked him if he could reach out to Roger Sharpe. He helped with TBL, he could surely help here. Roger was an old family friend I learned so it seemed like a no brainer. Around this same time talk of working something out with JJP (I cannot confirm this as fact) and Heighway (Martin confirmed this in his article) both come up. It seems to swing back and forth day by day, which one is looking like the best option.

One night we had a long heavy conversation about the options. A) Go with JJP with Roger's help B) Hand the project over to Andrew or C) Cancel the project.

Going into the conversation I didnt say that C was on the table. I had been running numbers based on the bill of materials information I was given and what the spreadsheet said that people had paid and the numbers we so tight. $4750 was BARELY enough to cover building it themselves.

A) Paying JJP to make them seemed like something that would take outside money to make it work, not to mention pay Roger and the licensing cost! He seemed convinced that JJP could get the BOM low enough for it to be possible. I was skeptical.

B) Have Heighway take over the project. This one seemed confusing to me because it didnt seem to tie up any loose ends. It would mean that Predator the game could get made. But I would think that Heighway would want it to run on their hardware and that Kevin couldnt just hand over everyones money to Heighway and expect all the owners to be cool with it. He liked this idea because it meant the game could get made. I said that if that was the case, he should let Heighway take the game over and refund the money. Then let the owners buy the game if they want it.

C) Refund the money. This is the only thing that made sense to me. While I felt this would be the hardest for Kevin to do, it was the one that was most right. Anything else was going to drag on and on and on. There surely was money spent. I had seen invoices paid. So maybe there was room for some sort of partial (70%? 80%?) refund that could be given that would be better than this nasty mess.

Its about this time where I cannot unsee/unhear/unlearn anything I have learned. I talked to the others in our crew and we concluded that we couldnt work with Kevin on any sort of business level. Its just going to be a bad idea. We were going to work so hard to just keep him on track and that was a waste of our time.

So that brings me to the money. Kevin seemed to think that he could actually get someone to "invest" in the game and recoup on future games. I start to explain "thats not really an investment, thats a risky loan for a damaged brand..." and then I stop. Whats the point? I am not going to be able to help him sort out his money challenges. I had gotten to know Doug (Iceman44) through discussion we had around the JPOP projects. He is a pinball loving money guy. I had asked Kevin if it would be all right for me to find someone who could help him sort out money options for Predator. He said ok. I told him that he needed to get me a detailed breakdown of all the money. What was in paypal. What was in other accounts. What was spent on parts he got. What was spent on stuff he was waiting for. All of it. I said if someone was going to help him sort it out or "invest", he needed to do the BARE MINIMUM and get his stuff in order. He was going to get right on it! I asked Doug if he would help and he said he would.

But can you guess if that detailed break down of the money was ever produced??? NOPE.

So I tell Kevin I cant help him. I have thought of everything. I have run numbers over and over. Even ran them with others in the pinball biz to make sure I wasnt missing something. I consulted with others. There was nothing I can do. I hate feeling like that.

The last hope was that this Heighway thing worked out. This is why I asked people to be patient. I know now how horrible of a request that was to all of you. But I knew it was fragile.

---

I was not prepared to deal with the fall out. I was so caught off guard. I have never experienced anything like this weekend before. I didn't handle myself well. I got hung up in semantics with YKPinballer (I am very sorry. I know your intentions were right. I was so worried about getting misquoted that I let that become the issue). I was dealing with feeling like I was failing at trying to see a decent solution brought this Predator nightmare. I was hurt because I was lied to by Kevin. I felt horrible about how this would reflect on all the hard work that everyone contributed to the FAST projects. I was seeing all of this falling apart because Kevin wasnt honest and forthright in dealing with all of this. He was given the opportunity to do something pretty awesome and totally blew it.

I am prepared to be blasted over this post as well. I started typing and this is where it ended up. I wanted everyone to know that I sincerely had the best intentions.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#4733 4 years ago

Skit B soon to mean

Some Kevin In The Bighouse.

And rightly so.

#4734 4 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

I have mixed emotions about Mister X being a good/bad player in this debacle. Yes, two out of three of them recovered monies (if I remember what I read last night correctly). But it looks like there was no way to save everyone. My first thought was that they helped to 'F' everyone. But further thought makes me say this project was never going to complete. Even if it went under the I.P. radar indefinitely those who may still stand to lose $250 or $3,000 may have just been taken for more money. It looks like 10 were going to by built giving the investors the false sense of security to squeeze the final payments out. So Mister X might have still saved 190 people $1,250 or $4,000 more. The debate about the Mister X group falling on their swords and taking a loss with everyone else I wouldn't bother with. They saw something wrong, started investigating and pulled out. You would have also.
As for Kevin, assuming he's not in jail in the end goes from rock-star to hermit. With the loss of his life-long pinball hobby I think he should start collecting license plates. Maybe he'll be better at making those.
I hope this has a happier ending for all investors who just wanted a cool pin.

But why they didn't came out with that right at the moment they started their own refunding or at least in November at that time they got the info from FOX? For many pinsiders (including me and my friends) PAYPAL 180 day payback rule would be active, now 4 months later it doesn't work any longer.

#4735 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

More than your anonymous group ever had. Was dealing with some people to organize 11 games in one batch, none currently got a refund. I'm in with 3 games one close friend with another 2 and others with much more, so definitely IN from the first minute. But that's not the important question, or?
Here it comes:
So reading your article, FOX did hear the first time in November 2014 about the Predator Pinball initiated by you / your anonymous group? Is that right?

I hear your frustration in your post and it's somewhat understandable. However, I think the license issue is only the most prevalent issue at the moment, but not the only one. The fact is, Kevin already admitted he couldn't build these machines and he never budgeted to have someone else build them. There were significant roadblocks to these games ever being built (certainly not without getting pre-order folks to put up even more money.) To say this has been poorly managed from the start is an understatement.

#4736 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.
No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about. So you don't have a Tron arcade mod, or any aftermarket toppers on your machines? None of those little lamp shades with the name of the game lasercut into it? You don't buy into unlicensed stuff ever? I call bullshit.

That's another thing I always wondered about. The companies making toppers that included licensed images - like Iron Man, etc - I see no way they have the IP rights to make those.

#4737 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

That's another thing I always wondered about. The companies making toppers that included licensed images - like Iron Man, etc - I see no way they have the IP rights to make those.

probably not, but if you want to keep seeing cool shit for your game, you really can't give a shit about it. Otherwise you are going to be very limited on bonus goodies, and the ones you do see, with be high priced because you have more hands in the pile trying to get a cut. And some are very unreasonable to deal with.

#4738 4 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

That's another thing I always wondered about. The companies making toppers that included licensed images - like Iron Man, etc - I see no way they have the IP rights to make those.

If the Pred story gets out there in a bigger way, don't be surprised if IP owners start taking a closer look at that.

20
#4739 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I am prepared to be blasted over this post as well. I started typing and this is where it ended up. I wanted everyone to know that I sincerely had the best intentions.

As someone who has given you shit, I appreciate the detailed recap. I can understand that you were lied to like everyone else.

#4740 4 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

Wow are houses really that cheap in Michigan? I should move there.

Midland MI has a Dow plant and corporate headquarters, many wealthy residents, $28k home is not the norm.

#4741 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

not in my wildest imagination could i fathom he had zero/no license at all.

Me neither.

I considered my deposit gambling money at the time, so I'm not quite as pissed as a lot of others, but I thought the bottleneck/potential meltdown would be manufacturing the things. Certainly not licensing.

23
#4742 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

...instead, i find myself wondering how we could have something like fund-raisers set up at each of the pin events over the next 12-18 months and see if some funds could be collected and distributed to the folks that don't get some/all of their money back. Texas Pin Fest is next weekend. That's probably too soon to organize/plan something, but would be nice if something happened. If there was like 10 events over the next year-and-a-half, and maybe someone could donate a pin or 2 to a special auction at each event. maybe each event could raise like $5k to $8k at the auction and then put those funds into a holding-pattern somewhere. Multiply that against like 10 events and folks could have $50k-80k to redistribute to the 200ish customers that may end up loosing money. Maybe bulk print some shirts and sell them, and donate profits to the fund as well? Maybe charge a door cover to one of the nearby pubs and put those proceeds into the fund. I dunno, probably a logistical nightmare... but, I just wish something good could come from the community to help out. But, at moment we don't know how much may not available for refund, so maybe fund raisers could fill the gap perfectly, or be a stretch ...just noodling...

So you want other pinball players to pay for your loss? If you bought a stock and it went to zero, do you want other investors to pay for your loss? Tis is not like a family lost their house in a fire and need charity to provide a shelter and food for small children. This is not like a 10 year old boy/girl having a brain tumor and needing funds to go to Disney World. This is people (some silly for closing their eyes at all the red flags) that bought an object from a crooked vendor. You learn from your mistakes. Try not to do the same thing again in the future. Asking for others to pay for your mistake is way out of line imo.

#4743 4 years ago

Actually, they have houses for $500-750 in MI as well. I saw 4 of them on ebay not to long ago, and they closed at $500 each. Didn't look that bad either, but were in the heart of the Ghetto. Not hard to find a $2000-4000 house around detroit.

#4744 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.
No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about.

I look at it like this. If you make something cool and selling it, i'll buy it, licensed or not. If it saves me $50 because it's unlicensed, so much the better. I'm not afraid to admit it and most are in the same club.

Well, I hope the guys at FOX dont find their way into this threads then.

Because if I was a fox exec and I read your comment, I would say, "all these pinball guys are scammers as knew it was infringement and didn't give a shit. Let's not worry about them getting their money back, lets just bury this SkitB guy and make an example out of him"

#4745 4 years ago

Who wants to lay odds on Stern picking up the actual Predator license now that this whole kerfuffle proved interest in the game? heh!

#4746 4 years ago
Quoted from the_one:

But why they didn't came out with that right at the moment they started their own refunding or at least in November at that time they got the info from FOX? For many pinsiders (including me and my friends) PAYPAL 180 day payback rule would be active, now 4 months later it doesn't work any longer.

I have mixed feeling about Mr. X as well. But, there's a difference between requesting your own refund and going public that Kevin is defrauding people. The latter could result in a lawsuit from Kevin against the anonymous group for interfering with his contracts, liable, etc. The anonymous group were in a no win situation. They would need hard facts (copies of the C&D letters) to go public and not potentially expose themselves to liability as well.

-1
#4747 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Well, I hope the guys at FOX dont find their way into this threads then.
Because if I was a fex exec and I read your comment, I would say, "all these pinball guys are scammers as knew it was infringement and didn't give a shit. Let's not worry about them getting their money back, lets just bury this SkitB guy and make an example out of him"

I'm just saying, before you start call out people as immoral for buying a unlicensed game that should have been licensed, you might want to take an indepth look at your own buying history. I wouldn't dare pass judgment on someone for buying something unlicensed, known fake, or some other item like that, because we all have something we bought that probably falls in that category. And if we want to keep seeing cool shit become available, we need to not care either way. And I highly doubt Fox, would bother to get a pinside account, with the hopes that we are talking about it. Hell, they can't even report regular news worth a shit, without making stuff up themselves. Fox themselves, are full of shit, and make up stories and allegations without any facts to back it up. I think it's a safe bet we can pretty much talk about whatever we want in here.

Besides that, pinball has a history of being the bad boy hobby. The rough crowd. Crowds that walk across the street WITHOUT a cross walk. Yea, that's the shit i'm talking about. Playing games in a smoky underground club, and having the bartender pay you out because you got the match. Oh yea, that's the shit. We are bad boys. We buy shit we like regardless of license. Damn straight.

#4748 4 years ago

The burden of proof is on Kevin. If he wasn't lying, he'd be able to produce a license number or something. But he can't prove shit. Thank you anonymous.

#4749 4 years ago
Quoted from rai:

I think that guy that called the cops on Kevin was right on, but he was very harshly set upon by many here.

DevilsTuner

#4750 4 years ago
Quoted from epthegeek:

Who wants to lay odds on Stern picking up the actual Predator license now that this whole kerfuffle proved interest in the game? heh!

If you built a new cruise ship would you name it Titanic? I think the title alone is tainted now and might not sell well (with all the confusion) on that alone.

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