Quoted from labnip:yup. same here...
not in my wildest imagination could i fathom he had zero/no license at all.
Wow such modesty...
(Topic ID: 108377)
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Smithville, MO
Quoted from labnip:yeah same here.
game looked cool, those front/center targets bugged me, but man what a great looking pin.
the audio, lighting, and animations were great. i actually didn't mind the artwork either.
the whole no license thing is just so far/extreme of a concept, that why would anyone even consider it, much less even think to ask about it.
i was hoping to see & play it again this year at TPF
...instead, i find myself wondering how we could have something like fund-raisers set up at each of the pin events over the next 12-18 months and see if some funds could be collected and distributed to the folks that don't get some/all of their money back. ya know... if there was like 10 events over the next year-and-a-half, and maybe someone could donate a pin or 2 to a special auction at each event. maybe each event could raise like $5k to $8k at the auction and then put those funds into a holding-pattern somewhere. Multiply that against like 10 events and folks could have $50k-80k to redistribute to the 200ish customers that may end up loosing money. Maybe bulk print some shirts and sell them, and donate profits to the fund as well? I dunno, probably a logistical nightmare... but, I just wish something good could come from the community to help out. And, don't know how much could be not available for refund still ...just noodling...</bloc
yeah same here.
game looked cool, those front/center targets bugged me, but man what a great looking pin.
the audio, lighting, and animations were great. i actually didn't mind the artwork either.
the whole no license thing is just so far/extreme of a concept, that why would anyone even consider it, much less even think to ask about it.
i was hoping to see & play it again this year at TPF
...instead, i find myself wondering how we could have something like fund-raisers set up at each of the pin events over the next 12-18 months and see if some funds could be collected and distributed to the folks that don't get some/all of their money back. ya know... if there was like 10 events over the next year-and-a-half, and maybe someone could donate a pin or 2 to a special auction at each event. maybe each event could raise like $5k to $8k at the auction and then put those funds into a holding-pattern somewhere. Multiply that against like 10 events and folks could have $50k-80k to redistribute to the 200ish customers that may end up loosing money. Maybe bulk print some shirts and sell them, and donate profits to the fund as well? I dunno, probably a logistical nightmare... but, I just wish something good could come from the community to help out. And, don't know how much could be not available for refund still ...just noodling...
I know! I came SO close to getting in on the pre-order. I had 24 hours to decide...and I turned it down. I kept going back and forth...I didn't mind the artwork, LOVED the theme and callouts. The black light was soooo cool. I'm with you, I'm hoping there is a way we can donate, sell t shirts, something to generate funds for those who are not able to get all their money back (hopefully they will get it all back). I'm sure it would be somewhat of a nightmare, but I'm totally in on ideas, support, etc....
Quoted from CaptainNeo:Or more importantly, what happened to the Total Recall prototype?
(you might ask what relevance this has to this discussion, and the answer would be nothing. I just wanted to know because i've been looking for it for about 10 years)
I believe I heard it got thrown in a dumpster. Shame, if so.
Quoted from labnip:yeah same here.
game looked cool, those front/center targets bugged me, but man what a great looking pin.
the audio, lighting, and animations were great. i actually didn't mind the artwork either.
the whole no license thing is just so far/extreme of a concept, that why would anyone even consider it, much less even think to ask about it.
i was hoping to see & play it again this year at TPF
...instead, i find myself wondering how we could have something like fund-raisers set up at each of the pin events over the next 12-18 months and see if some funds could be collected and distributed to the folks that don't get some/all of their money back. ya know... if there was like 10 events over the next year-and-a-half, and maybe someone could donate a pin or 2 to a special auction at each event. maybe each event could raise like $5k to $8k at the auction and then put those funds into a holding-pattern somewhere. Multiply that against like 10 events and folks could have $50k-80k to redistribute to the 200ish customers that may end up loosing money. Maybe bulk print some shirts and sell them, and donate profits to the fund as well? I dunno, probably a logistical nightmare... but, I just wish something good could come from the community to help out. And, don't know how much could be not available for refund still ...just noodling...
That's a nice thought, but it's probably still early until we see how this plays out. There are some of us who need the money more than others. I knew the risks involved. (Although I was shocked that Kevin had absolutely no license or permission whatsoever, ever. But that's a different discussion.) I'm going to do everything I can to get my money back (and see Kevin pays for his actions). But If I lose all of my money, so be it.
If I get my money back and others don't, I will likely return some to the people who didn't. I know it's Kevin's fault, he's the shit bag. But if the money isn't there, it's not there.
This thing is going to take awhile to play out. In the meantime I'm gonna relax and play some pinball.
Quoted from shacklersrevenge:I believe I heard it got thrown in a dumpster. Shame, if so.
I disagree. It was in the lot when DE warehouse was sold. Magically disappeared when the new buyer was suppose to pick everything up. It's hiding somewhere in IL. I guarantee it.
Southampton
Quoted from CaptainNeo:It's hiding somewhere in IL. I guarantee it.
Not wisconsin? 
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Still haven't seen confirmation on this:
Is Skit-B a business? LLC? Non-profit? ...?
Or is this all going to come down to Kevin being the responsible entity on a personal level?
I see him taking the full brunt head first on a personal level. His logo is not even registered.
Villejuif
Quoted from jlm33:Time to start a "Predator: Mission aborted" thread.
Sana'a
Quoted from s1500:This. I see no point trying to vilify FAST, VirtuaPin, or any of the would-have-been partners that Kevin was involved with. Enough bridges have been burned, and there's no sense shunning anyone besides Kevin. Is anyone going to send pitchforks after Spooky for the playfields? No.
Hell, even Whysnow's botique evangelism will now quiet down and we'll all have a good laugh with him about it over a beer at MGC. We will go "Hey, remember when you were on the hunt for Mr. X? Good times, good times". "To Mr. X!" *beers clang*
Fast, and virtuapin, openly told all of us with questions about the license that we were worrying about nothing and that the license was fine, spooky never commented. The reasons I stayed in was because the comments by whysnow, virtuapin and fast, spooky and back alley just made the whole thing seem legit. This whole situation is horrible. Sorry it had come to this fellow pinheads. I've also got two worthless topper/siders from back alley, a couple skitb predator tshirts, and the infrared Arnold figure about 300 bucks of worthless shit also in for the whole amount of $4750. I'd say that's about 5050 reasons to be done with the hobby.
Kevin just sent an email to owners stating he is still here, working through everything, and "....An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to......"
Sounds like he's gonna try and provide some remedy. I'm praying for some ounce of good news for everyone.
Quoted from GGBGROUP:Those following the model of prepayment will need to modify their business approach to have some form of a license validation/certification process going forward. I think this is certainly bad for the industry. JJP wouldn't be there without the prepay model and while I like Stern very much, competition and innovation go hand-in-hand.
The problem is that these aren't pre-orders, they are interest-free loans. When you're funding the startup costs for a company, you're an investor. You're taking on risk, especially in an industry that still only has one company regularly producing machines.
I don't want to crap on the idea of hobbyists funding new businesses they want to see. I just think it's better to drop the whole "pre-order" charade and move the stuff to Kickstarter where it belongs. Or have these companies take out a business loan like everyone else.
This has turned out terrible - and I hope a everyone gets their money back. Reposting from page 77.
While Kevin is clearly 100% to blame, how should the community have acted in their roles of "knowing" something. This isn't a pitchfork exercise, it's about setting expectations on accountability we hold each other to. What are the ethics of our community here? I don't have the answers but am concerned.
Quoted from badbilly27:I will add one nugget for everyone in the community to think about - ethics - and future handling by the community (yes, all of us) regardless how this story ends (hopefully happy for all involved).
Anonymous emailers: Let's assume (which I pray is true) everyone wants Kevin to be successful in delivering a Predator pinball machine. With all the right intentions, community member(s) discovered and validated an issue so impactful it would jeopardize fellow hobbyists money and likely risk of Predator ever being built. The ethical dilemma for them, do they post that info on pinside likely starting a panic and run on the bank by owners requesting refunds - possibly viewed as the unintentional villans? Or do they secretly and selectively send anonymous emails hoping it leaks and never boomerangs back to them?
Suggestion (to be debated): I appreciate what you did but man up, and own the info. You added so much drama when the situation didn't need it. It clouded the validity of the information, casted more doubt and angst. Credibility is what was needed to ensure all owners knew the train may be coming off the tracks and let them decide to stay in or out.
Recipients of the anonymous email (full disclosure, I have copies too): The dilemma is do you post information on pinside that comes from an anonymous source, lists accusations supposedly validated, but written in a way that casts doubt (by the way different versions floating around). No way to validate with authors so left to go direct to the source - Kevin - which they did. If you post that email and it's complete BS - you've created a run on the bank based hearsay - and may cost Predator from ever being built.
Suggestion: Some of info in those emails appear to be turning out to be factual and some BS. Kevin has stated he is trying to remedy some issues with help - that help could have evaporated if the community made a run on the bank before the hail marry pass made it out of his hands. Timing. I do think transparency should have reigned on this one. Kevin ultimately withheld info. The anonymous emailers shifted the ethical dilemma onto other select insiders to break the story but without a credible source to confirm. Thus why people are waiting to validate accusations and try to help salvage behind the scenes. It should never have gotten to this point.
I believe when pinsiders money is involved and someone in the community knows "factually" that's at risk we should advise each other after first discussing it with the faulting party. There is a lot of grey area in this one, but then what is the definition of "community"??
Adelaide
Quoted from badbilly27:Kevin just sent an email to owners stating he is still here, working through everything, and "....An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to......"
Sounds like he's gonna try and provide some remedy. I'm praying for some ounce good news for everyone.
Unfortunately talk is cheap, especially coming from him. He needs to pay back monies asap!
"With all the chaos of the last few days I see it only fitting to remind everyone that I am still here and going through the necessary processes to get everyone what they've asked for. An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to. My endless apologies for what you are all enduring, and you are all paramount in my mind while we expedite a solution to the issues you are all facing currently.
-Kevin"
Argh, so you are still gonna build us a Predator pin? 
Quoted from gprotein:"With all the chaos of the last few days I see it only fitting to remind everyone that I am still here and going through the necessary processes to get everyone what they've asked for. An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to. My endless apologies for what you are all enduring, and you are all paramount in my mind while we expedite a solution to the issues you are all facing currently.
-Kevin"
Argh, so you are still gonna build us a Predator pin?
And there we have it, Kevin went to Paramount for the license instead of Fox , easy mistake to make
Sorry trying to lighten the mood for us all
Quoted from Russo121:Ok, now I will listen to suggestions on the best way to send pressurized containers of dog shit through international mail?...... Anyone?
(j/k)
Here ya go, have fun lol
Quoted from gprotein:"With all the chaos of the last few days I see it only fitting to remind everyone that I am still here and going through the necessary processes to get everyone what they've asked for. An official statement will be released as soon as possible, but you all need to know that I have not, as recent articles would have you believe, disappeared, nor do I plan to. My endless apologies for what you are all enduring, and you are all paramount in my mind while we expedite a solution to the issues you are all facing currently.
-Kevin"
Argh, so you are still gonna build us a Predator pin?
Solution.
Pot of money divided by 200.
Then send.
This was posted by spooky pinball this morning:
"Honesty... Always the best policy. Man I hate seeing this crap. We put a ton of time and energy into helping the Skit B project, and this really sucks. We hope it ends well regardless for all involved.
For the record, our 2nd game is a license. We have a real agreement. The subject is involved, we're using their artist, their input, and can't wait to show you this can work in a company our size.
Keep the faith... We are doing the same.
I've read the Pinside stuff and here's exactly what we knew. We busted ass to help get the plastics and playfields done. A total of 10 each were ever made. That black light effect was promoted by them as a feature LONG before they asked us to find a way to make it work. When I think now of the months we WASTED making that happen to any degree of success... not cool. A few months back I began to get suspicious, and just flat out quit working on anything that wasn't ours. Never heard from their camp again.... Been asked a lot about this the last few weeks... was really hoping it wasn't true, just like everyone else. Sadly it appears not to be the case... BUT... we help lots of other small companies, and lots of other good people. Sure not going to change that, just will use this as a learning experience and move on."
Quoted from jlm33:hum... given that people paid either $250, $3000 or $4750...
Ok, not rocket science but if 75% of money left, then 75% of all those amounts - then hit the refund button 
Quoted from Erik:After reading the wordpress site, at least now I have a pretty good idea of who Mr. X is. Disappointing he sat on this info at the request of Fox's attorney (to whom he was not beholden) while there was still a chance for some buyers to exercise paypal disputes.
The argument overall was well written and thorough, but I can not understand why this was not made public sooner. I agree the writing was on the wall for a long while Whysnow notwithstanding I believe when 2015 came and no pins that this project was doomed.
Quoted from labnip:You SIR (Aaron) get the whole damn sash for this BS !
Hell, I have to create a whole new category of badges for you.
douchebag-merit-badges.jpg (Click image to enlarge)
Note to self never buy anything from Fast pinball Aaron, no friend of pinsiders, but apparently a friend of Kevin and he does not deserve to be called sir which is usually a term of endearment.
Who got the most recent refund? We should compare that timeframe with the weird "Paypal is a great partner" email. If no one has gotten refunds since then, that would mean its likely Paypal froze the account at that time.
They probably told him then he needed to prove he was shipping and won't give him the money until he does. Now that doesn't answer how much money he withdrew from paypal prior to then, but it's something.
Quoted from RobT:Really Aaron, I'm sorry to say, but other than Whysnow, you had a bigger impact on convincing people that there was no issue with the license than anyone on Pinside. And actually, speaking for me personally, you had a much bigger impact on me than Whysnow.
It was based on your posts here that I had largely recanted some of my well documented criticism/doubt about any license existing, when you clearly implied that you had seen the actual Predator license agreement from Fox.
I had even indicated, in response to moderator Xerico, that it would have been nice if you specifically came out and stated whether you saw the actual license, but that it was clearly implied from your post(s). You let that sit, without further explanation, leading me to believe that you had actually seen the license agreement based on your friendship with Kevin...who is a great guy.
I swear to God, if I had a dime for every time I saw someone on Pinside post about what a nice guy Kevin is, I'd be a damn millionaire.
Aaron (Fast) is also leading the chear for Jpop just saying.
Quoted from toyotaboy:This was posted by spooky pinball this morning:
"Honesty... Always the best policy. Man I hate seeing this crap. We put a ton of time and energy into helping the Skit B project, and this really sucks. We hope it ends well regardless for all involved.
For the record, our 2nd game is a license. We have a real agreement. The subject is involved, we're using their artist, their input, and can't wait to show you this can work in a company our size.
Keep the faith... We are doing the same.
I've read the Pinside stuff and here's exactly what we knew. We busted ass to help get the plastics and playfields done. A total of 10 each were ever made. That black light effect was promoted by them as a feature LONG before they asked us to find a way to make it work. When I think now of the months we WASTED making that happen to any degree of success... not cool. A few months back I began to get suspicious, and just flat out quit working on anything that wasn't ours. Never heard from their camp again.... Been asked a lot about this the last few weeks... was really hoping it wasn't true, just like everyone else. Sadly it appears not to be the case... BUT... we help lots of other small companies, and lots of other good people. Sure not going to change that, just will use this as a learning experience and move on."
I think I speak for many when I say we don't blame Spooky for being a vendor. The difference was they didn't come here and defend any skit-b practices, or the lack of answer for the license, etc.
They certainly used YOUR product and goodwill to demonstrate they were making progress, but that is on them, not you.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:I've talked with Kevin and his team many times over the years. I really think his intentions were good and he was just excited to make the game happen. I really think he thought he could sneak it in under the radar. I really think he could have, if it didnt' take so damn long to get the games done. If he would have pulled it off in the first year, I really think it would have happened. Never once out of all my conversations with him, did I ever get the impression he was out to get everyones money.
There in lies the problem, if he wanted to sneak it under the radar he should have let the preorder folks know by way of email and let them decide if they wanted to stay in. By misleading us making us think the license was in tact is the opposite of good intentions. I don't even understand the point of not trying to get the license from the get go, many of us, myself included would have paid a little more if we would have known what an actual license was priced at. As for out to get everyone's money, that may not have been his original intention but those intentions changed once the C&D was issued, once it was issued the project was dead.... period, so if it wasn't about the money then why accept a dime after the C&D? Also if it's not about the money then why was a new house purchased by Kevins wife a housewife? If you can't see what is going on here I don't know what to tell you. Please for the love of pinball stop sympathizing with the guy.
Quoted from rai:Aaron (Fast) is also leading the chear for Jpop just saying.
We had not been able to make any meaningful progress with John.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from CaptainNeo:I really think he thought he could sneak it in under the radar. I really think he could have, if it didnt' take so damn long to get the games done. If he would have pulled it off in the first year, I really think it would have happened.
Let's say he did pull it off under the radar. He can wipe his website off the map, but now everyone is talking about their cool Predator pins. Bringing them to shows. Selling them. Creating mods. Making youtube videos. Fox ain't gonna find out ever huh? Who the hell would want that hanging over their head?
I do believe he started with the best intentions, in his own irrational and "got no problem lying" way, but to insist on that money after the C&D? What the hell? Is an insanity plea possible? It makes no sense.....
Quoted from MagicMako:We have to make sure this never happens again
We can. Just stop acting like a bunch of lemmings and perpetuating this Pre-Order business model. That's how we stop it.
I think that guy that called the cops on Kevin was right on, but he was very harshly set upon by many here. People need to stop vouching for people like Kevin. I know Ted is a great guy but really please don't say everything is fine with the liscence which you said months ago also with Aaron don't know when he got involved in calming the naysayers, but it turns out the naysayers were far more correct than him (Aaron) a supposed insider and good friend of Kevin.
Quoted from mcluvin:Let's say he did pull it off under the radar.
Thinking about this.... his critical mistake was turning this into a relatively large project of 250. "Under the radar" would be creating 4 prototypes and selling those on the downlow to private collectors.
But hundreds of people have been harmed from his reckless choices now.
Quoted from fastpinball:We had not been able to make any meaningful progress with John.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Ok, sorry I have not been following the Jpop thread anymore. Also, while I may have been out of line negatively about you personally, but with how tight you and Kevin are, and you were saying to everyone to calm the f-down when you may have know that Kevin never had a liscense and was under C&D action which in my book is not cool.
No matter how small a number it was, I know it's not going to kill Fox, but it's not cool to steal IP or assist in the attempt to steal IP.
Quoted from frolic:Who got the most recent refund? We should compare that timeframe with the weird "Paypal is a great partner" email. If no one has gotten refunds since then, that would mean its likely Paypal froze the account at that time.
They probably told him then he needed to prove he was shipping and won't give him the money until he does. Now that doesn't answer how much money he withdrew from paypal prior to then, but it's something.
Did any of the buyers get anything shipped from SHIT B?
Like a SHIT B tshirt or skull or whatever.
If they did how much were they committed monetarily when received SHIT B package?
Could SHIT B have used this shipped package to free up the million from pay pal?
Quoted from Half_Life:We can. Just stop acting like a bunch of lemmings and perpetuating this Pre-Order business model. That's how we stop it.
And I did. After we all got screwed here in Australia over the JJP/Bumper fiasco. No more preorders for a lot of folk here. See it play it buy it......or not! MY CHOICE.
Quoted from Half_Life:We can. Just stop acting like a bunch of lemmings and perpetuating this Pre-Order business model. That's how we stop it.
I think when a project this large comes through Pinside, the seller should be vetted and pertinent info stickied somewhere. I don't blame Pinside, but a cool head in a position of authority early on would have stopped this. Isn't that one of the things a mod is supposed to be? A hard lesson for all involved I think.
Quoted from PorkChopExpress:Did any of the buyers get anything shipped from SHIT B?
Like a SHIT B tshirt or skull or whatever.
If they did how much were they committed monetarily when received SHIT B package?
Could SHIT B have used this shipped package to free up the million from pay pal?
No, tshirts were sent to anyone that donated to Skit-Bs website before any deposit was taken. Oh and Kevin might not think he did anything wrong since he didn't actually ship a machine with Fox IP on it, I wonder what he thinks about those shirts?
I don't know either but would it be possible for Fox to have got a sales list and seized the offending pins if they were built? Fox wouldn't pay for them, Kevin would have been on the hook so it's really best these were never built.
I think even though these pins are home use mainly, Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent that as long as you get them made under the radar you are safe to buy unlicensed pins. Note I am not sure what would occur, but even though the buyer is not at fault, I believe they could be ordered to return the pins to Fox for disposal. Note: I'm unclear about this but it's almost reminds me of when you buy a counterfiet SB ticket that's the buyers problem, not the NFLs.
Quoted from rai:I don't know either but would it be possible for Fox to have got a sales list and seized the offending pins if they were built? Fox wouldn't pay for them, Kevin would have been on the hook so it's really best these were never built.
I think even though these pins are home use mainly, Fox wouldn't want to set a precedent that as long as you get them made under the radar you are safe to buy unlicensed pins. Note I am not sure what would occur, but even though the buyer is not at fault, I believe they could be ordered to return the pins to Fox for disposal. Note: I'm unclear about this but it's almost reminds me of when you buy a counterfiet SB ticket that's the buyers problem, not the NFLs.
I would think you are probably right.
I also wanted to say, I was all for letting Aaron Klumpp off the hook but the more I think about this, he more than likely bailed from the project when he realized Kevin was not gonna aquire a license so at that point Aaron should have informed the buyers of the situation and all of this could have been avoided. That puts him in the same boat to me anyway.
Toronto, ON
Quoted from mcluvin:I think when a project this large comes through Pinside, the seller should be vetted and pertinent info stickied somewhere. I don't blame Pinside, but a cool head in a position of authority early on would have stopped this. Isn't that one of the things a mod is supposed to be? A hard lesson for all involved I think.
Mods are responsible for moderating threads on Pinside - that's all they signed up for. It's unreasonable and unfair to expect them to be accountable for assessing the validity of new projects.
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