What happens if he files for bankruptcy?

what if he already has ?

Everyone gets in line to get what's left.

His federal court battle with FOX will bankrupt him completely - that is for his willful copyright infringement.

Fox does not care about any investors, or any refunds on pinball machines.

I don't care what Fox cares about.

What you are suggesting simply compounds his problems. If he refunds all the money, he has eliminated his main problem. Having one problem (Fox) is better than two (potential fraud allegations by more than 200 people).

I love how this thread has more boobs than the WNBJM thread.

So you are saying that Fox will still waste their time and money to pursuit further even the game won't be made and all the money gone/refunded, so no damage done or money made of their IP? That makes so much sense.

If he refunds the money, he won't have the money for his defense in federal court against Fox.

Like I said, whoever brought it to Fox's attention, totally killed the chances of a refund for everyone else.

I'm sure they have lawyers on salary. Plus this guy has pulled in nearly a million bucks. There's money to be made if he still has it. Also sends a message to any future IP thieves. You are not going to get a slap on the wrist.

You need to have a company established in order for it to file bankruptcy. I see no registered company anywhere near the name of Skit B (I don't think you can just register a random name and then operate your business under a completely different name can you?) And I highly doubt he's filing personal bankruptcy.

It's just like the MP3 cases where sharing 20 MP3s had a judgement of $675,000 - and that's separate from the $98,000 in attorney fees.

The RIAA did not care that it completely bankrupted the individuals.

The important part is making a grand statement.

So?

You don't seem to understand: keeping the money will make it *worse* for him. Those lawyers that he pays with money he got from Predator buyers won't be able to help him much if he doesn't refund the money, so what's the point of keeping money to pay lawyers if he's going to lose anyway?

By keeping the money he opens himself up to what could be much more serious than any lawsuit that Fox brings. Fox can only sue him on a civil basis. Keeping the money opens Kevin up to potential criminal charges, including wire fraud.

Keeping the money is a horrible idea, even from Kevin's point of view (this assumes there is no lawsuit or restraining order filed at this point).

Yeah, cuz I'm sure that Kevin was right on the edge of issuing refunds to everyone right before Fox found out about it.

Fox found out because "mr X" called their licensing department and pointed them at SkipB's website.

Prior to that, Fox said they had no idea at all about the project.

Well then more reason for Kevin to refund so there is no money incentive for Fox. And no game made so it's hard prove damage to the judge.

You will see.

It is two separate things.

The Fox case is supposedly already filed. That means Kevin will need to retain a mighty expensive legal team for that case first.

All the money will go into the toilet for that, Kevin will probably have to declare bankruptcy.

Fox will want to make an expensive example.

The actual money recovered is of no importance.

Do you think anyone had $675,000 laying around to pay those MP3 cases?

I doubt Kevin is seen anywhere.

That bastard! Otherwise Kevin could have keep defrauding FOX and lying to all his suppliers and customers to this very day! Boy, that would have been sweet.

It would have been so much better if FOX found out when a dozen or so made it into the wild and they got wind of one from YouTube or a show.... Then swooped in when a bunch of suppliers had committed even more resources and had parts stacked up to the roof.

Poor Kevin, screwed over by some jerk that stopped his scam.

/backwards day

He is not going to risk a lynch mob by showing up anywhere.

He was not at OH this weekend, and you know he won't be at MI in 2 weeks either.

Well then if a suit is already filed how can Kevin legally use our money? Wouldn't he be fighting a court case with stolen money? Its not like the money he took was a gift.

If you think about it, there were plenty of show pictures for years all over the web.

We think that pinball is some giant thing, but only a few weirdos are really into it.

To add to that its in our best interest to file a suit before he start spending that cash.

I know many of you may not like me, but Vid is a very smart man and understands much of the reality that has been going on behind the scenes it seems.

Just remember, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Whenever it comes to light what is the status of the license and what happened to bring us to this point, keep in mind that Mr. X has made it a point to bring as much heat as he could while also trying to ensure that if there are punitive damages to IP holders that they are able to take all the cash and leave everyone else sitting here empty.

I don't know what will come of all this, but do know that Mr X and his group of behind the scenes crusaders have not had pure intentions of making sure they protect pinball. They have been trying to kill this project for personal reasons while also ensuring that all the pinheads that have funded this get screwed along the way. That is a clear motive of theirs from day 1 and also a big part of the reason they have been trying to hide behind an alias. If they simply cared about pinheads then they would have publicly and openly told the world what they claim to have discovered 6 months ago when they contacted fox.

It is obvious that many of the people behind Mr x are active pinsiders and also trying to distance themselves from the story as it unfolds. I have been told that PBN is publishing a story this next week. I hope it finally sheds some light on all this crap. I look forward to it as honestly I have no idea what REALLY has been happening behind the scenes apparently for months.

Does an attorney representing a drug dealer ask if their retainer was paid with illegally generated drug profits?

From what's been said in this thread, it wasn't "the phone call to Fox" that shut this thing down, it was the apparent ignoring of a cease & desist and Kevin pressing on with things, despite that. That seemed to have escalated it with Fox to where we're at today. That is just what I'm going off from public information and we haven't heard otherwise.

From what Mr. X has claimed it took months and months of them contacting fox before fox would even dedicate energy to examining it. Only after that repeated and persistent contact did fox actually get involved.

Can someone tell me the whole story? I check out this thread and can read some between the lines, but what actually happened?

If he was using the license illegally, why are you bent out of shape about people checking with Fox about it?
The problem start and stop with Kevin. No one is trying to torpedo the project. Everything should be on the up and up and if people call him on something that isn't - that's Kevin's fault.

I want my money dammit. I'm going to TPF next week and would love to have $4750 to pick something up.

I don't believe skitB was EVER knowingly using it illegally. I believe he had a license but obviously not the extent it needed to be. Mr. X brought unneeded heat for selfish reasons and with the intent to not only kill the project but to try and make sure that preorder people are the ones hurt the most.

As soon as lawyers get involved all us little guys get screwed. That means no game and no refunds just so Mr. X could claim to save pinball. He really has just been a pawn of his industry big timers that have used him to be the scape goat it appears. Mr x was not merely checking on a license. he has been working hard to create as many road blocks as possible and try to make sure all us preorder people get screwed in the end. I would say he has succeeded it appears.

As i said, 2 wrongs don't make a right. Kevin not having the needed license is wrong but Mr X contacting fox and working to ensure preorder people are left empty handed does not make it right.

Ask yourself, if he really had this info 6 months ago, why not tell the community so people could get money out before the lawyers got involved.

Vid....that is exactly my point!

In fact, the more I think about it, it could be three separate things: 1) Fox IP issues 2) Wirefraud/criminal proceedings 3) Civil lawsuit(s) by people who gave money to Kevin for Predator.

If he gives the money back, he eliminates 2 of the 3.

Keeping the money makes zero sense from Kevin's standpoint. It makes things worse. Lawyer or no lawyer.

Much better to declare bankruptcy after giving the money back and avoiding potential criminal charges.

Just to be clear, you're suggestioning the "first wrong" was Kevin illegally marketing a product without license, lying about it multiple times to customers and suppliers and refusing to refund people as promised.

The second "wrong" was the person or persons that put a stop to it?

Yikes.

It sounds like there's a few people that would have been fine with receiving an illegally manufactured game... You know- because it's an awesome theme.

I'd assume those folks are more likely at the front of the line since it would become increasingly likely that it could have been shutdown prior to the last person getting their game. But who cares as long as the first 10 or 20 people got theirs.

That might explain SOME people's willingness to ignore the warning signs and keep pumping the project here on pinside.....

Not very pragmatic.

read page 70

I don't think kevin ever thought he did not have the full and needed license. I don't think he ever illegally marketed anything. I firmly believe he thought he naively had everything in order. by the sounds of it any real stop to ip for renegotiations has happened in the past few weeks?

My position in the line has absolutely nothing to do with how i feel on this and frankly you are way in the wrong for making that accusation.

You've see the house that Kevin lives in.

Even if he sells it, he won't have enough cash to pay for his federal trial.

Where do you think he is going to get the money for his defense?

If Fox has brought a lawsuit against Kevin would part of the lawsuit be to freeze all on Kevin's, or
Skit-b's funds until the lawsuit was settled? I do not know how these things work.

So he just took all mention of predator off the internet and wouldn't mention the name of the game in his e-mails for no reason, then for a year dodges the issue and didn't even think to look into it until 2 weeks ago. what "you believe" is beyond insane.

I'm not even sure if the person who called could be labelled as "putting a stop to it". All they did was call to make sense of all the obfuscation and ambiguity about everything having to do with the license. Fox could have easily told them that there was a license and that's the end of it.

I don't care. You are the one who said that he would have to file bankruptcy anyway. You file bankruptcy, you get to keep your house! And...avoid potential wire fraud charges and stay out of jail.

Bankruptcy is not that big of a deal, especially considering the alternatives.

Best course of action by far is to give as much money back as he possibly can, as soon as he can. Fox can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.

Wouldn't a lawsuit be easily found online? How soon from filing does it hit the jurisdictions website. I'm assuming Fox HQ for legal matters is in CA.

One could call and ask if Predator was available for licensing in a pinball machine. If the answer was "YES", you could simply hang up the phone.

OR, one could call and when the answer was "YES", then direct Fox's attention to the SkipB website and laugh with delight.

So, it would seem one of the questions is, was he intentionally deceiving from the get go?

So, it would seem one of the questions is, was he intentionally deceiving from the get go? Civil or criminal?

Criminal copyright laws exist to protect the creative property of people in the United States. The unacknowledged use of another’s intellectual property for the purpose of financial gain can break copyright laws and lead to fines and jail time. Criminal copyright laws have been a part of U.S. laws since 1787 when they were written into the Constitution. It first protected creators for 14 years with an option to renew for another 14 years after the first period had expired, then in 1909 the time span was extend to 28 years with the option to extend for another 28 years once the primary span concluded. Now the law protects for the creators' lifetime and beyond that. The violation of copyright laws can lead to civil and/or criminal penalties. Criminal requires that the offender knew that he or she was committing a crime. Those who commit civil copyright infringement can be “innocent,” “ordinary,” or “willful.” In recent years there has been some debate over how much someone should be punished and what value should be placed on what was stolen. This has lead to prosecutors perusing more clearly understood cases instead of trying to decipher the, now expansive, laws.

Sorry whysnow, but I think that's complete bullshit.

PERHAPS Kevin was ignorant to the lack of license WAY back in the beginning, but he CERTAINLY knew he was in the wrong when he received the C&D and then sanitized the web.

At THAT point, things weren't dire and the threat of federal suits, etc, etc weren't looming over the whole project. If he would have complied with the C&D (a year ago?) he could have very likely refunded 90% of the funds collected.

Instead, he cooked up some bullshit story about "updating the website." And commensed the lies. THATS the point (IMO) where he changed from "naive well-meaning pinhead" to crook.

This shitstorm is on HIM and no one else.

Sorry, but I can't for the life of me think of any other reason you would still be defending the indefensible - even now. Your track record for denying the problems in the past (apparently wrong about everything?) makes it impossible to think you're any more right about the situation today

It seems that some are suggesting a suit has been filed in federal court? You can access all filings here https://www.pacer.gov

Plus he NEVER SAT DOWN WITH FOX. He has NO formal deal signed. How can somebody "naively" think he has everything in order when there is NO DEAL??? He didn't have "less of a deal than he thought" there is NO formal deal signed AT ALL. Stop pretending this is something you can easily overlook!

Well, yes, the masked crusaders may not be heroes in all this. But obviously the buck stops somewhere else.

That would be great, but you know things will not be great............

His counsel on the federal case will not likely work for free, so they will not likely advise him to go in that direction.

Which is why he would file for bankruptcy if he got a huge judgment against him. He wins the lottery after bankruptcy, Fox doesn't get shit.