(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

5 years ago



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#2801 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

His understanding of a "non profit" seems incorrect as well. Just because you are a "for profit" company doesn't mean you don't have the choice to reinvest all revenue back into the company.
I think he was naive and in over his head from the get go.

Yeah. There are a lot of legal requirements of having the non profit status, and a lot of things that could get him in trouble. For example, if he really is a non profit, he would have had to close the fiscal year on a lot of the payments he has already gotten. There are numerous tax implications here. Much bigger problems than I think he can really imagine.

10
#2802 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the FUCK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game.

Chill dude. "I'd rather have someone with skin in the game" conveys the same thing without being deliberately offensive.

#2803 5 years ago
Quoted from Kneissl:

Chill dude. "I'd rather have someone with skin in the game" conveys the same thing without being deliberately offensive.

I said 'please'

#2804 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I said 'please'

OK. This is pretty hilarious.

#2805 5 years ago

I am always amazed how people will fork over thousands of dollars for a pre-order from a company with 0 manufacturing experience. It's one thing to build a prototype, but try manufacturing 100's and this is what you get.

Running a business is difficult - running a manufacturing business is 10x more difficult.

27
#2806 5 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I am always amazed how people will fork over thousands of dollars for a pre-order from a company with 0 manufacturing experience. It's one thing to build a prototype, but try manufacturing 100's and this is what you get.
Running a business is difficult - running a manufacturing business is 10x more difficult.

Where were you 2-3 years ago? You could of saved 250 people from preordering with your incredible knowledge.

#2807 5 years ago
Quoted from TomGWI:

Where were you 2-3 years ago? You could of saved 250 people from preordering with your incredible knowledge.

Funny thing is, I was following the discussion back then and even myself considered ordering one, but never did. Pinball machines are huge complex expensive machines with lots of parts, I can't imagine putting a company together from scratch to build and sell these and then try and offer support once they are shipped.

#2808 5 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

Funny thing is, I was following the discussion back then and even myself considered ordering one, but never did. Pinball machines are huge complex expensive machines with lots of parts, I can't imagine putting a company together from scratch to build and sell these and then try and offer support once they are shipped.

I can't either. I agree with you.
I actually preordered, sent in my deposit and asked and received it back a few days later. I just didn't feel comfortable.

#2809 5 years ago

I do hope they are able to get them produced and out to paid customers. It does look like a very cool machine. Good luck to all involved!

#2810 5 years ago
Quoted from BMore-Pinball:

I do hope they are able to get them produced and out to paid customers. It does look like a very cool machine. Good luck to all involved!

Thanks for the kind words!

25
#2811 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the F*CK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game. I know you like to be in the middle of everything, but this is one area where you have absolutely no business inserting yourself and it is preposterous for you to even suggest it. You do not and will never speak on my behalf.

Your cheerleading and repeated reassurances may have convince some people into staying in this mess well past its due date. Maybe it's best if YOU step aside for once and let others try to clean up.

#2812 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the F*CK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game.
I know you like to be in the middle of everything, but this is one area where you have absolutely no business inserting yourself and it is preposterous for you to even suggest it. You do not and will never speak on my behalf.
There are plenty of trusted, well spoken, and detail orientated people actually in on the project (a few mods on pinside are still in the last I heard). Leave it to them if they want to attempt any sort of legal action or organized plan that THEY see fit.
I personally will only accept the game being built. If at some point Kevin says that is no longer possible then I will cross that bridge at that time. Until this time, I would prefer if loud spoken art critics stuck to critiquing art and leave any sort of mob organization to those ACTUALLY in on the project.

It's an open forum man. If you don't like other people's opinions, this may not be the right place for you. Until I receive my refund, I am still a "preowner". And you certainly don't speak for the pool of preowners. You may have patience and Faith, as Kevin says, but my "patience" is forced by Kevin holding onto my money and delivering NOTHING.

#2813 5 years ago
Quoted from tonyoz:

Has anyone else not got the email? (not that it matters)

I also erratically get update emails, but I've also only paid in the initial $250.

Quoted from PEN:

I have sat on the sidelines and watched/read since the begining. Just curious....About how many Michigan pinheads got in on this?
Side note, the first time I met him was about 2008ish when I was giving away an Arcade Cab. He seemed to be a nice guy with a bit more confidence than ability.
I hope all ends well.

PEN, I got in it with the initial deposit since it wasn't much risk and I'd met Kevin and Aaron (when he was still involved) at MPE and some of the local leagues and liked the guys. Since then I've never received the email to pay the next deposit and beyond that I needed to free up capital and can't stay in on the project.

#2814 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Your cheerleading and repeated reassurances may have convince some people into staying in this mess well past its due date. Maybe it's best if YOU step aside for once and let others try to clean up.

My votes of confidence may have had that effect and I truly appologize if this project fails and people take a loss that they otherwise would not have because they held tight to my vote of confidence. I am actually still confident that something will get worked out and that Kevin will take care of everyone (be it game, refund, or ?).

That said, I still prefer to be on the side of support and with the weight of someone actually with skin in the game than that of a detractor with no vesting.

Every person is entitled to decide as they wish and that has been their personal decision from step 1. For Aurich (a non pre-owner) to even suggest that he should lead some sort of organized effort of those with skin in the project is amusing at best (I take it as insulting honestly).

22
#2815 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Every person is entitled to decide as they wish and that has been their personal decision from step 1. For Aurich (a non pre-owner) to even suggest that he should lead some sort of organized effort of those with skin in the project is amusing at best (I take it as insulting honestly).

Maybe Aurich just doesn't want to see a bunch of Pinside members get fucked over. Whereas you're coming off as extremely selfish at this point...

#2816 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

That said, I still prefer to be on the side of support and with the weight of someone actually with skin in the game than that of a detractor with no vesting.

I see your point - but it gives an outsider perspective as well. Perhaps Aurich and one or two of our best Moderators would constitute a valid option?

#2817 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

It's an open forum man. If you don't like other people's opinions, this may not be the right place for you. Until I receive my refund, I am still a "preowner". And you certainly don't speak for the pool of preowners. You may have patience and Faith, as Kevin says, but my "patience" is forced by Kevin holding onto my money and delivering NOTHING.

I NEVER claimed nor offered to speak on anyones behalf.

You may want to look in the mirror, as I am just sharing my opinion...

I hope you get a refund soon, along with anyone else requesting a refund.
Kevin stated it in the most recent email, so he better come through with the refund of anyone requesting it.

14
#2818 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Please stay the F*CK out of it. You are not a pre-owner and you have absolutely no business trying to stick yourself into a matter at this level that does not pertain to you and has none of your skin in the game.
I know you like to be in the middle of everything, but this is one area where you have absolutely no business inserting yourself and it is preposterous for you to even suggest it. You do not and will never speak on my behalf.
There are plenty of trusted, well spoken, and detail orientated people actually in on the project (a few mods on pinside are still in the last I heard). Leave it to them if they want to attempt any sort of legal action or organized plan that THEY see fit.
I personally will only accept the game being built. If at some point Kevin says that is no longer possible then I will cross that bridge at that time. Until this time, I would prefer if loud spoken art critics stuck to critiquing art and leave any sort of mob organization to those ACTUALLY in on the project.

Actually it has been proven time and time again that the best person to represent is one without a vested interest. This has been proven in almost every area of life. Neighbor disputes, civil lawsuits, etc. The reasoning is that person is most likely to be 100% objective. Making decisions while taking all the emotion and anger out of it. All would benefit better with representation that has not anger or emotion. Again, this has been proven over and over again in at least 50 studies. I can cite if required.

#2819 5 years ago

I'm in. I'm staying in. I've been without the money for over a year now. Just not thinking about it.

But in saying that, I wouldn't wish this scenario on a broke dick dog....

-6
#2820 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Maybe Aurich just doesn't want to see a bunch of Pinside members get fucked over. Whereas you're coming off as extremely selfish at this point...

How am I being selfish by opting to leave my money in rather than trying to get a refund and leave the remaining pre-owners with an added nut punch if this project fails.

If anything (presuming you think there is no longer enough money to refund 100% to all) I would say those demaning a full refund now are the ones being selfish. You are asking for all your $$$ back now even if it means less money back for others later...

Do you think there is enough in the bank to refund 100% to all people?

-7
#2821 5 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Actually it has been proven time and time again that the best person to represent is one without a vested interest. This has been proven in almost every area of life. Neighbor disputes, civil lawsuits, etc. The reasoning is that person is most likely to be 100% objective. Making decisions while taking all the emotion and anger out of it. All would benefit better with representation that has not anger or emotion. Again, this has been proven over and over again in at least 50 studies. I can cite if required.

of course, but Aurich is FAR from a nonbiased outsider in the matter.

He would be like brining in the cousin of the nasty neighbor for a property line dispute.

38
#2822 5 years ago

You're in the first few machines. We know there are parts for about 10 machines right now. Those get built, you get your machine, fuck the rest. Meanwhile I'm clear back around 160, that machine has much less of a chance to see the light of day. So as long as this goes forward for a little longer, you get yours. But if a run to the bank stops it, you don't. That's how it is perceived by someone else, aka me, reading your posts.

-1
#2823 5 years ago
Quoted from johngravenews:

Just asked for a refund but not convinced I'll get it. I'd be happy staying in for the original $250 deposit but too many unknowns now for me
Hell, I'd stay in for a $1000 deposit which would give Kevin $250,000 to help tie down the licences etc.
Such a shame. Probably the strongest licence possible for me. A fully working prototype and it all looks like it's fallen apart.
If Heighway pinball can get the licence for Aliens then Predator must be available on a similar deal.
If they sort the licence deal and offer some transparency then how mmany of us would jump back in?

I'd be more interested if Heighway or Stern did a whole new pin with the liscence with 'features' meaning magnets, side targets, maybe a target that pops up like a monger or Troll type target. Some type of feature found on pins made in the last 20 years.

For real Stern can do this pin more justice, and for sure they could sell more than 1000 pins and surely Fox would rather deal with a larger production run and also rather deal with a real company not some kid who lives in his mom's house and is producing the game in her basement/kitchen. It's almost laughable that Kevin thought he could make these pins and certainly laughable in hind site when you see the Predator pinside logo still has the caption 2013 (lol).

#2824 5 years ago

Alien apparently will have 3 or 4 toys on it, plus color LCD. And it's priced competitively ($6k).

#2825 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

You're in the first few machines. We now there are parts for about 10 machines right now. Those get built, you get your machine, fuck the rest. Meanwhile I'm clear back around 160, that machine has much less of a chance to see the light of day. So as long as this goes forward for a little longer, you get yours. But if a run to the bank stops it, you don't. That's how it is perceived by someone else, aka me, reading your posts.

I presume that whatever is going on with the liscence needs to get 100% figured out before ANY game ever gets finished. #1 or #250, nothing gets built and delivered without the liscence fixed.

If the first batch gets built, then I assume all 250 get built.

I can't help it that you are #160, but I am not being the selfish one here and I have always been in for the good of the entre group of preorders and not ever just for myself.

It is your choice to request a refund (and I hope you get it soon since you want it), but I am not being selfish in this situation at all.

My assumption continues to be that either games get delivered or 100% refund. There are no other options that are satisfactory IMO.

#2826 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anything (presuming you think there is no longer enough money to refund 100% to all) I would say those demaning a full refund now are the ones being selfish. You are asking for all your $$$ back now even if it means less money back for others later...

Just gotta quote this again ... man, you can't make this shit up LOL

SO if you actually get one of those ten games in Kevin's kitchen, will you sell it and distribute the proceeds to those who didn't get games or full refunds??

#2827 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Just gotta quote this again ... man, you can't make this shit up LOL
SO if you actually get one of those ten games in Kevin's kitchen, will you sell it and distribute the proceeds to those who didn't get games or full refunds??

If I get my game, then that means both the liscensing and manufacturing has been worked out. In that case everyone still in will get their game also.

In your hypotecthical of I and 9 others get games but the other pre-owners get hosed and only get 80% of their funds back, then if napstha and all others that get 100% refunds now are going to kick back in the pool and redistribute, I would be happy to chip in and redistribute to ensure equal funds out to all vested people. I am guessing all the people that have gotten refunds already or have recently requested (and hopefully are getting them soon) are not going to be willing to put funds back in...

#2828 5 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

Alien apparently will have 3 or 4 toys on it, plus color LCD. And it's priced competitively ($6k).

That's more like it.

In hindsight, Kevin bit off more than he could chew.

He should have started with an unlisenced pin. Call it Outer Space or whatever. He makes it as Predator layout which is basically a Taxi with less features. Then he sells it, brings it to conventions people like it and buy it, word of mouth maybe he sells 100 units. But he will learn how to build pins, learn how to run a buisness.

You don't give a kid like Kevin $750,000 and feel he is capable of building a pin that can compete with ST or Tron or IM or Met or TWD all of which cost under $5000. It's a sad joke, but people were buying this because they like the movie/theme and Stern had not made a pin of Predator. Any bank in the world would laugh this guy out of the building. So he goes to Pinside instead of a bank and he's sitting on $750,000 to $800,000 in other peoples hard earned money and doesn't even have the decency to account for his delays. He tells Ted all is well, puts Ted and Aaron's good names on the line for his BS, but doesn't have the guts to tell us in person. He was here all happy days before he got his hands on the loot, but now that he has your money he's a ghost.

Stern could totally make a kick ass Predator pin for $4750.

I don't think (honestly) anyone want's a pin with only 2 targets to shoot at, and those being danger targets close to the middle of the PF. Not drop bank like AMH or drop targets like TNT which would at least give you something more to shoot at. No side targets? I know those are more or less just secondary to the main shots like on ST. Or Tron but they can be useful as well as stand up targets next to the ramps like Drone targets or Pirate targets. Come on, am I the only person that sees this is the simplest, least target rich pin since EM days?

Think of IRON MAN side targets and Drone targets, now take those out of IM, take out the magnets and take out the rising Monger figure and you have hardly anything to shoot at besides the main shots. Predator should have side targets (IMO) which could be to reload guns or have a FUEL lane for AMMO or whatever, but clearly Kevin made this pin with the least number of parts possible. Sure the rules are cool, but the layout seems very limited. Look at Taxii, Predator doesn't comes close to the number of shots.

#2829 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If the first batch gets built, then I assume all 250 get built.
.

That's one of the top 5 most naive statements I've seen in this thread (and there is a LOT of competition).

nephaste nailed it with his comment. Your machine is already "on the production line" - safe to say your position is dramatically different than most of the others....

If this thing shuts down right now ( a distinct possibility reading Kevin's last confessions), there will likely be 10 machines out there... Perhaps in various states of completion....but no (ethical) supplier will likely make one more part for Kevin given his misleading/untrue statements about having a license.

#2830 5 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

Your cheerleading and repeated reassurances may have convince some people into staying in this mess well past its due date. Maybe it's best if YOU step aside for once and let others try to clean up.

Good point, and one I echoed a few weeks ago.

Whysnow, instead of this shrill cry for everyone not in to shut up, perhaps you need to consider YOUR culpability in (what has now been proven to be) your completely baseless pumping of this project.

Your shouting down of the critics - especially those suggesting there's a licensing problem should also make you feel a bit embarrassed (at best)....

#2831 5 years ago

I'm not saying it's over.... But even if it was you will be the one person still beating the drum that it's not over.... That's just u, that's where ur heart is...no one will change your mind, with that said best of luck I hope it works out for u

Quoted from Whysnow:

If I get my game, then that means both the liscensing and manufacturing has been worked out. In that case everyone still in will get their game also.
In your hypotecthical of I and 9 others get games but the other pre-owners get hosed and only get 80% of their funds back, then if napstha and all others that get 100% refunds now are going to kick back in the pool and redistribute, I would be happy to chip in and redistribute to ensure equal funds out to all vested people. I am guessing all the people that have gotten refunds already or have recently requested (and hopefully are getting them soon) are not going to be willing to put funds back in...

#2832 5 years ago

Loving the auto corrects of my user name.

#2834 5 years ago

I listened to the podcast. It is some sober advice. At this point its all about picking the least worst option.

-6
#2835 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Good point, and one I echoed a few weeks ago.
Whysnow, instead of this shrill cry for everyone not in to shut up, perhaps you need to consider YOUR culpability in (what has now been proven to be) your completely baseless pumping of this project.
Your shouting down of the critics - especially those suggesting there's a licensing problem should also make you feel a bit embarrassed (at best)....

I am not embarrased one bit.
I made a decision to believe what I was told by Kevin and have vocally backed the project from early on because at the end of the day this is still better than many of the current alternatives IMHO.

It appears I was wrong about the liscensing not having any problems, but that is nothing to be embarrassed about. Oops, I was wrong. Sorry I trusted someone whom I still think is a good pinhead just in over his head currently.

I am proud to be a supporter of new pinball, new pinball startup, and people (Kevin) I still genuinely believe care about the community and pushing pinball forward. I still think that things will get worked out. At this time I have no idea what the outcome will be, but I do think everyone actually involved will get taken care of and that Kevin will make things right.

You may think that is naive. I think that is a choice to be positive even in crappy situations.

If anyone wants out, then get out. If you are getting out then please do whatever you feel is needed to extract yourself.

I personally still see zero positive or fair outcome for all if I were to get out or make a run on the bank. I have said it many times, but I made my decision long ago when I sent a big check to hold my spot. I would say the only naive people are those that thought this was a no risk situation or thought they had any control after they sent the money. Once I hit send, I put my faith and trust in the project and liek in real life, pulling out just makes a mess.

If anyone should be embarrased it is people that have been phoning fox, people that have had no proof but have been detractors, people that have made a conscious effort to try and actively create more roadblocks and trouble to what is obviously a tough thing from the onset. Many of those people are here and posting on a regualr basis. Many of those people have taken to sending annonymous emails to many people for the past few months in an effort to create a run on the bank back then. These are the people that should be embarrased. They claim to have known all the gory details yet they have done nothing positive with them. Real pinheads would have stepped in and tried to get things back on track rather than toss on more fuel to the fire.

#2836 5 years ago

Pulling out might make a mess, but at least you're not stuck with a bad decision for the rest of your life...

I said it before, I think it is highly unlikely I will actually get a refund. But I would regret not trying to get it back just as much as allowing someone to steal from me.

I don't even have a t-shirt to show for my "faith and dedication."

#2837 5 years ago

Are there any salaries being drawn from the Skit-B organization?

#2838 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

If anyone wants out, then get out.

I think that's the issue, same with JPop.

#2839 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Pulling out might make a mess, but at least you're not stuck with a bad decision for the rest of your life...
I said it before, I think it is highly unlikely I will actually get a refund. But I would regret not trying to get it back just as much as allowing someone to steal from me.
I don't even have a t-shirt to show for my "faith and dedication."

I like the analogy continuation.

At this point I don't think anyone has stolen from me, then again I have not asked for a refund and been ignored.

#2840 5 years ago

Has anyone gotten any type of response on their refund request?

#2841 5 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Pulling out might make a mess,

: o

28
#2842 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It appears I was wrong about the liscensing not having any problems, but that is nothing to be embarrassed about. Oops, I was wrong. Sorry I trusted someone whom I still think is a good pinhead just in over his head currently.

Actually given the huge mountain of evidence indicating a problem with the license existed, I think your strenuous claims of there being nothing wrong with the license is something that you should be hugely embarrassed about.

-7
#2843 5 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Actually given the huge mountain of evidence indicating a problem with the license existed, I think your strenuous claims of there being nothing wrong with the license is something that you should be hugely embarrassed about.

What you saw as evidence of a problem I still see as evidence of meeting limited liscence requirements and adjusting as more things come to light. The only 'evidence' I have been given to this actually being a liscence problem is the current email. Aside from that it has been all jumping to conclusions follow by more jumping to conclusions. There is zero doubt that this is a bad situation and Kevin is in way over his head at the moment, but I see little choice in being doom and gloom and still don't think I have any control over the current situation, so why not stay as positive as I can?

I am not embarrased one bit, no matter how much some boob tells me I should be. or how many detractors give you tumbs up. Some of them have actively choosen to not be a positive change or 'save' people for oevr 6 months even though they claim to have had much of this info for a long time.

There is nothing wrong with being wrong. I own it. 'I believed Kevin when he said there was nothing wrong with the liscence, and it is now apparant there are issues with the liscence' I believe that Kevin is still attempting to get things worked out and I beleive that Pinball News will hopefully be publishing some more details soon.

I did not believe ***** when he told me 6 months ago that he and his friends were contacting FOX to get to the bottom of the claims and to make sure they were looking out for the greater good of pinball. I did not believe ***** when he claimed that Jody D******* was working with him to contact FOX and that their were liscence issues. Similarly I don't believe the annonymous emails that agree with much of what ***** was saying back at expo last year. I am not embarrased for not belieiving them, especially since 'liscence issues' are only a small fraction of the things they have claimed.

I still choose to believe in the project because honestly it is still better than the alternative.

#2844 5 years ago
Quoted from Buschjs:

Has anyone gotten any type of response on their refund request?

No. I've been asking for a refund since the beginning of this year (January) & have not received any kind of response from Kevin. I've even sent several of the refund requests as replies to personal messages that Kevin had written to me in the past, so I know he's receiving them.

#2845 5 years ago

"license"

#2846 5 years ago

Just to be clear, I have zero interest in leading some kind of discussion about how to get money back. I'm willing to start a thread if no one else feels comfortable being in the hot seat and being "blamed" for things, but it's not my business, and frankly it sounds painful and uncomfortable. No thanks.

Here's the reality though: this project is in really, really bad shape.

Whysnow, I'm not trying to pick on you, I feel bad for everyone in this situation. I don't think calling you a cheerleader or whatever is going to help anything.

But you know as well as I do what those anonymous emails said. And you really can't deny that everything in them is pretty much coming to light just as they said. I can confirm that Martin is involved, and has talked to Kevin. That part is true too.

And so it's hard to say "well, okay, 4 out of 5 things they claimed have been proven, but maybe the 5th isn't true!" Maybe it isn't. But at this point I think you've got to assume it is.

And the 5th part is that the legal shit with Fox is bad. Everyone should know that it's claimed that it's going to get ugly, and we're past friendly negotiation chit chat.

I cannot verify that. I'm not posting the direct claims because it's not my style to post emails I don't have permission to. But I can't in good conscience not say that. It's the reason why, beyond every other reason that's already enough, I say it's time to seriously talk getting out.

Get your money back if you can, while you can, and file this one under "giant disappointment".

-22
#2847 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am not embarrased one bit.
I made a decision to believe what I was told by Kevin and have vocally backed the project from early on because at the end of the day this is still better than many of the current alternatives IMHO.
It appears I was wrong about the liscensing not having any problems, but that is nothing to be embarrassed about. Oops, I was wrong. Sorry I trusted someone whom I still think is a good pinhead just in over his head currently.
I am proud to be a supporter of new pinball, new pinball startup, and people (Kevin) I still genuinely believe care about the community and pushing pinball forward. I still think that things will get worked out. At this time I have no idea what the outcome will be, but I do think everyone actually involved will get taken care of and that Kevin will make things right.
You may think that is naive. I think that is a choice to be positive even in crappy situations.
If anyone wants out, then get out. If you are getting out then please do whatever you feel is needed to extract yourself.
I personally still see zero positive or fair outcome for all if I were to get out or make a run on the bank. I have said it many times, but I made my decision long ago when I sent a big check to hold my spot. I would say the only naive people are those that thought this was a no risk situation or thought they had any control after they sent the money. Once I hit send, I put my faith and trust in the project and liek in real life, pulling out just makes a mess.
If anyone should be embarrased it is people that have been phoning fox, people that have had no proof but have been detractors, people that have made a conscious effort to try and actively create more roadblocks and trouble to what is obviously a tough thing from the onset. Many of those people are here and posting on a regualr basis. Many of those people have taken to sending annonymous emails to many people for the past few months in an effort to create a run on the bank back then. These are the people that should be embarrased. They claim to have known all the gory details yet they have done nothing positive with them. Real pinheads would have stepped in and tried to get things back on track rather than toss on more fuel to the fire.

Enlighten us. For $5,000 what is predator better than? Lots of old pins you could get they are much better and proven. This pin is just blah.

20
#2848 5 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Enlighten us. For $5,000 what is Predator better than? Lots of old pins you could get they are much better and proven. This pin is just blah.

Stop it! Go away. Not the time or place.

14
#2849 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Stop it! Go away. Not the time or place.

I was going to tell him to fuck off, but you're so much nicer.

#2850 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Stop it! Go away. Not the time or place.

Well.....it's the place................Joey

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