You are giving him the benefit of the doubt... admirable.

He famously stated that he obtained the license by calling a number on the back of the DVD. Knowing what we know now, does anyone think this actually happened?

When images/video went off his website inexplicably last year it was said "we are updating our website" and "we do not have much time to keep our website up to date.". Knowing what we know now, does anyone think this is actually what happened?

From Kevin's own emails its easy to put the pieces together. He was *obviously* served a C&D from FOX which resulted in the website/youtube/facebook cleanse of predator images/video/text. Right then and there, that instant, things were in really, really bad shape.

Not until March 18th 2015 was it officially confirmed from the source that there were license troubles, but I think what is not being said in this email that is trying to hold the ship afloat is that their troubles are not recent... they are many many months in the making...

I retain that Kevin is a nice dude and started this project with passion, enthusiasm and genuine good will. Somewhere along the way... things got scary... and lies were told to keep the ship from sinking. They had to have been.

It is a B-movie.

It is from 1987, decades ago.

It is so hot, that the DVD lives in the $5 bin at Wallmart

Reading between the lines, I have to wonder why all the obfuscation by Kevin. If things are unsettled like obtaining a new license, or securing a new manufacturer, or closing up shop, what's to be gained by the continued misdirections and the less than up front details. I'm pretty sure that the IP holders aren't telling Kevin, "don't say a word or the deal is off", or that his manufacturer is telling him, "don't say a word or I'm not going to make your games". I can't wrap my head around why not just be upfront with everyone and lay it out in detail, what happened from A to B, and what's going to happen to get from B to a Final game. If there is no final game, then let everyone know. It's not like there's going to be a "bank run" on refunds as it's been pretty evident, that no refunds are forthcoming.

Everyone is hoping for the best, but if you sit back and look at it objectively it just doesn't look good:

- All instances of Predator wiped

- Game is 3 years delayed

- No definitive answers from Skit-B in 6 months

- No refunds in several months

- No communication with customers asking questions

The writing I'm afraid is on the wall, but like good pinball enthusiasts many are hoping against hope. I sincerely wish those faithful holdouts are rewarded.

I don't doubt he did license Predator in some way.

It just may not be in the way he thought he did.

-

Kind of the same thing with Lebowski, eh?

Not sure the 'B' move is going to be less when it comes to pinball, and does not matter if Predator is a B title or not. The $25 number is by all accounts in the right ball park. Now typically there is going a minimum that is going to put the license cost at a $25K minimum, so at a lower number of machines the cost per machine would be higher. But the overall statement that it is not a huge sum of money is certainly correct.

Exactly.

Look at all those licensed, limited production toys that collectors buy.

They are not expensive, and they only produce 100 to 250 of them.

Actually, according to Phil, as of EXPO 2014... there was no final license... only the backglass had been tentatively approved at that point.

Thank God, in the end, that all got worked out and the game is going to be OK...

But that was a team of people... who charged a ton of money for their game... who have a facility and a warehouse... and even then needed many revisions, and the help of a pinball legend to get it done.

Yes... the situations are similar (sadly).. but this one does not look to have a happy ending like DP.

Under the circumstances, what choice do these people have... but to hope. Might as well. Getting angry wont get anyone their game... or their money.

One thing is for sure ....
We are all in a " world of hurt " right now.

No, that's not at all what was said. They had the license. What they didn't have was sign off on some of the elements, specifically the actor's faces on the playfield, and some of the issues that came with getting those actor approvals, like removing the gun.

So the risk was showing things that weren't approved. Not that they didn't have the license.

You can't just get a license, pay them the money, and then do whatever you want.

Those toy manufacturers have blanket IP licenses that allow them to produce toys over and over...One of the largest is these guys http://necaonline.com/category/licenses/movies/predator/

i'm wondering where the $25/game license fee comes from. Doing a little googling I found this http://www.harriersandheroes.ca/apps/blog/entries/show/6540948-update-to-firefly-licensing-quest
which seems to indicate that FOX IP licensing is much more than $25 per widget.

Come on vid. You're a reasonable guy. I respect your input and worldly experience but none of that is reasonable. The license may not be what he thought? Seriously? Ineptitude isn't a defense. I can't fathom any instance where someone of the intelligence on the order of building a pinball machine doesn't ask, "ok, what rights specifically does this license grant me?" That's bullshit of the highest order.

Comparing it to tbl is a stretch; and I have my doubts about their ability to get to market. Phil said their cavalier attitude was jeopardizing the license. Never was it a question of, oops we didn't realize what kind of license we had. I never got the inclination they were operating without the correct license, rather pushing the boundaries to the point of jeopordizing the whole thing. Apples to oranges.

He is in the worst negotiating position possible if he had no license at all. But even if he had one, just not the one "he thought" (lol), he's still in a terrible position, especially if he continued to ask for payments after Fox had sent a C&D letter (if that's what happened). Cash to Fox, and probably lots of it, is the only way they can make this work. Is there enough money to appease Fox for violation of their IP?

Exactly....

I know licensing, because I've done licensing.

But most people don't know anything about licensing.

Most bands have a heart attack when they have to buy a $90 license before the CD replicator will stamp their CDs because they have a cover song on it. They have no idea that they have to pay to use someone's IP.....

DVDs... CDs... They still make these things?

They have to keep making them for people who shop at Wallmart.

Ill just keep quoting my post to bump it for Kevin

Go listen/read one of the roger sharpe interviews where he discusses licensing costs.

I've spoken with a c-level guy at fox and that $25 number is on target. Keep in mind most product licensing is a percentage of wholesale price (typically 10 to 15%), pinball however is an exception given the price/cost model

Fox is not going to waste their time having contracts drawn up for $25 x 250 units ($6250). They've probably spent much more on their lawyers looking into this so far.

"Friends, Romans, countrymen, The evil that men do lives after them; The good is oft interred with their bones"; So let it be with Kevin........ This guy is trying to make things right, before everyone makes a run on the bank, let the man resolve the issues. Yes he frankly screwed this up much worse than it needed to be with his silence but again like TBL if the issues are on the mend, the community (this is still a community right?) should help him not bury him.

Is he? Or is he just trying to buy more time again? I'm sorry, but it's gotten to the point that I can't trust this man's word anymore. A man's word should be his bond.

Don't ever be angry at your friend, be angry at yourself for being with that friend.

They license movie theme Kleenex, so that probably makes them more than anything @ 10% of .79 cents.

These are not the boobs I came to this thread for.

Here is something a little better:

He let that chance slip months ago when he started lying about the license issues....

I didnt know if she was facing forward or backward! At first, it was a Boob pic!

Those are the kind of boobs you can enjoy from any direction.

Generally it's not going to be that simple. There will be an up front lump sum, and then some kind of % or flat rate. So no, it wouldn't be less than $7k to do this. Maybe it would be $50k up front, and then $25/machine for instance. There's a barrier to entry.

As I've indicated, typically there is something like a $25k min for those reasons. Fox does not license for pinball machines to make money, but to promote a brand, but they certainly won't do it to lose money

yeah the $50k thing makes more sense.

What does Martin or the Podcast guy have to say about these "talks" and did it ever happen?

Martin has definitely talked to Kevin and other people involved.

The notable podcast I assume is Nate from C2C. And we already know he's done a show on all this and is interested.

I have no doubts you know licensing. Skitb not knowing what they have is inexcusable and is beyond an acceptable excuse. Spin it whichever way, it was Kevin's responsibility to know. Period. Kevin was fully aware he needed a license. How he handled what he had is the crux of it. If he really didn't have what he thought he had, as he has proffered, is something only kevin knows. That piece of information (which we most certianly will never find out) would determine if his actions were willfull or not.

Not disagreeing that this has become a mess but it shocks me how personal some of the attacks have become. Does anyone really think Kevin's done all this to scam people? Of course not. And he was very upfront that he was building a business from a garage so it should be no surprise to all the fortune 500 CEOs on this board that there would be issues. If anything he's tried too hard to accommodate everyone, especially at the beginning - frequent posts, welcoming design feedback and suggestions, $5k price tag, etc. He gets pretty far with design, orders parts from suppliers, etc. and then the problems start for a rookie entrepreneur. I imagine he's working 18hr days trying to un-F this for the best scenario being losing money on 250 machines. I'm sure he's trying to work this out so he can get the machine done and fulfill his commitment - dragging his feet on refunds ain't great but it beats a run on the bank where he has to have the business declare bankruptcy and everyone takes a material loss. The only issue I see is at some point he's either got to get it fixed or fold it in, continued delay has run its course. I wish him and the buyers the best and hope it gets worked out.

Not a run on the bank, I wanted a refund long before this latest news. I asked for a refund in February and was told by Kevin that it would take a little time but would be processed. More lies im sure and just like always no ill wait for days or weeks on a response.

We waited two weeks for that pathetic excuse for an update that doesnt say anything about games that are being built or when we can expect refunds.

Sadly that's an M.O of a mob, hence the Cesar reference.

Sorry but im not gonna sugar coat anything for a person that is no friend of mine and has basically stolen $4750 from me and has been lying outright for a very long time and pumping false hope to his customer base. Being nice or a great guy doesnt mean im just gonna overlook this and put on my rose colored glasses. Also if you don't have money in on this game I don't wanna read patronizing remarks on how we (the 250) should handle this. Here's all I know, I want my money back, Kevin sell a kidney, sell your car, sell other machines you have, I don't care just get me my freakin money. Also Kevin, stop lying to people and be straight with them, now is the time to communicate more than any other time.

Intent is not really that relevant from a legal standpoint. Whether actual or constructive, either is actionable. The latter is harder to prove, but not particularly difficult.

I am not disagreeing with you...but I love this so much, and have waited so long to repost...

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/74/the-landlord-from-will-ferrell-and-adam-ghost-panther-mckay

I know, I am no help...but maybe a laugh...

pearl.jpg

I'm also familiar with licensing deals (although I'm a newbie with regard to Kevin and the pinball industry in general) and I know that companies do a significant amount of due diligence BEFORE licensing their IP/brand. They go into ANY deal with skepticism at best as they can't afford to devalue the property. If you were an executive at FOX and had to make a yes/no decision on what Kevin wants re Predator in a pinball machine, how could you possibly ever approve the deal after reading this thread???

For those of you that are still in the pot, get out while you can... IMHO...

Sure but I wasn't talking about legal action. I was just responding to the defense of "ip license is difficult and confusing."

Who knows where the licensing stands at this point (only Kev knows), so maybe we should start thinking about wrapping this up ourselves if a nuclear solution is required.

What if Kevin just shipped the populated playfields, cabinets, circuit boards "as is"; calling it his Jungle Killer game?

What if a torrent appeared with the Predator game code, the cab graphics and translight art, anonymously on the net?

What if people just had the decals and translight printed as a group? Some small mom and pop print shop would love to run 250 sets of decals. For about $2 a square foot, you could have the decals laminated with the shiny clear plastic like JJP charges $400 for.

Ideal? nope.

Doable? yep.

In a way, I like the shadiness of the FIY (finish it yourself), more than the real deal.

While you can was probably 8 months ago. At this point we that want refunds are being held hostage by Kevin.

If I know im not getting my money back send me the game with no ip property on it. Something is always better than nothing.

I've got no skin in this game, but have been following this regularly for over a year now....this is f*cked up. As a pinball fan, I have been anxiously awaiting the day someone posted their unboxing and watching more game play videos and seeing all the mods that would spring up.

Feel bad for everyone involved in this.

I agree, not a scam. The intent was always to build pinballs, not take the money and run.

But does anyone feel like Kevin was truthful? It seems like he's perpetuated a lot of lies to people. I simply don't believe that the license trouble was just discovered last week, and "oh, I guess we'd better solve that".

I would really like to hear Rod from the Pinheadz Podcast's take on this as (a) he has interviewed Kevin on the show before so there is a relationship there and (b) he has pre-ordered one himself.

This entire fiasco reminds me of....

1975_Dale_Brochure_(10209742214).jpg

http://jalopnik.com/murder-transsexuals-and-the-price-is-right-the-story-464820740

Are you referring to the cabinets in the photo below, posted on VirtuaPin's Facebook page about 4 months ago?

You remember VirtuaPin, right?

The photo that Aaron at FAST Pinball was asked not to share?

The cabinets with "PREDATOR" in bold red letters on the lower cab and the Predator silhouette on the side of the backbox?

THOSE cabinets?!?

Predator Cabinets.jpg

I support my moderators. good job