(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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  • Latest reply 33 days ago by Cobra99
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There are 18269 posts in this topic. You are on page 54 of 366.
#2651 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Who's the idiot now?

Step back everyone, we have a big shot here!

#2652 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Yeah, and then I saw the game and bailed. I grew up on Predator man. So when I heard the theme, I had to have one. And I got lots of people to offer up their spot. Who's the idiot now? I put my money in the market instead. Now I can buy 5 predators for the price of one pre-order. Yeah, this fuckwad did that.

5 Predators... Or 2 pairs of white sandals.

#2653 4 years ago

Hey Ted, instead of lurking and down voting my post, how about commenting here. You clearly think I'm wrong by suggesting he's lying so enlighten us. Is what Kevin said in his email congruent to what he said to you by phone? You had a positive vibe after speaking to him. Do you still hold that same opinion? Kevin got a two week reprive largely based on your interaction with him. Im curious if what he told you jives with what he's telling everyone else via email. image.jpg

#2654 4 years ago

I liked you better Kendeda when you were on self imposed hiatus. Whatever happened to that?

#2655 4 years ago

Whoops, wrong thread. lol

19
#2656 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Why is anyone even excited for this pin? The theme is AMAZING but the game is just so BLAH. When Kevin first revealed, nobody had anything more down than $250, right? After seeing this pin, why did anyone say, "Yeah, I have to have it!"
Everyone's chasing the next Tron LE, Big Bang Bar with these limited run games. Not gonna happen again guys. That ship has sailed.
Are we witnessing the first boutique collapse? Who knows. I do know this. If you invested this money in the stock market this year, let's just say in EA sports. You'd almost have doubled your money. Great pre-order guys.

Only thing worse about the situation is having you getting involved in this thread again. Half way joking here. Please don't try to make this thread all about you again or an eject will be implemented.

-2
#2657 4 years ago
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:

Only thing worse about the situation is having you getting involved in this thread again. Half way joking here. Please don't try to make this thread all about you again or an eject will be implemented.

No, you're right. I'll duck out. I'm not even in out this thing anymore. It's not about me. I hope the buyers get there pins. Just really made people's hard earned money is getting frozen and people took money without knowing how to run a business. Just flat out wrong.

#2658 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

I bet if we took a poll of people who thought Skit B is doing this theme justice, 95% of people would agree with me. Come on man, are you blind? It's 2015! A pinball machine with no Toys, no magnets, nothing innovative at all!!! Well a weird guy handing from nowhere and a painted skull, that's it. Oh and black lights that don't work. I'm sorry, this license deserves more. You disagree?

To be fair - the simplicity of the is what made it seem like it could get done by a small upstart. Simple design + good license + good code + "low" price can = a good game...like a Stern Pro like Iron Man or Tron. I think most who bought into it understood it wouldn't be a Williams game...but something cool by a "fan" who knew how to actually build a game.

Quoted from kaneda:

Well and that mentality is now crushing the JPOP buyers. Literally, that 17K in the stock market over the last 4 years would have kicked back 50K by now with almost any quality stock.

Again to be fair to Skit-B ...at least there was a GAME. I think most were able to see what Predator was before committing to it. No one EVER knew what Jpop's games were going to be, who was programming them, who would build them....that was a true leap of faith for those who went for it.

#2659 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Literally, that 17K in the stock market over the last 4 years would have kicked back 50K by now with almost any quality stock

Yes because everybody always triples their money when they buy a stock.

11
#2660 4 years ago

I think a talk with a lawyer is in order. Ill spend more money then I spent on predator just to stop this lying thief from ever ripping people off again. Kevin if you read this, ive sent you multiple emails, text messages and posts on this forum for weeks now, refund my money.

#2661 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

I bet if we took a poll of people who thought Skit B is doing this theme justice, 95% of people would agree with me. Come on man, are you blind? It's 2015! A pinball machine with no Toys, no magnets, nothing innovative at all!!! Well a weird guy handing from nowhere and a painted skull, that's it. Oh and black lights that don't work. I'm sorry, this license deserves more. You disagree?

The rule-set is innovative and the game is a blast to play! If I could order one for $4750 and have it within a month I would do it in a second.-especially given the limited nature of the pin. With that being said I didn't order one because I don't have the patience or the faith in Skit-B to lay down that much money and wait.. and wait.. and wait... and see if this game ever gets built. Maybe if there was more transparency and truthfulness I would feel more comfortable but I decided a while back that pre-orders weren't for me. I really hope these get made and I can't wait to play a production model!-hopefully soon...

#2662 4 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Rob, part of the reason I'd ask for a refund is that Kevin was obviously lying even to his close friends and business partners. Aaron was reporting in good faith what he was told, and he got thrown under the bus by passing along lies without knowing it.
How are you going to trust that guy going forward?
Pinheads are pretty forgiving if you're just straight up with them. But if you lie and hide the truth it's hard to ever go back.

“Oh, what a tangled web we weave...when first we practice to deceive.”

19
#2663 4 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

The issue/problem that I have with the posts made by Aaron/FAST is that what he said, and the way he said it, was not on the basis of relying on what he was told by Kevin.
I will let others interpret those posts for themselves, but for me, those posts come across as very strong and definitive statements that clearly imply personal knowledge of the facts. That obviously wasn't the case. So for me personally, Aaron takes a bit of a hit in the credibility department as well.
Sorry.

Rob/everyone,

I have been dealing with all of the recent revelations as well. Predator was never my problem. Our interactions were focused around other projects. Whenever I would mention the fuss going on with Predator license I was given a response that sounded fine. When I compared the experience Kevin described to other licensing scenarios I had personally been familiar with, there was reason to assume it was as it was described. In hindsight, I regret commenting at all on something I was not a part of.

As some of you know, I am the guy willing to have the "tough" conversation with friends/colleagues when it's needed. When the Predator problem began to put other projects at risk, I decided to address it head on. No holds barred. I told him no matter what the facts are, as your friend I will help you navigate this mess and we will work things out between us. That I understand panic and self-preservation. That I understand how difficult a situation he has gotten himself into. It was only then that the whole truth came out.

I have read a lot of words that have been used to describe Kevin in this thread. Evil he is not, naive? Oh my yes. I have been working through the details with Kevin, as a friend and advisor. Helping him sort out where to go from here and to truly be prepared to consider all options. I talked to him last night for a while before sending the message he did. I know the avenues he is pursuing to try and tidy things up. If they work out, great. If they don't, he knows what he needs to do. It was hard for him to send that message last night without including those details, as they were not finalized. I encouraged him to share what he did so that he could give the 2 week update he promised.

I am disappointed in the fact that I was mislead. More specifically, that my assumptions were not corrected. Hindsight being what it is, I regret not being more aggressive on the Predator topic with Kevin sooner. Maybe then I could have offered real help in correcting the problems based on the facts and not speaking in defense based on my uncorrected assumptions.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#2664 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

Well and that mentality is now crushing the JPOP buyers. Literally, that 17K in the stock market over the last 4 years would have kicked back 50K by now with almost any quality stock.

What does the stock market have to do with anything?

For most folks purchasing a pinball machine this is play money, not money which was ever going to be dedicated to an investment portfolio.

I just hope all of the folks involved in the Predator fiasco get their cash back.

#2665 4 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

What does the stock market have to do with anything?
For most folks purchasing a pinball machine this is play money, not money which was ever going to be dedicated to an investment portfolio.

He's a pinvestor.

#2666 4 years ago
Quoted from nephasth:

Sleep tight in your ninja turtle jammies...

You leave the Ninja turtles out of this! They are innocent!

#2667 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

When the Predator problem began to put other projects at risk, I decided to address it head on. No holds barred. I told him no matter what the facts are, as your friend I will help you navigate this mess and we will work things out between us. That I understand panic and self-preservation. That I understand how difficult a situation he has gotten himself into. It was only then that the whole truth came out.

When exactly did you discover the "whole truth"?

#2668 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I am disappointed in the fact that I was mislead. More specifically, that my assumptions were not corrected. Hindsight being what it is, I regret not being more aggressive on the Predator topic with Kevin sooner. Maybe then I could have offered real help in correcting the problems based on the facts and not speaking in defense based on my uncorrected assumptions.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Sometimes it's hard to see posts that are critical of someone that you consider a friend without feeling a strong need to defend them and it sounds like that's largely what happened here.

You did indicate in your prior post that you considered Kevin a friend, so I think some of us did see the potential for bias there.

Learning experience...and time to move on.

#2669 4 years ago

lets add a new poll....... what year will this pin officially be released?

any guesses??

muchoproblemos.jpg

Quoted from DocRotCod:

So what time is it in SkitB time?

#2670 4 years ago

More fluff, does anyone think kevin really has any intention of following through with refunds? He added that line into the letter to try to ease our minds thinking if refunds were available things arent as bad as they seem. Our money is as good as gone. I say to those of us that are requesting refunds that if the refunds arent given we should pool together to get legal help. This has become nothing more than a con.

#2671 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I know the avenues he is pursuing to try and tidy things up. If they work out, great. If they don't, he knows what he needs to do.

If the avenues do not work out I'd be concerned about the part "he knows what he needs to do." Because everyone getting a refund seems unlikely, right? We've seen numerous pictures of bags of parts and cabinets being made so clearly a lot of money has already been spent. I can't imagine how those costs are recouped to refund everyone?

Pred.jpg

#2672 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

If the avenues do not work out I'd be concerned about the part "he knows what he needs to do." Because everyone getting a refund seems unlikely, right? We've seen numerous pictures of bags of parts and cabinets being made so clearly a lot of money has already been spent. I can't imagine how those costs are recouped to refund everyone?

It probably depends on whether he was operating under limited liability or not. I'm no expert but I think there would definitely have to be a bankruptcy involved to get out of returning the funds in full.

#2673 4 years ago

I just feel bad for poor Ted taking heat for trying to help the community with getting information.
No good deed goes unpunished mi amigo

#2674 4 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

I'm just gonna say it.
This game never comes out.
Jpop's games never come out.

I really hate that for them if that's how it all ends up.

I'm extra frustrated that I think either/both of the projects could be saved, but it would require Kevin/Jpop to step back and let someone else run the show. Someone with a decent amount of business/lean experience.

Those people don't work for free or out of the goodness of their heart. I love pinball, but I'm not giving a thousand hour time investment to someone just because I like the industry they are in.

#2675 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

More fluff, does anyone think kevin really has any intention of following through with refunds?

yes

#2676 4 years ago

I still wonder how he set this company up as a non-profit.

#2677 4 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

I still wonder how he set this company up as a non-profit.

Well at the rate he's going, this venture will most assuredly be "not for profit".

Seriously though, I wonder the same. A commercial enterprise as a not for profit entity. Perhaps ice can speak to that. He's versed in tax law.

#2678 4 years ago

isn't the NFL a non-profit ?

#2679 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

isn't the NFL a non-profit ?

Was just talking about this at work today.

15
#2680 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

In hindsight, I regret commenting at all on something I was not a part of.

Your black & white claims that the license was fine had a lot to do with buying Kevin several more months.

Quoted from fastpinball:

It was only then that the whole truth came out.

We're still waiting for the whole truth, he's still being purposely unclear about pretty much everything.

#2681 4 years ago
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:

Our money is as good as gone. I say to those of us that are requesting refunds that if the refunds arent given we should pool together to get legal help. This has become nothing more than a con.

Unfortunately if the money is truly all spent, legal help is not going to do anything but result in more lost money, even if you use a lawyer doing it on contingency and he recovers a percentage of the money back from Kevin, the lawyer will take a percentage and very little will get back to the buyers. For those involved, best case is that somehow Kevin figures out how to navigate through this.

To me the more interesting question is, if Kevin came back and said, "we have resolved the license (and here is the proof) and the game will be built by <insert valid manufacturer name here>, but will now cost $5995" -- what happens?

#2682 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

if Kevin came back and said, "we have resolved the license (and here is the proof) and the game will be built by <insert valid manufacturer name here>, but will now cost $5995" -- what happens?

earth.gif

#2683 4 years ago

I've talked to Kevin more than a few times.

He told me how much the licensing costs were.

I asked a few pointed questions and he always answered without any hesitation.

-

But remember that licenses are only good for a short while, and then you have to renegotiate if you want to keep them active.

Remember that any artwork has to be approved (Google how many Demolition Man translights got rejected before Snipes signed off on his likeness).

Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.

Remember that a movie license does not necessarily allow you to put logos and artwork all over your website or T-shirts.

#2684 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

To me the more interesting question is, if Kevin came back and said, "we have resolved the license (and here is the proof) and the game will be built by <insert valid manufacturer name here>, but will now cost $5995" -- what happens?

That's the course of action most likely to result in a game. If they retain 100 sales (minimum to make it worth any manufacturer's while) that's 125k extra to work with. 75k should cover licensing, leaving 500 extra per game for 3rd party assemble.

They still wouldn't make money, but could at least get out from under things.

#2685 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Unfortunately if the money is truly all spent, legal help is not going to do anything

I don't think anybody is assuming the money is all spent, he would have some left to actually go to production. Legal help could get what is left back into the hands of the buyers ASAP so more isn't lost. It's a % recovery vs. total loss.

#2686 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

To me the more interesting question is, if Kevin came back and said, "we have resolved the license (and here is the proof) and the game will be built by <insert valid manufacturer name here>, but will now cost $5995" -- what happens?

Licensing is not some huge amount of money.

It can cost huge money to keep redoing artwork.....hiring legal help....going to court when you are not properly licensed, but the actual license cost is quite low.

#2687 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

But remember that licenses are only good for a short while, and then you have to renegotiate if you want to keep them active.
Remember that any artwork has to be approved (Google how many Demolition Man translights got rejected before Snipes signed off on his likeness).
Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.
Remember that a movie license does not necessarily allow you to put logos and artwork all over your website or T-shirts.

So...you're saying that Kevin has a terrible memory?

#2688 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I've talked to Kevin more than a few times.

He told me how much the licensing costs were.

I asked a few pointed questions and he always answered without any hesitation.

I think you're being kind to think at this stage his problems are just from having an out-of-date license.

#2689 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

but the actual license cost is quite low

Is that so? How many things have you licensed with a major world famous IP owned by a billion dollar multinational corporation?

12
#2690 4 years ago

Basically, either give me my money back or give me the game I paid for, no more of the Mickey Mouse shit. Sell your moms house, I don't care; you made the bed you now lie in after you took money from customers claiming the project was ready to produce product.

#2691 4 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

That's the course of action most likely to result in a game. If they retain 100 sales (minimum to make it worth any manufacturer's while) that's 125k extra to work with. 75k should cover licensing, leaving 500 extra per game for 3rd party assemble.
They still wouldn't make money, but could at least get out from under things.

The play at this point will likely be more than the 250 machines made available, and anyone who is not a current pre-order will pay more than $5k.

The 250 was always some weird arbitrary number, and since that deal for 250 apparently doesn't exist (maybe never did), the new deal will likely allow for more.

Still doesn't fix the OTHER license issues (Arnold, Ventura, music, art, etc).

#2692 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.

I do recall a long way back when we were all discussing what the most expensive part of the build was that Kevin came back and said that the rights to long tall Sally was the most expensive part of the build.

#2693 4 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

I think you're being kind to think at this stage his problems are just from having an out-of-date license.

Maybe out of date, maybe no license for music, maybe no approval for playfield art, maybe ......

#2694 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I've talked to Kevin more than a few times.
He told me how much the licensing costs were.
I asked a few pointed questions and he always answered without any hesitation.
-
But remember that licenses are only good for a short while, and then you have to renegotiate if you want to keep them active.

Kevin himself admits though that the license he "had" wasn't what he thought it was.

Quoted from vid1900:

Remember that any artwork has to be approved (Google how many Demolition Man translights got rejected before Snipes signed off on his likeness).

There's no way I believe that the existing artwork was approved. And your Demo Man example is a great one, because it's Arnie and Ventura that make me so doubt it was.

Quoted from vid1900:

Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.

Agreed. Pretty sure that was just overlooked.

Quoted from vid1900:

Remember that a movie license does not necessarily allow you to put logos and artwork all over your website or T-shirts.

And yet the logo and artwork was all over said things. For a long time. Then suddenly, poof, vanished. Did his memory of not being allowed to do that suddenly come back to him?

There's just no way to explain away what happened. It doesn't have to be malicious, but there's really no good way to say it went down.

#2695 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

Unfortunately if the money is truly all spent, legal help is not going to do anything but result in more lost money, even if you use a lawyer doing it on contingency and he recovers a percentage of the money back from Kevin, the lawyer will take a percentage and very little will get back to the buyers. For those involved, best case is that somehow Kevin figures out how to navigate through this.
To me the more interesting question is, if Kevin came back and said, "we have resolved the license (and here is the proof) and the game will be built by <insert valid manufacturer name here>, but will now cost $5995" -- what happens?

That's exactly the scenario I laid out earlier, but I expect the cost to be closer to 7 to 8K like every other game. Let's face facts...There are maybe four or five companies that could take over this project as Kevin has alluded to:

Spooky Pinball - Publicly stated they are not
Stern Pinball - Gary wouldn't touch this with a 10' pole. I think he'd let it sink and then go after the IP and release his own version
JJP Pinball - I think this is most likely...The relationship is already established. But the games are vastly different in the tooling that JJP has set up vs what Predator was. So you're likely talking a complete redesign which isn't going to sell for $4750.
PPS - They are building 8K MM's, so no way they are cutting the bill of materials in half. Plus PPS is in the same boat as they aren't even building their own machines.
Heighway Pinball - I don't know squat about this company, so that's the wildcard in my scenario.
Dutch Pinball - They're having their own licensing issues and again, their games are 8K.

So, I honestly do not see any scenario where buyers are going to receive a 4750 pinball machine with a predator license.

#2696 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Licensing is not some huge amount of money.
It can cost huge money to keep redoing artwork.....hiring legal help....going to court when you are not properly licensed, but the actual license cost is quite low.

not saying licensing is, and I also believe it to be significantly lower then what Ben suggested.

My point being is if those issues got resolved, and he needed higher price to make it happen, regardless if that money is for license, art, production or whatever, the question is, if it would now take more money to do it, but it seemed all the ducks were in a row what would happen? Would folks bail, pony up the extra money, etc.

#2697 4 years ago
Quoted from kaneda:

I bet if we took a poll of people who thought Skit B is doing this theme justice, 95% of people would agree with me. Come on man, are you blind? It's 2015! A pinball machine with no Toys, no magnets, nothing innovative at all!!! Well a weird guy handing from nowhere and a painted skull, that's it. Oh and black lights that don't work. I'm sorry, this license deserves more. You disagree?

I BOUGHT the game because I WANT the f%#$ing game!!

#2698 4 years ago
Quoted from Jared:

Is that so? How many things have you licensed with a major world famous IP owned by a billion dollar multinational corporation?

Even major blockbuster movies license for $25 a game.

How much do you think a B-movie that is 30 years old is going to license for?

-8
#2699 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Even major blockbuster movies license for $25 a game.
How much do you think a B-movie that is 30 years old is going to license for?

Predator is not a B-movie from decades ago... its a hot collectors item still on toy store shelves to this day. Its very, very hot product which is a part of a series that has movies made recently with the IP.

#2700 4 years ago

Kevin is also not in a good negotiating position. They knew he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars already from selling their property.

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