A lot has changed between 2011 and now. It was all unicorns and rainbows back then.

I wonder if this game even has actual cad drawings. Seemed like the prototypes were hobbled together.

Kevin should sell the company to Stern or JJP and they just put this license into mass production with a re-design.

I love the game play and ruleset. I actually don't care about the theme.

I hope anyone wanting out gets a prompt refund.

When did he get rid of the support email address?

So let's read between the lines here, and put together the pieces.

In the beginning there was a story, about a license, obtained from calling the number on the back of a DVD case. Stranger things have happened.

There were all kinds of playfield photos, cabinet photos, gameplay videos, walk throughs, etc. In hindsight, lots of red flags, but at the time all seemed well and exciting.

This is important, because obviously whatever license Kevin thought/claimed he had allowed all of that.

Fine.

Here's where it gets shady for me. Suddenly all of that gets pulled. Web site redesign excuses, all that nonsense, which was obviously bullshit. Clearly Kevin was trying to hide something, cover his tracks, was getting paranoid, or something else along those lines. There's simply no other explanation that makes sense, shit was *scrubbed*.

Now, here we are, all this time later, and it's suddenly "oh, the license we had wasn't what we thought it was". Well, first of all, no shit. But secondly, how are you claiming you just discovered this, when you pulled everything so long ago? That doesn't pass the smell test.

I can't see a scenario where Kevin hasn't been lying on some level to everyone for ages. Maybe he really thought he had a license and was naive enough to think it was good. But then why pull everything?

People have claimed Roger Sharpe is a friend of the family. So seems obvious who's he's being called in to help. I have no doubt Roger can secure a Predator license, who's better for that? But at this point does that even make any sense at all?

Kevin obviously can't run a business. He's obviously been lying to people for a long time, in one fashion or another. It's pretty tough to see the existing game, as is with the art etc, being approved.

A "real" license costs money. Who knows if Roger is working for free. Going with doubt it, this is his business, and it's work, he'll need to get paid.

Where is this money coming from? The payments you've made were supposed to be for building games, parts, etc.

And now, there's a 3rd party to pay? It's not Spooky. No way it's Stern, they're not touching something like this. So gotta be Jack. Already a relationship announced, so makes sense. And Hobbit is late, getting things on his line is probably attractive to Jack. But he's gonna want to get paid for it. This isn't Kevin's friends helping him build 250 games (lol) it's someone with a real factory, who wants real money for using it.

Is it impossible for this to all happen? No. I can see scenarios where it works. But they're pretty far fetched at this point. If I had money in I'd be trying to get it out right this moment. Sucks to say that, but I think you've got to call it like you see it on this one. Someone who's been deceitful at best, incompetent at best, and simply isn't in a position to offer any assurances that you should believe going forward. Both from a practical reality standpoint, and from a character assessment.

If anyone thinks I missed something or interpreted something wrong feel free to add on.

The inability to simply tell the truth with Kevin and John is astounding. They have NO shame.

I really don't think these guys understand the damage that is being done to whatever "brand" they might have.

I can't imagine any "investor" bailing these deals out. With Predator at $4750 there is ZERO profit and nobody is going to buy game #2. John is a freaking mess because he won't pay anybody and is trying to do everything himself. Failure.

Isn't it obvious there never was a license? Why not tell the truth, because it will come out eventually, be honest with people and let them know the details of what is going on.

Who will ever trust these guys again? How many vendor bridges has John burned? F ing terrible.

If there's a shred of anything to the story of Kevin having "a" license (but not the right one), he needs to post whatever documents he has and explain how it was an honest mistake, if there's a hope in hell of saving this and his reputation.

To cut a long story short it sounds to me he is no closer than 12 months ago to being able to produce pins. What a an absolute shambles!

So really he's saying he's funneling his bullshit story through credible channels in hopes that people buy it? Noice.

Makes sense but I doubt it is possible. Most of these business agreements are confidential. Fox does not want to disclose the cost of a licence for example (especially if it was inexpensive!).

Some bug with the "Edit" calendar...?

Frolic is right. Kevin needs to post documents if he expects people to buy this story. No more hiding behind vendors to propagate his BS. Specifics like names, addresses, contractual terms, and licensing fees can be easily redacted.

Agreed.

New saying is "Pinball licensing is Hard"

I dont see why the paperwork matters.. He's proven extremy naive and/or a fibber when the truth is uncomfortable. Agree with aurich, he didn't/shouldn't only just now known there was a license problem when he had to take down the website, which was awhile ago. Let's presume best case, they actually did just ask him to take the website off.. That should of been a giant red flag to him saying "oh, I guess I don't know what my terms really were if I crossed the line here with a website.. Maybe I should get more stuff in writing" - the fact that he decided to just remain ignorant (this is *best* case speculation).. Speaks enough.

The paperwork matters because people want to know if he was in good faith, at least initially.

I liked this thread better when there was boobs.

Sell the company? Is this serious?

Who would buy a "company" that is in the situation that Skit-B is in? To commit business suicide?

For real, there isn't really much value to buy. What are you getting out of it? Maybe a few cabinets and parts, and MAYBE a license?

My father owns a medical equipment shipping business in MI, and he knows that it will be near impossible to sell his company when he goes to retire because in the end the company is just a couple trucks and the his personal reputation with his clients.

When I first met the guys I couldn't imagine the hours they must have put in to this labor of love. Their enthusiasm was infectious. I jumped in first day. Art work reveal didn't work for me. Talked to em at the next Expo and damn if I wasn't energized again. I bailed when the deal started to change. I think SKIT- B got in over their heads. Unfortunately there comes a time when you got to open the doors and let the light in. For their own good and all those with money involved I hope he opens up completely to them. Best intentions don't fly when other peoples hard earned money is involved.

I'd be more inclined to believe Stern might pick up the license for the new Predator movie, but I really don't think they give a flip.

fastpinball said:
Seriously man, you have no idea what you are talking about re: the licensing. Why keep stirring things up with "I think..." comments like this? You want to tell people "everyone is going to get screwed! be ready for my 'i told you so!'" or "maybe things are all fine and what we were told is true. Cant wait for the owners to get their games!" That's like me saying "you might get in a car crash on the way home tonight! so be ready for my 'i told you so'" while also saying, "I am sure you will get home just fine."
Has it ever occurred to you (or many others) that the terms of the licensing agreement may restrict where, how and in what manner the Predator IP can be used in promotion of the game and the company making the game? Do you know anything about or have you had any experience with the various terms used in IP licensing? Since Skit-B has sold out the # of games they are allowed to make, why risk upsetting the IP holders by possibly infringing on the terms of a licensing agreement? It's easier to just pull videos floating around and the unnecessary content from the website so they can focus on more important tasks at hand and make the IP holder feel good about things at the same time.
These Predator threads are getting horrible. Can we all just say it together and agree to something we all know? Kevin/Skit-B are not the best communicators. Kevin is a friend and I know he knows this and I also know he is making efforts to improve this fact. But with only so many hours in the day, the priorities tend towards the tasks related to making the games and after that, its time with family. That's about it.
I do know the psychological effect that threads like this can have on you when you are working as hard as you can on something. How eager would you be to pull up pinside.com forums after an exhausting day and read these shit fiesta threads? So for anyone who feels that they need to speak up for "the benefit of all buyers" or "for the pinball community" or because "someone needs to say it" ask yourself if it will do more harm than good. Or whether or not it is something that should be addressed with Kevin/Skit-B directly vs. in a forum.
Skit-B had a whole lot of support (and really still does from many) in the early "fun" stages of starting a pinball company and making their first game. When the weight of the endeavor kicked in and it got harder, that is when the real support and encouragement is needed. Not everyone knows how to ask for help or knows what kind of help they need right away. But if you felt compelled to pre-order a game to give Kevin/Skit-B a shot at doing something cool in pinball, then I ask you all to use the same judgement in whether or not to give Kevin the benefit of the doubt when asking questions like "is this a scam?" or "is there REALLY a license???" etc etc.
I support Kevin as a friend, as an entrepreneur and as someone who wants to create something cool. I give that support because others have given it to me in the past and because you pay that shit forward.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

I thought Kevin would hit that one more directly in the email, since the licensing topic is a hot one with all the DP stuff going on. Pretty simple. Licensing says you cannot promote the IP online, social media, in marketing, etc. You get what you pay for. Since it was a limited run that was sold out, paying for the opportunity to promote as such would have been a waste of money.
Aaron
FAST Pinball

I would also respectfully ask to revoke my "boob" status that I posted here in response to a post by Marcus "explaining" the license issue based on posts from Aaron at FAST:

There's nothing to "buy".

If you want a Predator pin maybe it's time to ask Heighway to make one after Alien. They obviously have the relationship with Fox already.

I would also like to just point out that Heighway announced Alien last year. They keep promising they're gonna show art soon. Nothing yet. That's not a dig at them, it's an illustration of what the license stuff can be like. Long ass delays and approvals etc.

Rob, part of the reason I'd ask for a refund is that Kevin was obviously lying even to his close friends and business partners. Aaron was reporting in good faith what he was told, and he got thrown under the bus by passing along lies without knowing it.

How are you going to trust that guy going forward?

Pinheads are pretty forgiving if you're just straight up with them. But if you lie and hide the truth it's hard to ever go back.

"Boob" status hereby revoked.

While I don't have any experience in pinball manufacturing, I do have a bit in other areas and this hits the nail on the head. In my experience, you better have everything documented to the smallest detail...every I dotted and T crossed. They will build exactly to your specs...even if there is a typo in a spec that would be obvious to anyone with a first grade education. When you ask "why did you put that upside down?", they point to the spec that should have read "mount Up sign down through the ..." but which mistakenly reads "mount Up side down through the..." And, I can assure you the cost for rework will not be absorbed by the manufacturer.

Kevin is a genius, you guys just don't see it

Maybe, just maybe, he wants everyone to pull out...That would explain his bizarre behavior. Why? Because he can't afford to make a machine for $4750. He's going to lose his shirt. Let's assume safely that each machine costs $1K more to make....Kevin will lose $250,000 on this endeavor. Get everyone to back out and ask for a refund, delay as long as possible while earning interest on said money, and you perhaps cover some of the expenses to date of a few cabinets and playfields and some plastic toys.

Then when only a few die hard souls are left, you announce a re licensing, with a new manufacturer....and guess what? A new price of $8K for the beloved IP of Predator.

I dropped off the list awhile back, and of course all of the above is just wild conjecture, but think about it....it's plausible. More so, than many of the other cloak and dagger crap he's been feeding us.

The issue/problem that I have with the posts made by Aaron/FAST is that what he said, and the way he said it, was not on the basis of relying on what he was told by Kevin.

I will let others interpret those posts for themselves, but for me, those posts come across as very strong and definitive statements that clearly imply personal knowledge of the facts. That obviously wasn't the case. So for me personally, Aaron takes a bit of a hit in the credibility department as well.

Sorry.

Vindication (by a mod no less)!

I suspect he has a cad diagram of some sort for the playfield, since he was able to get those routed.

No one is going to build the game without money upfront -- given all that has happened. In addition, as others have pointed out, ALL the parts will need to be on hand before anything starts and that is going to require a lot of capital and hard to see too many people here giving him more money towards their games before they see games coming off the line -- sounds like a real catch-22 He is likely going to have to get a loan to get this done and that is not going to be easy.

I have to wonder if that is really the case. If Roger is a close family friend, then how the hell would Kevin not have talked to Roger originally? At a minimum you would ask him to review the terms, etc. but would you not have had him negotiate for you? Plus, why would you even need a number off the back of a DVD, Roger would be able to point you in the right direction or make an introduction. Roger probably knows as much about licensing as anyone in the coin-op business and he would certainly know what things you need to negotiate into it, and what limitations in a license might make it unworkable.

The full story around the license, what he had, what he could do, why he thought he could do more, etc. is clearly a story that needs to be fully uncovered. Hopefully that will be the case when these podcasts and news story get published. If I was a buyer, I would certainly also want to know more about how these games are going to be made and where the money to do that is going to come from.

While I certainly believe Kevin is committed to making this happen and wants it so no one gets screwed, it is certainly getting harder and harder to see how he is going to accomplish that.

Regardless of whether Skit-B had some type of license deal, the problem with licensing going forward will be additional costs.

Regardless of who is still in, there are more people pulling out now. Hopefully those on the wait list are ready to step up. I realize that's rainbows and unicorns.

Predator's original price was based on a frugal, basement type build. Apparently an unrealistic model for this project.

My opinion: to go forward, there needs to be some shifts in goals and expectations by Skit-B and those who want a Predator pinball machine. Sincerely hoping for a happy ending.

sadPredator.jpg

drain

Ben Heck said this before as well, and I think I agree. Especially having someone else manufacture it for them. They just don't have the margins to absorb any type of disaster.

I think there is a LOT to learn from Alien here, since it is the same studio. We haven't even seen a backglass yet and you know that would be shown if they could, and its been how many months.

Good evening once again, fellow pinballers.  The atmosphere around our Predator project has gotten pretty thick, so please allow me to clear the air on all of this stuff.

...

Thank you all again for your continued support,
-Kevin

Literally every update I've read in the past 6-12 months reads the same to me...

NTSH.gif

I really hope those who want out get at least some if not all their money back.

ALIEN!....never mind that where's Full Throttle!?

Was just announced that it's going into production at the end of the month. Less than 2 weeks from now.

Presumably there are a bunch of parts, cabinets and the bank account with all the pre-order cash.

There is also presumably some kind of license deal with Fox, albeit not a good one?

They could buy the business for a nominal $1 from Kevin just to get him out of it and work with the licensor to put out a good product for mass production, rather than the limited 250 run. It would restore confidence in the project and possibly stop a run on the bank, not to mention if people heard JJP or Stern was picking it up there could be a ton more buyers for a powerful license like predator.

Who is this "family friend" and what does Martin at pinball news have anything to do w/this? Why is it every Kevin letter is more of a headache then a relief. There is NO WAY he constructed these letters by himself due to all the twisted grammatically correct sentence structures. He is getting some sort of coaching.

I think Kevin mentioning Martin is him trying to get ahead of the story, pretending that this is how he wants to reveal things.

I'm just gonna say it.

This game never comes out.

Jpop's games never come out.

All eyes on Spooky, Multimorphic, Dutch & Heighway. Hope some little guys can pull it off AND stick around. A few maniacs in this fickle business threaten to destroy everyone else.

Why is anyone even excited for this pin? The theme is AMAZING but the game is just so BLAH. When Kevin first revealed, nobody had anything more down than $250, right? After seeing this pin, why did anyone say, "Yeah, I have to have it!"

Everyone's chasing the next Tron LE, Big Bang Bar with these limited run games. Not gonna happen again guys. That ship has sailed.

Are we witnessing the first boutique collapse? Who knows. I do know this. If you invested this money in the stock market this year, let's just say in EA sports. You'd almost have doubled your money. Great pre-order guys.

Clearly, everyone should like everything you like. Please tell us more

You nailed it.

-Theme
-Rarity

It was ABSOLUTELY the BBB/TronLE mentality. Shit - that's why I jumped on inititally...I don't even like the theme, but I was like "eh, if I get sick of it I'd could probably sell it and at least break even or make a few bucks". At the time the game was announced, that was the reality of pinball. Limited = SURE THING from a financial standpoint. Now the ship has sailed -but it's too late for those who put the money down, unfortunately.

I bet if we took a poll of people who thought Skit B is doing this theme justice, 95% of people would agree with me. Come on man, are you blind? It's 2015! A pinball machine with no Toys, no magnets, nothing innovative at all!!! Well a weird guy handing from nowhere and a painted skull, that's it. Oh and black lights that don't work. I'm sorry, this license deserves more. You disagree?

Oh yeah, that's right, you were the <edited> trying to buy someone else's preorder to screw someone on the waitlist out of a game. I remember now. Sleep tight in your ninja turtle jammies...

Well and that mentality is now crushing the JPOP buyers. Literally, that 17K in the stock market over the last 4 years would have kicked back 50K by now with almost any quality stock.

Yeah, and then I saw the game and bailed. I grew up on Predator man. So when I heard the theme, I had to have one. And I got lots of people to offer up their spot. Who's the idiot now? I put my money in the market instead. Now I can buy 5 predators for the price of one pre-order. Yeah, this fuckwad did that.

If we get one more stock investment scenario in this thread I'm going to lose my shit.