(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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#17351 2 years ago

I agree.
In the grand end, even in the most optimism, the value that will be available, less all costs and fees, might not make people happy in terms of money, but justice hopefully will be served.
For some, this would be their first experience with a case like this in our courts.
For Hilton, and the above replies, even if Hilton and everyone else, both sides being right.
The reply above is correct, maybe a few pizzas. If it wasn't complete, it's worth the parts.
I hope this thread can move forward beyond this crusade, and back to an understanding of the court proceedings.
I had game #13, and started communication from day 1, and have been with many of you since the start.
At some point, for all of us, it's about reaching closure.

#17352 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

what about the custom parts? So you know he bought the back alley creation toys. What do those have any value? Probably not. He never had the ramps made so you got nothing there. And even if he did they be custom so they be of no value anyways. Who wants black Williams cabinets with the word "predator" on the side? I saw Paul at the Ann Arbor pinball show as a vendor, he was selling blank cabinets for $200. And those had no stickers on them which are certainly more versatile than ones that say "predator" on the side. To sell those somebody would have to strip the cabinet graphics off them. That's a lot of work. Are you gonna pay somebody to do that? Are the playfield worth anything? I guess it would be a neat wall hanging but a lot of negative feelings comes with that, I'm not even sure it's worth it for that aspect. I believe Kevin bought those from spooky originally for 400 dollars each. So there isn't really even a lot of value with the play field.
in the end chasing down these magical and mysterious and probably nonexistent parts, it's just a waste of time. In the end nothings really will come of it, if they could even be found, and if they even exist. The only person that gets anything out of this whole ordeal is the lawyers. Maybe a buyer would buy all the stuff for a what a thousand dollars? Then divide that by the number of people in the class action suit, and everybody ends up with a pizza, and the lawyers buy a new car. If people really need a pizza, see me at Chicago Expo, and we'll go out and get some Chicago pizza together and I'll buy. Maybe get a beer too. I don't really need much of an excuse to go to a famous Chicago pizzeria...

Actually this is incorrect. ANY & ALL parts, supplies and equipment used to perpetuate a fraud are in fact recoverable assets for the victims no matter where they are located. Your argument that these items have little to no value is irrelevant.

#17353 2 years ago

You can't sell the game because it wasn't licensed. So wouldn't this apply to all the parts that have Intelectual property on them? So if the playfield, cabinets and plastic toys are recovered, they can't be sold anyways right? So they don't hold any cash value. How would recovering any of this stuff help those that lost money? Am I missing something here?

#17354 2 years ago

While I have no desire to go back and search, I'm pretty sure Kevin had posted a photo showing a significant amount of parts for doing a half dozen games or so.

-5
#17355 2 years ago

The explanation from Clay make the most sense in this situation, The lawyers are really going to be the only party that will be receiving any money in this situation and it is time to move on to bigger and better things. Just my opinion.

13
#17356 2 years ago
Quoted from flyhigh:

The explanation from Clay make the most sense in this situation, The lawyers are really going to be the only party that will be receiving any money in this situation and it is time to move on to bigger and better things. Just my opinion.

Really?

As a victim of a crime resulting in a $4500 theft from me, I hope you'll be OK if I ignore your opinion "to move on to bigger and better things".

13
#17357 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Really?
As a victim of a crime resulting in a $4500 theft from me, I hope you'll be OK if I ignore your opinion "to move on to bigger and better things".

The point was to not bother wasting time chasing down all smaller nickel & dime stuff that has already been scattered to the four winds, and focus more on the more expensive assets that are still held by Kevin and the group of people that were directly involved with the project.

Trying to chase down all the collectors who may have ended up with various parts & pieces is not going to be a good use of a lawyer's time, especially with little evidence or paper trail to go on. For example, is it worthwhile to chase down a $4 pop bumper cap at $100+ per hour, with a potential time investment of several hours of research per lead which was likely an in-person cash transaction with no paper trail? Better to focus on the big ticket items and large transfers of cash that can still potentially be reclaimed.

-10
#17358 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

The point was to not bother wasting time chasing down all smaller nickel & dime stuff that has already been scattered to the four winds, and focus more on the more expensive assets that are still held by Kevin and the group of people that were directly involved with the project.

Trying to chase down all the collectors who may have ended up with various parts & pieces is not going to be a good use of a lawyer's time, especially with little evidence or paper trail to go on. For example, is it worthwhile to chase down a $4 pop bumper cap at $100+ per hour, with a potential time investment of several hours of research per lead which was likely an in-person cash transaction with no paper trail? Better to focus on the big ticket items and large transfers of cash that can still potentially be reclaimed.

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. The law has a responsibility to track down everything regardless of costs. The bulk of the money is still tied up with Paypal, but that doesn't let Kevin's backdoor sales of assets off the hook.

#17359 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. The law has a responsibility to track down everything regardless of costs. The bulk of the money is still tied up with Paypal, but that doesn't let Kevin's backdoor sales of assets off the Hook.

No, it's not right that Kevin gets to benefit from those "backdoor sales".

Unfortunately, it's just not feasible or practical to track all those loose parts down. Months of time and lots of money has already been spent to try to find out where it all went, but so far, those efforts have not been fruitful. That's why I'm suggesting that's it's better to go after the larger assets that are more likely to be recovered and that actually have a paper trail, than the nickel & dime stuff that hasn't turned up despite all the searching already done.

It's not the best use of the available resources. Spending more time trying to hunt down the nickel & dime stuff means more money getting eaten up in lawyer/court costs, and less funds available for reimbursing the victims.

The math on it simply doesn't make it very worthwhile. The idea is to recover as much as possible with the least amount of effort, not the least amount as possible with the most amount of effort.

#17360 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Sorry, but I don't agree with this statement. The law has a responsibility to track down everything regardless of costs. The bulk of the money is still tied up with Paypal, but that doesn't let Kevin's backdoor sales of assets off the hook.

You are missing the point. While you may be correct that all the parts are subject in this case, as you stated "at all costs". Who do you think pays those "costs"? Say the plaintiffs do get the money from PayPal, then they will give that money to the lawyers for tracking down all those parts. At some point, you have to know when to let something go that's not worth the "cost" to retrieve. I would rather take a chance and use the lawyers time more efficiently to go after something more significant.

#17361 2 years ago

Let's just agree to disagree on where each of us would draw the line in the sand.
I'll temper my comments to get this thread back on track.

13
#17362 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

The law has a responsibility to track down everything regardless of costs.

In a bankruptcy? The trustee's job is to make practical decisions to maximize the value of the estate so the creditors will be made as whole as possible, not to ensure that everyone that "profited" from this fiasco is called to task. Spending dollars chasing pennies is not in line with that goal. Of course it may still be worth going after the Predator games and Predator parts if they're perceived to have some value. But if you're counting on the trustee to pursue "justice" for you regardless of the cost, you're in for disappointment. The trustee is just supposed to maximize the value of the estate, and that includes deciding that some claims aren't worth pursuing.

#17363 2 years ago

ForceFlow hit "post message" before I did.

#17364 2 years ago

Let's say we find Kevin's secret bunker, excuse me, Kevin's secret underwater bunker and find 8 PF & a bunch of plastic parts.
How does the trustee generate monies from these items?

#17365 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

How does the trustee generate monies from these items?

Hold an auction.

#17366 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Hold an auction.

So you can sell these items that don't have Fox's approval because there are only a few of them or they are not complete or something?

The problem with an auction is of course we're the only ones that would want these items.

#17367 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

So you can sell these items that don't have Fox's approval because there are only a few of them or they are not complete or something?
The problem with an auction is of course we're the only ones that would want these items.

That's what I was asking in a previous post. How can you sell products for money that have intellectual property on them?

#17368 2 years ago
Quoted from Lonzo:

That's what I was asking in a previous post. How can you sell products for money that have intellectual property on them?

Maybe it would be considered counterfeit material to be destroyed.

#17369 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Maybe it would be considered counterfeit material to be destroyed.

Technically, it's not counterfeit like a knockoff handbag. It just wasn't properly licensed.

They might be able to make an argument for it being an unproduced prototype. Plenty of that stuff surfaces and gets sold. For instance, the sheets of artwork rejected by the licensor for the demolition man backglass were probably sold at some point.

14
#17370 2 years ago

Cliff's Notes: don't throw good money after bad.

#17371 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Technically, it's not counterfeit like a knockoff handbag. It just wasn't properly licensed.
They might be able to make an argument for it being an unproduced prototype. Plenty of that stuff surfaces and gets sold. For instance, the sheets of artwork rejected by the licensor for the demolition man backglass were probably sold at some point.

Sounds illegal

#17372 2 years ago
Quoted from Lonzo:

While you may be correct that all the parts are subject in this case, as you stated "at all costs". Who do you think pays those "costs"? Say the plaintiffs do get the money from PayPal, then they will give that money to the lawyers for tracking down all those parts. At some point, you have to know when to let something go that's not worth the "cost" to retrieve.

I agree, it is generally referred to as "the law of diminishing returns"

As to 'auctioning off' the playfield with FOX's IP that they do not approve, FOX would probably deny that action and either claim ownership, seek destruction, and not allow it to be sold.

#17373 2 years ago
Quoted from redman822:

As to 'auctioning off' the playfield with FOX's IP that they do not approve, FOX would probably deny that action and either claim ownership, seek destruction, and not allow it to be sold.

Or completely ignore it since it's not worth the lawyer time.

#17374 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Maybe it would be considered counterfeit material to be destroyed.

Then it would not be gaining monies for the class it would be punishing the folks that paid money to get the game or its pieces. The parts do not have value if the are Predator parts since they cannot be sold. If they are standard components, it could be argued that these were not bought with the your money, but instead, they were bought, barrowed, or taken off of other games.

If your goal is to be punitive, be straight up about it. I think that is misdirected but I did not get cheated here. Seems like you guys, who liked the game so much that you forked over $4k+ to own one, would want the opportunity to play one at an event or a museum. Being punitive will only guaranty that you never will.

It would be better to use Hiltons $500 to help the class.

#17375 2 years ago
Quoted from Xdetroit:

Then it would not be gaining monies for the class it would be punishing the folks that paid money to get the game or its pieces.

Actually it's punshing themselves be receiving less monies having to pay for the leg work to find it.

When the hell is Kevin back in court?

#17376 2 years ago
Quoted from flyhigh:

The lawyers are really going to be the only party that will be receiving any money in this situation and it is time to move on to bigger and better things.

Better the lawyers get it than the (alleged) criminals.

#17377 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

Better the lawyers get it than the (alleged) criminals.

19
#17378 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I don't know Tim at all and I have no access to his machine. He lives close by to me but I do not know Tim. And even if I did I suspect he would let me anywhere near his machine.

Quoted from cfh:

Tim only lives about 20 miles from us. I have personally seen his machine, and inventoried and photographed it.

#17379 2 years ago

Oh snap!

#17380 2 years ago
Quoted from Xdetroit:

If your goal is to be punitive, be straight up about it. I think that is misdirected but I did not get cheated here. Seems like you guys, who liked the game so much that you forked over $4k+ to own one, would want the opportunity to play one at an event or a museum. Being punitive will only guaranty that you never will.
It would be better to use Hiltons $500 to help the class.

There will not be enough funds to pay all of us back in full. My personal goal is for every person involved with Skit-B experience the maximum jail time possible, as much financial restitution to the victims as possible and a bonfire as large as possible.

If the assets can be auctioned to benefit the victims, I'm OK with that. If the assets are deemed illegal and must be destroyed, I'm OK with that too as long as ALL the assets are destroyed. I don't want some games mysteriously popping up 4 years down the road because it's super rare.

#17381 2 years ago

So you are saying... a lot can happen in a year's time?

#17382 2 years ago

(wouldn't quote for some reason)

Quoted from cfh:
I don't know Tim at all and I have no access to his machine. He lives close by to me but I do not know Tim. And even if I did I suspect he would let me anywhere near his machine.
Quoted from cfh:
Tim only lives about 20 miles from us. I have personally seen his machine, and inventoried and photographed it.

I noticed that too. Probably needed to document it so it would be easier when he was allegedly building his own. I have no dog in this fight, but by the comments alone, my opinion is he has the game, otherwise who would have that much information about it. Secondly, the fact people said they saw it, why would others make that up?

#17383 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Secondly, the fact people said they saw it, why would others make that up?

Which people said they saw it? EDIT: We should document that

-1
#17384 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

So you are saying... a lot can happen in a year's time?

It wasn't a year, almost all his posts say "one year ago" so its seemingly is within roughly the same period.

#17385 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Which people said they saw it?

Top...men.

#17386 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Which people said they saw it?

If what Hilton said is true, that people have told him they have seen it. I don't know any of these people, but seems like an odd thing to make up just to drag someone's name through the mud. Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true? Seems pretty believable to me.

#17387 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

It wasn't a year, almost all his posts say "one year ago" so its seemingly is within roughly the same period.

Click on the text, and it will reveal the actual date.

In this case, it was June 2016.

A lot can happen in a year.

#17388 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

If what Hilton said is true, that people have told him they have seen it. I don't know any of these people, but seems like an odd thing to make up just to drag someone's name through the mud. Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true? Seems pretty believable to me.

From what I've read, there has been nothing beyond accusations and offers for rewards for photos/info.

-2
#17389 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Click on the text, and it will reveal the actual date.
In this case, it was June 2016.
A lot can happen in a year.

I did, it was literally less than a month later.

#17390 2 years ago
Quoted from starfighter:

Let's just agree to disagree on where each of us would draw the line in the sand.
I'll temper my comments to get this thread back on track.

OK, do you think you will ever see anything more than 10 cents on the dollar? That's on the high end...after the lawyers are done.

#17391 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true?

Nope, typical pump and dump from that guy.

#17392 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

If what Hilton said is true...

Quoted from Procrastinator:

I don't know any of these people, but seems like an odd thing to make up just to drag someone's name through the mud.

No one knows any of these people but you're already accepting it as a fact because Hilton said so?

Quoted from Procrastinator:

Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true? Seems pretty believable to me.

Nothing would make me blindly accept anything Hilton said as the truth. He's got his end goal and he'll do whatever he has to get there.

#17393 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

OK, do you think you will ever see anything more than 10 cents on the dollar? That's on the high end...after the lawyers are done.

I have no idea what the restitution will be, but I do know that Kevin's cellmate's mom will be getting a new car from a few happy people.

#17394 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

OK, do you think you will ever see anything more than 10 cents on the dollar? That's on the high end...after the lawyers are done.

This has been argued ad nauseam in this thread. for most it is going thru the process of making life for KK and crew as hard as possible and that the full extent of the law is used on them.

#17395 2 years ago

Honestly, It's really none of my concern. I will say, as someone from the outside I believe the accusations, as the guys posts alone show how much in depth knowledge he knew of what was needed to complete the pin. Someone is making that list just for fun?

Also, as someone who has spent good money going after bad on principal alone, I would want every penny back, no matter what it costs me. At some point it's not about restitution, it's about punishing people who have behaved immorally. People will obviously have different opinions, and sometimes it's absolutely smarter to walk away, but I totally understand the desire for "revenge" more than most.

#17396 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

No one knows any of these people but you're already accepting it as a fact because Hilton said so?

Nothing would make me blindly accept anything Hilton said as the truth. He's got his end goal and he'll do whatever he has to get there.

Reading comprehension problem? Where do I say it's fact? I said it seems believable to me.

Quoted from Procrastinator:

If what Hilton said is true, that people have told him they have seen it. I don't know any of these people, but seems like an odd thing to make up just to drag someone's name through the mud. Do you not think what Hilton is saying is true? Seems pretty believable to me.

#17397 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Reading comprehension problem? Where do I say it's fact? I said it seems believable to me.

True. I though you inferred it, but don't see it now.

#17398 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

I did, it was literally less than a month later.

What are you talking about? The first "Clay quote" that SirScott was from June 10, 2016 ( https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/216#post-3194754 ) the second quote was from yesterday, Sept. 18, 2017. (https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/347#post-3972835 )

#17399 2 years ago

Absolutely incorrect. I'm going on his own words. I've attached it so this whole "a lot can happen in a year" can be settled once and for all. 4 weeks later he went from never being able to see it to having seen it and having pictures. Lots of motivation and interest for a guy with nothing to do with it, seemingly.

IMG_0954 (resized).PNG

IMG_0955 (resized).PNG

#17400 2 years ago
Quoted from Procrastinator:

Absolutely incorrect. I'm going on his own words. I've attached it so this whole "a lot can happen in a year" can be settled once and for all. 4 weeks later he went from never being able to see it to having seen it and having pictures. Lots of motivation and interest for a guy with nothing to do with it, seemingly.

I've seen pictures of it too. There were a few photos going around. That doesn't mean I've seen it in person, though.

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