I think I know the status. We're like, 50 % of the way through the bankruptcy case, right? To determine Kevin's solvency? Or ability to pay something? It's been ruled that he can't declare bankruptcy, correct?

Haven't even begun the trial to actually decide if he's a crook or not, owes damages, and goes to jail?

The only ruling of any kind so far is against Amanda, right? For the house payment and other Predator funds that were funneled to her?

What a disaster. All this time and at this point we're trying to claw a trailer away from his mom and prove conspiracy with VirtuaPin.

What have I missed or gotten wrong?

The bankruptcy continues, he just can't exclude the assets he foolhardily tried to hide.

Once that's all settled and creditors (victims) get back what's left after the lawyers probably get most of it, some D.A. will get to decide if they feel like going after him for criminal charges, e.g. scamming and/or attempted bankruptcy fraud.

It's not investing to buy a pin before they are made is it? If i pay someone upfront to build a custom table i'm not investing in that dudes business I'm just buying a product and he needs the money upfront for the materials.

When you go to a Ford or Chevy dealership and order a car to be built to your specifications are you an investor? I think not.

QSS

Is this $500 PER machine?

Sidenote:
If I send you a picture of the coffee table I built with preadotor parts can I get say HALF of your reward monies?

I mean there is over $250 worth of LEDS in it, not to mention I splurged for invisiglass, which in hindsight was a poor idea. I can't see where to put my coffee down, constantly spilling hot beverages ruining my latest copy of pingame journal.

sure.

I am happy to pay for verifiable information/evidence regarding this.

It is my understanding that there are 4 Predator pinball machines in some state of completeness.
1 of these machines is the Tim Fife game. No need for any further evidence of this as the dummy posted and bragged about it already.

1 of these machines is the Clay Harrell "not Kevin" built game. I will pay for evidence of this game in Clay's possession. As simple as you snapping a stealth picture of the game in his house/clubhouse/with him/ basically anything that can place the predator pinball machine in Clay's possession.

2 of these machines are unknown of current whereabouts but I believe one is in IL currently. I will pay for evidence of either of these games.

There were key parts to build atleast 10 early production games in total. I will pay for evidence/ information regarding these parts.

If someone has a predator pf that they turned into a coffee table then I am not concerned with them but i will pay for the info on where they bought the pf from.

Kevin allegedly destroyed all these parts.
Clay allegedly found a pile of parts.
One other person allegedly traded Kevin a different pinball machine for their Predator position so Kevin allegedly gave him parts/a completed game in return after it all went under.

It does not all add up and lots of lies from both Kevin and people that currently have the prototype games and parts. I would like to recreate what happened and when.

Why you may ask?

Basically, I dont think these guys that bought parts from Kevin or games from Kevin after all the shit went under should be able benefit by having these games/parts which were only even made from the use of pre-order money. I specifically would like to track the parts as they left from Kevin and where they went. Evidence of Kevin selling licensed material post it all going under shows his true nature when things become criminal (they will as after the bankruptcy and civil stuff is done, you better believe I will be just as tenacious on working towards criminal and IRS proceedings) and may help in getting the weight of Fox pressing for criminal charges.

I also think some of these games have value that is a recoverable asset of the trustee/ people screwed in the whole thing. I would love to see these games recovered, auctioned off to the highest bidder, and then potentially made available for the public to see/play rather than hidden away in some clubhouse or basement.

The funny thing is, with you willing to pay for the data on the down low (so to speak), Kevin is probably wondering how he can be the one to leak the info to you and collect the $500 per machine...

If the info/photos comes from a gmail account with pirate in the title let us know.

Have you actually BEEN to Michigan?
There is way more than 4 Predators
Everyones got that shit here.
Guess what?
It plays like a turd, your not missing much...

I think there is a rule about attacking other Pinside members.

So you will pay me $500 to trespass on someones property and take a picture?
Im no lawyer, but I totally did stay at a Holiday Inn last night, and that sounds like you are commissioning a crime (across state lines no less)
So that little bit of legal advice I will give you for free, might want to do some editing to your last post that I just quoted for truth...

But I worked really hard on my coffee table, I mean for like a WHOLE DAY STRAIGHT, I didnt even eat lunch that day, it was like I was in the zone, all I could think about was how cool this coffee table was going to be, and how I couldnt wait to see it all lit up with LEDS and coffee tinted mirror blades!

No, I didnt ask, but Im sure you are going to tell us all how it is anyway

Thats alot of words and not enough punctuation for me, so I didnt read it.

Maybe you should just donate to the legal fund and save yourself some money?

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You must be a slow coffee drinker then if your still reading the latest copy of PGJ.

John

Yes, you are if the "dude" does not have a business including the capital equipment needed to manufacture the product.

nah, you probably should not trespass to get the photo, but since clay has bragged about his machine I am guessing he regularly invites his clubhouse friends to come play it. One simple and quick photo stealthy snapped can earn you $500. As you note, the game plays like a turd anyway, so no reason for it to remain hidden away so only the cool crowd in MI can play it.

Hilton - wow once again, thanks for the...strategery. Soooo, what are the chances that there are more than two machines? In a state of at least full assembly? You said FOUR. That means there are two more EFFIN SNAKES out there that I would love to tussle with. And if I get a chance to go after Clay...oh sweet deities from South of the Mason-Dixon line, let me be first in line. Well - in reality there is already enough evidence for Keith to start discovery on Clay. It's the next two that are gonna get the "Hi you are on candid pinside".

Is there any chance that there are more than the four? yes, of course there is.

Remember, fellow pinheads, revenge is a dish best served cold. I, for one, will never let this go. I have the means and the determination to pursue justice against those that steal from me and my family.

If you are one of the people that has one of these machines - you have ONE WEEK(until 9/13/17) to contact me personally. If you do not I will come after you and your family with my entire legal team, no matter the cost. Believe it.

IMHO these machines have become too entwined with the identity of the designers. It was not like that in the 70s 80s, or at least I was unaware of it then. (please correct me if wrong) Now we have thieves, pedophiles, and scam artists as nearly the top word association with some of these pins. Like here - I don't get it. How could Clay keep one of these knowing that was punishing fellow hobbyists? It would make me sick. Guess Clay is just...different.

Good point! So, in the case of Predator, if everyone went to the Skit-B dealership and bought the machines I guess there would be no issue. You would've been able to pick your trim package and all custom upgrades and accessories by looking through the brochure alongside your trusted Skit-B sales representative. After that, the pinball machine would be scheduled to run down the production line within the next week and be delivered to your dealership, where a service technician would overlook the machine for any flaws or blemishes (of course these would be covered by the 30k-play coin-door to back-box full warranty).
Ok, enough sarcasm. When a "company" NEEDS the money up front (including profits) in order to build the product, and the money is spent on investments for capital equipment NEEDED to build the product, the source of the money is the investor. Most companies acquire a business loan or has their own money to invest (or acquires an outside investor by showing them a prototype and a business plan) in order to set up shop and generate products. Then they sell the product, pay their investors and bills, and (hopefully) keep the profit. Somehow, the pinball business/hobby has been able to sidestep this process and in multiple cases the investors have been at the losing end of thousands of dollars.

We know there were 10 'produciton' playfields built, so I would say that is the upper limit. I understand there to be 4 games in some degree of a full game.

I believe the current story (allegedly) is that predator parts just magically showed up in a big crate of other parts at his clubhouse one day and he decided to build himself a game from assembling those parts. He allegedly tried to hide this from the community until some of his clubhouse buddies reached out to let me know that he had done this. I stopped Clay at the last VFW show I attended to ask him about it, he turned white as a ghost and quickly ditch the conversation; obviously floored that I knew (he is not a good poker player). He allegedly then went through hours of his CCTV survailence video that he has at the clubhouse, trying to determine whom of the other clubhouse members I spoke with and which one ratted him out. Funny part is that it was multiple people that put the word out what Clay had done because even though they are part of his clubhouse they were also sickened by what he was doing and his willingness to take the parts paid for by the pre-order people and then turn them into a game for himself.

He could have been the hero and been striaght with it up front and reached out the the community to help build a game that would then be on display for others to at least play and see, but that is not the path he chose.

Again, I say this is all allegedly as I have been 'warned'

Clay is always "white as a ghost." He doesn't tan easily.

As far as quickly ditching the conversation, who can blame him? I'd do the same thing, as would most people if cornered by an ornery and verbose Wisconsinian.

If FOX is involved, it will NEVER happen. Machines would be recovered and destroyed. FOX does not allow unauthorized merchandise to be "just auctioned off".

Yep, might be more than 4 Predator machines out in the wild of Michigan, but they will never see the light of day again.

However, proof of their existence may be enough to put Mr. K.K. away for a while.

Just a memory.....

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Game has always been shit...no one would want to play it.

I keep seeing things like this posted around. "If kevin had just been honest it wouldn't have been a big deal". "If Clay had come to the community and let us know it would have been fine". "Tim would be off the hook if he didn't cover up his possession of a game" I just have trouble believing that. I'm not endorsing hiding these things from people or owning it, but lets not be silly. People are out for blood. If Clay or Tim or any other owner was honest they would have been crucified. Sure maybe, it would have been a slightly nicer lynching, but it would have been bad news regardless.

maybe some, but I dont agree with that.

IF Clay had come on the board and said, "Hey everyone, I located the required parts to build a Predator and would like work to build a 1 off game for posterity and so everyone that visits the VFW has a chance to play it at some point. I know alot of you were screwed and feel bad that these parts were paid for with pre-order money, but also feel it would be good to preserve the game and the story of what it was. If you were one of the 175 people that got screwed in the pre-order of this game then I want to offer 1 free day admission for the next VFW show. Come for 2 days and only pay for 1", I am pretty sure it would have been very different.

Of course we would have also expected him to actually cooperate and say where he got the parts from as that is important in the ongoing legal matters against SkitB, but wouldn't any good member of the community be willing to provide that information already...

It could have been a fun community project to work together to create a 1 off game which would have been available to play at VFW, it could have been some good will for Clay, and it could have been a good thing for the longevity of the VFW and people willing to continue to help donate money when it is needed in the future (like so many of us did at the start and when he can asking for funds to put on a new roof).

I would have supported Clay if he had been upfront and honest about the situation, along with cooperating with discovery aspects.

That sounds nice in theory and after-the-fact, but remember the mood of everyone while the whole thing was collapsing. I don't think very many buyers would have been interested in the posterity aspect of the game after just seeing the whole project crumble and their money evaporate in real time. I'm not sure it would have been possible to take that approach then. Now, sure, but probably not then.

fair point. If that is the case then he should have just done the right thing, taken down all the info of the guy that had the parts, told him no thanks and that he did not want to touch the game with a 30ft pole as it was caustic, and then turned over the info to the lawyers/police/discovery team.

He made a willful choice to acquire the parts, 'build' a machine, and knew he was doing so with the very parts paid for by people screwed over in the whole thing. I personally think he paid for the parts and that money went back to Kevin either directly or indirectly, but that is just my opinon based on Clay's history and nature.

I was a big supporter of Clay and his whole thing up till this stage. After pulling this BS, then I flipped the switch on my opinion of him. Hence why I am happy to pay for evidence of the game in his possession. I have to think that there will be someone happy to make some quick cash and also sees the wrong in what he has done so they will be happy to toss him under the bus.

While everything was imploding, maybe the only way to preserve everything was to acquire it on the DL. It's not the first time a pinball company has closed its doors and there was a mad scramble to grab stuff from being destroyed.

Anyway, who knows. I'm not going to vilify anyone here. It's easy to dissect things after the fact and make suppositions of what might have or might not have happened without actual facts or first-hand knowledge.

Hey it worked for Kevin and the cabinet guy.

Just curious, why would you want a picture of his machine?

In all these posting, I seem to recall, somewhere on the innerweb he admits to owning a game.

Is the picture for special purposes?

special purpose (resized).jpg

Kinky!

"I'm picking out a thermos for you"

proof that he has it and what he actually has is the purpose.

I'm siding with Hilton again here. If he had said to me by way of a pinside post to everyone that he had the extra parts...I would have been fine with him putting one together...and then auctioning it off and the proceeds being split between me and my fellow victims. Actually that would have been pretty cool. In fact it would be cool right now.

Wow...how truly thoughtful of you.

You may be unaware of my pinside reputation as "most thoughtful pinhead". I frequently look at situations and evaluate how I can better line my pockets.

Machine was never approved by the licence holders, it should be destroyed.

Maybe if we erect a statue for it.................

I don't agree. I think Milton is right about the way it worked out being a shame. If it was an out in the open "grabbing what exists for posterity" that would be "fairly" acceptable. The weasel phrases like "Kevin Built" is going to haunt him.

If his plan was to wait out the court case(s) he should have kept it in the closet and would have gotten away with it after time had passed. After that gavel drops the court and people's blood lust would have been too minimal to bother.

There is no real happy ending.

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It's okay, since Pinside is an adult website now...

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I still can't figure out the cabinet guy. What 100k for a few cabinets. Not the 250.

You might want to publish your pseudo legal notice in the Chicago Daily Law Bulletin, Detroit Legal News, Law 360, New York Law Journal and the Wisconsin Law Journal. Allegedly, not every predator machine is owned (or was stolen from you) by a pinside reader. Can pinside be used to deliver legal notices? Per the TOS, it cannot be used to threaten anyone.

Allegedly, They were found in the bushes below the fighter jet in front of the VFW Hall.

Only one playfield, six translights, some weird target assemblies but no ramps. So, how did clay end up with the four or eight machines once alleged? Especially since "several" club buddies ratted him out per your fable.

Since it was not the VFW hall whysnow alleges and allegedly it was this one; I wonder if whysnow has the rest of the parts and is building machines since he once claimed he is more qualified than anyone else to build the predator machines. The antics displayed here, including putting words in other people's mouths (allegedly, actionable) could be an attempt to cover up something else.

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Great synopsis, but not a frickin chance.

Would you have been fine with Clay if he just openly said I have the all the parts to build a Predator and I am going to keep it for display at my museum/vfw/shop, whatever?

A reality check is in order because auctioning it off and dispersing all the funds is beyond a pipe dream.

Hypothetical situation and all comments are welcome.

Buyer X has paid for his Predator Machine in full. All the shit has hit the fan and the truth about Predator has come to light, but no lawsuits have been filed or bankruptcy have been filed yet.

Buyer X decides to pay a personal visit to K.K. and sees that there are 4 fully assembled prototypes at K.K.'s shop/basement/trailer and demands that he be given one on the spot. K.K. complies and sends Buyer X off with a Predator.

Is Buyer X now within his full right to keep this game? Is he the bad guy with a machine while the other buyers got nothing? Should he give it back back?

My opinion is unless FOX demands the machine be legally turned over, Buyer X is 100% right in keeping his game because he took immediate action to get what he paid for. He owes the other buyers nothing.

If this same scenario happens AFTER bankruptcy is filed by K.K., Buyer X is screwed.

assuming he also divulged honestly where he acquired all the parts/ from who in order to provide some help to the trustee and civil suits trying to recover assets and track down where money went...

then sure, I would have been completely fine with that and even helped him out to make the game be the best it could. I also would have continueed to support his efforts with the VFW museum and donated to keep it running. In general, I support the idea of anyone that amasses a nice and well maintained personal collection which they open for public use each year.

Making up some BS story about finding the parts in a box outside the clubhouse and only even coming up with that half baked story after it came to light that he had a Predator which he claimed to have build from these parts was not a good idea. It did not work and everyone has seen right though it all. Toss on this that the game is not available for public play and we see the reality pretty clear in the situation.

To the trustees and the lawyers, yes. I have a feeling he may eventually be delivered a subpoena to answer these questions to anyway.

He said on the record he found the parts in a box by his clubhouse? That's not a joke or hyperbole of some kind?