(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

5 years ago



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#17151 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

urban myth that by taking multiple payments under 10k means you dont have to report. Reality is that it does need to be reported and after things are done with the court case I would guess the IRS will be interested in talking with him about these transactions also?
"
What Payments Must Be Reported?
You must file Form 8300 to report cash paid to you if it is:
1.Over $10,000,
2.Received as:
1.One lump sum of over $10,000,
2.Installment payments that cause the total cash received within 1 year of the initial payment to total more than $10,000, or
3.Other previously unreportable payments that cause the total cash received within a 12-month period to total more than $10,000,
3.Received in the course of your trade or business,
4.Received from the same buyer (or agent), and
5.Received in a single transaction or in related transactions (defined later).
"

I guess noone is reading the link Wolfmarsh posted....That's ^ all fine and dandy, but consecutive checks do not constitute cash. It specifically gives examples why checks drawn on personal accounts are not considered cash. So your argument is moot. If Kevin paid Virtua, 5 checks of $9900, for goods, it was a wasted effort, because one check of $50K would still not have required form 8300. Nor does 5 checks of $9900. It's a definite distinction the IRS makes. Only coins, paper money, cashier checks, money orders and bank transfers are considered "cash". My opinion, this was a tactical error by Keith going down this avenue.

#17152 2 years ago

what is cash?

"2.Any transaction in which you know the payer is trying to avoid the reporting of the transaction on Form 8300"

#17153 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I guess noone is reading the link Wolfmarsh posted....That's ^ all fine and dandy, but consecutive checks do not constitute cash. It specifically gives examples why checks drawn on personal accounts are not considered cash. So your argument is moot. If Kevin paid Virtua, 5 checks of $9900, for goods, it was a wasted effort, because one check of $50K would still not have required form 8300. Nor does 5 checks of $9900. It's a definite distinction the IRS makes. Only coins, paper money, cashier checks, money orders and bank transfers are considered "cash". My opinion, this was a tactical error by Keith going down this avenue.

Thanks Robert.

I believe this to be the correct interpretation of publication 1544. Can you imagine the amount of paperwork if every time a business wrote a check > than $10k to another business, and they had to fill out an 8300?

The purpose of the rule is to establish a paper trail for large amounts of cash, not to track checks written from an account that can already be tracked by the virtue of the bank's records.

They actually damaged their case more by splitting the payments up, because on the surface it indicates planning to try and avoid what they thought was an IRS rule that applied to them. Since it doesn't apply to them though, I'm not sure it matters. They were trying to avoid something that technically doesn't exist as it applies to these transactions.

It does show you how shady their relationship was though. We can all take that away from it.

PS - I am by no means an expert in this, so it's still up for discussion, but I have been researching this aspect of the case since the last recording.

#17154 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

They actually damaged their case more by splitting the payments up, because on the surface it indicates planning to try and avoid what they thought was an IRS rule that applied to them. Since it doesn't apply to them though, I'm not sure it matters. They were trying to avoid something that technically doesn't exist as it applies to these transactions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Structuring

#17155 2 years ago

I don't know that applies here, given that they weren't subject to filing an 8300 anyway. It's obvious they tried to do structuring, just not 100% clear if it even matters.

If I have a chance today, I'll call the IRS help line and ask for confirmation either way.

#17156 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I don't know that applies here, given that they weren't subject to filing an 8300 anyway. It's obvious they tried to do structuring, just not 100% clear if it even matters.
If I have a chance today, I'll call the IRS help line and ask for confirmation either way.

I tried to call the IRS for help, and got lost and hung up on about 6 times trying to navigate their phone system. Hangups were all automated, ranging from "Agents can only answer that during the filing season, check online *click*" to "Those questions are no longer answered by a human, check online *click*".

I've sent a couple emails to our accountants here at work and they will know the correct answer I think.

I'll report back when I find out more.

#17157 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I tried to call the IRS for help, and got lost and hung up on about 6 times trying to navigate their phone system. Hangups were all automated, ranging from "Agents can only answer that during the filing season, check online *click*" to "Those questions are no longer answered by a human, check online *click*".

#17158 2 years ago

Kevin could've written a single company check for $99,000 to them, and nobody, including the IRS, would have blinked an eye.

He can write ten different $9,900 checks to them, and nobody, including the IRS, would blink an eye.

Personal or company checks, drawn on bank accounts, are not subject to the BSA (Bank Secrecy Act) reporting requirements.

The *only* reason this is any type of issue is that is shows a *misinformed* intent on their part to skirt the BSA reporting requirements. It is illegal to structure a transaction in order to circumvent the reporting requirements. However, since this transaction was not subject to the reporting requirements, there's nothing to circumvent.

They were just dumb, and it draws attention to something that could've been a non-issue. It's not illegal, there's been no laws broken, but, in my opinion only, it clearly shows that two ill-informed people conspired to circumvent a law that didn't apply to them anyway. But it begs the question that if this transaction was performed in "the normal course of business", why were they trying to keep it so "hush-hush"?

#17159 2 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

it clearly shows that two ill-informed people conspired to circumvent a law that didn't apply to them anyway.

Love it.
I have "donated" $4750 to one of these Nobel-Prize caliber pinball "manufacturers"...
Learning from mistakes I guess.

#17160 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

what is cash?
"2.Any transaction in which you know the payer is trying to avoid the reporting of the transaction on Form 8300"

Go back and read the sections before and after....You're incorrect in your assumption. Pay attention to the formatting...the line you quoted is under item 1. which identifies everything NOT a check.

I'll post it here to make it easy:

What Is Cash?
Cash is:

The coins and currency of the United States (and any other country), and

1. A cashier's check, bank draft, traveler's check, or money order you receive, if it has a face amount of $10,000 or less and you receive it in:

{INDENT} 1. A designated reporting transaction (defined later), or

{INDENT} 2. Any transaction in which you know the payer is trying to avoid the reporting of the transaction on Form 8300.

Cash may include a cashier's check even if it is called a “treasurer's check” or “bank check.”
Cash does not include a check drawn on an individual's personal account.

#17161 2 years ago
Quoted from examiner:

Kevin could've written a single company check for $99,000 to them, and nobody, including the IRS, would have blinked an eye.
He can write ten different $9,900 checks to them, and nobody, including the IRS, would blink an eye.
Personal or company checks, drawn on bank accounts, are not subject to the BSA (Bank Secrecy Act) reporting requirements.
The *only* reason this is any type of issue is that is shows a *misinformed* intent on their part to skirt the BSA reporting requirements. It is illegal to structure a transaction in order to circumvent the reporting requirements. However, since this transaction was not subject to the reporting requirements, there's nothing to circumvent.
They were just dumb, and it draws attention to something that could've been a non-issue. It's not illegal, there's been no laws broken, but, in my opinion only, it clearly shows that two ill-informed people conspired to circumvent a law that didn't apply to them anyway. But it begs the question that if this transaction was performed in "the normal course of business", why were they trying to keep it so "hush-hush"?

Yep....a few of us get it.

#17162 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

Yep...I like Keith, but I said this very early on...mistake to be on Pinside.

And given that he hasn't posted to this thread in three months, it appears he has come to share your opinion.

#17163 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

I'll post it here to make it easy:

thanks

who would have thunk... the IRS website and language is confusing... lol

#17164 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

thanks
who would have thunk... the IRS website and language is confusing... lol

That we can agree on!

#17165 2 years ago

... so confusing that some study found that a large percentage of the time the IRS help line will give a caller incorrect "help"!

#17166 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

... so confusing that some study found that a large percentage of the time the IRS help line will give a caller incorrect "help"!

Isn't that the intent, to confuse everyone?

#17167 2 years ago
Quoted from DanQverymuch:

... so confusing that some study found that a large percentage of the time the IRS help line will give a caller incorrect "help"!

It definitely was not helpful to me today. You go down this long path of picking options, and 95% of them end in the system telling you to check online and hanging up on you. Doesn't give you an option to go back up a level, so you get to call back in and start over.

Still waiting back to hear from the accountant.

#17168 2 years ago

Just so I understand correctly?
Keith is attorney representing Mr Frank and trying to claw back every cent that they can for financial losses in the Predator scam. Then cabinet maker that is also involved in this and clearly received funds in odd manner is trying to sue Keith for ruining business?

I have heard the public tapes and it sure seems Keith has been on receiving end of a lot of attacks and bullshit.

I take it these cases are treated separately?

Does this give Keith opportunity to push harder for criminal charges or opportunity to inform or get the IRS to take action? On all involved in the money trail?

Seems weird that with such poor or non existent business practices that this civil type stuff is going on first. I would think it would be the other way around. Or combined so that things were really truthful and cooperative.

#17169 2 years ago
Quoted from CNKay:

Seems weird that with such poor or non existent business practices that this civil type stuff is going on first. I would think it would be the other way around.

Good point. It does seem weird that the judge who was assigned to hear the bankruptcy case would also be assigned to hear the defamation case at the same time.

For the lawyers out there, is this usual?

#17170 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Good point. It does seem weird that the judge who was assigned to hear the bankruptcy case would also be assigned to hear the defamation case at the same time.
For the lawyers out there, is this usual?

No, it's not unusual.

#17171 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

is this usual?

Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

No, it's not unusual

are you speaking legalese?

26
#17172 2 years ago
Quoted from TecumsehPlissken:

are you speaking legalese?

No, Tom Jones....

#17173 2 years ago

So when do we get a ruling on the defamation charge? Will that be a public hearing too with recording?

#17174 2 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

No, Tom Jones....

It's not unusual to be bummed at 341s, nunu-nunu-nahhh...

#17175 2 years ago
Quoted from Jam_Burglar:

It's not unusual to be bummed at 341s, nunu-nunu-nahhh...

It's not unusual, to see a Kulek lie.

#17176 2 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

Good point. It does seem weird that the judge who was assigned to hear the bankruptcy case would also be assigned to hear the defamation case at the same time.
For the lawyers out there, is this usual?

I understood it as this judge only rules whether the defamation suit can go forward or is dismissed.

#17177 2 years ago

Wow wasn't reading pinside for awhile and thought this would have been resolved by now. I feel for everyone who's losing money due to this and it looks like the situation just gets crazier

#17178 2 years ago

For the record, this is the most fascinating thread on Pinside. I spent probably three hours today catching up.

After all that, I am not closer to understanding what the actual thinking was here. On one hand, it seems like Kevin hatched a crazy plan with the intent to steal money from a bunch of people. His purchases were done to keep up the charade, and he fully intended to walk with every dime he could.

This seems unbelievable because everyone seems too stupid in the proceedings to actually have thought this far in advance.

-or-

Kevin was legitimately trying to build these, realized he couldn't, and realized he was in too deep to come out of it. Instead of trying to fix the situation, he cut and run.

This seems believable, but then I don't get the moves he was making to get there. If he was at all legit, you would think there would be one or two pieces of proof showing him doing anything right. But there's not.

It's weird. It's like, how can one be so dumb, and be able to pull off a manipulation so complex?

#17179 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

For the record, this is the most fascinating thread on Pinside. I spent probably three hours today catching up.
After all that, I am not closer to understanding what the actual thinking was here. On one hand, it seems like Kevin hatched a crazy plan with the intent to steal money from a bunch of people. His purchases were done to keep up the charade, and he fully intended to walk with every dime he could.
This seems unbelievable because everyone seems too stupid in the proceedings to actually have thought this far in advance.
-or-
Kevin was legitimately trying to build these, realized he couldn't, and realized he was in too deep to come out of it. Instead of trying to fix the situation, he cut and run.
This seems believable, but then I don't get the moves he was making to get there. If he was at all legit, you would think there would be one or two pieces of proof showing him doing anything right. But there's not.
It's weird. It's like, how can one be so dumb, and be able to pull off a manipulation so complex?

I kind of agree with your 2nd assessment but I have trouble understanding why Kevin would move forward with building and showing the pinball machines without the license. My hunch is that he felt so strongly that the license would come through that he took a huge risk (a leap of faith really) that did not pan out in his (or his investor's) favor. It is unfortunate that his bad bet resulted in everyone here and many more losing money.

11
#17180 2 years ago
Quoted from wizard_mode:

(or his investor's)

there were NO investors...

For some reason it seems many people from MI keep trying to push this idea (seems like a few are trying to push this use of language). There were customers that ordered a product that was never delivered. Skit-B and Kevin Kuleck sold a product that they did not have the legal rights to build and never delivered on those goods.

#17181 2 years ago
Quoted from pinmanguy:

Wow wasn't reading pinside for awhile and thought this would have been resolved by now. I feel for everyone who's losing money due to this and it looks like the situation just gets crazier

Welcome to the judicial system of the United States. It will bleed you dry. You could come back in 1 more year and this thing might be 1/2 the way through.

#17182 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

For some reason it seems many people from MI keep trying to push this idea

Yep. It's a vast conspiracy. The Kulec support group meets up in the woods every Tuesday. Using a Wiccan inspired chant, we all send positive energy his way. Additionally, we stick needles in a voodoo doll fashioned to look like this Keith fellow (who we are about to kick out of the state BTW).

Either that, or you're reading way too much into this and drawing absurd conclusions. Actually, my read on this was that most of the pin crowd from Michigan was smart enough not so send a fool like this any money.

#17183 2 years ago
Quoted from wizard_mode:

I kind of agree with your 2nd assessment but I have trouble understanding why Kevin would move forward with building and showing the pinball machines without the license. My hunch is that he felt so strongly that the license would come through that he took a huge risk (a leap of faith really) that did not pan out in his (or his investor's) favor. It is unfortunate that his bad bet resulted in everyone here and many more losing money.

The thing that is crazy about the second idea is that he did absolutely everything right to get a ton of people to pay in. Making it limited, taking out the prototype, making deals with a few important part makers - the same that he would actually need to contract first, etc.

He seems to have lucked into a solid swindle, as nothing I've seen makes him seen smart enough to do it on purpose. If thats true, it's equally fascinating to me to think about when he decided to make it a scam, as the end was clearly that.

I hope everyone is made whole or close to it. I really wish that at the moment he realized this wasn't going to work, that he just stopped and did what he could to make it right. The complete lack of any responsibility is just stunning to me. I've worked on failed projects, but could never imagine not doing everything I could to help our supporters in that case.

#17184 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I hope everyone is made whole or close to it.

Yeah, hope is good. Unfortunately, everyone hoped the Titanic would stay afloat too.

#17185 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

Yeah, hope is good. Unfortunately, everyone hoped the Titanic would stay afloat too.

Oh, I know. I just also know there isn't anything other than hope that I can do about it.

#17186 2 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

Yep. It's a vast conspiracy.

I was not insinuating this at all. Just pointing out that there are a few people form MI that have used this 'investor' language so often that it seems to have become common use by others; most notably other in MI. It appears that they have heard it often enough that it creeps into their language even though it is inaccurate.

Keep in mind that some in MI have actively attempted to help create red herrings for chasing down money in order to waste resopurces and time, have actively tried to create additional ammo for the SkitB and associated lawyers to use against those trying to recover money by posting false news stories and defamiatory insinuations against them, and oddly enough 2 of the confirmed and known produced games currently reside in MI. 1 of the games is confirmed as in the hands of Clay whom has a following of local supporters. 1 of the games is confirmed as in the hands of Tim Fife.

Basically pointing out that things are not always as they seem and "investor" is far from the reality even though some have pushed that word use. I dont know of a single investor for SkitB. I know of LOTS of screwed over customers that are still rightfully pissed about what SkitB has done and equally pissed about what Clay and Tim have done.

#17187 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

I hope everyone is made whole or close to it.

I see that as slim hopes. I just hope to ensure the entire Kulek gang has as much of that money clawed back as possible and that those that have further taken advantage of the people that pre-ordered by buying games second hand or 'making' them from parts that were paid for with pre-order money, get theirs in the end.

Speaking of...

I have a $500 cash reward for anyone that can provide photo evidence of any Predator games/ parts and whom they are currently in the hands of. If anyone wants to snap a photo/video of the "not-Kevin built" game that Clay has then let me know. Happy to have you set up a fake gmail/paypal to take payment if you want to remain annonymous (understanable that you would in this case).

We know there were 10 playfields and the parts to build 10 games out there. We know of at least 2 complete games out in the world and have photos of the Tim Fife game obviously so dont need anything with that one.

The most recent story I am told is that Kevin sold the bulk parts to some guy that then resold them to others.

Any verifiable information of the location of these parts and players involved in the purchase/sale are appreciated and I will compensate you for the information.

#17188 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

there were NO investors...

Thats right. They were
.. in John's tongue owners.

#17189 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

It's weird. It's like, how can one be so dumb, and be able to pull off a manipulation so complex?

Same reason so much fake news gets spread... People are eager to believe. And at the time, so many fresh people in the hobby suffered from "Fear of Missing Out"

#17190 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

there were NO investors...
For some reason it seems many people from MI keep trying to push this idea (seems like a few are trying to push this use of language). There were customers that ordered a product that was never delivered. Skit-B and Kevin Kuleck sold a product that they did not have the legal rights to build and never delivered on those goods.

Maybe "people in MI" have a common understanding that the people like you who pre-ordered the undelivered product actually funded the project? We could squabble over the exact definition over the word investor if you like, but I do not think it is necessary. Honestly, I do not think it is only "people in MI" that feel that you were an investor. Maybe you are just generalizing since one of the "people in MI" screwed you over? Don't take it out on me man!

#17191 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

...I hope everyone is made whole or close to it....

Ha that's a pipe dream for sure (crack). The entire point is get what you can and hopefully punish the crook as much as possible.

#17192 2 years ago
Quoted from wizard_mode:

Maybe "people in MI" have a common understanding that the people like you who pre-ordered the undelivered product actually funded the project?

We're getting together again tonight. If you PM me, I'll give you the exact location for the ritual. Generally, we alternate between the woods behind Tim Fife's house and a flooded out shed that used to have arcade games in it. You need to bring your own doll. We like to use ones with pinballs for heads.

#17193 2 years ago
Quoted from newmantjn:

We're getting together again tonight. If you PM me, I'll give you the exact location for the ritual. Generally, we alternate between the woods behind Tim Fife's house and a flooded out shed that used to have arcade games in it. You need to bring your own doll. We like to use ones with pinballs for heads.

please be sure to pass the word that there is a $500 bounty for pics showing where the parts went.
I'll toss in an extra $100 is it comes with voodoo doll and the game.

14
#17194 2 years ago

"people in MI"

pasted_image (resized).png

#17195 2 years ago

well that seals it. Its officially an 'adult' website with creepy sex cult reference.

13
#17196 2 years ago
Quoted from VacFink:

well that seals it. Its officially an 'adult' website with creepy sex cult reference.

It's actually creepier in real life because the cloaks are all camo.

#17197 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

It's actually creepier in real life because the cloaks are all camo.

Guessing in that scenario the secret word is 'covfefe' and maybe held in a barn..just a guess ... cue music replace single note piano playing with the thunk of a ball peen hammer on a cow bell.

#17198 2 years ago
Quoted from VacFink:

...and maybe held in a barn..just a guess

pole barn you got it!

The sad thing is the Predator machines don't get much play with all the goatee clad sex & car talk going on.

#17199 2 years ago

Saw that there was 19 new posts and thought there was a new audio posted...no such luck.....oh well, hopefully soon....

#17200 2 years ago
Quoted from cliff_clavin:

Saw that there was 19 new posts and thought there was a new audio posted...no such luck.....oh well, hopefully soon....

It seems that we are all losing our minds now, this has taken so long....

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