(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

5 years ago



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#1601 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I hope Kevin sees that by far the majority of people beating the drums and making accusations have no money invested. They aren't the ones he needs to satisfy.
In my opinion the best thing to do is just let that stuff roll off his back and get on with the build (even though the drama on Pinside may cause a few actual buyers to ask for refunds).

They do need to satisfy the non-buyers. Reputation is key, and if they want to sell any other pins, the people he 'doesn't need to satisfy' certainly won't be new buyers, nor will the previous people who were in on Predator want to buy anything else.

#1602 5 years ago

I like how after 4 years everybody always asks for 2 more weeks, haha. Same is happening on Jpop thread. Then people talk about how much they're going to pitchfork "in 2 weeks." Then they realize that it takes actual effort to go do something. Then they give up.

#1603 5 years ago

Once th line is drawn its a few plane trips and that's already starting. Yes it's been a while but folks are on it now.
A little less mock and a bit more support eh?

#1604 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Once th line is drawn its a few plane trips and that's already starting. Yes it's been a while but folks are on it now.
A little less mock and a bit more support eh?

Being realistic will put money in your pockets, being supportive just makes you feel better.

#1605 5 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

They do need to satisfy the non-buyers. Reputation is key, and if they want to sell any other pins, the people he 'doesn't need to satisfy' certainly won't be new buyers, nor will the previous people who were in on Predator want to buy anything else.

I disagree. Put out a great game and people will be lining up for the next one if it's a title they want at a good price.

Sure, there will be some who won't bite because of how long Predator has taken or the lack of communication, but I think there will be far more ready to sign up once they see that the company can put out a great game.

For all the complaining and negative speculation on here, nobody has actually lost anything yet. Put out a Predator pinball machine like the prototype and all that stuff was just wasted keystrokes.

#1606 5 years ago

I think that's where the big debate is. People see it as the rest of 'us' being negative and unsupportive. From our perspective, we don't want to see anyone lose their ass on this deal. I certainly don't want anyone to be hung out to dry. Time will tell.

#1607 5 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

Being realistic will put money in your pockets, being supportive just makes you feel better.

Talking crap and stirring up things is not being realistic. Folks have a game plan and people have booked trips. I will be the first to also hop on a plane or train as well. As I have in the past.

What are you bringing to the table?

#1608 5 years ago
Quoted from Hwawonyu:

Talking crap and stirring up things is not being realistic. Folks have a game plan and people have booked trips. I will be the first to also hop on a plane or train as well. As I have in the past.
What are you bringing to the table?

I'm not talking crap, if anything the realists are getting attacked for their opinions. Whatever 'stirring' there is, was done a long time ago. Skit-B created this mess, not the people in this forum - don't forget where the problems have trickled down from.

I'm bringing my opinion to the table.

#1609 5 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

I'm not talking crap, if anything the realists are getting attacked for their opinions. Whatever 'stirring' there is, was done a long time ago. Skit-B created this mess, not the people in this forum - don't forget where the problems have trickled down from.
I'm bringing my opinion to the table.

your condescending tone of calling yourself a "realist" is in fact negative as your are insinuating everyone besides you is a donkey.

you are NOT merely sharing an opinion and when your opinion is slanderous and without fact then it creates even more us vs them crap.

If you want to speak in facts then do so, but don't claim your are the realist and not continuing to stir for the effect of drama.

We are told in 2 weeks new stuff will com to light, until that time the facts are all we have.

SkitB claims to be making games, license is fine with new negotiations happening, first batch nearing completion, and BIG update in 2 weeks time.

Other Anonymous People have made allegations against all this and have been calling FOX along the way.

SkitB is behind the schedule they originally intended and poor at communication.

I am not sure what other facts we have at this time other then what Ted provided from his conversation yesterday with Kevin.

#1610 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

your condescending tone of calling yourself a "realist" is in fact negative as your are insinuating everyone besides you is a donkey.
you are NOT merely sharing an opinion and when your opinion is slanderous and without fact then it creates even more us vs them crap.
If you want to speak in facts then do so, but don't claim your are the realist and not continuing to stir for the effect of drama.

I have not slandered anyone. And I expected these responses. Carry on.

15
#1611 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I disagree. Put out a great game and people will be lining up for the next one if it's a title they want at a good price.

Nope. No matter what happens with Predator now, there's no outcome that will lead to people pre-ordering with Kevin again. Just isn't gonna happen. Sure, maybe a few dedicated souls, but not enough to make that model work.

If he got funding and just produced a game? Sure, if the game is there and you can just buy it, and it's compelling. I don't think Experts of Dangerousness is that game though. And there's a lot that would have to happen to see funding and no pre-orders and just a complete game. It strikes me as unlikely, but if it happens we can all decide if we want to buy.

Everyone, including Kevin I hope, knows that Skit-B is a seriously damaged brand right now. That's just reality, not trolling, not forum whining. This is all assuming Predator ever ships. And the the fact that we're this close, and not even feeling certain anyone is going to get one (I hope they do) is why things are so damaged, and why you'd be pretty nuts to think it was a good idea to ride this same train again.

11
#1612 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

license is fine with new negotiations happening

Why are new negotiations happening, if the license is fine?

-1
#1613 5 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:

Why are new negotiations happening, if the license is fine?

YES, the license is fine. He is working on getting into a better situation so EVERYTHING can be shown and talked about.

#1614 5 years ago

Ehh, nm, vid didn't link right

#1615 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

nuts to think it was a good idea to ride this same train again.

pretty sure the preorder model is dead across the board?

I know I will not ever preorder again.

#1616 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I disagree. Put out a great game and people will be lining up for the next one if it's a title they want at a good price.

Couldn't disagree more....

There might be 10 people with enough "WTF-Cash" to bet on Kevin again, but i cant imagine enough to make a full project work.....at least not pre-order.

HOWEVER.

IF Predator is awesome.
and
IF everyone gets one.

THEN, I think he could make another title and sell it IF and only if he moved to a traditional (not so traditional in pinball) model where he sold stuff that was ready-to-ship.

Multi-year pre-orders? No way. Let's be honest.
At BEST Kevin has been a horrible communicator. And this breakdown happened after he collected his money. That is an undisputable FACT.
At WORST? Well, there's no facts there yet.... I guess we give him the benefit of the doubt - for 2 weeks at least....

Good luck folks....

#1617 5 years ago

Doctor your full of it. You are not this buyer and you were not buying the next game so quit the charade .
Again except for your personal entertainment how are you tring to help?

#1618 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

pretty sure the preorder model is dead across the board?
I know I will not ever preorder again.

Possibly! I'm okay with that personally. But I could see someone still getting pre-orders if they can convince people they're responsible enough. And I think there are probably some interesting ways you could handle orders that might attract people still.

But you'd have to have a compelling pitch and a brand that was really solid. Spooky for instance has enough credibility IMHO to have pre-orders, they're shipping a game.

If WOOLY had been able to be done at $6500 I bet you'd be back in, and they'd have enough to have people on board. No license issues (obviously), good code, and Spooky as the company providing assurance.

Kevin just has too much baggage. I mean, here we are, a year from when games should have been originally shipping, according to him, and we're still arguing about the license. I'm not saying he doesn't have it. But I also don't believe he does. Frankly his vague word isn't enough for me. And that's just someone who I wouldn't do future business with, at least on a "trust me, it will be done in X years" kind of basis.

11
#1619 5 years ago
Quoted from DocRotCod:

I think that's where the big debate is. People see it as the rest of 'us' being negative and unsupportive. From our perspective, we don't want to see anyone lose their ass on this deal. I certainly don't want anyone to be hung out to dry. Time will tell.

If you truly "don't want to see anyone lose their ass on this deal" then why contribute in ways that could make things worse?

My expectation is that if SkitB goes under, my money will be gone. I took that risk into consideration each time I sent in a deposit.

It's annoying to see people who have nothing invested fanning the flames (regardless of where they want to assign blame) and say they're doing it to protect me. How does that protect me?

If the worst of what people are speculating is true, my money is as good as gone. It's too late to help me now.

But if it's not true, then consider the following:

If the things you say contribute to damaging the moral of the people at SkitB, how does that protect me?

If the things you say contribute to a run on the bank that leads to SkitB going under, how does that protect me?

In reality, I don't think the things people say here can cause the demise of SkitB, but I just don't understand the rational.

#1620 5 years ago
Quoted from Aurich:

Possibly! I'm okay with that personally. But I could see someone still getting pre-orders if they can convince people they're responsible enough. And I think there are probably some interesting ways you could handle orders that might attract people still.
But you'd have to have a compelling pitch and a brand that was really solid. Spooky for instance has enough credibility IMHO to have pre-orders, they're shipping a game.
If WOOLY had been able to be done at $6500 I bet you'd be back in, and they'd have enough to have people on board. No license issues (obviously), good code, and Spooky as the company providing assurance.

I could see a pre-order model working in the future, if several conditions were met:

1) Experienced management, with a proven track record
2) Deposits held in escrow, and managed by a trustee
3) Open communication with the pinball community
4) External capital from a bank (debt) &/or investors (equity)

The presence of #'s 1-3 could greatly influence #4.

Under the above scenario, I could see a pre-order model working successfully going forward.

10
#1621 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

How often do we hear "there is zero reason for x" or the "only possible reason(s) for x is y(w,z, etc)", stated as if they are all knowing. For some reason these statements almost always point to something dire.
Is such hyperbole helpful or does it merely serve to fan the flames?

Hyperbole? How in anyones eyes could 3 months with no response to a refund request be exaggerated? Are you serious? I don't typically get involved in drama but when several fellow pinsider asks for their deposit back with zero communication it's far from hyperbole for me or anyone to question it!!

I didn't say the pin wasn't being built or even that the kids in the basement weren't trying but when or where in your life have you waited 3 MONTHS for a refundable deposit on a consumer product??? C'Mon man... I love all yall

#1622 5 years ago

For the majority, I think the pre order model is doa. Even if deposits could be held in trust, you still have gameplay and code as question marks. This past 12 months has been particularly rough for buyers. Show me and if I like, I'll then buy.

-2
#1623 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Couldn't disagree more....
There might be 10 people with enough "WTF-Cash" to bet on Kevin again, but i cant imagine enough to make a full project work.....at least not pre-order.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Many of the pinball enthusiasts I know do not follow pinside regularly and some not at all. Imagine that!

If Predator turns out to be good and SkitB shows up to the shows with a pretty complete prototype of a title that people want (unfortunately, EOD does not immediately grab attention), I think they would get preorders to build the game, if the game is either limited to 250 machines like Predator, or they give enough pre-order perks to make it worth it.

A lot of "ifs", but my point is that I don't think the way Predator has been handled will matter enough to make much of a difference. Say maybe 10% out of a 250 machine limited edition run would be 25 people who wouldn't sign up for the next hot title solely because of the what they experienced or read about Predator on Pinside.

I think those 25 spots would be easily filled by people who were either sitting on the sidelines to see if Predator turned out to be a good solid title or never even heard about Predator until after it came out.

#1624 5 years ago

I'd like to pledge $20.

Oup...sh!t, my bad, I thought this was 'The Official Pinside Skit-B Predator Donations' thread

#1625 5 years ago

I'm not into loaning at 0% interest rate. If you want to start a company, get investments, get your own loans. If I were to pre order any game, I'd expect to pay 8-10% less, and be guaranteed a ship by date. If that date wasn't met, I'd expect my money back plus interest.
Just my opinion, flame on.

#1626 5 years ago

Relax fellas, these guys were dead wrong about TBL/DP and they will be proven wrong on this too.

#1627 5 years ago

Sorry guys. I hope you get your game without any issues. Really mean that. That's what it boils down to.

#1628 5 years ago

Well...I was just trying to lighten the mood here. I'm sure everything will work out one way or the other.

#1629 5 years ago

Words of encouragement. Much better gang.

Two weeks or so and then we get to see what's what.

#1630 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

pretty sure the preorder model is dead across the board?
I know I will not ever preorder again.

I would pre-order with Spooky if it was a theme I was interested in...I know that is not their business model but if it was I would be comfortable with it...

-3
#1631 5 years ago

Can we change the name of this thread to:

"The blind faith Predator Pinball support group"

#1632 5 years ago
Quoted from hassellcastle:

Can we change the name of this thread to:
"The blind faith Predator Pinball support group"

I like,

Predator - In It Till the End: Hero or Zero!

better.

#1633 5 years ago

Well, to lighten up the mood so that we all feel better... Last night I sat down to a pot of homemade chili and watch the Predator movie. It don't get no better than that!

#1634 5 years ago

Screenused auction coming up shortly has a few nice topper options...final scene clapboard, and Dutch's machete.

#1635 5 years ago

I was just checking that out myself! Pretty cool I might throw a bid down. I'm still upset about the last action hero axe I missed a year ago. I should have bid higher

#1636 5 years ago

I feel the same way about Bretts ballcap from Alien that was auctioned not all that long ago. The clapboard I guess is not the final shot, but whatever it was used last for...very cool piece, I'll be watching it.

#1637 5 years ago
Quoted from PaulCoff:

Hope Ted can hammer this one out. Thanks for your efforts.ted.jpg1

This shot says to me "A mountain of cocaine you say? And valleys littered with hookers? I'll take that challenge!!"
P.S. I've just invented "manscaping", in 20 years all the kids will be into it...

#1638 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

If you truly "don't want to see anyone lose their ass on this deal" then why contribute in ways that could make things worse?
My expectation is that if SkitB goes under, my money will be gone. I took that risk into consideration each time I sent in a deposit.
It's annoying to see people who have nothing invested fanning the flames (regardless of where they want to assign blame) and say they're doing it to protect me. How does that protect me?
If the worst of what people are speculating is true, my money is as good as gone. It's too late to help me now.
But if it's not true, then consider the following:
If the things you say contribute to damaging the moral of the people at SkitB, how does that protect me?
If the things you say contribute to a run on the bank that leads to SkitB going under, how does that protect me?
In reality, I don't think the things people say here can cause the demise of SkitB, but I just don't understand the rational.

Because it's a discussion forum that's open for discussion whether you agree with the view or not? It'd be a lame ass forum if no one ever posted thoughts or feelings, because really, they're not many facts to go around.

#1639 5 years ago
Quoted from Jvspin:

I decided to support Skit B because of the Predator prototype, my own optimism and because of Kevin's apparent sincerity and love of pinball. The sound, artwork and Kevin's description of what kinds of rules and shots make a "great" game leads me to think it will be a game I like, even though the playfield layout is simple (similar to T2).
Making a one-off and making 250 machines are two very different things. I fully expected he would have tons to learn and that there was no way he would be anywhere close to his original time estimates.
It is still my belief that Kevin is honestly doing his best to complete this project. I also figure that he is making very little if anything for all of his time and effort. I suspect that keeping his integrity and making a bunch of pinheads happy is what's driving him to complete the project.
If that is the case, can you imagine what it must be like to read Pinside and see all the things people are accusing you of?
He stated in one of his updates that for the sake of his own mental health he no longer reads Pinside. I kind of hope he doesn't because if I were in his shoes, it would be difficult to not let it affect me or get caught up in all the drama.
People say it only takes a few minutes to post a response but how long does it take to follow all of the posts? Seems like some people are monitoring pinside 12+ hours a day. For certain personality types (myself included) it can be very hard to disengage once you get involved.
There just isn't enough time for that when there are machines to get out!

I think what is disappointing to many folks (at least to me) is this is the place that the game was promoted the most and to solicit funding. If returning to the place that, "Seeded" your first project creates a hazard to your personal health then I question if said person is in a position anyway to complete the project. Also, I do not think anybody is demanding/expecting Kevin to read each and every post here. True that would be time consuming. I myself do not even read all posts in a thread. However, surely he could post an excerpt from the Fox License....a photo of a near completed pin...a personal paragraph to the 250 purchasers and the pinside community??? Once in awhile??? Again the place that you utilized to sell these pins??? Uh huh...makes many wonder why

#1640 5 years ago

<<<Because it's a discussion forum that's open for discussion whether you agree with the view or not? It'd be a lame ass forum if no one ever posted thoughts or feelings, because really, they're not many facts to go around. >>>
----------Posted by MattRasmussen

I agree with this 100%. It is a public forum. Whether you bought one or not you should be able to express a concern or opinion without being attacked and called a troll. There are some serious issues at hand here. Not just the communication black hole and not just the timeline being shattered...also not just the question of the license. It has been mentioned earlier and still remains valid. What happens post ownership and a technical issue arises? Will the inner circle of Kevins friends be the only owners who get treated fine and the rest ignored? Will your emails go unanswered as you stare at a non working $5k pinball machine in the corner of the room? Will some "elite" inner circle friends get code updates and you do not?

A very valid concern is post ownership. To predict such will exist or not exist, one must ponder known information and attempt to forecast a reasonable outlook down the road. Reading this and every Predator thread...reading the near empty Skit B website....listening to a phone ring and ring and ring unanswered....what would your, "reasonable outlook" be for post ownership support??? Throw in the fact that a percentage of Skitb resources have been devoted to EOD during the attempt to push Predator pins forward. With All Predator Pinball machines out the door, how much of SkitB resources be devoted to EOD and possibly another future pin? 85%?....90%?....100%?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#1641 5 years ago
Quoted from jrawlinson_2000:

I've asked for a refund a number of times over the past couple of months and not even got a reply to acknowledge receipt of the email!
I don't care how busy you are a simply two word reply is all, 'on it'.
If there is no big deal with the licence then just say so don't wait two fecking weeks....

I've also asked for a refund with no response.

I've been a supporter of this project for a long time and I hope this has a happy ending, but I've had enough of the vague updates and lack of clarity.

#1642 5 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Again the place that you utilized to sell these pins??? Uh huh...makes many wonder why

I bought in to the pin after seeing it and playing it in person and in spite of the advertising on Pinside. I have to think that the vast majority of people that have bought in did so after playing at expo or allentown that first year the proto was out. I will say it was nice to feel you had a real part of the development and were not merely an eventual owner when SkitB hung out on Pinside.

However, pinside has gone WAY down hill since that time. It is by and large a more negative place and all doom and gloom so it is hard to blame an artist and developer from going underground. Kevin does not owe anything to anyone besides those that paid in. It may be a bad business idea, but he definately does not owe it to pinside to come here. That would be like saying Stern sells the majority of their LEs to Pinsiders so they owe it to us to come here and talk to us.

Many people here don't seem to realize the difference in providing constructive critisisim and just plain being a critic. At the same time, there are obviously a few genuine trolls that seem to hate everything about all pinball and endlessly bash on everything that is not them/their personal interest. These people then make it hard to even read through to the constructive critiques and they all get lumped together pretty easily.

#1643 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

It may be a bad business idea, but he definately does not owe it to pinside to come here.

You're correct, he doesn't have to do anything. We'll see what happens when it's time to drum up sales for title 2.

Stern doesn't come here to drum up sales either. So, they're not trying to have it both ways. If Skit-b wants to wash their hands of pinside, then that is fair, but it has to be for everything.

#1644 5 years ago

Actually Whysnow you are incorrect. Kevin personally told my wife, best friend and I that 75% of the orders (back then, not sure about now), came from Pinside. This was at the Mich Expo. Kevins mother was also there and informed me of a couple tidbits. However, we gave our word we would not repeat. They were all positive comments btw so not to be perceived as mud slinging.

#1645 5 years ago
Quoted from Pubaw:

Actually Whysnow you are incorrect. Kevin personally told my wife, best friend and I that 75% of the orders (back then, not sure about now), came from Pinside. This was at the Mich Expo. Kevins mother was also there and informed me of a couple tidbits. However, we gave our word we would not repeat. They were all positive comments btw so not to be perceived as mud slinging.

Sure, I put my name on a list, but no way did I buy in untill I played the game at expo 2? years ago and then again at MPE.

I am sure lots of people from pinside put their name down when it was a no risk situation, but the vast majority surely played the game in person before deciding to actually buy/ provide $$$. 100% of the buyer I personally know, played the game before ever handingover money. Most of those people are pinsiders, but they paid due to the shows where they played the game.

#1646 5 years ago

I was just thinking:
I feel bad for the poor bastard who hasn't logged on in a few days, sees 500 new posts in this thread and thinks "Damn, they must have shipped a machine" ... or at the very least, "there MUST be some actual new factual information"

#1647 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I was just thinking:
I feel bad for the poor bastard who hasn't logged on in a few days, sees 500 new posts in this thread and thinks "Damn, they must have shipped a machine" ... or at the very least, "there MUST be some actual new factual information"

nope, still the same haters trolling for more reactions...

#1648 5 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I was just thinking:
I feel bad for the poor bastard who hasn't logged on in a few days, sees 500 new posts in this thread and thinks "Damn, they must have shipped a machine" ... or at the very least, "there MUST be some actual new factual information"

That would be me Except it was a couple of weeks. Does sound like something has happened, but can't quite figure out what. But sort of sounds like whatever it is, it has not really happened yet. Be nice if there was a 'summary' type post every 100 posts or something like that, that could be flagged as such by a moderator (maybe something I should suggest to Robin).

33
#1649 5 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

TBe nice if there was a 'summary' type post

Here you go, the 30-second summary:

Kevin sent a note saying "there have been many recent actions by
certain parties that threaten the very existence of everything I've done to
keep this project going for the past few years"
****** that made some people nervous

Kevin also said, "no matter what, nobody is going to
get left out to dry on this one, I can promise you that."
****** that made some people less nervous

Some anonymous folks said(among other things), "SkitB does not have a valid license for the pinball and that Fox has served Kevin with a C&D which he ignored. And, an expose is forthcoming- The sky *IS* falling"
****** that made some people nervous

SpfxdTed called Kevin and passed along "The game is being made. The license is ok. Cant go into details NOW, but in 2 weeks time all will be made clear. Dont panic"
****** that made people less nervous

In between all that, I called Whysnow a boob, he called me a troll. Rinse, repeat and that is about the sum of all things.

17
#1650 5 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

nope, still the same haters trolling for more reactions...

Given how disappointed you get with non-buyers making negative comments in this thread, I am always surprised to see you popping up in MMr threads with nothing good to say. Undermines your point.

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