I'm kinda interested in how you paid for these machines. Was it 10K cash, no receipt, no bank withdrawal? How did you back up your claim of purchase? Witnesses?

Was it a barter? Gift?

I'm curious, because there seems to be some key issues that could be cleared up with proof/explanation of compensation.

Yes, I found the cash withdrawal on my bank records. And it correlates to the day I brought the game home (EOD parts came way later, several months, so it wasn't that much money) and posted a single pic on my private (not public) Facebook page. I probably have a few dozen pinhead friends so I don't know who pulled the pic and posted it elsewhere but I have my suspicions. But no, I did not have that (bank records) at the time of the deposition. Why? Because when I talked to Keith just the day before and explained I had NO affiliation with Skit-B and barely knew Kevin he said something along the lines of oh, well then I guess it will just be a real quick statement from you stating that (although yes, he seemed surprised the game was not on loan to me). In fact, during the deposition (in which Keith asked 1000 questions even completely unrelated to the case) I was off by several months on when I actually bought it (I said I thought it was very early Spring but it was actually in the Fall prior). But as I testified, I really didn't remember the exact date or even month (I do buy and sell lots of pins and I was giving the deposition more than a year after I had bought it, time flies.) Additionally, I actually called Keith the next day and clarified the date even volunteering to come back in and clarify my testimony. He never called back. Regardless, between the bank withdrawal and the FB post on that date, yes, I have proof. I have no problem going in front of a court and tell my story. No problem. That's why I had no problem showing up for a deposition. To suggest I "haven't been cooperating from the beginning" is so ridiculous. Cooperate with whom? Prior to getting a subpoena NOBODY ever contacted me to ask me even ONE single question. Not even whether I had the game!! The very first I heard about them having questions for me came via a subpoena which I showed up for on time. No attempt to delay. Answered every single question to the best of my knowledge at the time. So tell me Whysnow, WHO have I not been cooperating with exactly?

Well, if that it true, and the lawyer representing the pre-order crowd here went ahead and submitted those claims in the manner he did, that changes my opinion quite a bit.

I get that it's his job to claw and scrape every angle, but I would hold contempt for him going ahead with the challenge of ownership when there is evidence he did not follow-up on. That is negligent and downright lazy.

I also understand the raving hornet's nest of people that lost their money here, but I don't think from what I've seen here that you're obligated to turn over anything. Naturally, I would also consider any information that I don't have to change that stance, if valid.

Isn't this the same lawyer who filed the original case in the wrong court altogether? Or no?

Don't feel like sleeping, so putting some detective skills to use...

Does Steven Woods, the build manager for Skit-B, aka HOSS-WOODS also have a Predator machine I wonder?

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread?tq&tu=HOSS-WOODS

If that's not enough, it says he started working at VirtuaPin on December 5, 2016. I already saved a 170+ page PDF file of all of his public posts, pics, comments & etc. if KeithinMI or anyone else needs it. He seems pretty chummy with the Kuleks still.

Also, for pics of him with other machines, in front of other locations that may or may not be related to Kevin & hiding games, assets & etc. & confirmation he's still on Amanda & Kevin's friends lists, see:

https://www.facebook.com/woodsbouncer?pnref=friends.search

285672_4630028426775_24238885_n (resized).jpg
557015_4509537574579_72851155_n (resized).jpg
10294419_10203844280205488_8180538838330352487_n (resized).jpg
10473367_10203844282645549_1993106304055755407_n (resized).jpg
10527534_10204073217368774_1879752314373492643_n (resized).jpg

Steve worked for VirtuaPin (at least for a period of time, during one of my visits). Those photos you shared are inside, behind and in front of the VirtuaPin place of operation. SkitB's shop space was across the lot, in the same small business park.

Aaron
FAST Pinball

IMG_8929 (resized).JPG

IMG_8935 (resized).JPG

IMG_8927 (resized).JPG

I had a response typed up before, but I somehow lost it. In short...

No, the developers often would make prototypes before finalization of the licensing agreement.

The thing is, and why I think this falls into a weird grey area that they usually seem to look away from, an unscrupulous person couldn't benefit from it. You would have to build something and then go bankrupt doing it and then couldn't collect the benefits of selling it. Because of that, and that bankruptcy courts aren't going to contact every potential rights holder to confirm rights, they just want to move on, I think a lot just ends up getting sold.

If not, and there was no reclaimable value to the games, why would they be gone after? If this Tim guy ends up needing to give back the games and they get destroyed, that time would be lost with no monies being paid. There must be some assumed value there if Keith is going after them.

There is no chance IP claims can be brought into the concern of the machines that were bought by a third party. The infringement was not committed by the purchaser it was committed by the seller. Even that can be argued, since the purchaser has stated that the items were bought for educational use, which is indeed fair use (if he was ever challenged).

The item is not being marketed or reproduced, and is not a counterfeit of an official offering. No harm to the IP can be shown.

If the machines were still property of skitb, then they could be seized and destroyed, and that's ONLY because they would be offered up for sale as part of the bankruptcy proceedings.

Then it sounds like it comes down to what was said in the deposition and/or what can be proved. On the one hand, Keith in his filing of doc #37 says Kevin still owns Predator and it is on loan to Tim. On the other hand, we have Tim here that says he can prove he paid for it from a party once removed from Kevin. That will ultimately be a decision by the court I suppose, unless Tim decides to voluntarily return the pin to the trustee of Kevin's bankruptcy proceedings.

I'm no lawyer, but that's what I glean from all the conversations.

Lastly, I know emotions are raw on this subject, and alot of people were burnt in this process. I have my own opinion of Tim's actions (not the man, never met him), but I'm with the earlier Mod posting....let's hear him out. Whether truth's, half-truth's, middle truth's or outright lies, any information that can be added to this might lead to new avenues in the prosecution of Kevin. From lies being dispelled to new truth's clarifying the situation.

or... Tim could actually cooperate and provide all the info on the party he claims to have bought it from.

I do like that his 'evidence' of purchase is a bank withdrawal. Keep in mind the date of purchase already changed from his deposition and anyone of us that buys games can show you a cash withdrawal on a specific date in a 3-6 month period. The courts wont look kindly on someone that is changing his story, the story is in opposition to others depositions, and he is still in possession of the 1 game currently proven to exist. Guessing the judge also wont take kindly to his flaunting of it on social media and his character is already well established with his more that 5 accounts and bait and switch tactics on here.

Well if he actually wanted to provide some facts, then sure... but those should have been provided under deposition. Is the new precedent that you are allowed to have multiple accounts if you have a fun story to tell? I can understand your sick curiosity (hell i wonder what stupid thing he is going to claim next) but this flys directly in the opposition to the ToS and Pinsides previous stance. I personally dont think it is a positive to let someone continually make duplicate accounts, hide behind them for months telling lies, and then pop out once they are uncovered and make up more stories. If the guy really wanted to cooperate he would have done so under deposition and provided real facts. Tiger >> What sort of actual evidence would you ask for to corroborate Tim's new story? Now ask yourself why that evidence has never been provided and the guy suddenly reappears once the Pacer notes get posted.

But Kevin did NOT have the right to sell it.

Pointed question to you Hilton. Have you personally read the depositions? Not what you've been told or surmised or heard through the grapevine. But have you been personally privy to the Depositions?

Wait.. what?!? So you're finally admitting you're Tim?!?

Robin, Tigerlaw, WTF. So, let's say I want to come back here as "someone else", all I need to do is inactivate this account and then get a new one?!? And now I can masquerade as someone anonymous with no post history?

Yep, it's true.

This guy is an absolute disaster.

I agree that this is a "special circumstance" and Tim should be allowed to post, maybe in this thread only. 99.9% of all dupe accounts though, nope.

You can have as many accounts as you care to make. Don't necessarily have to inactivate your current. Most IPs are not static, so how is pinside supposed to officially incapacitate someones ability to be a pinside member? Sorry if I am not getting your point or if you are being sarcastic, I'm not good at the sarcasm meter if this is the case .

Yeah... same way we took you before all this Predator crap blew over ...

I upvoted TigerLaw's post. Yes, I admit it, I am weak...drawn in by some hidden, sordid voyeuristic tendencies. Mind you, it's not that I believe the pictures being painted in all their photo-shopped, airbrushed glory. In fact, that is part of the fun...deciphering where real starts, spin picks-up and complete falsehood takes over.
And so I shout "Do not stifle the Brickshot!"

not everyone, since I tend to sell to buy, given limited space for machines, (plus the most I've ever spent on a pin is $3200 for a LOTR), I have probably bought my last 8 or 9 machines with the cash from the last sale and withdrew nothing from the bank. In addition, I don't think I could tell you on any machine I have, the month and year I bought or traded for it. I guess I could probably go back to pinballlife emails to see if there were specific parts I ordered to repair a machine, which might give me a close approximation as to when. Obviously we are not talking about a rare and controversially pins and in my cases and they were never that much money.

I suspect there are some guys here in cash businesses, where the money used for games never sees the inside of a bank.

I'm lucky to remember what I ate for breakfast yesterday....I couldn't tell you when or how I bought any machines person to person. All cash deals...I usually keep a slush fund of cash on person that's increased through sales and decreased through purchases. So hopefully I'll never have to testify when I bought something or prove I did. Might give me pause on documenting that in the future.

I was just writing the same thing when I read both posts. I keep $15K in the house and take and put back to that pile for various hobby things I buy and sell.
I also could not tell you what I had for dinner 2 days ago....

I am guessing all you guys with limited memory would very quickly and easily reconstruct a purchase and the details prior to showing up for a deposition, correct?

I may not remember each game, but you can be damn sure I remember the important ones. If I could not remember the details, you can be damn sure I could/would get my facts straight from looking through old PMs, email, text, phone records; and have your shit together.

I at least hope/assume most of you are smart enough to have it all together with proof when you show up for a deposition.

Address please... .......... Joey

No. And I don't have to. It's up to you to prove I did something wrong. I don't have to prove what I did was right.

Just because your crops shriveled and died doesn't mean I'm a witch.

But do you float?

Just to clarify my position:

I alerted my brother and sister mods once the confession/reveal was made. I have elected to not ban Tim myself, but my decision to take no action does not impede any of them from taking an action and I'm sure eventually one will ban the account... The rule is no duplicate accounts (and that is not changed by my decision here to do nothing about Tim for the time being) I'm just electing to continue to watch this train wreck in this thread and see if Tim wants to share any juicy tid bits.

Tim doesn't have any credibility with me personally, he's told many lies to me over the years (about his various dupe accounts...), but Tim might have some interesting intel. At least this version of Tim has a sense of humor by the way (the CrazyBanana, pinchili and Crazy4Pin handles were humorless and lame).

I'm certainly not the strictest mod around here, I freely admit that, I personally give entertainment value to posts and if something is interesting I often allow rules to be slightly bent (it's my moderating style, doesn't mean it's the official decision of the site and frequently other mods will moderate something I have left alone, which is great...that's why we are a team).

I think Keith is within his rights to demand a return of the machine. The sale of the machine to Tim did NOTHING for the creditors so in my eyes it was a preferential transfer and should be reversed (Tim gets his money back or becomes a creditor of Kevin like the rest of us and the game gets turned over to the bankruptcy trustee). I think Keith has done a phenomenal job in the case - I'd let Keith represent me on anything, I'm impressed with him and his diligence.

Seriously. I buy and sell all too much and it's not just games. I've bought and sold dozens of playfields, parts, and all sorts of pinball crap. I've dealt with dozens and dozens of folks and deals. I'm supposed to remember exact numbers paid and dates? There was no email or FS thread to go hunt down in this case. It was a phone call from a buddy I talk to regularly and I showed up with cash. Again, talking to Keith the day before the deposition he made it sound like he just wanted to hear me say under oath that I had no affiliation with Skit-B or Kevin and it would be a simple thing. Real Mr. Friendly guy. I had no problem with that. Then he hit me with the 1000 specific questions which I answered the best I could at the time. Again, I called him the next day and volunteered to clarify my testimony under oath after it became apparent he wanted much more specific info. I was happy to help. He never called me again.

But keep dragging my name through the mud and slandering me. We'll see where this goes alright.

If you really want a new name just ask Robin and he has the power to change your username. No need to do something dumb like me and have your current account frozen first.

I'm a little surprised there are some supposedly "grown" men here who are so deeply concerned about someone creating a subsequent account like I'm a convicted murderer. Frustrating to the mods I'm sure, it is far less effort for me to create another account (in the event of being 'frozen') then it takes for them to do all the detective work and what I suspect is probably a whole lot of back and forth discussion among themselves. As noted, I've been on here for 5-6 months with no problems with anyone. But when Whysnow keeps going on in this thread riling the folks with pitchforks into a frenzy and slandering me with completely false information, sure, I'll open my mouth to set the record straight. Whysnow is EVERY bit as much off base today with reality as he was when he was convincing everyone this was a legitimate project.

Perhaps after a year or two of lies and slander from him I'll also eventually get the "Oops, I guess I was wrong. Sorry. Okay, carry on" like the damage wasn't already done.

Or weigh more than a duck?

Count 1 in the Fife motion is requesting the avoidance of a fraudulent transfer of real property under 11 USC 548(a)(1)(A), with actual intent...

--------------------------------------------------

§548. Fraudulent transfers and obligations

(a)(1) The trustee may avoid any transfer (including any transfer to or for the benefit of an insider under an employment contract) of an interest of the debtor in property, or any obligation (including any obligation to or for the benefit of an insider under an employment contract) incurred by the debtor, that was made or incurred on or within 2 years before the date of the filing of the petition, if the debtor voluntarily or involuntarily—

(A) made such transfer or incurred such obligation with actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud any entity to which the debtor was or became, on or after the date that such transfer was made or such obligation was incurred, indebted; or

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCODE-2011-title11/html/USCODE-2011-title11-chap5-subchapIII-sec548.htm

--------------------------------------------------

Keith is claiming that the transfer of the pinball machines by Kevin Kulek (Debtor) to Tim Fife (Defendant) was made with the actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud creditors.

I dont think you fully understand how a deposition works and the potential ramifications from telling things that are not full truths. You better damn well believe I have my ducks in a row BEFORE I show up for a deposition.

100%! Kieth has done a great job and his diligence/actions have been fun to watch! He is a smooth operator and I am amazed with some of the things he knows/does.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/did-you-sell-me-an-earthshaker-with-clearcoated-pf

Technically? Sure. But this is taken from the Community Rules of this site:

We don’t allow members to open multiple accounts, nor do we allow members to create accounts designed to impersonate others.

sorry, I was not under deposition... I also figured that out with a little digging...

just sayin

One more note for pinball history posterity in the event I'm frozen shortly. I testified to this but I'll make it public here too. EOD was (and is) a small handful of parts. FAR from a game. The game was completely bastardized before I got the leftover parts. There are zero boards in the game (despite what I see above in a pic) and there was no computer with any code. Nothing, bare bones. The cabinet has numerous dings and scratches to the artwork. I believe the game was stored outside in a garage over the winter months because all of the inserts on the playfield popped up (under an overlay of the artwork). So it's not even usable if I ever did want to try and finish the game (I didn't realize this until I got it home.) I did get a document containing a VERY detailed set of rules that were planned for the game (Kevin was/is good in this department, IMO). I also got a full set of audio recordings that were done for the game. Apparently Kevin managed to have a full recording session for game callouts with Jamie and Adam of MythBusters at some point. It's interesting to listen to the recordings but it's all raw. I also got zero actual game code. The top of the playfield is missing some of the key planned toys (that ARE out there somewhere). The playfield sits out of the cab today in a pile of other spare parts I have looking like an abandoned building. That's where EOD has ended up.

He's preserving that argument. The argument, as I would interpret it, is Kevin was santatizing items to get them out of what would be the bankruptcy estate and converting them to cash that he could easily spend before and during his bankruptcy proceedings. Again, I'm not a bankruptcy guy or IP guy, but that's how I read the position Keith is taking.

Uh, isn't that what he said?

Hey Tim, were you an already paid in full customer? If not, those customers would have been in line to get the unit before you. (Not that this would have ever happened.) So, in effect, Kulek sold a piece of merchandise that was already sold (to about 200 people). So, Kulek would be double-selling the same item multiple times. Can't be legal IMHO.
And your bank withdrawal statement: That does not authenticate the transaction with Kulek if you don't have a receipt.
Now, if you could simply shut the f*%K up perhaps we could stand by for some actual useful information about what is proceeding.

Rant over.

Yes, you're correct. I was reading and posting too quickly (misread his point) and merely restated what he said. It happens to me from time to time.

Tim could go and sell the Predator prototype he has to some guy he's never met in a Sears parking lot for cash and I don't think there is anything anyone can do about it.

A lawyer who admits he's wrong?? Be careful, you could be disbarred

Disbarment is usually only reserved for lawyers who have the balls to go after crooked judges and courts, based on what I've seen over the years.

True, a copy of the deposition would be good to read through.

I'm not making a judgement call on Tim's character or the perception of those that view him on Pinside. I'm basing my opinion on the facts as they are presented (as such they are). Looking at it critically, without being involved with the emotions of the situation it's easier for me to see the weak arguments.

That doesn't address the issue of the buyer. How does this change the statement of the purchaser?

A lawyer that doesn't work for you, calling for a deposition is no friend to you...ever. This lawyer had a strategy of recovery from you from the start. The fact that he didn't let you amend your deposition when you called him should have been a red flag...

You need to look at your laws concerning the deposition and what your rights are to review, and correction. If you don't, it could be used against you in your absence to push his agenda in court. The claims he issued to the court show this already. IMO, you should be consulting a lawyer yourself.

No, it was not merchandise. It was a prototype.... That is outside the scope of your statement.

been following this thread since the very beginning. no hyperbole, the only useful information in this thread are the deposition screencaps and tims response to them. He is the only one with first hand experience, and just because you dont like the info hes giving, doesnt mean it isnt useful. the mentality of: "we dont like what youre saying, shut the f!@# up" is why this s!@# snowball has become an avalanche of misinformation.

perhaps if more people gave credit to the things we didnt want to hear, rather than just tuning out everything that didnt fit their narrative this would have never happened. not defending kevin or tim, just pointing out that its time to put our big boy britches on and start swallowing some hard truths. and the first step in that is dropping the "tell us what we wanna hear or go away" attitude that has been rampant in this thread since the beginning.

Or in Kevin's case, some "middle truths."

and hopefully later, a suppository of some hard truths!!!

Maybe I missed this somewhere, but is it known where the second prototype is?

And there were supposedly parts to build 10 additional games. Were these parts complete enough to actually build additional machines? Short of the alleged one (or two) that Mr. Personality has, is it known where the rest of this stuff is? I would assume that this same shitstorm is coming for the owners of these as well?

i dont think the same shitstorm is coming for those owners. very soon this whole legal part of the saga will conclude. People will realize that trying to get something from the legal system is an even greater exercise in futility than trying to get a pinball machine from some kids in the basement. I very much hope to be proven wrong on this though.

I'm really thinking this Steven Woods probably has a prototype, he's chummy with the Kuleks and lives within an hour of them.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/256#post-3527295

I don't think you have been following this thread close enough.

like i said, i hope to be proven wrong.