(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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#12701 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

This probably doesn't matter (I'm not sure) but technically it was traded for some arcade games deemed equal value at the time I believe. THEN a while later cash was paid for Predator by the current "defendant" in document 37. The "defendant" never dealt with or even saw Kevin. Not sure why document 37 does not make that more clear but it was testified to under oath by both individuals. Probably won't change anyone's feelings or opinions but just for clarification sake.

Well Tim, did you have receipts for the sale and value of the arcade games? Or is "deemed" just good enough for the courts in PinConing?

#12702 2 years ago
Quoted from emkay:

Sure you will.

This IS my single active account. Truth.

I actually learned yesterday there is an actual feature now to "drain it". I actually thought it was just a figure of speech to say I'll leave the thread for now (which was 48 hours ago), lol. If you want me to drain it for good and not post actual facts on the matter I'll go back to the sidelines.

#12703 2 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

Well Tim, did you have receipts for the sale and value of the arcade games? Or is "deemed" just good enough for the courts in PinConing?

I'm just curious but how many receipts do you have for games you bought used from another collector? Do you not typically pay cash in person after inspecting the game and forgo the receipt?

Regardless, there is zero burden on the defendant here to prove with a receipt that he bought something. He testified under oath he did and another person corroborated it under oath as well. I suspect this is why Kevin did not show up in November and again in December (it may have conflicted with his saying under oath that he "loaned" the game.) Never happened.

#12704 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

I'm just curious but how many receipts do you have for games you bought used from another collector? Do you not typically pay cash in person after inspecting the game and forgo the receipt?
Regardless, there is zero burden on the defendant here to prove with a receipt that he bought something. He testified under oath he did and another person corroborated it under oath as well. I suspect this is why Kevin did not show up in November and again in December (it may have conflicted with his saying under oath that he "loaned" the game.) Never happened.

Another collector? Kevin declared himself a producer and seller and collected $1M+. That is not a collector so if he sold an item it should have a bill of sale and a warranty statement. These crank-barrel arguments are not even good in a cartoon court.

#12705 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

I'm just curious but how many receipts do you have for games you bought used from another collector? Do you not typically pay cash in person after inspecting the game and forgo the receipt?

If you are a person that has a Predator, and you come face to face with a friend who lost their money on it. What do you say to them?

#12706 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

If you are a person that has a Predator, and you come face to face with a friend who lost their money on it. What do you say to them?

Hypothetically of course. I do not know anyone in Michigan personally who was a pre-order. I'm not sure if there was more than 1 or 2? Perhaps Dayhuff in Michigan was? But I do not know him personally. Regardless, I would say A friend I buy and sell games with often said "Hey, any interest in a prototype? It's buggy with some issues but if you're interested ...". Anyone who knows me would know I collect all kinds of pinball paraphernalia. Parts, playfields, rare games, promotional items. I would say I didn't stop to think there are going to be a whole lot of pissed people who are going to terrorize me over it and even (yes) threaten me and my family.

#12707 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

This IS my single active account. Truth.

Only because your other three were shut down. Or were there more?

#12708 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

Only because your other three were shut down. Or were there more?

Can we let this line of questioning go? It's getting old. As I said, if you want me to drain the thread I will. Just trying to provide some facts and clarification for those who are actually interested.

#12709 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

As I said, if you want me to drain the thread I will

Buh-bye. I'm sure we'll see you here with another account soon.

#12710 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Regardless, there is zero burden on the defendant here to prove with a receipt that he bought something.

I think that the Defendant might stand a better chance of keeping his Predator if he produces one.

#12711 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Building a prototype which is never intended to itself be sold for profit sure seems to fall under "fair use". I think you'll find this same point over and over when googling:

Building a one-off for personal use is OK under fair use. Selling it is not, regardless of the original intent when building. I've seen folks sell or trade their 'fair use' built games occasionally, but they do so basically under the radar. Predator is no longer under the radar.

Quoted from Firebaall:

A prototype(s) would be fair use as personal property up until moved to another party. I could build a predator pinball right now, even a few, as long as I didn't sell or distribute them

Exactly.. cannot sell or distribute

Quoted from Firebaall:

They would be actionable assets if the bank came knocking for personal debt liabilities. Since bung hole that has the machines can't produce a receipt for the items, they are still considered personal property of Kevin. i.e. They were never transferred legally, and did not violate IP.

They would not be assets if the rights-holder and bankruptcy court both knew of their existence. The big problem here is that everything is out in the open now. Fox can and will block any transfer of those machines. If you made a fair-use game for personal use and declared BK years later, neither the judge nor especially the rights holder would have a clue and it would be sold like any other pinball you own(ed).

16
#12712 2 years ago

Tim, I actually think you are a fairly smart guy. You can be articulate, and you have given plenty of opinions on various things related to Pinball that I have previously (and even currently in other threads) agreed with.

But dude, when I said earlier in the thread:

Quoted from RobT:

lol
Tim Fife is an idiot.

I really meant it....at least in terms of you buying one of the Predator prototypes. What the hell were you thinking? Saying that you "collect all kinds of pinball paraphernalia" doesn't cut it. Never mind the ethical questions, just from a purely legal standpoint did you consider the ramifications of doing this? It was obvious that anyone who was determined to have this kind of asset could be caught up in the lawsuit.

Was it worth it?

#12713 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

I really meant it....at least in terms of you buying one of the Predator prototypes. What the hell were you thinking? Saying that you "collect all kinds of pinball paraphernalia" doesn't cut it. Never mind the ethical questions, just from a purely legal standpoint did you consider the ramifications of doing this? It was obvious that anyone who was determined to have this kind of asset could be caught up in the lawsuit.

Was it worth it?

THIS. ^^

obviously he couldnt care outside of his own gratification in owning that tainted pin.

#12714 2 years ago
Quoted from MotorCityMatt:

You really think Fox gives a shit? Lol, what a joke. It would cost more money to fly their lawyers out to Michigan than what they would recover from a grown man dressed in pirate suit from Pinconning MI. You ever been through Pinconning? Only thing there is a good cheese shop.

Yea, I think they do. Fox's bread and butter is licensing. Licensing TV shows to affiliates, licensing movies to theatres, cable companies and disc manufacturers, licensing their TV and movie IP to other companies for various products, etc.

This has blown up to the point they HAVE to pay attention and put the hammer down to discourage anyone else from "pulling a Kulek" and pirating their IP in the future. Look at how they got caught with their pants down... if they blow this off and let Kevin pay his liabilities with their IP, someone's gonna see an opportunity and do it again. That is the LAST thing Fox wants.

#12715 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Building a prototype which is never intended to itself be sold for profit sure seems to fall under "fair use". I think you'll find this same point over and over when googling...

Interesting point here... if you argue that the whole thing was a rouse with intent to defraud potential buyers then wouldn't you then be able to say that these "prototypes" were never intended for sale and do in fact fall under fair use... thereby having value that can be sold for recovery.

-17
#12716 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Was it worth it?

From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do. A prototype constitutes fair use IMO (although NO, you can't build 250 prototypes, lol). Was it anticipated some folks would be miffed? Sure. Did I anticipate folks going berzerk and literally threatening to show up at my house and "forcibly" take it? Umm, no. It's a freaking pinball machine. All that money is out there somewhere (it wasn't inside the game). Some folks may know I'm (slowly) making my own game so I really did want it for a lot of the code and to look at things like the powering up and the computer specs used, etc. Pinball is not easy and this has given me some solid help. Could I have possibly gleaned that same info from a miriad of other sources? Apparently so, but this sure seemed awfully convenient. I got a somewhat unique game and I learned a fair amount with it.
In the end, I'm only losing sleep because of a newborn child. Not because of this. If the courts actually demanded I return the game and EOD parts (which are worthless now)? No problem. Remember, it wouldn't be Kevin I would be looking to recoup my money from so I'm sure it won't be an issue.

#12717 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do.

21
#12718 2 years ago

This thread never ceases to amaze me.

#12719 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

In the end, I'm only losing sleep because of a newborn child. Not because of this. If the courts actually demanded I return the game and EOD parts (which are worthless now)? No problem. Remember, it wouldn't be Kevin I would be looking to recoup my money from so I'm sure it won't be an issue.

Congrats on the newborn. You have enough stress in your life with that on it's own. Wouldn't you be better off just turning over the machine and moving on?

#12720 2 years ago
Quoted from robertmee:

This thread never ceases to amaze me.

I agree with that. Over on the UFC boards we'd post this gif about this thread for sure.

IMG_3693.GIF

16
#12721 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do. A prototype constitutes fair use IMO (although NO, you can't build 250 prototypes, lol). Was it anticipated some folks would be miffed? Sure. Did I anticipate folks going berzerk and literally threatening to show up at my house and "forcibly" take it? Umm, no. It's a freaking pinball machine. All that money is out there somewhere (it wasn't inside the game). Some folks may know I'm (slowly) making my own game so I really did want it for a lot of the code and to look at things like the powering up and the computer specs used, etc. Pinball is not easy and this has given me some solid help. Could I have possibly gleaned that same info from a miriad of other sources? Apparently so, but this sure seemed awfully convenient. I got a somewhat unique game and I learned a fair amount with it.
In the end, I'm only losing sleep because of a newborn child. Not because of this. If the courts actually demanded I return the game and EOD parts (which are worthless now)? No problem. Remember, it wouldn't be Kevin I would be looking to recoup my money from so I'm sure it won't be an issue.

No. You can't be the only person to get one of these games because you are the criminal's friend while everyone else who paid actual money gets screwed.

Just the thought gets people even more unhappy. Thanks.

#12722 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do. A prototype constitutes fair use IMO

No.

The initial sale was unlicensed. You can't sell stolen property. Building a game filled with Predator IP and selling it with no license is illegal, regardless of original build intent. To allow otherwise opens the door to all kinds of crazy shenanigans (like the idea of selling the game enough times so that it eventually becomes "clean" LOL)

-1
#12723 2 years ago
Quoted from RobT:

Congrats on the newborn. You have enough stress in your life with that on it's own. Wouldn't you be better off just turning over the machine and moving on?

Surrender the 10k spent? Ooof. I have to let the courts decide this one. Regardless, the single game has no chance of recouping everyone's money for them unfortunately, no matter what happens. I understand why I'm a lightning rod right now (that's fine, I have thick skin ... at least until my family is threatened) but there is a bigger picture here and I'm not really part of it. I never had any business dealings or any affiliation with Skit-b whatsoever and I'm not sure how all that money disappeared.

If we all knew where all the other parts were and how many games are still being assembled I'm sure there would be a heck of a lot more vitriol for what has happened than folks have for me right now. Because I think what they're probably doing (IMO) is worthy of hiding from a legal standpoint. Not what I did.

#12724 2 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

I would have thought that generally counterfeit/unlicensed goods would have to be destroyed rather than sold

I was working as a sub contractor for a company that was selling a single, one of a kind $3000 item that was unlicensed. They were contacted by the attorneys for the IP holder and ordered to destroy the one of a kind piece of merchandise they were holding. They never actually destroyed it, and the company / attorneys never followed up. So I'd assume anything is possible at this point. Now granted, there's no way the company I was working with could have turned around and tried to sell it, at least out in the open or online anywhere. I'm sure the attorneys / company holding the license would have really stepped up their game.

#12725 2 years ago

So, what happens? The "proto-type" goes to who? Do you split it up with axes, auction it and split the money? Who does the game go to then and money?

Sorry, these are hard questions because I don't know what the intended outcome people are looking for. Bonfire?

#12726 2 years ago
Quoted from RyanStl:

I don't know what the intended outcome people are looking for.

Maximum punishment and damnation for Kevin and cohorts for life and the fullest amount of restitution / financial compensation / reimbursement available.

#12727 2 years ago
Quoted from RyanStl:

So, what happens? The "proto-type" goes to who? Do you split it up with axes, auction it and split the money? Who does the game go to then and money?
Sorry, these are hard questions because I don't know what the intended outcome people are looking for. Bonfire?

Someone should create a fundraiser with a large target value. Once the target is reached, organize a huge bonfire and burn the game during a live stream event. Then distribute the proceeds pro rata to SkitB creditors.

#12728 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Some folks may know I'm (slowly) making my own game so I really did want it for a lot of the code and to look at things like the powering up and the computer specs used, etc.

Quoted from Brickshot:

I never had any business dealings or any affiliation with Skit-b whatsoever

Not meaning to kick up any (further) shit, but where did the parts come from that you were using to build your own game? Did they come from a third party as well, or directly from Kevin? Or did you mean that you are building a non-Predator game?

(And I can certainly appreciate you providing details on how you came about owning a Predator, whether I agree with your decision(s) or not.)

#12729 2 years ago

I really wish it could end up in a pinball museum somewhere. NOT that place in Vegas. Maybe PAPA, or the place in Banning, CA. Perhaps Lyons Classic Pinball in Colorado?

Perhaps Roger Sharpe could ask Fox if they'd allow one game to be kept for the sake of pinball history.

45
#12730 2 years ago

I love how accounts go from "why do you all claim dupe accounts", you all are attacking me..."no really in a new user". to being lured into admitting who they are... then they act like they never lied at all about it.

Complete and utter liars who have no credibility ever

#12731 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

No.
The initial sale was unlicensed. You can't sell stolen property. Building a game filled with Predator IP and selling it with no license is illegal, regardless of original build intent. To allow otherwise opens the door to all kinds of crazy shenanigans (like the idea of selling the game enough times so that it eventually becomes "clean" LOL)

You're close...but not quite. It's not stolen property, it's infringing property. Huge difference. If it can be shown he acquired it with compensation to the owner, he's got a strong case to hold on to it. The seller however.....

Quoted from sevenrites:

I was working as a sub contractor for a company that was selling a single, one of a kind $3000 item that was unlicensed. They were contacted by the attorneys for the IP holder and ordered to destroy the one of a kind piece of merchandise they were holding. They never actually destroyed it, and the company / attorneys never followed up. So I'd assume anything is possible at this point. Now granted, there's no way the company I was working with could have turned around and tried to sell it, at least out in the open or online anywhere. I'm sure the attorneys / company holding the license would have really stepped up their game.

A lawyer can demand anything...

-6
#12732 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

Not meaning to kick up any (further) shit, but where did the parts come from that you were using to build your own game? Did they come from a third party as well, or directly from Kevin? Or did you mean that you are building a non-Predator game?
(And I can certainly appreciate you providing details on how you came about owning a Predator, whether I agree with your decision(s) or not.)

I'm only doing a re-theme of a JD (Breaking Bad). Another P-ROC project.

Quoted from flynnibus:

I love how accounts go from "why do you all claim dupe accounts", you all are attacking me..."no really in a new user". to being lured into admitting who they are... then they act like they never lied at all about it.
Complete and utter liars who have no credibility ever

Ahhh Flynn. Please use the site's quote function to show me which post(s) you're referring to. The "witch hunt" occurs dozen of times on here and yes, I did say I found it funny because it happens every time someone raises a good point that makes you feel butt hurt. Instead of focusing on the point or argument folks just attack the person. Case in point.

#12733 2 years ago
Quoted from Russell:

I really wish it could end up in a pinball museum somewhere. NOT that place in Vegas. Maybe PAPA, or the place in Banning, CA. Perhaps Lyons Classic Pinball in Colorado?
Perhaps Roger Sharpe could ask Fox if they'd allow one game to be kept for the sake of pinball history.

While I like the idea to allow the game to be made available like that and preserved for the sake of pinball history, there would be a risk of it being vandalized or stolen by people who are rather upset with the whole situation.

#12734 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Who could I possibly be that would make what I just posted any less true? It's like Groundhog's Day around here. Can't attack the argument, let's attack the person.

Ahem

-3
#12735 2 years ago

I think you're only re-enforcing my point Jawhawk. It really didn't matter who I was, the post(s) I made were no less true (or in some cases just another opinion.)

Anyway, there are several curious things in the motions filed and I can only assume Keith filed them the way he did because he could not (yet) get Kevin to come back and clarify some earlier statements. So he went with what Kevin testified to originally?

#12736 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

If you are a person that has a Predator, and you come face to face with a friend who lost their money on it. What do you say to them?

"Hey have you seen the pics of the new Aerosmith pin!?"

#12737 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

I love how accounts go from "why do you all claim dupe accounts", you all are attacking me..."no really in a new user". to being lured into admitting who they are... then they act like they never lied at all about it.
Complete and utter liars who have no credibility ever

^^^^ This. The reasoning and excuses given in this thread require a psychological case study. As a film fan, it's a shame someone wasn't filming this as documentary at the beginning like when Predator pinball was first announced. It would be fascinating.

Quoted from Brickshot:

A prototype constitutes fair use IMO

Except in this case you didn't really buy a prototype. You bought Predator pinball "rev A." Probably fine, except for the fact that all of the people who put up preorder money for Rev B never received it because Joe Schmo pirate guy didn't have a licensing agreement to create rev A or rev B or any revision. And you don't have any receipts.

-1
#12738 2 years ago

BTW, I think folks should hold their opinions on Paul and VirtuaPin too. That 108k figure may have come at least partially from Kevin himself (not bank records.) Given what was said under oath about me having a game on loan, I'll wait to hear the evidence in court that Paul actually got that much money. He deserves his day in court.

#12739 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

If you are a person that has a Predator, and you come face to face with a friend who lost their money on it. What do you say to them?

Don't pre-order order machines

12
#12740 2 years ago

You do something clearly morally wrong, and brag about it here... A real piece of work. (edited)

#12741 2 years ago

ANYONE that believes a single line of what Tim Fife is selling... has not read the depositions.

Amazed that some of you are taking it from him on faith. The guy is every bit as culpable as the rest of the crew and has been the exact opposite of cooperative thus far. His life will continue to be made more stressful unless he decides to take a different trajectory (would be very unexpected based on how he has been so far).

-3
#12742 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

ANYONE that believes a single line of what Tim Fife is selling... has not read the depositions.
Amazed that some of you are taking it from him on faith. The guy is every bit as culpable as the rest of the crew and has been the exact opposite of cooperative thus far. His life will continue to be made more stressful unless he decides to take a different trajectory (would be very unexpected based on how he has been so far).

WTF are you talking? Have YOU read the deposition? What exactly do you think I said that is one iota different from what I said above? name ONE thing.

You are seriously begging for a defamation suit.

#12743 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

ANYONE that believes a single line of what Tim Fife is selling... has not read the depositions.
Amazed that some of you are taking it from him on faith. The guy is every bit as culpable as the rest of the crew and has been the exact opposite of cooperative thus far. His life will continue to be made more stressful unless he decides to take a different trajectory (would be very unexpected based on how he has been so far).

I'd like to read those so I can be informed.

#12744 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

WTF are you talking? Have YOU read the deposition? What exactly do you think I said that is one iota different from what I said above? name ONE thing.

sorry, I cant talk details about ongoing legal matters, but I am very familiar with all aspect of the ongoing cases.

I am curious if you are going to voluntarily turn over the Predator machine once ordered. It would probably be beneficial for you in the long run.

Other question, Why have mods let you continue to be on Pinside? Is this your 5th dup account now? i honestly have lost track.

23
#12745 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

You are seriously begging for a defamation suit.

You have no character left to defame. You're despicable.

11
#12746 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

WTF are you talking? Have YOU read the deposition? What exactly do you think I said that is one iota different from what I said above? name ONE thing.
You are seriously begging for a defamation suit.

So now you admit that you are Tim? Isn't this the third time now that you have pulled this bait and switch s$%t?

What do you really hope to gain? I hope the group pursuing this suite doesn't give up until the end.

#12747 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

I suspect this is why Kevin did not show up in November and again in December (it may have conflicted with his saying under oath that he "loaned" the game.) Never happened.

In Doc 37, it states that the Defendant (presumably Tim Fife) testified that the Predator in question is the property of the Debtor (presumably Kevin). Care to comment?

9 (resized).png

10
#12748 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Other question, Why have mods let you continue to be on Pinside? Is this your 5th dup account now? i honestly have lost track.

Im inclined to let him stay for the time being. I don't speak for the whole mod team obviously (and Robin may feel different when he wakes up), but as far as I'm (personally) concerned Tim can keep posting if he wants to.

I'd like to hear more details about any conversations he's ever had with Kevin or anything else he would like to tell us. I'd like to hear more about these other machines being made. I'd like to hear more what Kevin's up to. Any facts Tim wants to share, I'm all ears.

What I'd really like to hear more about is what Kevin told Tim about processing refunds. Tims last account said Kevin told him he processed a bunch of refunds, we know that's not true but I'd like more details about what Kevin claimed.

#12749 2 years ago
Quoted from SirScott:

In Doc 37, it states that the Defendant (presumably Tim Fife) testified that the Predator in question is the property of the Debtor (presumably Kevin). Care to comment?

That's poorly worded and frankly, sloppy work from the lawyer.

That claim implies that it is factual that the machines are property of the Debtor..... That hasn't been shown, from what I read. He didn't produce a receipt, but as it's been mentioned...that's not a confirmation of compensation or not.

-5
#12750 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I am curious if you are going to voluntarily turn over the Predator machine once ordered. It would probably be beneficial for you in the long run.

Quoted from RobT:

Wouldn't you be better off just turning over the machine and moving on?

Quoted from Brickshot:

Surrender the 10k spent? Ooof. I have to let the courts decide this one.

Quoted from Whysnow:

Why have mods let you continue to be on Pinside? Is this your 5th dup account now? i honestly have lost track.

It's probably a couple more to be honest. But I've never had a "dup" account per se, really just only one active account at a time. So I prefer the term subsequent account please. Thanks buddy! Good night.

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