(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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There are 18272 posts in this topic. You are on page 254 of 366.
#12651 2 years ago
Quoted from shakenbake:

VPcabs(Vertigo creator) is in no way associated with Virtuapin.

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

#12652 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

He didn't try to reclaim them as IP violations, but as assets to be redistributed to creditors. And since they are one-offs and prototypes being liquidated instead of sold... I'm not sure if that changes things

Infringing is infringing regardless whether it's a one-off. INTENT is the key here - fair use provision in copyright law allows people to infringe for (generally) personal, non-commercial use. There are other allowances, but that is the one that applies here. Predator was built to be sold, for profit (although it was priced too cheaply to be profitable). Selling a game with Predator IP and no license is illegal under copyright law, period. The homebrew games we do see getting sold here and there fly well under the radar simply because there's only one or two of any particular title, and the sales are private. Predator was a completely different ballgame - high volume and public sales.

Quoted from Whysnow:

could he be found in contempt if ordered and refuses to comply?

Absolutely. Ignoring a judge == contempt in all but the rarest cases. Court orders are just that, orders.. not requests.

Quoted from sevenrites:

Maybe they could just part the machine(s) out so there's no completed one, but they could still auction off pieces of it that way money can still be raised to cover some restitution and legal fees.

Yep, this is what Keith is aiming at. Strip off the Pred IP and you still have a functioning game that has some value.

Quoted from shakenbake:

VPcabs(Vertigo creator) is in no way associated with Virtuapin.

Yea, VPCabs is down here in Cincinnati and was one of virtuapin's competitors. Great folks and a great business.. their work with Zen Pinball has drastically improved those simulations over the last couple years.

#12653 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Tim is a damn fool and I hope he gets a judgment against him. He seriously thought he could buy one of the prototypes "under the table" yet he brags about it after the fact. Not an intelligent man. This is also clear when you read his inconsistent testimony linked above.

agree.
he paid for it, no doubt about it.. and how anyone can have this pin in their home its beyond me.

horsesh1t its on "loan"

#12654 2 years ago

Seems like a lot of interesting details have emerged here lately, the tide seems to be turning against Kevin and gang finally. It's a long process no doubt, but very satisfactory to see it all starting to unravel on him and his cohorts.

#12655 2 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

people can post anonymously, and some folks might have a legit reason to not want to share their name, but it certainly makes many of us think those who choose to be quite vocal and at the same time hide behind their screen name, have something of substance to hide.

Personally, I think one of the most intriguing elements of being on Pinside is seeing where people are from. I like to know when I'm talking with someone in another country or just miles away. Half the fun for me is seeing what people have to say all over the world. I wish everyone would list at least what state/country they live in.

Mike in Kentucky (And that's my real name . . . well . . . the Mike part! Ha.)

#12656 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

So if they divorced they are still brother & sister?

110202-white-stripes-new-414x308 (resized).png

11
#12657 2 years ago

I find it funny people are condemning others on how they spend their money on this site. MANY pinsiders have the equivalent of some peoples yearly income tied up on amusement devices in their basement...

If they want to spend two or three times what they invested into Kevin only to get nothing but a sense of satisfaction, that's their priority.

#12658 2 years ago
Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Tim is a damn fool and I hope he gets a judgment against him. He seriously thought he could buy one of the prototypes "under the table" yet he brags about it after the fact. Not an intelligent man. This is also clear when you read his inconsistent testimony linked above.

For the life of me I can figure out why anyone would want one at this point. The game is so tainted with ill feelings from everyone that it seems like it would just be more of a burden then anything. Am I right or wrong?

John

#12659 2 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

For the life of me I can figure out why anyone would want one at this point.

Why not...they wanted one at the time when they played it and it sucked.

#12660 2 years ago
Quoted from Pintucky:

Personally, I think one of the most intriguing elements of being on Pinside is seeing where people are from. I like to know when I'm talking with someone in another country or just miles away. Half the fun for me is seeing what people have to say all over the world. I wish everyone would list at least what state/country they live in.
Mike in Kentucky (And that's my real name . . . well . . . the Mike part! Ha.)

O'my gosh...someone that actually thinks like I do? No way!! I think it should be required to have a location listed. I think signing there real name should be a requirement too, but one thing at a time.
People are soooo...paranoid there going to get robbed or something. Ugh!!

John

#12661 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Why not...they wanted one at the time when they played it and it sucked.

Very true. But now the game is not liked for many other reasons and I can't imagine it would be worth having it in any size collection.

John

#12662 2 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

Very true. But now the game is not liked for many other reasons and I can't imagine it would be worth having it in any size collection.
John

Why do people here flock to buy LEs when they are exactly the same but cost more? Because they think they're special, what could be more special than this hunk of shit?

#12663 2 years ago
Quoted from vdojaq:

So if they divorced they are still brother & sister?

No Way!?! Don't even begin to tell me this is true. Brother and sister ??

John

#12664 2 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

No Way!?! Don't even begin to tell me this is true. Brother and sister ??
John

I believe that was just a joke (I hope so anyway...).

#12665 2 years ago

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.....

#12666 2 years ago
Quoted from Dayhuff:

For the life of me I can figure out why anyone would want one at this point. The game is so tainted with ill feelings from everyone that it seems like it would just be more of a burden then anything. Am I right or wrong?
John

I agree with you completely. Tim Fife, however, probably does not care about the burden or at least didn't care about the burden before. I think he's shakin in his boots now though.

#12667 2 years ago

I know these are the only "Kevin Built" games asked to be returned to the estate. But when it comes to cabinets and parts is Clay going to have to give back what he has or does he have a receipt? Anything magically appearing in the future sounds like it could be a liability until the debt is paid.

14
#12668 2 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

I know these are the only "Kevin Built" games asked to be returned to the estate. But when it comes to cabinets and parts is Clay going to have to give back what he has or does he have a receipt? Anything magically appearing in the future sounds like it could be a liability until the debt is paid.

I personally would hope all of that is fair game for the courts. It's not fair to the people who suffered and lost money for someone to jump in and be able to get a game out of it, even if they do assemble it themselves. The parts came from somewhere, the development time was paid for by pre-orders.

Personally, my conscience wouldn't allow me to have any Predator parts or games. I couldn't do that to people I call friends. Some people may not care about that as much and only seek to be selfish and have a game.

It would be different if the predator buyers recovered a game and then all decided to donate it to a pinball museum or something. But it has to be a choice by the people that were hurt.

#12669 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I personally would hope all of that is fair game for the courts. It's not fair to the people who suffered and lost money for someone to jump in and be able to get a game out of it, even if they do assemble it themselves. The parts came from somewhere, the development time was paid for by pre-orders.
Personally, my conscience wouldn't allow me to have any Predator parts or games. I couldn't do that to people I call friends. Some people may not care about that as much and only seek to be selfish and have a game.
It would be different if the predator buyers recovered a game and then all decided to donate it to a pinball museum or something. But it has to be a choice by the people that were hurt.

Agreed 100%. You've got a group of people who are owed a pound of flesh for all of this, and they haven't been made whole yet. Someone coming in and trying to procure a prototype because it's exclusive after all of that is weak sauce.

#12670 2 years ago

I wonder if Kevin's neighbors know he is a thief and has a ton of cash hidden inside his house?

#12671 2 years ago
Quoted from jasonp:

I wonder if Kevin's neighbors know he is a thief and has a ton of cash hidden inside his house?

I just wonder where it is as i'd venture to say it is not in the house. In the event the Treasury Department takes the place over and seals it up, the money would be gone. He's a lot smarter than that.

#12672 2 years ago

Sounds like it's all down at virtual cabinets

#12673 2 years ago

It would suck for Mr Kulek if word got out in his area about all that cash hidden in his house.

12
#12674 2 years ago

I actually don't think he has a pile of cash. I think he is broke.

Part of the reason all of this failed is Kevin's lack of business acumen. He suddenly had access to more money than he had ever, or would ever, see in his lifetime.

It's long been spent on dumb shit, little by little.

#12675 2 years ago
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:

I actually don't think he has a pile of cash. I think he is broke.
Part of the reason all of this failed is Kevin's lack of business acumen. He suddenly had access to more money than he had ever, or would ever, see in his lifetime.
It's long been spent on dumb shit, little by little.

...the downfall of many people who are handed a pile of money without having earned or grown it over time. They've no idea what they're doing and lack self control and discipline.

Perhaps the money is buried under a Big W? Or under a black, volcanic rock that has no early business being in a Michigan hayfield?

#12676 2 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Sounds like it's all down at virtual cabinets

Yeah, that is a huge chunk. It may have already been posted but does anyone remember or know off hand about how much money total he collected from people towards this game?

#12677 2 years ago

Where's the money hidden?

You think he wears that ratty ass beanie hat as a fashion statement?

#12680 2 years ago

I always loved "It's a Mad Mad mad mad World". So much talent in one great package.

#12681 2 years ago

http://www.pinconningcheese.com

Drove through last summer, they know what they are doing.

#12682 2 years ago

I can think of cheese anymore without this

#12683 2 years ago
Quoted from Taxman:

I always loved "It's a Mad Mad mad mad World". So much talent in one great package

Where you going Kevin?

#12684 2 years ago

If Storage Wars ever comes to Michigan, we could likely discover where all the money and parts are.

#12685 2 years ago

I wonder if the money was sanitized at the Soaring Eagle Casino-Resort and Saganing Eagle's Nest Casino.

All to help the impoverished Saginaw Chippewa Tribe on the Isabella and Arenac County Saginaw Reservations.

#12686 2 years ago
Quoted from MrBally:

I wonder if the money was sanitized at the Soaring Eagle Casino-Resort and Saganing Eagle's Nest Casino.
All to help the impoverished Saginaw Chippewa Tribe on the Isabella and Arenac County Saginaw Reservations.

always looking for a reason to write out Chippewa in a post...

#12687 2 years ago

I guarantee he spent some money on really cool beanie hats.

1da07e01e0fe6515990302645c72d536 (resized).jpg

#12688 2 years ago

For those people saying the games couldn't be sold because there is no license, I'm not so sure that applies...

In the video game world, if the company making a game goes belly up before the game is complete. In liquidation from bankruptcy, the prototypes are sold, without the license to distribute. From my understanding, so long as the person buying doesn't assume the right to distribute additional copies of the games, it's fine.

If there is no chance of selling the assets, why claim them? They must have a value.

#12689 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

In the video game world, if the company making a game goes belly up before the game is complete. In liquidation from bankruptcy, the prototypes are sold, without the license to distribute. From my understanding, so long as the person buying doesn't assume the right to distribute additional copies of the games, it's fine.

This goes way beyond my area of expertise so I have no opinion but question: are those for licensed games? I couldn't imagine the Batman IP people (for example) allowing an incomplete prototype using their IP to be sold if they could stop it.

#12690 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

For those people saying the games couldn't be sold because there is no license, I'm not so sure that applies... In the video game world, if the company making a game goes belly up before the game is complete. In liquidation from bankruptcy, the prototypes are sold, without the license to distribute. From my understanding, so long as the person buying doesn't assume the right to distribute additional copies of the games, it's fine. If there is no chance of selling the assets, why claim them? They must have a value.

Interesting. I would have thought that generally counterfeit/unlicensed goods would have to be destroyed rather than sold to benefit the estate. The image of a US Marshall overseeing auction of a warehouse full of fake Gucci purses and "Nikee" shoes seems off somehow. But maybe if Fox doesn't actively complain about injury to their brand -- seems unlikely they would waste any more time/money on this dumpster fire -- then the court just carries on and auctions off the proto-Predators?

You also make a good point that the court would presumably only be interested in pursuing assets if they are likely to generate money for the estate.

#12691 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

For those people saying the games couldn't be sold because there is no license, I'm not so sure that applies...
In the video game world, if the company making a game goes belly up before the game is complete. In liquidation from bankruptcy, the prototypes are sold, without the license to distribute. From my understanding, so long as the person buying doesn't assume the right to distribute additional copies of the games, it's fine.
If there is no chance of selling the assets, why claim them? They must have a value.

No, it wouldn't work.

You have to keep Fox in mind. Predator IP belongs to them, and them alone. Nothing can happen from these proceedings that would result in Fox taking any kind of loss. They never asked for this mess, and they never agreed to anything involving it. Anything Predator-related on those games is technically stolen property. A sale of *anything* involving Fox IP that Fox does not get compensated for is a loss for Fox. I'm sure there's some fancy legal term for it, but basically, you can't have an agreement/argument between two parties (kevin and buyers) that results in a loss for a completely non-affiliated third party (Fox). If you *could* you can be sure unscrupulous people would already be exploiting such a loophole.

Only thing I can think of would be the judge ordering the games sold as part of the BK liquidation with a compulsory license payment paid to Fox, but I don't know if there are laws providing for that. Most likely is that Fox is given the games as illegal contraband. Keith can fight for them.. will be interesting to see the results.

In your videogame example, the game studio has presumably entered into an agreement with the owner of the IP they're making the game with, and such an agreement would cover what happens if the studio goes titsup before the game's done. In kevin's case, Fox has no agreement with anyone, and didn't even know the games were being made til they were tipped off years after it started. It is in Fox's best interests to discourage piracy of their IP, and going soft on Kevin would only encourage more stupid behavior from other stupid people.

-7
#12692 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

This goes way beyond my area of expertise so I have no opinion but question: are those for licensed games? I couldn't imagine the Batman IP people (for example) allowing an incomplete prototype using their IP to be sold if they could stop it.

Building a prototype which is never intended to itself be sold for profit sure seems to fall under "fair use". I think you'll find this same point over and over when googling:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10000872396390444327204577617631823732616

"If you do use a copyrighted image, are you immediately in trouble? Daniel J. Brooks, a partner in the New York office of law firm Schnader Harrison Seagal & Lewis LLP, says the primary question in determining intellectual-property infringement is why a work was used. Using a copyrighted image for the purpose of parody, criticism or explanatory or educational purposes, for instance, could be protected by fair use."

But admittedly I'm no lawyer.

#12693 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

But admittedly I'm no lawyer.

I don't know enough about this area to comment intelligently. I do know fair use is pretty narrowly construed and given Kevin was taking money from people he's the last person that I would think could make a fair use argument with a straight face.

Also, Kevin actually sold the prototype...not sure how he can say he never intended for it to be sold when he actually did sell it. Again, I would like a specialist to opine.

Selling it for a "profit" doesn't matter. You can't infringe and just sell for a loss and be okay...

#12694 2 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

No, it wouldn't work.
You have to keep Fox in mind. Predator IP belongs to them, and them alone. Nothing can happen from these proceedings that would result in Fox taking any kind of loss. They never asked for this mess, and they never agreed to anything involving it. Anything Predator-related on those games is technically stolen property. A sale of *anything* involving Fox IP that Fox does not get compensated for is a loss for Fox. I'm sure there's some fancy legal term for it, but basically, you can't have an agreement/argument between two parties (kevin and buyers) that results in a loss for a completely non-affiliated third party (Fox). If you *could* you can be sure unscrupulous people would already be exploiting such a loophole.
Only thing I can think of would be the judge ordering the games sold as part of the BK liquidation with a compulsory license payment paid to Fox, but I don't know if there are laws providing for that. Most likely is that Fox is given the games as illegal contraband. Keith can fight for them.. will be interesting to see the results.
In your videogame example, the game studio has presumably entered into an agreement with the owner of the IP they're making the game with, and such an agreement would cover what happens if the studio goes titsup before the game's done. In kevin's case, Fox has no agreement with anyone, and didn't even know the games were being made til they were tipped off years after it started. It is in Fox's best interests to discourage piracy of their IP, and going soft on Kevin would only encourage more stupid behavior from other stupid people.

The license would only apply to a manufactured available item. This being either sold or distributed, including given away free of cost. A prototype(s) would be fair use as personal property up until moved to another party.

I could build a predator pinball right now, even a few, as long as I didn't sell or distribute them. They would be actionable assets if the bank came knocking for personal debt liabilities. Since bung hole that has the machines can't produce a receipt for the items, they are still considered personal property of Kevin.

i.e. They were never transferred legally, and did not violate IP.

#12695 2 years ago
Quoted from Firebaall:

I could build a predator pinball right now, even a few, as long as I didn't sell or distribute them. They would be actionable assets if the bank came knocking for personal debt liabilities. Since bung hole that has the machines can't produce a receipt for the items, they are still considered personal property of Kevin.
i.e. They were never transferred legally, and did not violate IP.

I know different states have different rules but here in Louisiana a receipt is not necessary to evidence a sale (titled items like cars, guns or trailers are a bit different). You can have a sale and it be perfected without a receipt here in Louisiana.

#12696 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

I know different states have different rules but here in Louisiana a receipt is not necessary to evidence a sale (titled items like cars, guns or trailers are a bit different). You can have a sale and it be perfected without a receipt here in Louisiana.

Like most places, I believe. I think the general idea is that he could not produce any reason for a legal transfer that would have explained his possession beyond hiding assets for Kevin.

#12697 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Also, Kevin actually sold the prototype...not sure how he can say he never intended for it to be sold when he actually did sell it. Again, I would like a specialist to opine.
Selling it for a "profit" doesn't matter. You can't infringe and just sell for a loss and be okay...

This probably doesn't matter (I'm not sure) but technically it was traded for some arcade games deemed equal value at the time I believe. THEN a while later cash was paid for Predator by the current "defendant" in document 37. The "defendant" never dealt with or even saw Kevin. Not sure why document 37 does not make that more clear but it was testified to under oath by both individuals. Probably won't change anyone's feelings or opinions but just for clarification sake.

Oh, and the values noted in document 37 are the values paid for by the defendant. Not some random value that was assigned. I'm not sure what value was put on the game when it was originally traded for arcade games but likely much less. Another problem with document 37.

#12698 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Using a copyrighted image for the purpose of parody, criticism or explanatory or educational purposes

Ahem

#12699 2 years ago

You really think Fox gives a shit? Lol, what a joke. It would cost more money to fly their lawyers out to Michigan than what they would recover from a grown man dressed in pirate suit from Pinconning MI. You ever been through Pinconning? Only thing there is a good cheese shop.

15
#12700 2 years ago
Quoted from Brickshot:

Yes, this is my single active account. I'll go back to just reading.

Quoted from Brickshot:

Go back to focusing on Kevin. I'll drain it.

Sure you will.

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