(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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12
#11051 3 years ago
Quoted from Razorbak86:
Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.

This post has a bit of a backstory.

It came at a time when we were FINALLY ready to start producing cabinets. Kevin was showing a growing concern for the project, as people were getting restless. I contacted him and asked if he'd like me to post some pics and show people progress. He asked me to hold off until some licensing issues were addressed. Of course, I asked him again about the license, and he declared everything was fine.

After another week or two, I asked him again, and he said something along the lines of, 'Go for it, everything is good with the license.'

So, I did, and I don't think there's a single regret in my six years in business larger than posting that. He threw me right under the bus. I suspect he knew full well what he was doing, but he was hoping to somehow salvage the project. Maybe his hope was to do it under the radar. I don't know. Only Kevin can answer that question for us.

I have to say, unfortunately, I trusted Kevin. We traveled a lot of road together introducing him to people and going to Expo. He shared his dad's story and many personal stories with me. I believed in the guy. I really did.

Needless to say, I'm tired of 'taking the rap' for him here.

#11052 3 years ago

96% of all new businesses fail within the first 3 years.

Why would pinball be any different?

#11053 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

would a judge (or bankruptcy court?) ever force them to sell their modest home or force them to sell their only source of income (the photography biz)? Especially since they have a child? And how do you prove they never had a dime in savings prior to taking money for Predator?

Clearly you've never seen lawsuits where people get sued and the courts take EVERYTHING they have. Unlike JPOP who had a small piece of a brain cell and filed himself as a real company, I don't see anywhere that Skit-b was filed even as an LLC, which means people should be able to go after assets, even if it wasn't part of the company.

Quoted from HappyDayz:

would it not be a challenge to prove he never deserved to take a salary for himself like JPop did?

Why don't you ask Charlie Emery or KT how much salary they've pulled in the last 3 years while they built up their company? They just barely paid the bills, and even some of their workers took unpaid labor until they took off. Nobody feels bad for Kevin.

#11054 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

It is NOT the job of show organizers to "vet" their attendees. Just want to make that clear. Anyone can buy a table or booth at a show; their presence is not any kind of endorsement from the show organizers. Assuming someone is "legit" because they've been to a few shows is just being silly and lazy.

Hey, he fooled a lot of people. Including at least one lawyer. Guess he was a smooth talker. I will say he never convinced me he was legit, but it was irrelevant because I had no interest in the theme or the game anyway.

I think people are just ASSuming y'all got more from Kevin's deposit than you delivered back to him in cabs, and they want a piece of the difference. If you spent more money than you received in deposit, Kevin owes you like he does everyone else.

I was unable to reply to this yesterday, but here's my thought ...

If you're a show organizer, and you put images of, in this case, Predator pinball on your programs and USE IT AS A DRAW to your show, you damn well better vet it. I know of at least two shows that paid for freight to get it to their shows and paid Kevin's expenses. Sounds more legit when you think of it like that, doesn't it? That's how I saw it.

#11055 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

At $4750, not everyone would have gotten their pin. You'd end up in a situation like this: http://mashable.com/2016/04/16/coolest-cooler-money/#an.hAPCU38qA
At least with JPOP there's some transparency. We can see all the prototypes, fancy hinges, rent, patent applications and generous salary and say "yeah, that's where all the money went". John wasted it PROPERLY (sad as that is to say).
Kevin got maybe 10 games worth of parts, tops. (which you know he'll build and sell under the table)
What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

That's a damn good question.

I have tried running the numbers in my head, and I can't imagine he spent it all. I do know of other purchases that made me shake my head, especially when there was at least one guy who worked for Skit-B that quit his job and burned numerous professional bridges to be a part of the project on 'promises'.

I can say the artists who did Predator and EOD were paid in full, and I told Kevin it was a mistake. They should only get paid as machines shipped, but to no avail.

#11056 3 years ago
Quoted from toyotaboy:

Clearly you've never seen lawsuits where people get sued and the courts take EVERYTHING they have.

Michigan's homestead exemption for bankruptcy is like $39,000.

So if Kevin's principal residence equity is under $40K, the court probably won't liquidate the home.

Somewhere in this thread, someone looked up his residence and it said his wife recently bough the home for $29K

#11057 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

I will never understand this "taking a salary" BS.
People who were screwed by Kevin and JPop paid their money to buy a pinball machine. After Kevin/JPop take the money, their responsibility is to deliver a pinball machine as described, whether they make a dime or lose a dime.
Did these crooks ever tell their customers that they were funding a startup and there is a chance all of their cash will do nothing more than finance a photography business or purchase an Infiniti SUV?

You forgot a ridiculously over-sized trailer to haul his new motorcycle, four wheelers, other ATVs he bought for himself and the kids, including all new riding suits for the kids. It was posted on his Facebook back when he bought all that shit. Another headshaker, as the aforementioned 'free employee' was telling me he was losing his HOUSE, because he made the choice to quit his profession for Skit-B. He shit himself when I showed him all that stuff Kevin bought.

#11058 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Michigan's homestead exemption for bankruptcy is like $39,000.
So if Kevin's principal residence equity is under $40K, the court probably won't liquidate the home.
Somewhere in this thread, someone looked up his residence and it said his wife recently bough the home for $29K

I was told $24K, so with closing costs and other fees, that's about right.

#11059 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Michigan's homestead exemption for bankruptcy is like $39,000.

So if Kevin's principal residence equity is under $40K, the court probably won't liquidate the home.

Somewhere in this thread, someone looked up his residence and it said his wife recently bough the home for $29K

that's messed up.. it's actually $37,775 in state of Michigan. If he chooses to file under the federal bankruptcy, it's only $22,975
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/michigan-bankruptcy-homestead-exemption.html

#11060 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

made the choice to quit his profession for Skit-B

Wow. Part of me has feels for that but part of me thinks that sounds like an extremely poorly thought out decision to quit a "profession" for a longshot pinball project that he would likely, at least at first, have known wasn't legit. Hopefully he went back, that is, somewhere where he didn't burn bridges

#11061 3 years ago

So They are allowed to take a salary to comit fraud and theft?

#11062 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Wow. Part of me has feels for that but part of me thinks that sounds like an extremely poorly thought out decision to quit a "profession" for a longshot pinball project that he would likely, at least at first, have known wasn't legit. Hopefully he went back, that is, somewhere where he didn't burn bridges

He was a contractor who burned his referral bridge. Ouch!

I believe it was you who said Kevin must be one hell of a story teller? It's true. It's damn true.

-6
#11063 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekie:

So They are allowed to take a salary to comit fraud and theft?

Proving the whole "fraud" part is the tricky part. Even if Kevin knew he had serious license issues at some point was he legally obligated to stop taking funds in (I know ethically he should have stopped) or can he simply argue he was continuing to find resolution and believed it be worked out? I'm not sure he was legally obligated to disclose that or not? Jpop had to know he was certainly insolvent at some point but he just kept introducing new game after new game to take in more funds (all while continuing to pay himself). You would think in this day and age with so many new startups using avenues like "go fund me" that there would be more legislation around what owners could pay themselves using those funds.

Hearing about all the extra toys Kevin bought (trailer, ATV's, etc) is disturbing. But perhaps tracking those things down and making sure they were not in fact sold (for lawyer fees or something) could potentially raise some funds for victims if they exist.

#11064 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.

sorry my friend,

Marco, Riester, and others, never came on Pinside, to quell the fire that was starting to burn.

Speculation needed to be pursued. By the time it was, it was too late.

update: Just got to the final page, and read the most recent posts from Noah.
Sorry you got stiffed in all this, but consider, the other suppliers were not endorcing. best of luck to you, and yours'.

#11065 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

According to her FaceBook page she is hiring an "office girl."
Maybe someone here can make a recommendation or apply for the position.

We should send LadySlingshot. Wasn't she running the marketing campaign for JPOP already? You know, before kaneda embraced his true self, undergoing transgenderification.

#11066 3 years ago

Hi Scott!

The statement was "VirtuaPin used to seem "legit" to me too until I found out you went ahead and took money for a project you didn't know was above board or not."

Nothing to do with endorsements, only that we took money for the project. We certainly weren't the only ones to do that.

I realize it was a mistake, but that is indeed the power of hindsight. I regret it every day. I'm going to be a MUCH tougher sell in the future on projects like these.

#11067 3 years ago

I think people are forgetting that the underlying principal to our economy is trust.

We have laws in place. It's illegal to defraud someone. It's illegal to write bad checks. It's illegal to sell unlicensed products.

There is a certain level of trust through out this economy. If it wasn't there, this economy would be so bogged down with people doing background checks on one another, that no one would have time to actually participate in the economy.

#11068 3 years ago

The pitchforks shouldn't really be pointed at Paul. He has repeatedly and consistently said he believed Kevin and that it was the biggest mistake he's made. He was lied to just as the rest of us. Sure, he got paid to do the cabinets he did so didn't lose as much money, but lots of people got refunds from their credit cards where I didn't get a penny back. Do we blame them, too?
After all the reading and fact findings, and as someone who is out over $5K now with attorney fees, Paul isn't even a blip on my radar of blame. Kevin is ground zero.

#11069 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

if Kevin knew he had serious license issues at some point

HaHaHaHaHaHaHa...................
gasp....
HaHaHaHaHaHa........................

#11070 3 years ago
Quoted from dgoett:

The pitchforks shouldn't really be pointed at Paul. He has repeatedly and consistently said he believed Kevin and that it was the biggest mistake he's made. He was lied to just as the rest of us. Sure, he got paid to do the cabinets he did so didn't lose as much money, but lots of people got refunds from their credit cards where I didn't get a penny back. Do we blame them, too?
After all the reading and fact findings, and as someone who is out over $5K now with attorney fees, Paul isn't even a blip on my radar of blame. Kevin is ground zero.

If people think about it, where do you usually see unlicensed products? Walking out of a sports game or concert. Outside of that, what kind of marginally sane person would try to design an unlicensed pinball machine?

#11071 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

If you're a show organizer, and you put images of, in this case, Predator pinball on your programs and USE IT AS A DRAW to your show, you damn well better vet it. I know of at least two shows that paid for freight to get it to their shows and paid Kevin's expenses. Sounds more legit when you think of it like that, doesn't it? That's how I saw it.

You *built cabinets* for this clown, and thought he was legit. You expect a show promoter to do MORE homework and vetting than a supplier? Doesn't work that way. Shows always flog whomever and whatever is going to be there, and show promoters are not IP lawyers and should not be treated as such. I've seen Pacak prep for Expo, and the thought of him spending time calling various rights-holders to ensure all products mentioned are legit, is simply ridiculous.

I'm not blaming you for doing business with Kevin, but trying to slough off blame on show promoters is just wrong. You had MUCH more direct involvement with them than did any show, and you completely fell for their song and dance. Hell, maybe the show guys thought Kevin was legit because Virtuapin was doing work for them...

#11072 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

You *built cabinets* for this clown, and thought he was legit. You expect a show promoter to do MORE homework and vetting than a supplier? Doesn't work that way. Shows always flog whomever and whatever is going to be there, and show promoters are not IP lawyers and should not be treated as such. I've seen Pacak prep for Expo, and the thought of him spending time calling various rights-holders to ensure all products mentioned are legit, is simply ridiculous.
I'm not blaming you for doing business with Kevin, but trying to slough off blame on show promoters is just wrong. You had MUCH more direct involvement with them than did any show, and you completely fell for their song and dance. Hell, maybe the show guys thought Kevin was legit because Virtuapin was doing work for them...

Um ... I think I've been more than forthcoming, and I have also accepted the responsibility for believing Kevin. No 'sloughing' here.

That being said, if you're going to USE A PROJECT AS A DRAW TO YOUR SHOW, you should at least make sure it's legit. No blame at all on show organizers. Trying to express how it only serves to lend credibility to his story.

#11073 3 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

If people think about it, where do you usually see unlicensed products?

I never have to go very far....

star_ship_(resized).jpg

eight_ball_(resized).jpg

#11074 3 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

they say that all will be revealed in due time, but with ongoing litigation it is wise to not speak of many things in public at this juncture. you will just have to trust that discovery has been eye opening for many.

I hope that's true and not just lawyer-speak form the guy you're paying

Good idea, take away all the money they have to pay everyone back!

#11075 3 years ago
Quoted from metallik:

I've seen Pacak prep for Expo, and the thought of him spending time calling various rights-holders to ensure all products mentioned are legit, is simply ridiculous..

Too funny.....

#11076 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

Good idea, take away all the money they have to pay everyone back!

They have no intention of paying anyone back based on their actions thus far...I can say with confidence whatever comes from that business is not going into a piggy bank that they plan to use to make us whole.

#11077 3 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

They have no intention of paying anyone back based on their actions thus far...I can say with confidence whatever comes from that business is not going into a piggy bank that they plan to use to make us whole.

Obviously, You missed my point, it could go into their joint account that they are made to pay you back by the court. That's juts a guess, I'm not a litigator either

12
#11078 3 years ago

Okay, let's get this back on topic, if we can. I hear a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks here.
What are you doing about it?????

This is for those that are out money and who want to fight this bankruptcy declaration.

Contact Keith and let's try to get him to file and Adversary Proceeding on behalf of several people that are owed money. It is a slam dunk that this can be declared a non-dischargeable debt. But we have to sue in order to even have a chance of recovery. That non-dischargeable debt will hound him forever if we sue. Now, that means more expense, but if we do it collectively it won't hurt too bad.

Individually, the expense of an adversary proceeding is cost prohibitive. We must file collectively as a group of creditors and share the cost.

PM me if you are in. I will introduce you to Keith and try to work up an arrangement.

There is a very narrow window of opportunity to respond. So, it's time for action, or just keep bitching on this forum.

Serious PMs only.
Thanks.

#11079 3 years ago

File in the correct court this time also, might speed things up

#11080 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Contact Keith and let's try to get him to file and Adversary Proceeding on behalf of several people that are owed money. It is a slam dunk that this can be declared a non-dischargeable debt. But we have to sue in order to even have a chance of recovery. That non-dischargeable debt will hound him forever if we sue. Now, that means more expense, but if we do it collectively it won't hurt too bad.
Individually, the expense of an adversary proceeding is cost prohibitive. We must file collectively as a group of creditors and share the cost.
PM me if you are in. I will introduce you to Keith and try to work up an arrangement.
There is a very narrow window of opportunity to respond. So, it's time for action, or just keep bitching on this forum.
Serious PMs only.
Thanks.

Does this mean there is currently no more pending litigation unless you file for this adversary proceeding? Or are you just suggesting another parallel path to go for reimbursement?

#11081 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Does this mean there is currently no more pending litigation unless you file for this adversary proceeding? Or are you just suggesting another parallel path to go for reimbursement?

There is no other way to recover your money. If you don't file an adversary proceeding then you are accepting his bankruptcy and he walks away. The criminal litigation is another matter for those that are involved with it. And an adversary proceeding will be required for them as well.

This litigation is against his bankruptcy declaration. Suing him is required in order to deny him the ability to walk away from his debts by declaring bankruptcy. Through the adversary proceeding it could be easily proven that he committed fraud, which makes the debt non-dischargeable. That would mean the debt hangs on his shoulders forever.

If you don't sue then he walks away from all of his debt obligations.

#11082 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Okay, let's get this back on topic, if we can. I hear a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks here.
What are you doing about it?????
This is for those that are out money and who want to fight this bankruptcy declaration.
Contact Keith and let's try to get him to file and Adversary Proceeding on behalf of several people that are owed money. It is a slam dunk that this can be declared a non-dischargeable debt. But we have to sue in order to even have a chance of recovery. That non-dischargeable debt will hound him forever if we sue. Now, that means more expense, but if we do it collectively it won't hurt too bad.
Individually, the expense of an adversary proceeding is cost prohibitive. We must file collectively as a group of creditors and share the cost.
PM me if you are in. I will introduce you to Keith and try to work up an arrangement.
There is a very narrow window of opportunity to respond. So, it's time for action, or just keep bitching on this forum.
Serious PMs only.
Thanks.

Kinda surprising that keithinmichigan has not thought of this and solicited the idea to his clients already

#11083 3 years ago

What happens if Kevin backs out of the bankruptcy filing? Could it be a ploy to get people to stop litigation without him planning to actually finalize the bankruptcy?

#11084 3 years ago

He's already filed for bankruptcy. That's a done deal. If no one objects to his filing (via adversary proceeding suit) he walks away free!
Read the damn notification you received and do a little googling.

#11085 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

If you don't sue then he walks away from all of his debt obligations.

Oof, what a mess. But doesn't his wife have the same debt obligations as him? Given he had no legal business identity established I don't understand how she isn't just as responsible for the debt as he is? I see that 1 spouse can file for bankruptcy without the other in Michigan but in this case I would think she is just as responsible (since there was no legal business entity the business and all associated debts were owned by both I would think.) So perhaps Keith strategy is to keep pursuing her and that path is easier than the adversary preceding?

http://hillalaw.com/file-bankruptcy-without-your-spouse/

#11086 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

Once the licensing concerns came up, I drilled him for more info. He would tell stories about how Fox was approving the artwork on the playfield, what needed updating, which sound clips and video could be used, etc. I was 100% convinced he was legit, or I never would have gotten involved in the first place!

You were 100% convinced based on what exactly? His words only? Seems extremely naive.

I get the stuff about contractors aren't responsible to vet their clients, but by stating the below you were implying that you'd done exactly that. -THAT- is the problem.

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.

This statement is also extremely naive. You were in no position to make such statements and lend further credence to the project, but because you did, people were convinced of the legitimacy.

How can you have it both ways: claiming to also be duped, yet having made bold proclamations of legitimacy when you had no basis to? This appears to be a gross contradiction. At best, you should have said you've been reassured licensing is there. But you acted like it was indisputable fact, despite having no evidence of that.

If you're saying now you had no real visibility to the licensing, that's exactly what you should have said back then. I wouldn't know how to interpret that as anything other than deceptive, and for customers that were duped to hurl accusations your way is not surprising at all.

I see the 42 thumbs up, and I get the sympathy, since you were also duped, but unfortunately you were also taking part in the duping process.

I don't have skin in the game, but I'm perplexed how a professional would make such statements without really having verified anything, which is why I'm writing this. If you're a professional, be a professional.

#11087 3 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

I don't have skin in the game, but I'm perplexed how a professional would make such statements without really having verified anything, which is why I'm writing this.

There is just no way to verify anything.

Even if you had legal knowledge of licensing contracts, and could actually read and interpret a license given to Kevin, there would be no way of knowing if the contract had been canceled in the months since it was signed.

Just like when you show a cop a copy of your Proof Of Insurance on your car. The cop has no way of knowing that the insurance had been canceled 3 months ago.

#11088 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

There is just no way to verify anything.
Even if you had legal knowledge of licensing contracts, and could actually read and interpret a license given to Kevin, there would be no way of knowing if the contract had been canceled in the months since it was signed.
Just like when you show a cop a copy of your Proof Of Insurance on your car. The cop has no way of knowing that the insurance had been canceled 3 months ago.

Exactly my point. Despite this, claims to the contrary were made, as though such verification had been done. Which they conceivably might have if he was conducting business meetings and introductions, and meeting the various parties involved.

Naivete isn't a good excuse. A professional would recognize exactly the point you're making and not make the bold claims that were made.

#11089 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I have never heard of a parts company asking to see any "proof of IP license" when making parts.
Does CCC ask for a Marvel IP License every time Stern orders cabinets?
No.

Does CCC ever make bold, official-sounding proclamations to Stern customers that Stern indeed has licenses?

#11090 3 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Naivete isn't a good excuse. A professional would recognize exactly the point you're making and not make the bold claims that were made.

Whom the hell is professional in pinball then? AS mentioned before he's in the same boat with: Marco, Pinball Life, Spooky, Back Alley, Pinball Refinery, Cointaker, and VirtuaPin...etc Or are all these people fine because there wasn;t a "bold statement" made?

Quoted from merccat:

Lol... Knock off a convienence store for a 100 bucks and go to jail. Scam 250 people for nearly a million and walk away.

Knock them off with a weapon maybe you'd go to jail.
I don't think 250 people paid in full

15
#11091 3 years ago

Kevin was a great liar.

I spoke with him IN PERSON as he described getting the license and small changes that Fox wanted done in the artwork. We talked about the separate music licensing too (something I know much about), and his lies came out clean and his terminology correct.

I'm the most cynical person ever hatched, and yet I did not catch a single flaw in his stories. He probably told them so many times, that he believed them himself.

#11092 3 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Does CCC ever make bold, official-sounding proclamations to Stern customers that Stern indeed has licenses?

CCC is too smart to ever get involved with any pinheads.

Just like in politics, pinheads will pull apart your every word, dwell on your every misstep......

#11093 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Kevin was a great liar.
I spoke with him IN PERSON as he described getting the license and small changes that Fox wanted done in the artwork. We talked about the separate music licensing too (something I know much about), and his lies came out clean and his terminology correct.
I'm the most cynical person ever hatched, and yet I did not catch a single flaw in his stories. He probably told them so many times, that he believed them himself.

Not arguing with any of that, but would any of that lead you to make proclamations of legitimacy? Did you?

I think I've made my point, and I'm not posting to make the vendor feel bad, I'm just perplexed how business is conducted and the amount of harm unprofessionalism can do.

#11094 3 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

Not arguing with any of that, but would any of that lead you to make proclamations of legitimacy? Did you?

I'm afraid I did.

Quoted from HighVoltage:

I'm just perplexed how business is conducted and the amount of harm unprofessionalism can do.

Pinball vendors are seldom very "professional". I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that, lol

#11095 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

I'm afraid I did.

I don't get it... maybe you had to be there...

#11096 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Kevin was a great liar.
I'm the most cynical person ever hatched, and yet I did not catch a single flaw in his stories. He probably told them so many times, that he believed them himself.

image_(resized).jpeg

#11097 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Pinball vendors are seldom very "professional". I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that, lol

That's understandable, but to ignore the extreme context that this about a "start up" and dealing with trust of many customers risking 100s of thousands of dollars, is not.

#11098 3 years ago
Quoted from HighVoltage:

I don't get it... maybe you had to be there...

I'm of course embarrassed now, but I did kinda vouch for Kevin.

I showed people pictures of the game under construction, the blank playfields with final art, the Little Richard song - and how it required a separate license from the movie orchestration, the cool rules like the "no catch" multiball......

I can't deny it, he had me believing his bullshit.

#11099 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

I see that 1 spouse can file for bankruptcy without the other in Michigan but in this case I would think she is just as responsible (since there was no legal business entity the business and all associated debts were owned by both I would think.)

I believe that is a Federal rule. Plus, a spouse does not have to cooperate and disclose their income. Great way to screw up the Means Test. They can say they are separated if necessary. Can't be proven. If the feds say fraud is taking place in that the uncooperative spouse has a much higher income (I say it won't be with a relatively modest home and small business income). Then it would have to be disclosed in order for the BK case to proceed without being dismissed.

In Michigan, spouses are separated and live in the same household quite often.

#11100 3 years ago
Quoted from Enaud:

Okay, let's get this back on topic, if we can. I hear a bunch of arm-chair quarterbacks here.
What are you doing about it?????
This is for those that are out money and who want to fight this bankruptcy declaration.
Contact Keith and let's try to get him to file and Adversary Proceeding on behalf of several people that are owed money. It is a slam dunk that this can be declared a non-dischargeable debt. But we have to sue in order to even have a chance of recovery. That non-dischargeable debt will hound him forever if we sue. Now, that means more expense, but if we do it collectively it won't hurt too bad.
Individually, the expense of an adversary proceeding is cost prohibitive. We must file collectively as a group of creditors and share the cost.
PM me if you are in. I will introduce you to Keith and try to work up an arrangement.
There is a very narrow window of opportunity to respond. So, it's time for action, or just keep bitching on this forum.
Serious PMs only.
Thanks.

Quoted from Enaud:

There is no other way to recover your money. If you don't file an adversary proceeding then you are accepting his bankruptcy and he walks away. The criminal litigation is another matter for those that are involved with it. And an adversary proceeding will be required for them as well.
This litigation is against his bankruptcy declaration. Suing him is required in order to deny him the ability to walk away from his debts by declaring bankruptcy. Through the adversary proceeding it could be easily proven that he committed fraud, which makes the debt non-dischargeable. That would mean the debt hangs on his shoulders forever.
If you don't sue then he walks away from all of his debt obligations.

Bump for this final push. Kevin is on his way out the door, if we don't grab him by the ankles and bring him to the ground he WALKS AWAY front this! With no debt!! Please PM Enaud ASAP. We can't let this scoundrel win and bankrupt his way out of this nightmare. This looks like our final chance to fight for justice and change Kevin's life forever.

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