(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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52
#11001 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Paul could tell us this... Hey Noah, how much did Kevin give you?
And what did you spend it all on that you couldn't give it back?

I am more than happy to discuss. After the accusations, name calling, and slanderous statements, I've been quite put off about providing any insight.

When I got involved, it wasn't a scam. At least, I didn't think it was. That was 2012, and I offered to build his cabs, because the one he had looked like SH*T. By that time, he had been to dozens of shows with it, so I assumed he had been vetted by show organizers, etc.

After getting involved, I realized the project would probably never happen, because he just didn't have everything setup to completely build them, so I introduced him to people in the industry that could help him accomplish his goals. To be totally forthcoming, he NEVER would have made them without my involvement, at least in my opinion.

We took a deposit on cabinets. That part's true. It's not even close to the amount I've seen people post here, though. We were contracted to do a job, and Kevin defaulted on our agreement. He did drop a deposit, and that deposit was lost as soon as he defaulted. He did receive a number of cabinets and many, MANY hours of our services in the R&D and prototyping stages, so I'm not sitting on a pile of money, as I've read in some posts here. It wasn't $200K or some ridiculous figure. It was in line with the job.

Once the licensing concerns came up, I drilled him for more info. He would tell stories about how Fox was approving the artwork on the playfield, what needed updating, which sound clips and video could be used, etc. I was 100% convinced he was legit, or I never would have gotten involved in the first place!

After hiring staff and setting up for production the 3 or 4 times he announced they would begin, I was losing my ASS. That's when it all fell apart. He lied to me right up until the end, when he claimed they're still going to be built, just not by him, and we'd still be building the cabinets.

I have fully cooperated with PayPal and other entities in an attempt to get people their money back. I certainly don't deserve to be in the same category as Kevin. I've worked hard for everything I have, and it's done a lot of damage to my reputation, sadly. I'm an honest guy who got involved with the wrong company.

Feel free to call me if you have any questions (248) 252-6871. I have absolutely nothing to hide. The name-calling and false accusations here have left me quite bitter. If I hadn't been wrongly accused of the things I've been accused of here, I would be happy to be more forthcoming with my experience. I'm even willing to testify on the buyers' behalf if there's ever a criminal trial.

I never took a dime from you or any of the "pre-owners". I worked hard to try to ensure everyone would get what they paid for. I definitely feel I deserve better treatment around here, as we have a lot to offer the community.

Kevin is the bad guy here, and I feel I've been persecuted simply because I'm not afraid to be a member of this community, and he's in hiding.

The whole situation sucks.

-16
#11002 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

I was 100% convinced he was legit

Yeah I've heard you say this before. From what I understand you thought he was "legit" because of no other reason except that he told you he was, no? VirtuaPin used to seem "legit" to me too until I found out you went ahead and took money for a project you didn't know was above board or not.

So I'll ask you again: What paperwork or online proof, or magic trick did you see that made you this "100%" convinced? You do know what "100%" means, don't you?

25
#11003 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Yeah I've heard you say this before. From what I understand you thought he was "legit" because of no other reason except that he told you he was, no? VirtuaPin used to seem "legit" to me too until I found out you went ahead and took money for a project you didn't know was above board or not.
So I'll ask you again: What paperwork or online proof, or magic trick did you see that made you this "100%" convinced? You do know what "100%" means, don't you?

A sub-contractor would have no reason to ask a company to see their license agreement with another company. They would just do the work they were contracted to do.

Besides, plenty of people ended up being fooled. Why else would so many people be out $$$? Sure, it's obvious now...but back then, not so much. The benefit of hindsight.

10
#11004 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Yeah I've heard you say this before. From what I understand you thought he was "legit" because of no other reason except that he told you he was, no? VirtuaPin used to seem "legit" to me too until I found out you went ahead and took money for a project you didn't know was above board or not.
So I'll ask you again: What paperwork or online proof, or magic trick did you see that made you this "100%" convinced? You do know what "100%" means, don't you?

By your logic, there's more than a half dozen companies that are no longer legit. Marco, Pinball Life, Spooky, Back Alley, Pinball Refinery, and VirtuaPin, just to name a few, have all sold products and services to Kevin for his Predator project. They're all great companies and great guys who don't deserve the accusations. We were all trying to support boutique pinball, as pinball is our passion. None of us deserve to have our names dragged through the mud.

I really wish things had turned out differently. I was doing the job for next to nothing in the end just to help Kevin meet his BOM on $4750 per unit. There wasn't much there to work with. In the end, it's definitely COSTING me.

#11005 3 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

A sub-contractor would have no reason to ask a company to see their license agreement with another company. They would just do the work they were contracted to do.

Exactly.

Toshiba sells memory chips that end up in bootleg Iphones.

It's not Toshiba's fault.

#11006 3 years ago

Why should a sub contractor take an even larger loss when he was hired to do a job and was only paid for part of the work that he did? I do not have skin in the game but I do not see the need to crucify someone who was only trying to help. Kevin is the only scumbag who lied to everyone and stole your money. Anyone he hired to do work was just doing their job, thinking that they were going to be part of a cool project. Unless the contractor knew that it was a scam they have zero liability or obligation to do anything else.

-1
#11007 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

By your logic, there's more than a half dozen companies that are no longer legit

No, my logic only singles out the ones who blatantly used Fox's Predator I.P. without seeing a shred of proof of a licensing agreement like you did. We saw a picture of the run of cabinets you were making, and that lent a legitimacy to the project at that time because up until then, to me at least, your company seemed above that kind of thing.

And by the same logic, imo this analogy doesn't apply as there's no violation of copyright/licensing on a blank memory chip:

Quoted from vid1900:

Toshiba sells memory chips that end up in bootleg Iphones

On thing's for sure, whether Noah is lying or not, Kevin is obviously one hell of a storyteller!

11
#11008 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

No, my logic only singles out the ones who blatantly used Fox's Predator I.P. without seeing a shred of proof of a licensing agreement like you did. We saw a picture of the run of cabinets you were making, and that lent a legitimacy to the project at that time because up until then, to me at least, your company seemed above that kind of thing.
And by the same logic, imo this analogy doesn't apply as there's no violation of copyright/licensing on a blank memory chip:

On thing's for sure, whether Noah is lying or not, Kevin is obviously one hell of a storyteller!

You are mistaken that we were the only company involved with products containing IP. You may want to do your research, especially before slandering anyone further.

14
#11009 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

No, my logic only singles out the ones who blatantly used Fox's Predator I.P. without seeing a shred of proof of a licensing agreement like you did. We saw a picture of the run of cabinets you were making, and that lent a legitimacy to the project at that time because up until then, to me at least, your company seemed above that kind of thing.

I have never heard of a parts company asking to see any "proof of IP license" when making parts.

Does CCC ask for a Marvel IP License every time Stern orders cabinets?

No.

-

If Stern ordered 500 Spiderman cabs, and it latter turned out that Stern did not have a license from Marvel, CCC would not be libel. They just build wood products.

Even if Stern showed them a licensing agreement with Marvel, CCC would have no way of knowing if it's genuine or photo-shopped.

CCC just takes the deposit and starts working on the job.

#11010 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:that we were the only company

Quoted from TheZohan:

my logic only singles out the ones

By "ones," I mean more than "one."

#11011 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Does CCC ask for a Marvel IP License every time Stern orders cabinets

I get that Vid but to me that's another skewed analogy because Stern is more apt to have that kind of license than a kid in the basement.

#11012 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

I get that Vid but to me that's another skewed analogy because Stern is more apt to have that kind of license than a kid in the basement.

Even if Kevin had CCC do the cabs, CCC still would not have checked if he owned the IP.

It's not their worry. They don't have any IP attorneys on staff to study the contracts.

#11013 3 years ago
Quoted from jamieflowers:

Why should a sub contractor take an even larger loss when he was hired to do a job and was only paid for part of the work that he did?

Normally, a sub-contractor is paid in installments as the job progresses, or in full after the job is complete.

#11014 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

I get that Vid but to me that's another skewed analogy because Stern is more apt to have that kind of license than a kid in the basement.

CCC or other cabinet companies just sends blank cabinets. It's up to the pinball mfg. after that.

19
#11015 3 years ago

Or to make it plain as day:

If I own a sign shop and someone comes in to order a "Big Slugs Harley Davidson" sign for their new dealership - I have no way of knowing if "Big Slug" has a license from HD to use their name and logo.

Even if Big Slug shows me an agreement that appears to be from HD, I have no way of knowing what that contract says.

I'm not going to retain an IP attorney to read a contract to me.

I'm not going to spend a day on the phone trying to contact HD for confirmation.

I don't care if Big Slug has a license or not. If HD has a problem with Slug and makes him take the sign down, it's no skin off my back. Hell, I can make more money on the new "Big Slugs Motorcycles" sign.

#11016 3 years ago
Quoted from Crashnburn:

CCC or other cabinet companies just sends blank cabinets. It's up to the pinball mfg. after that.

Traditionally, cabs came with the artwork already silkscreened on it.

After 2010 Stern started with the decal nonsense.

They were doing the decals in house, but then changed to CCC pre-installing them.

#11017 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

By that time, he had been to dozens of shows with it, so I assumed he had been vetted by show organizers, etc.

It is NOT the job of show organizers to "vet" their attendees. Just want to make that clear. Anyone can buy a table or booth at a show; their presence is not any kind of endorsement from the show organizers. Assuming someone is "legit" because they've been to a few shows is just being silly and lazy.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

I was 100% convinced he was legit, or I never would have gotten involved in the first place!

Hey, he fooled a lot of people. Including at least one lawyer. Guess he was a smooth talker. I will say he never convinced me he was legit, but it was irrelevant because I had no interest in the theme or the game anyway.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

I never took a dime from you or any of the "pre-owners". I worked hard to try to ensure everyone would get what they paid for. I definitely feel I deserve better treatment around here, as we have a lot to offer the community.

I think people are just ASSuming y'all got more from Kevin's deposit than you delivered back to him in cabs, and they want a piece of the difference. If you spent more money than you received in deposit, Kevin owes you like he does everyone else.

#11018 3 years ago
Quoted from Crashnburn:

other cabinet companies just sends blank cabinets

Well, ok, if this is the way it went in this case I stand corrected-- This whole time I've thought Noah's company made and applied the artwork too. If they didn't, my apologies.

#11019 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

I am more than happy to discuss. After the accusations, name calling, and slanderous statements, I've been quite put off about providing any insight.
When I got involved, it wasn't a scam. At least, I didn't think it was. That was 2012, and I offered to build his cabs, because the one he had looked like SH*T. By that time, he had been to dozens of shows with it, so I assumed he had been vetted by show organizers, etc.
After getting involved, I realized the project would probably never happen, because he just didn't have everything setup to completely build them, so I introduced him to people in the industry that could help him accomplish his goals. To be totally forthcoming, he NEVER would have made them without my involvement, at least in my opinion.
We took a deposit on cabinets. That part's true. It's not even close to the amount I've seen people post here, though. We were contracted to do a job, and Kevin defaulted on our agreement. He did drop a deposit, and that deposit was lost as soon as he defaulted. He did receive a number of cabinets and many, MANY hours of our services in the R&D and prototyping stages, so I'm not sitting on a pile of money, as I've read in some posts here. It wasn't $200K or some ridiculous figure. It was in line with the job.
Once the licensing concerns came up, I drilled him for more info. He would tell stories about how Fox was approving the artwork on the playfield, what needed updating, which sound clips and video could be used, etc. I was 100% convinced he was legit, or I never would have gotten involved in the first place!
After hiring staff and setting up for production the 3 or 4 times he announced they would begin, I was losing my ASS. That's when it all fell apart. He lied to me right up until the end, when he claimed they're still going to be built, just not by him, and we'd still be building the cabinets.
I have fully cooperated with PayPal and other entities in an attempt to get people their money back. I certainly don't deserve to be in the same category as Kevin. I've worked hard for everything I have, and it's done a lot of damage to my reputation, sadly. I'm an honest guy who got involved with the wrong company.
Feel free to call me if you have any questions (248) 252-6871. I have absolutely nothing to hide. The name-calling and false accusations here have left me quite bitter. If I hadn't been wrongly accused of the things I've been accused of here, I would be happy to be more forthcoming with my experience. I'm even willing to testify on the buyers' behalf if there's ever a criminal trial.
I never took a dime from you or any of the "pre-owners". I worked hard to try to ensure everyone would get what they paid for. I definitely feel I deserve better treatment around here, as we have a lot to offer the community.
Kevin is the bad guy here, and I feel I've been persecuted simply because I'm not afraid to be a member of this community, and he's in hiding.
The whole situation sucks.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

By your logic, there's more than a half dozen companies that are no longer legit. Marco, Pinball Life, Spooky, Back Alley, Pinball Refinery, and VirtuaPin, just to name a few, have all sold products and services to Kevin for his Predator project. They're all great companies and great guys who don't deserve the accusations. We were all trying to support boutique pinball, as pinball is our passion. None of us deserve to have our names dragged through the mud.
I really wish things had turned out differently. I was doing the job for next to nothing in the end just to help Kevin meet his BOM on $4750 per unit. There wasn't much there to work with. In the end, it's definitely COSTING me.

Quoted from NoahFentz:

You are mistaken that we were the only company involved with products containing IP. You may want to do your research, especially before slandering anyone further.

thanks for sharing your experience. If you have not talked with him yet, then it would be appreciated if you would talk with KiethinMI.

I will ask him to reach out to you.

#11020 3 years ago
Quoted from TheZohan:

Well, ok, if this is the way it went in this case I stand corrected-- This whole time I've thought Noah's company made and applied the artwork too. If they didn't, my apologies.

I told you I'd be forthcoming, so I will correct you ...

We DID print and apply the decals. As soon as the licensing issues came to light, we destroyed all printed materials and deleted all art files from our system. It's not something I'm proud of.

We didn't design them, though.

#11021 3 years ago

No one thought they were being lied to. They were taking a pin to shows and had promo stuff on websites. The best camouflage of all was being so out in the open. Many people were fooled or they would not have built cabs, put money down . . .

Hindsight is 20/20. There is only one place to point the finger.

#11022 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

Marco, Pinball Life, Spooky, Back Alley, Pinball Refinery, and VirtuaPin, just to name a few, have all sold products and services to Kevin for his Predator project.

& Cointaker

Quoted from flynnibus:

Hey... Slow down there.... Don't sell yourself short

Nice

#11023 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

Hi Guys!
I just wanted to drop in and say that I would not be building cabinets and printing and applying decals for a project that's not fully licensed!
Anyone that knows me knows I won't even consider touching unlicensed projects!
Speculation can now rest.
Pre-owners can certainly look forward to receiving their PREDATORS.
Thank you.

-1
#11024 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

PREDATORs.
Is that better?

-18
#11025 3 years ago

Kevin was traveling around with a working machine. It all seemed legit. Fox had no idea. If that mob didn't bang on foxes door, everyone would have their pin. Not the right way, but they'd have something for their money. Those guys suck too. They got their refund then wanted to end it. They had to know those waiting for pins would get nothing.

#11026 3 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:

Kevin was traveling around with a working machine.

Well..."working" is technically correct I guess.

#11027 3 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:If that mob didn't bang on foxes door, everyone would have their pin. Not the right way, but they'd have something for their money. Those guys suck too

#11028 3 years ago

At $4750, not everyone would have gotten their pin. You'd end up in a situation like this: http://mashable.com/2016/04/16/coolest-cooler-money/#an.hAPCU38qA

At least with JPOP there's some transparency. We can see all the prototypes, fancy hinges, rent, patent applications and generous salary and say "yeah, that's where all the money went". John wasted it PROPERLY (sad as that is to say).

Kevin got maybe 10 games worth of parts, tops. (which you know he'll build and sell under the table)

What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

#11029 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

hotels, shipping, food, moving this "working game" around the country?

#11030 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

At $4750, not everyone would have gotten their pin. You'd end up in a situation like this: http://mashable.com/2016/04/16/coolest-cooler-money/#an.hAPCU38qA
At least with JPOP there's some transparency. We can see all the prototypes, fancy hinges, rent, patent applications and generous salary and say "yeah, that's where all the money went". John wasted it PROPERLY (sad as that is to say).
Kevin got maybe 10 games worth of parts, tops. (which you know he'll build and sell under the table)
What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

Didn't people say he bought a house and photography equipment for his wife's business?

#11031 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

At $4750, not everyone would have gotten their pin. You'd end up in a situation like this: http://mashable.com/2016/04/16/coolest-cooler-money/#an.hAPCU38qA
At least with JPOP there's some transparency. We can see all the prototypes, fancy hinges, rent, patent applications and generous salary and say "yeah, that's where all the money went". John wasted it PROPERLY (sad as that is to say).
Kevin got maybe 10 games worth of parts, tops. (which you know he'll build and sell under the table)
What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

CFH is in acquiring most of these parts thru third parties buying from Kevin.

#11032 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

"General Corporate Purposes".

#11034 3 years ago

that project I really wanted to succeed, but when funding gets out of control, a small startup doesn't know how to ramp up sometimes. Jerri Ellsworth was on a podcast recently, and she talked about how her CastAR went from a periphial to a stand-alone unit, and they still had to satisify the kickstarter backers:
http://embedded.fm/episodes/156

#11035 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Didn't people say he bought a house and photography equipment for his wife's business?

I think people said his wife had a business, and a shit box house under 90k....and of course they figured out whatever conspiracy shit they wanted to

#11036 3 years ago
Quoted from TheLaw:

I think people said his wife had a business, and a shit box house under 90k....and of course they figured out whatever conspiracy shit they wanted to

That's not what the money trail and bank statements say...

#11037 3 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

That's not what the money trail and bank statements say...

OK, what do they say?

13
#11038 3 years ago

They say Kevin is a douchebag

#11039 3 years ago
Quoted from NoahFentz:

When I got involved, it wasn't a scam. At least, I didn't think it was.

Thank-you for answering my simple question.

#11040 3 years ago
Quoted from Mike_J:

OK, what do they say?

they say that all will be revealed in due time, but with ongoing litigation it is wise to not speak of many things in public at this juncture. you will just have to trust that discovery has been eye opening for many.

#11041 3 years ago
Quoted from LadySlingshot:

f that mob didn't bang on foxes door, everyone would have their pin.

I give up...............

#11042 3 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Toshiba sells memory chips that end up in bootleg Iphones.

Which would make for a fair comparison *if* Toshiba were telling everyone that they thought that these iPhones were legitimate.

#11043 3 years ago
Quoted from benheck:

What people want to know is: What did he spend the rest on?

This guy:

images_(13)_(resized).jpg

images_(13)_(resized).jpg

#11044 3 years ago
Quoted from Rarehero:

Didn't people say he bought a house and photography equipment for his wife's business?

yep I recommend making people aware by reviewing her business

https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=Laume+Photography+

#11045 3 years ago

According to her FaceBook page she is hiring an "office girl."

Maybe someone here can make a recommendation or apply for the position.

#11046 3 years ago

Yep, there was a Google review already added calling Kevin out, but it has since been removed.

-21
#11047 3 years ago

I agree, those things (house and camera equipment) were bought after taking money for Predator. But, would it not be a challenge to prove he never deserved to take a salary for himself like JPop did? Doesn't this all still come back to whether there was intent to defraud? Even then, would a judge (or bankruptcy court?) ever force them to sell their modest home or force them to sell their only source of income (the photography biz)? Especially since they have a child? And how do you prove they never had a dime in savings prior to taking money for Predator? Seems like a huge uphill climb. Good luck. Looking forward to hearing what all came out in the various depositions.

#11048 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

I agree, those things (house and camera equipment) were bought after taking money for Predator. But, would it not be a challenge to prove he never deserved to take a salary for himself like JPop did? Doesn't this all still come back to whether there was intent to defraud? Even then, would a judge (or bankruptcy court?) ever force them to sell their modest home or force them to sell their only source of income (the photography biz)? Especially since they have a child? And how do you prove they never had a dime in savings prior to taking money for Predator? Seems like a huge uphill climb. Good luck. Looking forward to hearing what all came out in the various depositions.

I will never understand this "taking a salary" BS.

People who were screwed by Kevin and JPop paid their money to buy a pinball machine. After Kevin/JPop take the money, their responsibility is to deliver a pinball machine as described, whether they make a dime or lose a dime.

Did these crooks ever tell their customers that they were funding a startup and there is a chance all of their cash will do nothing more than finance a photography business or purchase an Infiniti SUV?

#11049 3 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Even then, would a judge (or bankruptcy court?) ever force them to sell their modest home or force them to sell their only source of income

White privilege. Wah wah wah. They did the crime - they do the time.

#11050 3 years ago

Lol... Knock off a convienence store for a 100 bucks and go to jail. Scam 250 people for nearly a million and walk away. Maybe the convience store crooks should start calling their robberies a failed business.

Ok in most cases they are nowhere near equatable as honest business people do fail for legitimate reasons and i do not think those people deserve any punishment. But the con artist vs the hold up... Not much difference other than the weapon used to persuade.

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