SeriousRevenge_(resized).jpg

Keep in mind he also has a low skill job as well. He and his family have to eat. 20% of that will go to pay debt assuming an enforceable judgement or hundred of them is/are entered.

The problem is that IRS agents are stretched pretty thin nowadays thanks to recent medical laws and most of the activity is on offshore accounts and businesses to shelter income. As sad as it sounds, Kevin might not be a big enough fish.

how many people are there who actually lost money - lots of people got money back through there credit cards - should we have a thread that just list who is still out money - i am one of them - if somebody starts a thread you can put me down - i would have to look at the exact amout - but i got a little of it back from my credit card because when i paid paypal i didn't have all the money in my account.

so some of it came from my credit card - and that i got back - if we see enough people maybe we would get together - but right now i been sitting on the sidelines just watching this as i don't want to throw money out there with no chance. i am in for throwing money out there without getting it back if he goes to jail. I did talk to keith and din't feel that amount was worth it as recovery of money is very hard.

Putting money up for jail has a better chance then recovery in my opinion - anyway is it worth it to get a list of us out money - maybe it has already been done - i don't know - if it was done before nobody contacted me for the exact amount - that i know - thanks ed

Those of us that have already paid up front for a lawyer are paving the way for ourselves, not for others that are sitting on the sideline and then want to come crashing in on our party to get paid for something we stood up for. What, we take the risk and you get the reward as well by sitting on the sideline? If you didn't file a claim with Keith then don't expect to get anything back if we do. The twenty or so of us that are counting on Keith are putting our faith in him now and not later when he starts cutting checks to the ones that filed with him.

John P. Dayhuff
Battle Creek, Mi.
269-979-3836

i didnt have any money in, but same situation i had. Built my house, gave my builder almost 100k, took off with my money and filed bankruptcy. Never saw a penny and almost lost everything.

I believe Kevin started this on the up and up. He thought he found a way to do it legally. Then he realized he could not and rather than fess up and refund money, he decided to lie and keep on going. One lie led to two to three and then it snowballed and he just kept on lying. He had multiple opportunities to fess up and get out and minimize the damage. Lets be honest, if Kevin came clean and said, listen some of the money is gone, but I can refund 80%, most folks would have been pleased, although some would have still bitched up a storm, but in hindsight, . . . Unfortunately for all involved, he just kept digging the hole deeper and deeper.

No one would want 'alien hunter', this was not a great machine, while it had a decent enough rule set, the playfield was basic and boring, there were no cool toys (lets not even get started on the UV), etc. It was all about the theme. Maybe a handful of folks would have stayed in, but to think he could have changed theme and sold 250, no fracking way.

Other then the ramps, and wiring, I believe everything was else was stock (ball guides are easy enough to make as needed). Those ramps could be made in a kitchen, but would need to be two pieces, maybe three. However, the prototype ramps sucked, the ball would frequently fly right off. Again, without the theme, this machine is not worth making.

As far as the group of guys who exposed it. I agree with those who feel that they did cause damage to others by holding back, relative to it moving folks outside their windows for charge backs. No doubt thousands of dollars could have been recovered had they exposed what they had found earlier. However, I seriously doubt they had even given any thought to that when they did what they did. They were self motivated at the time to get their money and to then bring Kevin down. At the same time, there were plenty of naysayers before that, so not like there was no indication/rumors of an issue. Of course there were plenty of defenders and I think the whole EoD thing, which clearly was legit, certainly supported the belief he was legit on Predator as well. At the same time, since that was legit, it also showed that Kevin knew he was not legit on Predator.

Business fail all the time, and if Skit-B failed due to their inability to get games built, given his lack of business or manufacturing expertise, that would be one thing, but Kevin lied and lied and lied and in my book that made it fraud. Anyone who did jump in, had to understand, despite the belief you were "buying a product and not investing", that you were given money to a totally unproven entity and that there was substantial risk in doing so. I'm sure for every person who did put money down, there were 10 others who thought about it, but did not want to take the risk. Accordingly, the fact the games never saw the light of day, is not a total shock. However, what Kevin did, imo, was fraud, and he should pay the price for that.

you should look into the timing of c&d letters compared to when payments were required. It may change your beliefs.

Wow John you took that the wrong way - that's not my intention at all - i better just stay out of this as i can see people will just jump to conclusions - i stated i would like to help if i knew there were enough people - actually i am just going to quit here as whatever i write will more then likely be taken the wrong way.

thanks ed

I said when he started he was on the up and up, he certainly did not have C&D letters at the start. Certainly asking for money after the C&D was issued is a questionable act, having said that getting a C&D does not always mean you are in the wrong, but in this case, even if he felt he was still okay, that should have been sufficient for him to know to not be taking money until he resolved the licensing question. Obviously he choose otherwise, and certainly if he was walking a fine line up until that point, he crossed well over it then.

What does "on the up and up" mean? Does it include the inexplicable stupidity of thinking you don't need a license to use a massive IP like Predator on hundreds of items that you intend to sell for thousands of dollars each? How about deciding to design and take money for an unlicensed product because you're a small player and are unlikely to get caught even though you know you're taking a risk (with other people's money) if Fox finds out you're using its IP without permission?

Either way, Kevin apparently decided to act as his own lawyer on this one, and given that five minutes of googling would have definitively told him he was in the wrong, this seems like "dumb and dumber" at best and "fraudulent" at worst. "On the up and up" doesn't enter into it no matter how far back you look.

Maybe Experts of Dangerous would have produced enough revenue to refund those that pre-paid on Predator. But now it looks like we will never know...

It certainly does in this case. It means he knew he didn't have the license before he had us pay deposits...any good faith or stupidity argument he can make is out the window after the C&D for sure.

Just curious, but either way it was not illegal for him to do so was it? Under a C&D is it illegal to continue working (even taking money) while he tries to resolve the issue. Was he obligated to communicate he may have had license issues? I would think the only actual illegal thing would have been to actually ship the game before reconciling the license issue?

Is the goal now to strictly try and convince law enforcement something illegal was done? Because it sure sounds like no matter what you do he really does not have any money (he was selling whatever assets he possibly could just to pay his lawyer) and he is perfectly comfortable living a very humble lifestyle. He does not need a good credit score. He did not care before this venture started and he still does not care now. So what is the goal of the legal action?

The primary theory is fraudulent inducement: he said he had a license for everything and even the art was approved by Fox and what not, he received a C&D letter saying he didn't, then he took in money from us. Yes, what he did was not legal, we were defrauded out of money. Now he's in bankruptcy trying to stop a slew of judgements from piling up on him.

Agreed.. they should have exposed it early on when there was no movement of building. Instead of people paying court fees, I would think most people could have had their credit companies go after him. If a credit card company suddenly has to fork out a few hundred thousand, I'm sure their lawyers would make sure they got their money back.

As for people who think those whistleblowers should have just kept quiet and let this sneak under the cracks, you think the legal department at Stern wouldn't do a background check on them as well? Bunch of kids in the basement building 250 machines for what was it, $4800 with a license? If they have to pay licensing fees, I guarantee they'll make sure everyone is (which would have been a phone call or two).. Especially someone taking a million dollar chunk out of the market pinball pie.

So, in this particular case is it possible to prove fraud in a civil court and that can result in criminal charges? Just curious how this can get back in the hands of law enforcement to determine possible criminal charges.

I'm not sure. That's a good question for Keith. It's always risky to mix criminal and civil charges due to the defendants alleging extortion against the civil claimants.

I'm not involved in the case by the way. I've written off my $250 in my mind long ago.

You dont have a clue what you are talking about, but your posting style sure does seem familiar...

Do you know if that CONtractor ever had to pay anything back to customers? Any idea if he is building homes these days as an LLC?

Following along with the posts here I only asked some basic questions on what the objective was (because it does not seem clear at all among those still pursuing action) and how this could potentially turn back into a criminal matter. Good luck to you for whatever it is you hope will eventually happen. You are quite the forensic writing style detective.

Most route operators never collect themselves, they have someone trusted handle that for several reasons. One being what you eluded to.

If he's indigent, he can get a court appointed Lawyer. Guess who pays for most of that?

So, is anyone actually objecting to the debt discharge, or are you just bitching about how wrong his bankruptcy is? For anyone that is planning on initiating and adversary proceeding, I think it would be much more economical to join together and file once on behalf of several creditors, rather than lots of separate proceedings. The clerk told me the filing fee is $350, and you DO have to appear in court (unless you have an attorney represent you). That attorney is where the dollars start to rack up. And say you are successful in having the discharge of debt denied. While he is in bankruptcy you still can't touch him. After he is out of bankruptcy (say a year or two) you could go after him again. However, if he has no visible money, you still get nothing. And if you do want to go after some money, yet again, there are more lawsuits involved. If you are seriously going to pursue this (it will cost money) contact me so we can start compiling a list of victims. We might be able to contact Keith to see if he would consider representing us. As I understand it, his current legal proceedings have nothing to do with this bankruptcy. Those are two different issues.
Compare/contrast/comments please...

The people of Michigan. You live in Michigan right?

In general, court appointed counsel is for criminal cases only. so unlikely to apply here unless the prosecutor has a change of heart.

LOL .. this coming from you.... ahahaha

Exactly!

The newer generation have all the answers and don't take kindly to friendly advice.

Oh well, live and learn...

Maybe. I think it"s called a Ponzi scheme.

Has anyone considered contacting the local news media. I know here there is a call for action team from 1 of the local news stations near me that exposes fraud and criminal activity. Maybe if the local police department had to answer to the media they might do something. Dunno just throwing it out there.

Or a photo shoot with the wife

Doesn't seem like a bad idea at all. Attack from all angles. Multiple fronts. Envelop his flank!!

News coverage of this probably wouldn't be good for the community as a whole. While pinheads understand the situation, people who aren't involved in the community won't and might think poorly of pinball in general. A whole bunch of laws that made pinball illegal in certain areas are just starting to get knocked down now, and advertising a situation like this might give the general public pause about voiding those laws and maybe even calling for making new ones.

Desperate times?

It's simply not something the general public really cares much about. Plenty of folks get swindled every day in a variety of ways, unfortunately. Most of those stories never make headlines.

Closed mouth never gets fed. I say make as much noise on as many fronts (IRS, Media, law enforcement, and court filings) till someone listens. So many crime go unpunished simply because victims decide not to speak up.

I think you don't know what a Ponzi scheme is. We've been through this. It wasn't an investment, earlier investors were not paid with money from later investors, etc.

A Fonzie scheme, maybe. "Ayyyyyyy, lookit the cool game I'm designing, give me money. Sit on it, Fox!"

The contractor was actually my next door neighbor where i built the house. He didnt pay anyone that had worked on the house, so I ended up getting sued by all the subcontractors. He filed bankruptcy, then got to live in his nice home free of charge for 2 more years because he had kids, and the government didnt kick them out for that reason. I ended up with nothing in the end, and found out he had not paid any of the subcontractors at other homes he had built. So, I learned how to build a home real quick or I would end up losing everything!

Disagree.
Con men rely on that type of thinking. If he scams pinball hobbyist, why not video hobbyists, car hobbyists or photography hobbyist?
Let everyone know this may not be a person you want to have any association with.

If it were a construction company, for example, then I'd say go for it, since everybody has an idea of what that is and knows there are both good and bad people in the business.

Pinball just isn't big enough to have a whole lot of general awareness (yet), so any negative press is likely to do more harm than good as a whole to the hobby and community.

I think I pretty much said the same thing in the JPop thread a while back.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/jpop-update-thread%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6%e2%80%a6mg-raza-and-aiw%e2%80%a6/page/344#post-2611942

I think your possibly missing the point here. Contractors get called out on a 10k 20k whatever swindle. This is much larger than that and spans to other countries. This isn't a story about a bunch of wasted youth smoking pot, drinking and playing pinball. This is a story about a business. And a con that really really snowballed into the mess it is now. I don't see your logic on how a bunch of people who spent their hard earned money on a product that turned into a scam any different that a contractor ripping someone off.

He did get called out, and did get taken to court. How would mass-media coverage further address the situation?

Speaking of, just heard a news story about a teenager that was wrongly convicted of murder in MI, but his release was held up because he owed court costs and attorneys fees for his public defender. Evidently in MI those costs can be assigned to indigent defendants.

I think it would help if in that media piece Anthony Kraudelt of the FBI is given pressure for letting this slide. That might reinvigorate the criminal investigation - not sure if they ever 'closed' the case on it, but they definitely aren't working hard to fight for those that lost on this case of fraud.

Here in TN it's $50 fee rolled into court costs that are owed upon release

It means he did not start off intending to commit fraud. He thought what he was doing was legal, but once it became clear to him it wasn't and he kept going and continued to say he was licensed, etc. it became fraud. So, you could argue he was acting illegally from the start, but I don't think he understood that, but again, once he did and kept going, he went from being stupid and in over his head to being a criminal who fully knew what he was doing was illegal.

Agreed, but my point being just because someone sends you a C&D does not mean they are in the right and you are in the wrong. I've been in situations where someone sent one trying to claim we were in violation of a patent, clearly hoping to get us to pay them a licensing fee. We felt otherwise, had our lawyer tell them why we felt we were not, and they went away.

Sometimes when something gets called out on a grand scale with media coverage people in power tend to notice. The media is a verocious dog that given the scope of the swindle, would love the opportunity to run with it. If at the least it puts even more pressure on Kevin I'd do it. And usually something like this won't cost you a dime considering everything that has been spent so far. I mean what do you have to lose at this point.

Agreed 100%. There are many frivolous C&D letters sent. In this instance though the C&D is dispositive of the issue. He said Fox issued him a license and fox effectively said no we did not, knock off what you are doing. Yet he still took our money saying he was licensed.

Alleging he was going to be working on the license later doesn't change the fraudulent inducement.

What really ticks me off at Kevin is he won't come on here and explain what happened to all the money he took in. I'm sure all the lawyers he has engaged over the past year have told him not to talk to us (the people he scammed) and just pay them money to solve his problems...

Until they find out he's just some scummy klingon living under a bridge somewhere... then it becomes 'see how easily people are duped' story. You can't really run a man down that is already at the bottom..