(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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#10701 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not stolen property. You can't apply reclaimation policies to creations that were created without license. They were created illegally, not created and than stolen.
It would fall under civil ip laws - not criminal theft

I guess I should clarify my earlier statement. I was thinking in terms of only when Kevin would have possession of the materials (since they would not yet have been delivered to customers). The IP owner can sue for the destruction of the materials in his possession. However, once customers have them, like Neo says, all the IP owner can really do is issue a recall notice.

#10702 2 years ago
Quoted from Stones:

he was irresponsible and going after the quick buck. He knew what he was doing. He could have stopped his con early on.

Basically, the "worst-case-scenario" happened because of his actions. Everything came crumbling down and tons of people were hurt.

The heat was on him for some time, just look at how long his web site was scrubbed and how long he kept the deceit going after that.

How simple could it have been to cancel the game when the initial cease and desist came in, tell everyone he "lost" the license and couldn't proceed. Hell, he might have had many people stay on with a rethemed game.

#10703 2 years ago

does anyone know how you go find what the website looked like at different times in the past few years?

#10704 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

does anyone know how you go find what the website looked like at different times in the past few years?

The Wayback machine.

https://archive.org/web

rd

#10705 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

does anyone know how you go find what the website looked like at different times in the past few years?

https://web.archive.org/web/20130501000000*/http://skitbpinball.com

You can see the original site and the scrubbed one, but we can't identify the exact date. Old site was still there july 20, 2013. new site was archived oct 3, 2013. (So it was definitely scrubbed before the went to Expo 2013).

I'm sure the original predator thread would discuss the new website as well.

#10706 2 years ago

Reviewing the chain of events... the website was scrubbed when they had only taken $250 from people. The big money ask came after the scrub.

Hard to defend that.

#10707 2 years ago
Quoted from frolic:

https://web.archive.org/web/20130501000000*/http://skitbpinball.com
You can see the original site and the scrubbed one, but we can't identify the exact date. Old site was still there july 20, 2013. new site was archived oct 3, 2013.
I'm sure the original predator thread would discuss the new website as well.

thanks, will this stuff stay out there forever, or do I need to capture it all somehow?

#10708 2 years ago

on the wayback machine, you should capture what you need now.
If a robot.txt file is put on any site, wayback machine can't show anything, you'll get an error from wayback.com

#10709 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

thanks, will this stuff stay out there forever, or do I need to capture it all somehow?

just remembered I grabbed all this a ways back. Already have it in case it gets scrubbed.

#10710 2 years ago
Quoted from spfxted:

I ONLY have real ones.

I hope thats your wrist

#10711 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

It's not stolen property. You can't apply reclaimation policies to creations that were created without license. They were created illegally, not created and than stolen.
It would fall under civil ip laws - not criminal theft

Just for the record, this is correct. The original person who went against the IP usually has to destroy what they have on hand and stop selling the rest, and pay the company they stole the IP from, but those items already sold are already sold. A good example of this was the Tengen version of Tetris for the NES. Tengen made the game legitimately thinking they had the license for the home, but they did not and Nintendo is. When the courts sorted it out, they made Tengen destroy all of the copies of the game that weren't yet sold... but those copies of the game that were already in gamer's hands were too late to stop.

Quoted from frolic:

The heat was on him for some time, just look at how long his web site was scrubbed and how long he kept the deceit going after that.
How simple could it have been to cancel the game when the initial cease and desist came in, tell everyone he "lost" the license and couldn't proceed. Hell, he might have had many people stay on with a rethemed game.

So, quick disclosure - I didn't lose any money but I find this whole process fascinating, and I totally agree that there is more to this story that only some people know that will be coming out in the future... Because what is said above is exactly right. Now, maybe I look at things this way because I'm not an idiot, but if all of a sudden I didn't have the ability to manufacture something that I had said that I was going to, I would take a step back and figure out what I could do for it. Then, you reveal everything all at once.

I don't think too many people would have been greatly put off if he came forward and said that he thought he had the license, it turns out he did not have what he thought, and o he is going to instead retheme the game to "Alien Hunter" (or whatever), and that it was delayed by a few months because of this. Get to work redecaling or whatever you need to do to the cabinets, program new sounds in your code, and show it. Explain to people that it's still the same game, just because of the licensing snafu, it won't have the official theme.

I think that a *lot* of people would have stuck around.

Instead, what we do seem to know is that he got served the C&D, and then hid his actions for as long as possible while asking for more money from people. Nothing about that is okay. Nothing about that is someone who was trying his best getting caught up in it. It's the sign of a deceitful person, and so I believe he should get everything that is coming to him.

-31
#10712 2 years ago

The way I see it predator was somewhat of a pyramid scheme. Meaning when the guys from Texas went to the fox movie house to snoop around about the license, that's when it all fell apart. Then everybody wanted their money back and essentially it bankrupt kevin right then and there. He no longer had any working capital, as his PayPal account was frozen and what money was available was refunded. he was backed into a corner with no way to proceed.

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production. Be it right or wrong, I seriously doubt that the licensing issue would have been a problem. I've talked to Kevin and he really does believe in his own mind that he had the license, and He would've made those 250 machines without really having a license. But would've people been mad? Probably not. They have their game. Would have Fox Studios found out? Probably not. And as said above it's not like the movie studio was going to come get it out of your basement and sledgehammer it on your driveway.

To me the guys that share responsibility for downing the project are the yahoos in Texas that brought this to Fox Studios attention. It is clear that Kevin could make the game. I saw Tim Fife's pedator, played it too, that game was complete and it was very nice and finished. And it was freshly made with what little parts Kevin had. (Ramps were the big problem by the way. Kevin never had the ramps made. He had a Proto type wood fixture and two sets of ramps were made... One for Tim's game, and one that was in the black predator that went all the shows.)

It is my opinion Kevin had plans to make these games in full. Was he doing everything right? Clearly not. But when those Texas yahoos closed the net on him via Fox, that's when the whole thing went crashing down. and all his accounts/monies were frozen or refunded. It was like a tidal wave because everybody was asking for their money back. Kevin had spent a fair amount of the money In going to shows and moving his game back-and-forth between the shows. in the end there was nothing left and Kevin could not operate. He could barely buy lunch at McDonald's at that point.

The lack of a license was clearly a problem. But in the big picture if nobody said anything to Fox Studios, the Pyramid scheme would still be operating. Predators would be being made. Experts of dangerous would be the thing that financed predator.

Speaking of which I saw the one and only experts of dangerous. It was a cool design and had great artwork on both the playfield and the cabinet. There was no software so I couldn't play it but man it looked like a good design. Kevin may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but he does have some game design capabilities.

#10713 2 years ago

I posted a 1 star google review for the wifes photo business. Not right that she can do all this stuff and live in her new house bought with stolen money. I encourage others to do the same. Please try to refrain from personal attacks and keep it factual

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Fae+Laume+Photography/@43.604525,-84.262869,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x13df2e1f68452e4d?sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiS24aY6ZvNAhVH6IMKHfpFAMkQ_BIIXzAK

17
#10714 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

The way I see it predator was somewhat of a pyramid scheme. Meaning when the guys from Texas went to the fox movie house to snoop around about the license, that's when it all fell apart. Then everybody wanted their money back and essentially it bankrupt kevin right then and there. He no longer had any working capital, as his PayPal account was frozen and what money was available was refunded. he was backed into a corner with no way to proceed.
If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production. Be it right or wrong, I seriously doubt that the licensing issue would have been a problem. I've talked to Kevin and he really does believe in his own mind that he had the license, and He would've made those 250 machines without really having a license. But would've people been mad? Probably not. They have their game. Would have Fox Studios found out? Probably not. And as said above it's not like the movie studio was going to come get it out of your basement and sledgehammer it on your driveway.
To me the guys that share responsibility for downing the project are the yahoos in Texas that brought this to Fox Studios attention. It is clear that Kevin could make the game. I saw Tim Fife's pedator, played it too, that game was complete and it was very nice and finished. And it was freshly made with what little parts Kevin had. (Ramps were the big problem by the way. Kevin never had the ramps made. He had a Proto type wood fixture and two sets of ramps were made... One for Tim's game, and one that was in the black predator that went all the shows.)
It is my opinion Kevin had plans to make these games in full. Was he doing everything right? Clearly not. But when those Texas yahoos closed the net on him via Fox, that's when the whole thing went crashing down. and all his accounts/monies were frozen or refunded. It was like a tidal wave because everybody was asking for their money back. Kevin had spent a fair amount of the money In going to shows and moving his game back-and-forth between the shows. in the end there was nothing left and Kevin could not operate. He could barely buy lunch at McDonald's at that point.
The lack of a license was clearly a problem. But in the big picture if nobody said anything to Fox Studios, the Pyramid scheme would still be operating. Predators would be being made. Experts of dangerous would be the thing that financed predator.
Speaking of which I saw the one and only experts of dangerous. It was a cool design and had great artwork on both the playfield and the cabinet. There was no software so I couldn't play it but man it looked like a good design. Kevin may not be the sharpest tool in the shed but he does have some game design capabilities.

What???

At no point did Kevin ever have a signed license agreement with Fox to do Predator. A signed license agreement is a contract, printed out, signed by Fox and signed by Kevin.

Based on your statements, I have one simple question for you: Why does Stern and JJP get the licenses for their products?

The group that uncovered the scam are not too blame. Kevin is to blame. The one who said he had the license. The one who said Fox approved the artwork. The one who said he was a nonprofit. The one who was contacted by Fox to stop, yet, he still kept taking people's money.

11
#10715 2 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

The group that uncovered the scam are not too blame.

Those assholes did hold onto the information for a long time, which then prevented a LOT of people from being able to do a chargeback through paypal. They are just a tick lower on the piece of shit level than Kevin.

#10716 2 years ago

Happydayz & cfh, seriously guys show a little respect to all the pinheads who lost a lot of money in all of this. It's clear neither of you know what's transpired from the initial announcement to present day (as it's the only reason you could possibly be defending anything Kevin/Skit-B did) let alone the hard facts, so either read up and get your facts straight so you know what your talking about or drain the thread!

#10717 2 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Those assholes did hold onto the information for a long time, which then prevented a LOT of people from being able to do a chargeback through paypal. They are just a tick lower on the piece of shit level than Kevin.

And what illegal activity did they do?

#10718 2 years ago
Quoted from Nibbles:

Those assholes did hold onto the information for a long time, which then prevented a LOT of people from being able to do a chargeback through paypal.

This is my view. Just revealing the data sixty days earlier would have allowed many more people to do chargebacks.

Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production.

How do we know they were from Texas?

Quoted from goatdan:

I don't think too many people would have been greatly put off if he came forward and said that he thought he had the license, it turns out he did not have what he thought, and o he is going to instead retheme the game to "Alien Hunter" (or whatever), and that it was delayed by a few months because of this. Get to work redecaling or whatever you need to do to the cabinets, program new sounds in your code, and show it. Explain to people that it's still the same game, just because of the licensing snafu, it won't have the official theme.

Nah, it was the theme that sold people on the game. The coding seemed pretty good, in my view, I liked the rule set . . . but the theme'ing is what had people paying for the game.

Quoted from frolic:

Reviewing the chain of events... the website was scrubbed when they had only taken $250 from people. The big money ask came after the scrub.
Hard to defend that.

100% right and this was the big con in my view. Whatever he thought he had he knew he didn't have when he took the website down, but still asked for people's money. People saying his account was frozen by PayPal are only guessing there was still money in it when it was frozen, he might have already moved it all out and the credit card chargebacks that happened might have been consumed by the banks and not the account...he very well may still have a wad of money.

He needed to tell everyone what was happening with the money. He didn't spend 350k going to shows and on a dozen cabinets...

#10719 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

To me the guys that share responsibility for downing the project are the yahoos in Texas that brought this to Fox Studios attention

With all due respect Clay.. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there at least a year between when Kevin said the project was done and ready for production and this whistle blowing? I don't blame those guys one bit, they were worried that they wouldn't be able to do a chargeback after A YEAR.
I know this is pinball, and pinball is hard, but imagine the same scenario in the corporate world. Let's say I'm a contractor, and a company hires me to say.. I don't know, create a website. I'm in a completely different state, and they've never met me, but they hire me because they like my portfolio. They send a down payment, I start working on it. Months go by, and I finish up my work based on the requirements. I send them a snapshot of the pages and claim I'm done. They like what they see, so they send the final payment. They ask when I'm going to ship a CD with all the data so they can upload it to their server. I don't respond to emails. Weeks go by, still no response. They decide to call my phone, I don't answer... repeatedly. Finally after a year goes by they get fed up, they spent all that money and they recieved no product. They file legal action against me because I didn't deliver, but the legal system is slow and not much movement happens. So then some of the employees decide to take it into their own hands and leave negative reviews on his linked in page. Then one of his friends comes in and goes "what gives? He was done, if you guys hadn't messed with his linked in page this could have all worked out".

#10720 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

I saw Tim Fife's pedator, played it too, that game was complete and it was very nice and finished.

Does Tim still have the game? He came into this thread earlier arguing that Kevin did everything right and paid back everyone except the people that were suing him...

11
#10721 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

To me the guys that share responsibility for downing the project are the yahoos in Texas that brought this to Fox Studios attention. It is clear that Kevin could make the game.

Complete nonsense.

#10722 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Last I heard, he thought he was a non-profit entity.

No way to convey how long or hard I laughed at that one via pinside emojis (or any other emojis I have seen)!

#10723 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production. Be it right or wrong, I seriously doubt that the licensing issue would have been a problem.

Quoted from RobT:

Complete nonsense.

If Kevin did this whole thing completely above board, there probably would have been no problem and the mess that resulted might not have happened.

But, the licensing costs might have been too prohibitive to even bother with starting the project anyway.

Shoulda, woulda, coulda.

#10724 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Does Tim still have the game? He came into this thread earlier arguing that Kevin did everything right and paid back everyone except the people that were suing him...

Yeah that's a bunch of shit. The people that were suing him would logically be the people he would pay first.
#RANT
The legal system is f&#ked up. Now that he's filed for chapter 7 bankruptcy, in order to object to the dischargeability of the debt, guess what? You have to sue him again! Adversary proceeding. If the amount was $15k or more, maybe worth the trouble. But, legal fees will eat up most of that. That's the trump card he's holding over everyone. Like a get out of jail free card.
I just hope that the other ongoing civil cases end with him in prison.
#RANT

Thanks for letting me scream just a little.
Cheers!

#10725 2 years ago

In the end, he may get Al CapOWNED by the IRS. We'll see how it plays out.

#10726 2 years ago

When I was at the VFW show last month it was made clear to me that Clay has 2 Predator machines in his possession. 1 supposedly full functioning and 1 not/parts machine. I assume in his personal collection as they were not at the VFW. People in his club verified for me that he had them.

I asked Clay why the heck he was not at least letting the public (the people that even made it possible for him to have those games) play them and he turned white as a ghost and fumbled his words. He was caught off guard as he was not expecting the question. He stumbled around and settle on Tim Fife as being the only person with a game and took off to get away from the conversation. I am actually happy that Clay has these games as he is a great curator of pinball. I just wish he would put them in the public for play rather than stashing them away.

I am a bit miffed that he is unwilling to own up to having them, which could be useful to those with ongoing legal battles. Continuing here to lie that there were only 2 games (the Tim Fife one and the other black one) is sad, as many of us know there were 4 fully built prototype or preproduction games. We also know there are parts for the first 10 production games.

#10727 2 years ago
Quoted from HappyDayz:

Because nobody knows anything until they join Pinside. I can only assume you are about 5 years old since you joined less than 4 years ago?

troll alert or false account

#10728 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

I just wish he would put them in the public for play rather than stashing them away.
I am a bit miffed that he is unwilling to own up to having them, which could be useful to those with ongoing legal battles.

Owning one would be a huge, ugly can of worms. There are a lot of angry people.

Maybe once the case is settled people who lost money might not be as angry, maybe the owners might feel safe enough to allow them to see the light of day. But right now--the owners risk harassment, vandalism, and possible theft of the game.

#10730 2 years ago
Quoted from Whysnow:

Continuing here to lie that there were only 2 games (the Tim Fife one and the other black one) is sad, as many of us know there were 4 fully built prototype or preproduction games. We also know there are parts for the first 10 production games.

I'm curious now as to just how many of the 10 possible machines are out there...certainly nobody would ever admit to owning one.

#10731 2 years ago
Quoted from Perspex:

I'm curious now as to just how many of the 10 possible machines are out there...certainly nobody would ever admit to owning one.

Those would be worth a lot of money...with only ten in existence and given the history of the machine.

#10732 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Nah, it was the theme that sold people on the game. The coding seemed pretty good, in my view, I liked the rule set . . . but the theme'ing is what had people paying for the game.

Like I said, some people would have dropped out, but others would have stayed. Using AMH as an example, it took them a bit longer but they did sell all 150 of them. If Kevin came out right away, explained the situation and lost half of the people, he'd still have 125 machines to go, not too shabby.

The game was definitely complete enough that a lot of people would have stayed. Which is the frustrating part about this too - it seemed like this project got far enough to make a decent project, and that was completely squandered away by Kevin's own actions.

-2
#10733 2 years ago

There are two predators in existence. The one that Kevin was hauling to the show. And the other one Tim has. There are no other complete games or even close to complete games. There are some parts out there but that's about it. There is a chance that up to five predators could be made. But there are more major assemblies that are not available. The biggest block on the whole thing is the ramps. There was only two sets ever made and one is in Tim's game and the other one is in the original black predator. There's no others. So at this point in time there are no predators that can even exist, because there simply aren't enough parts to make one.

You also need software too. It's not like that's readily available either. And Milton stop lying about stuff. You don't know anything.

10
#10734 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

And Milton stop lying about stuff. You don't know anything.

Im not going to lie, I laughed out loud when I saw a second person call Hilton, Milton.

#10735 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Im not going to lie, I laughed out loud when I saw a second person call Hilton, Milton.

It's a thing now

16
#10736 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

There are two predators in existence. The one that Kevin was hauling to the show. And the other one Tim has. There are no other complete games or even close to complete games. There are some parts out there but that's about it. There is a chance that up to five predators could be made..... It's not like that's readily available either. And Milton stop lying about stuff. You don't know anything.

Your post reads like someone who's got a couple of things they're trying to hide...

20
#10737 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

Meaning when the guys from Texas went to the fox movie house to snoop around about the license, that's when it all fell apart.

Wow, we're back to this again? Victim blaming...shameful.

Only one man lied repeatedly, took money and didn't return it: Kevin.

#10738 2 years ago
Quoted from cfh:

If those guys from Texas never went to Fox Studios, I'm pretty sure that predators would be in production

I think Kevin has proven quite clearly he wasn't organized enough, funded enough, or had enough actual resources to get the game to production. From JJP, Spooky, DP, and others we've seen just how much it takes to get from prototype -> games shipping. Kevin didn't have it.. no way. I'd bank on that. Even WOOLY just barely scraped by and he's the closest to what the SKIT-B scale was.

Quoted from cfh:

It is my opinion Kevin had plans to make these games in full. Was he doing everything right? Clearly not. But when those Texas yahoos closed the net on him via Fox, that's when the whole thing went crashing down. and all his accounts/monies were frozen or refunded. It was like a tidal wave because everybody was asking for their money back. Kevin had spent a fair amount of the money In going to shows and moving his game back-and-forth between the shows. in the end there was nothing left and Kevin could not operate. He could barely buy lunch at McDonald's at that point.

The 'run on the bank' is of course real.. but there is no hope in playing the victim card here. The guy may have THOUGHT he was within his rights to do the project, but ignorance is not an excuse for incompetence when you are running a project with OTHER PEOPLE's money. This wasn't 'fund Kevin's pet project' with donations.. he took money for goods to be delivered. The fact he ran himself broke doing it.. ok.. but took people's money without due diligence or really any hope of delivering?? Criminally negligent IMO.

#10739 2 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

What???
At no point did Kevin ever have a signed license agreement with Fox to do Predator. A signed license agreement is a contract, printed out, signed by Fox and signed by Kevin

What he is trying to say is.. not that Kevin 'thought he had a license' (poor wording) but that Kevin THOUGHT he was within his rights to make the game within existing constraints/agreements.

Kevin really thought he had found some path that would be legit, without actually having a licensing arrangement.

Much like you are probably using some GPL licensed software on your computer right now, that you know you are 'licensed to use' because you are using it within the existing bounds of how the product was released.. yet you yourself do not have a specific licensing agreement. That's the **mindset** he had and what clay was likely trying to convey. Kevin thought as long as he did x, y, and z... he could do it legally.

Then when the scrutiny came on, he apparently just started making stuff up to try to make it sound like he had a regular licensing agreement. Why he didn't want to let people onto his plan.. who knows.. I think it looks like he just got sucked into the moment and wanted to play like the other kids.. and made up stories about 'oh yeah, it was tough... but we did it!'

But the charade was not very convincing... and the lies started to conflict and pile up. Then when someone looked behind the curtain.. he was caught in his web of lies. At that point, it was unrecoverable and the IP holders would scrutinize anything going forward.

#10740 2 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

troll alert or false account

bingo

#10741 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

Those would be worth a lot of money...with only ten in existence and given the history of the machine.

Meh.. rarity != desirability

Its still an incomplete game that represents the failure, deceit, and lies within the hobby. I think of it more as an albatross.. not a 'pre production' piece of pinball history.

#10742 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

What he is trying to say is.. not that Kevin 'thought he had a license' (poor wording) but that Kevin THOUGHT he was within his rights to make the game within existing constraints/agreements.
Kevin really thought he had found some path that would be legit, without actually having a licensing arrangement.

Yeah the path was the moron thought if he was a non-profit everything he did fell under fair use. There's stupid and then there's that. Monumental fucktard stupid, i.e. Kevin.

#10743 2 years ago
Quoted from Skins:

Yeah the path was the moron thought if he was a non-profit everything he did fell under fair use. There's stupid and then that. Monumental fucktard stupid, i.e. Kevin.

Yeah, the more details that came out... the worse his judgement was understood to be. That's why I throw the flag when clay thinks predator would have gotten done if Fox wasn't notified. This guy is too sketch to pull that kind of job off... no way. He'd have to rely on others, who would do their own diligence and eventually people would stay away from him.

#10744 2 years ago

Kevin claiming he had the license increased everyone's comfort level. If Fox would give him the license then surely it was safe to send him money for a product he got approved.... It's not just that the theme helped him get sales, but the assumption he was competent was in large part based on the false belief we had he went through due diligence with Fox...

#10745 2 years ago
Quoted from flynnibus:

Yeah, the more details that came out... the worse his judgement was understood to be. That's why I throw the flag when clay thinks predator would have gotten done if Fox wasn't notified. This guy is too sketch to pull that kind of job off... no way. He'd have to rely on others, who would do their own diligence and eventually people would stay away from him.

Building even just one custom game from scratch is an accomplishment in and of itself. Between that and the assurances that licensing was above-board, there was a level of comfort that the games would be produced, like Tiger said.

Poor decision making, poor money management, and all the lies were some of the things that made this whole thing collapse like a house of cards.

#10746 2 years ago

I received my notice in the mail today as well.

I hope the bankruptcy trustee really searches for what happened to all the money and at the very least we get answers about what happened to the PayPal account (I don't believe the money was all in there and got consumed by credit chargebacks as some seem to believe).

#10747 2 years ago
Quoted from ForceFlow:

Building even just one custom game from scratch is an accomplishment in and of itself. Between that and the assurances that licensing was above-board, there was a level of comfort that the games would be produced, like Tiger said.

Sure it's an accomplishment - but having a custom game is far from having a pinball company. I feel we are hopping around a bit.. you and Tiger are referring to the sentiment at the time of the ordering... where clay's statement was made with the benefit of hindsight and knowledge of all of Kevin's choices and history.

At the time, most people had not been exposed to the complexity of getting a game to production. Hopefully now with all the history people have seen through projects like TBL, JJP, JPOP, and more.... they realize having the prototype is not the final turn.. but just the opening leg of the race

Look at TBL, they basically redid the machine to make it production-ready. JJP had industry veterans and professional engineers/designers, and still struggled to get games into actual production. Spooky is the only real homegrown shop that has actually gotten to the finish line.

Gene's project was probably the closest to Skit-B's vision.. and even that had to be saved and was a financial sinkhole.

People were way to eager to get the next 'unobtainium' collectors pin.. and predator and JPOP offered ways to get there and people rushed in.

It's like with Stern's current releases... there is no such thing as 'must buy it early, or I won't get it'... yet people still flock in the hundreds to buy the game without ever playing it.

#10748 2 years ago
Quoted from TigerLaw:

(I don't believe the money was all in there and got consumed by credit chargebacks as some seem to believe).

That wouldn't make sense, honestly. If you do a chargeback on, let's say, $4000, there is a flat fee that the credit card company charges you - the last time I had it happen to my business, it was I believe $26. That's it.

Even if it was $40, then we'd only be missing two and a half pinball machines worth of money, not the vast majority of machines like we are. It is definitely interesting that none of this money is accounted for anywhere, and seemingly everything that was purchased for it has disappeared. Otherwise, where are the cabinets and stuff like that? Even if five games exist and some are in people's possession as rumored, we'd be missing a relatively small amount in that case - I'm guessing like $50k-ish. Which would have been recouped by the people that he sold those games too. Seems like there is WAY more than that missing...

#10749 2 years ago
Quoted from goatdan:

That wouldn't make sense, honestly. If you do a chargeback on, let's say, $4000, there is a flat fee that the credit card company charges you - the last time I had it happen to my business, it was I believe $26. That's it.
Even if it was $40, then we'd only be missing two and a half pinball machines worth of money, not the vast majority of machines like we are. It is definitely interesting that none of this money is accounted for anywhere, and seemingly everything that was purchased for it has disappeared. Otherwise, where are the cabinets and stuff like that? Even if five games exist and some are in people's possession as rumored, we'd be missing a relatively small amount in that case - I'm guessing like $50k-ish. Which would have been recouped by the people that he sold those games too. Seems like there is WAY more than that missing...

As I said earlier, a forensic accountant would have a field day with this.

I still say the IRS should get a hold of him. He'll never be able to pay the back taxes...and that never goes away.

#10750 2 years ago

Never quit chasing the scum. EVER!

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