Duck Hunt
Skit-B Pinball, 2013
Experts of Dangerous
Skit-B Pinball, 2014
Predator
Skit-B Pinball, 2013
Sonic: The Hedgehog
Skit-B Pinball, 2013
Starfox
Skit-B Pinball, 2013You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider robt.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Quoted from maddog14:So, I'm all jazzed for the latest and greatest updates.
So whats new since I left the other thread? Anything?
Go team SkitB!
I've heard that Skit-B is going to be posting in this new "official" thread very soon in order to put all of this speculation to rest once and for all!
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:That has nothing on the Dutch pinball TBL presentation. Just saying
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:Im gonna go out on a limb and guess 10, once they get rolling though it will maybe double per month. If not its all good as long as they keep cranking them out.
Who is making them?
I think Ben Heck said that Spooky was able to make 2 AMH's per week. I wonder if Skit-B could do that many? Are they planning on shipping them as soon as the first ones are made? Or will they wait until they have a batch of 10 or so before shipping any of them?
Quoted from Whysnow:nice!
I see mine somewhere in that picture
You better hope so since you've only got 6 weeks to get your pin if you want to win your bet!
Quoted from badbilly27:Update: Just sent another email to Skit B support tonight as I have still not received a reply (9 days running).
I'm sure it's an honest oversight. Skit-B has really proven themselves to be excellent communicators!
Quoted from badbilly27:Update: Nov 11th last communication from Skit B and today is Nov 23rd. Sent 5 emails in between those dates. Just wow.
That's pathetic
Quoted from DCFAN:People can say all they want about the way we Pinheads give these home brew companies a hard time about communication and that it will lead to no new and diverse games, but who wants or needs it if they are going to disrespect the customer this much.
Besides, there seems to be plenty of different flavors to choose from recently.
Couldn't agree more.
What a joke.
Quoted from lowepg:Don't expect things to improve.... why?
Look no further than 2 posts above.... folks are bragging about their intention to "stick it out" no matter how poorly they are treated as paying customers.
With enough folks that that, why bother to go to all the trouble of having decent customer service?
PT Barnum is smiling....
The irony about people saying that they are sticking it out is that they don't have a choice at this point anyway.
Believe me, SkitB isn't freely giving out refunds to people who are paid in full if they ask.
Quoted from Whysnow:Afterall you were the one rah rahhing it on, so you should be willing to also say when you don't have any info against it despite the digging by "your friends" (I still can't believe a bunch of whiny pinheads actually contacted FOX to inquire about the license > I actually chuckle a little thinking about how odd that is and how it must have all went down).
What the hell are you talking about?
Reality check time Hilton.
What in the world is wrong with pinheads wanting to go directly to the source to attempt to find out if in fact SkitB has the full license for Predator? Especially considering all the discussion and speculation surrounding the issue?!
If in fact someone was able to get a clear and direct answer from Fox, that would have put this issue to bed once and for all. Isn't that something that you (supposedly) want?? Perhaps not, since you are calling anyone who wanted an answer from Fox "whiny pinheads" and think about how "odd that is and how it must have went down".
The irony is that the thing that is odd is the fact that you would even think that way. If Jared or any other Pinsider had contacted Fox and found out that SkitB did indeed have the full license for Predator and posted that info here, they would have been your hero.
Odd indeed.
Quoted from Whysnow:I find it pretty silly for someone to go out of their way to contact Fox (especially when they are not a preorder person and just looking for more attention) to inquire about the license.
And I find it completely silly that you think it is silly for any pinhead to contact Fox about this issue.
An issue that has taken up 90% of all Predator discussion over the last couple of months.
I find it very strange that you would feel this way. You are obviously letting your personal feelings about Jared cloud your judgment on this issue.
There is nothing at all strange, odd, or silly about someone wanting to get a straight answer from Fox.
Quoted from fastpinball:If I were Fox I wouldn't comment on the business arrangements I had with individuals who were not a party the agreement.
And they probably wouldn't.
But that's beside the point. The point is that there is nothing wrong, strange, or odd about a pinhead asking for that information in order to try and put the issue to rest once and for all.
Quoted from rommy:https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-few-words-from-skit-b-pinball
In your face haters and those with "terrible information" !!!
Summary:
Making pinball machines is hard. There are going to be more delays in making the pin that shall not be named. I didn't intend to turn my back on Pinside, but I am.
Quoted from Whysnow:Translation = oh Pinside... this is why we can't have nice things
Some people will never be happy.
Angry mob of non-buyers >"WE WANT communication!"
Kevin > " Hi folks, I am sorry for the poor communication. I planned to have games out by now that would blow your socks off, but have hit delays that were not planned for. I apollogize, but plan to have more communication going forward and share more often with owners"
Angry mob >> "That is not the communication we wanted!" "Arrggghhhh" "We need more drama!"
I appreciate the sentiment expressed here (I really do) but you have to admit that it is very strange that he once again intentionally refused to type the word P R E D A T O R once in that very long post.
Shouldn't the thread title have been "A Few Words About Predator Pinball"?
Quoted from Nibbles:^For as much as you post that image BobT, you might have to start paying the photographer royalties
What makes you think that I didn't take that picture? 
Quoted from rommy:Wow. Are you attacking me? Just for wanting a pinball machine? Sheesh, and I thought we were friends...
Attacking you? By posting a funny picture? It was just a joke Rommy. It's all good.
Quoted from playernumber4:Well, he can work on building games or he can hang out on the computer all day answering stupid questions and apologizing while everything comes to a standstill.
Which option does everyone prefer?
Clearly a false choice that you fabricated there.
Quoted from NinJaBooT:Hey Chicken Little, this has been put to rest already! The licence doesn't allow certain forms of advertising. Get over it
It was?
When?
I must have missed it. Please provide the link. Or perhaps one of the 4 people who gave you a thumbs up for this can provide the link on your behalf since they agree that "the license doesn't allow certain forms of advertising".
Quoted from Whysnow:It is out in the ether somewhere, but I sure as hell dont care to dig for it.
Right. Because it doesn't exist.
Quoted from Whysnow:Actually it is out there Rob.
Prove me wrong then. Who said it? Another Pinsider who was speculating?
If you are too lazy to do it, I'm sure one of the 4 people who gave his post a thumbs up would be happy to step up to the plate and do it for you.
And if someone does, I will apologize profusely, and admit that I'm a big boob!
Quoted from NinJaBooT:Im pretty sure its speculation at this point though I sense this is the case. I may have been outta context saying it was confirmed. My bad.
That's exactly how I remember it. Lots of discussion, and people speculating that there was something to that effect in the licensing agreement. But this was never confirmed, and to me it doesn't make sense. Why would the licenser not want them to advertise the pin as much as possible?
Quoted from Xerico:The link below is the post made by Aaron of Fast Pinball. If you believe Aaron has seen Skit-B's Predator licensing agreement, then this post will satisfy your query regarding the question "Why doesn't Skit-B mention Predator on their bi-weekly update, website or other social media?". It would also influence you to apologize and admit that you are a big boob.
If you do not believe that Aaron has seen Skit-B's licensing agreement for Predator, then this post does not prove a thing and you still have doubts regarding the status of the license so you will not be apologizing at all.
Link: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/a-few-words-from-skit-b-pinball/page/6#post-2110052
For those who prefer not to click a link, here is the post from the thread:
"I thought Kevin would hit that one more directly in the email, since the licensing topic is a hot one with all the DP stuff going on. Pretty simple. Licensing says you cannot promote the IP online, social media, in marketing, etc. You get what you pay for. Since it was a limited run that was sold out, paying for the opportunity to promote as such would have been a waste of money.
Aaron
FAST Pinball"
Personally, I believe that Aaron has seen the Predator Licensing Agreement.
Marcus
Thanks Marcus.
This does come close enough to make me admit that I'm a big boob!!
Would be nice if Aaron could simply confirm whether he has actually seen the licensing agreement himself, but I think that is what he implied in his post.
Again, in case it was missed, I AM A BIG BOOB!
Quoted from Mr68:Hey, I like big boobs. Next time choose an appropriate section of anatomy for your admission.
Was that a post that I should have self tilted?
Quoted from Whysnow:quoted for fun
You could have had even more fun with it if you were the one who took the time to find the quoted post!
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Have to agree. In on a few titles but glad to wrap that up and just stay away from now on.
Come on Dave. We've heard this from you a million times. Nobody is buying it anymore!
You were in on TBL, then you were out, then you were back in. You were in on Full Throttle, then you were out, then you were back in. Can't keep track of all of them...were you in and out on Alien too? MMr?
But I'm sure it will be different *this* time!
Quoted from underlord:Preorder with a distributor. Say you want an LE. Tron. You order with distro, get pin, btw, has single coin mech. Don't like it? Too bad.
Say you want TWD. Get it, as it's the LE or Pro. Told point blank no premiums, ever. Then bam! Month later preemies being built. THAT preorder model.
That's not a Stern preorder model.
That's your distributors preorder model.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:It's a half-assed email. It would have been better to not send anything at all. It leaves most of us to draw our own conclusions and initiate panic without any explanation of wtf he is talking about. So someone called Fox maybe?
....
The question I ask about this whole deal is how could someone besides Kevin sabotage this machine from being built? It sounds like an excuse. If you have a license to build "Predator" what could someone on the outside do to compromise the operation?
Bingo.
If there is no problem with the license, someone "calling Fox" is completely meaningless.
Quoted from ccotenj:it really is that simple, isn't it? collect money, have responsibility for that money...
blame everyone except the person who took the money... yea, that'll work...
It's some dude in Texas fault.
And that big evil company Fox.
Quoted from Whysnow:Anyone that went out of their way to contact Fox, send emails unsolicited to Preorder people attempting to instill fear, posted with the main purpose of trying to kill Predator, the crew from Tx that have been behind much of this witch hunt...
Those people have little credibility
Why?
Why shouldn't people have gone "out of their way to contact Fox" to find out if Skit-B had a valid license for Predator given what's been going on for God knows how long now?? Are you freaking serious?
And what is wrong with someone sending emails to Predator owners if they felt that they had some information that would lead them to believe that Skit-B didn't have the Predator license? Those people could take that information and do with it what they like, including, if they believed it enough, ask for a refund sooner rather than later.
What does any of that have to do with credibility?
And your comments regarding PBN losing credibility actually makes you lose credibility.
So the logic here is that if PBN was in any way doing some investigative reporting to see if Skit-B actually had the Predator license from Fox, they have LOST ALL CREDIBILITY!!!!?
Quoted from ccotenj:someone should ask him to provide a copy of his original licensing agreement...
That suggestion was made a long time ago. It was never provided. If I remember correctly, DP provided a copy of their licensing approval for TBL, so it can be done.
Quoted from Aurich:I can't remember if they actually provided anything from the license, but they did provide a copy of the Universal press release.
Ok, so no specifics, but at least some confirmation from the license holder that the license was approved for the pin.
Quoted from Aurich:Since I did a summary last time, I'll summarize again:
"I'm sorry yesterday's email was confusing. I wasn't trying to tell you the project is dead. I'm simply trying to leave you confused still, by making my followup email just as strangely vague as the first one you got that I'm apologizing for."
Seriously, I don't understand what the hell Kevin is doing. Either just shut up or say something, but being vague is the worst possible option, because it just keeps people stirred up and worrying without actually reassuring them.
I've seen the email and this is spot on.
Quoted from lowepg:Making pinball machines is hard.
Especially if you don't have the license.
Quoted from urbanledge:If you loose money its your own fault and no body elses.
That's right! It's *always* the victims fault!
And it's "lose", loser.
Quoted from C2CPinball:Deleted post
I really enjoyed listening to your podcast after the TBL stuff went down, so if you have something to add here I think a lot of us would like to hear it.
Quoted from spfxted:OK...HERE WE GO!
I JUST got finished speaking with Kevin. I asked ALL the hard questions. Here is a quick summeryYES, the license is fine.
...
YES, jackwads are calling FOX.
If the license is fine there is zero reason for that last sentence.
Quoted from Half_Life:C'mon Rob, for all that is good, please don't take a piss on the one ray of Sunshine that has come our (the pre-order folks) way. I appreciate your critical eye but can you let this one slide, just a wee bit? Just this once, ok?
Sorry Phil, I didn't think it was exactly in poor taste....certainly not worthy of accusing me of pissing on the one ray of Sunshine (certainly wasn't my intent)...I thought it was pointing out a fairly obvious contradiction. But you are right, it probably wasn't necessary.
You guys definitely deserve some good news! Hopefully you will get some concrete information from Kevin in the next few weeks which will result in satisfaction for all.
Quoted from Half_Life:Thanks Rob. I forgot to add the smiley face. Like I said, I appreciate your critical eye. You call it like you see it. Like most on here, I'm tired of the drama and just want "real" answers. No more supposition, no more innuendo, no more BS. Either tell me I'm getting my machine or tell me I've lost my money so I can move on.
I owe you a beer!
No. I owe you one! Seriously Phil, if you are ever in SoCal please send me a note, and we can meet up at Lake Alice Trading Co. for some beer and pinball! 
Quoted from jlm33:OK, thought about it, Ready to bet $20 you will get Predator first.
Loser donates that amount to Pinside. Hopefully this year...
Predator before Alien? Really?
Quoted from woodworker:So I will flip your comment around and see how you like it: Pinside doesn't owe Kevin/Skit-B jack shit. If you don't like the threads here, go away. Start your own forum, and see how much fun it is to run one. Stop trying to gaslight everybody here and lumping them into this big pile that you label "doom and gloom" because you are distorting reality.
Whysnow also seems to love throwing the word "hater" around a lot.
Quoted from Chambahz:Yeah, when the communication stops, it's just plain rude, eh?
That's gonna leave a mark.
Quoted from sensfreak:People may decide to purchase one if they see them finally rolling off the production line and in basements.
What does that have to do with the number of people currently on a waiting list?
Quoted from RobT:I really enjoyed listening to your podcast after the TBL stuff went down, so if you have something to add here I think a lot of us would like to hear it.
As pointed out above, Nate at Coast to Coast Pinball has weighed in:
I very highly recommend that everyone listen to this.
Very well done.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:The cheerleaders can ease up on those trying to help and the negatives could be nicer in trying to share what they see from a removed perspective with less of an attack theme.
Well said Dave, and this seems to be what Nate absolutely excels at.
Quoted from lowepg:I think Sony would go after him for building them
That Sony is one aggressive company! They even go after people who violate *other* studios licenses!
Quoted from Toads:Skit b newsletter #01
" I say this kind of stuff all the time, but there's one company that deserves a huge "plug" that doesn't come up very often but is at the heart of everything we do and how it relates to you all, and that is PayPal. I know, I know, now I'm essentially giving a plug for the bank, but I promise it is relative (again, especially if you hadn't caught up with us on the forums a few weeks ago). While we're on the unfortunate subject of potentially unethical opportunities, I'd like to take a moment to remind everyone that your investments are safe. Through the conventions that we've worked through with PayPal, not only do you get the inherent internet benefit of buying pinball in your underwear (raise your hand if you've bought pinball in your underwear before the internet...anyone?), but it comes with monumental security benefits that guarantee that, no matter what happens, your investment is never at any kind of risk. They're taking a big risk on us that they never had to take, and for that they deserve some sincere appreciation."
And I'm sure that PayPal confirmed all of this in writing as well. Right?
Quoted from The_Dude_Abides:Just a decision I made sorry you don't care for it. I've done the best I can to keep people up to date on this project. When an update actually provides content regarding the projects progress happens I will update it as soon as I get a chance. Kind of tough to keep motivated to do this type of thing in the future when the main feedback are complaints about stuff like this. I understand it's the nature of the online community but it gets to be a bit much at times. Can't we let little things like this go and just understand someone is doing the best they can to help the community out (instead of nit picking every detail)?
No reason to act like it's complicated.
Just post Kevin's emails in that thread. Pretty unlikely anyone would be upset if you did. The opposite (not posting them there) is not true (as can be seen by the feedback here).
Quoted from chessiv:On a real discussion point, who would be willing to accept the same machine without the license? I'm thinking that's where this will end up.
Agree completely.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:It bugs me (and I'm sure yourself as well Aurich) that the term 'Photoshop' is the genericised term for "crappy photograph/screengrab art".
Anyone who thinks "hand-drawn" art isn't put into the modern digital realm and "Photoshopped" is delusional. The TBL playfield, despite being "hand-drawn", was somehow magically rearranged. Hope they didn't "Photoshop" it and instead redrew the whole playfield by hand on a piece of paper...
Photoshop isn't responsible for crappy art. It's like blaming the company who makes paints because everything I paint looks like a sneeze (at best). At least it's hand-drawn though...
/arguing semantics off
It really is sad that there is such a misconception about photoshop.
Many people think that if you put an image through photoshop, you have <gasp> manipulated the image! Of course the irony is that the "original image" has already been altered from reality when the digital sensor captured the image, and different sensors will interpret the image differently.
Every single photograph I take goes through photoshop before I post it on my Flickr account. So I guess all my photos are technically "photoshopped"!
Yellowstone3.jpgQuoted from nephasth:Let's talk for a second about licensing. We are very aware of the emails and PM's circulating around claiming we never had the licensing support to sell machines using the Predator IP. In our attempts to gather showable documents to prove this wrong, we learned that our licensing deal really wasn't what we thought it was. Thankfully, with the understanding folks who control said IP and the help of a lifelong family friend, these hurdles are quickly being overcome. Again, what does this mean for you, the owners? More fluent updates on progress, the addition of licensed images to our website and communications, the return of the gameplay videos(!), and much more.
Wait.
So you mean that the removal of the Predator images and videos was *not* because they were redesigning the website like he claimed before?
Quoted from nephasth:In short, I've pretty much done everything wrong during this whole process and you guys are still here.
Yeah....because you've got their money, jackass.
Quoted from benheck:I can confirm that Spooky Pinball is not building these. Chuck did some PF's months ago, hasn't heard boo since.
Pretty obvious to me that it would be JJP given their agreement to build the second game from Skit-B (which will never happen now anyway).
Quoted from YKpinballer:Kevin should sell the company to Stern or JJP and they just put this license into mass production with a re-design.
Sell the company? Is this serious?
Who would buy a "company" that is in the situation that Skit-B is in? To commit business suicide?
fastpinball said:
Seriously man, you have no idea what you are talking about re: the licensing. Why keep stirring things up with "I think..." comments like this? You want to tell people "everyone is going to get screwed! be ready for my 'i told you so!'" or "maybe things are all fine and what we were told is true. Cant wait for the owners to get their games!" That's like me saying "you might get in a car crash on the way home tonight! so be ready for my 'i told you so'" while also saying, "I am sure you will get home just fine."
Has it ever occurred to you (or many others) that the terms of the licensing agreement may restrict where, how and in what manner the Predator IP can be used in promotion of the game and the company making the game? Do you know anything about or have you had any experience with the various terms used in IP licensing? Since Skit-B has sold out the # of games they are allowed to make, why risk upsetting the IP holders by possibly infringing on the terms of a licensing agreement? It's easier to just pull videos floating around and the unnecessary content from the website so they can focus on more important tasks at hand and make the IP holder feel good about things at the same time.
These Predator threads are getting horrible. Can we all just say it together and agree to something we all know? Kevin/Skit-B are not the best communicators. Kevin is a friend and I know he knows this and I also know he is making efforts to improve this fact. But with only so many hours in the day, the priorities tend towards the tasks related to making the games and after that, its time with family. That's about it.
I do know the psychological effect that threads like this can have on you when you are working as hard as you can on something. How eager would you be to pull up pinside.com forums after an exhausting day and read these shit fiesta threads? So for anyone who feels that they need to speak up for "the benefit of all buyers" or "for the pinball community" or because "someone needs to say it" ask yourself if it will do more harm than good. Or whether or not it is something that should be addressed with Kevin/Skit-B directly vs. in a forum.
Skit-B had a whole lot of support (and really still does from many) in the early "fun" stages of starting a pinball company and making their first game. When the weight of the endeavor kicked in and it got harder, that is when the real support and encouragement is needed. Not everyone knows how to ask for help or knows what kind of help they need right away. But if you felt compelled to pre-order a game to give Kevin/Skit-B a shot at doing something cool in pinball, then I ask you all to use the same judgement in whether or not to give Kevin the benefit of the doubt when asking questions like "is this a scam?" or "is there REALLY a license???" etc etc.
I support Kevin as a friend, as an entrepreneur and as someone who wants to create something cool. I give that support because others have given it to me in the past and because you pay that shit forward.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Quoted from fastpinball:If I were Fox I wouldn't comment on the business arrangements I had with individuals who were not a party the agreement. That is just bad business. If someone contacted FAST to ask how much hardware a company ordered from us, even if it was an attempt to "clear up rumors" or some other noble effort, I would politely decline to comment.
That aside, the license topic was put to bed in the other horrible Skit-B thread. I am friends with Kevin. I have had the terms of the agreement explained to me. They are in order. So let's drop it.
These threads are not going to weed out any big conspiracy. They are only drama. I do think Kevin should post a "hey guys, things are fine. Busy building pinball!" message. But really, that would probably calm people down for a couple days before someone sits up the pot again.
If you don't like the way things are going, bail out. If you don't like the waiting game of a pre-order, then don't do it again. If you are stoked to support and indie pinball company in their first game, then rock on.
There are lessons learned all over the place here and I hope things improve on the communication front. This is easier for me to not stress communication because a) I don't have $ in on a Predator and b) I talk to Kevin regularly. But I do know the guy is working hard doing the best he can right now.
I am done reading these posts. They are stuck in a loop and generating nothing but ill will.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I thought Kevin would hit that one more directly in the email, since the licensing topic is a hot one with all the DP stuff going on. Pretty simple. Licensing says you cannot promote the IP online, social media, in marketing, etc. You get what you pay for. Since it was a limited run that was sold out, paying for the opportunity to promote as such would have been a waste of money.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
I would also respectfully ask to revoke my "boob" status that I posted here in response to a post by Marcus "explaining" the license issue based on posts from Aaron at FAST:
Quoted from RobT:Thanks Marcus.
This does come close enough to make me admit that I'm a big boob!!
Would be nice if Aaron could simply confirm whether he has actually seen the licensing agreement himself, but I think that is what he implied in his post.
Again, in case it was missed, I AM A BIG BOOB!
Quoted from Aurich:Rob, part of the reason I'd ask for a refund is that Kevin was obviously lying even to his close friends and business partners. Aaron was reporting in good faith what he was told, and he got thrown under the bus by passing along lies without knowing it.
How are you going to trust that guy going forward?
Pinheads are pretty forgiving if you're just straight up with them. But if you lie and hide the truth it's hard to ever go back.
The issue/problem that I have with the posts made by Aaron/FAST is that what he said, and the way he said it, was not on the basis of relying on what he was told by Kevin.
I will let others interpret those posts for themselves, but for me, those posts come across as very strong and definitive statements that clearly imply personal knowledge of the facts. That obviously wasn't the case. So for me personally, Aaron takes a bit of a hit in the credibility department as well.
Sorry.
Quoted from fastpinball:I am disappointed in the fact that I was mislead. More specifically, that my assumptions were not corrected. Hindsight being what it is, I regret not being more aggressive on the Predator topic with Kevin sooner. Maybe then I could have offered real help in correcting the problems based on the facts and not speaking in defense based on my uncorrected assumptions.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Sometimes it's hard to see posts that are critical of someone that you consider a friend without feeling a strong need to defend them and it sounds like that's largely what happened here.
You did indicate in your prior post that you considered Kevin a friend, so I think some of us did see the potential for bias there.
Learning experience...and time to move on.
Quoted from vid1900:But remember that licenses are only good for a short while, and then you have to renegotiate if you want to keep them active.
Remember that any artwork has to be approved (Google how many Demolition Man translights got rejected before Snipes signed off on his likeness).
Remember that even if a license grants you the use of "sounds" from a movie, music is licensed separately. You are not going to get Little Richard for free.
Remember that a movie license does not necessarily allow you to put logos and artwork all over your website or T-shirts.
So...you're saying that Kevin has a terrible memory?
Quoted from frolic:Kevin is also not in a good negotiating position. They knew he collected hundreds of thousands of dollars already from selling their property.
He is in the worst negotiating position possible if he had no license at all. But even if he had one, just not the one "he thought" (lol), he's still in a terrible position, especially if he continued to ask for payments after Fox had sent a C&D letter (if that's what happened). Cash to Fox, and probably lots of it, is the only way they can make this work. Is there enough money to appease Fox for violation of their IP?
Quoted from Whysnow:It appears I was wrong about the liscensing not having any problems, but that is nothing to be embarrassed about. Oops, I was wrong. Sorry I trusted someone whom I still think is a good pinhead just in over his head currently.
Actually given the huge mountain of evidence indicating a problem with the license existed, I think your strenuous claims of there being nothing wrong with the license is something that you should be hugely embarrassed about.
Quoted from gweempose:You forgot about option number four:
Kevin abandons the project, apologizes profusely, gives everyone a full refund, and eats all the losses.
Pretty much what Nate recommends that he should do in his podcast, other than people probably won't get a full refund.
Quoted from Whysnow:Do people think a bunch of cash is mysteriously gone?
Why don't you ask all the people who have requested refunds and have heard nothing but crickets what they think?
Kevin keeps saying that all who have requested a refund will surely get one...but nobody has.
Actions...speak louder than words.
Quoted from dgoett:Hard to keep up with all that's being said, but I can confirm that Jack [JJP] nor spooky has been contacted to assemble "the game". Can we still even say Predator?
We all know there's no way in Hell Stern would do it. So who's left? More smoke and mirrors?
It's obvious: Dutch Pinball to the rescue!
Quoted from sd_tom:Ugh I hope not honestly, they just dug out of drama.. However it would somewhat make sense:
- they are already doing CM, so they could use their relationship there to subcontract that out after TBL machines.
- they are already talking to Roger and getting smarter about licenses; required here.
- Predator is using proc right? So is DP so they will have experience (the only experience?) Using them in a production run.
If the people (DP or whoever) that was in negotiations with were also in the dark about license problems (Kevin trying to compartmentalize his problems) I imagine if they've seen the email they are rethinking anyways. And if that falls through, maybe that'll force his hand to make the right call and refund everyone what he can.
Uh. You do realize I was being sarcastic, right?
It would not make much sense to make Predator overseas and ship them to the states. Never mind the fact that DP is not an "experienced pinball manufacturer" (or words to that effect) that was referenced in Kevin's email.
Quoted from DevilsTuner:One thing I can say is I HOPE PEOPLE CAN NOW APPRECIATE someone like Roger Sharpe who spent his carrier giving us cool IP's to work with. Something like what is happening here would get a major company in huge issues.
Here's the irony: the rumor is that Kevin's father is good friends with Roger Sharpe.
If that true, you really have to wonder how the hell Kevin could f*ck up a license thing so badly? I mean just some simple advice on things to check and be sure of probably could have gone a long way here.
Quoted from lowepg:I'd start with a few softball questions:
1. Kevin, did you received a cease and desist from Fox? Yes or No?
2. When you continually stated the license was "OK" would you now say those statements were a lie, ignorance or both?
3. Please explain the "special arrangement" you boasted about with paypal?
4. As a followup, when exactly can folks who've asked for refunds (dating back to January) expect a reply email and more importantly, their money?
5. Tell us more about that nonprofit status you are enjoying?
Then, I guess I'd want to move into the tougher questions....
Can one of Kevin's friends send this to him? He can simply answer each one of these questions in one of his email updates since that seems to be his modus operandi.
These are the questions that people want answers to. Of course, none of them are more important than question #4.
Quoted from lowepg:what's the guesstimate on labor to assemble a pin? 16-man hour? less? more?
16 man hours to assemble a pin? I'd think it would be much higher than that. Does that include populating the playfield?
Quoted from Asylum:Seems like a bit of abuse of power to me...
No offense but there are a bunch of us that have money in on this and have been quietly staying out of the current conversations. We come here to see what the latest is and its not been good. I also have been very quietly trying to get a refund for over a month with nothing but bullshit generalized email responses from Kevin. With all do respect... you should be more concerned about us fellow pinsiders who have been taken advantage of than worried about what people post regarding Kevin and what is free public information on the world wide web.You should be ejected from this thread just for making this careless comment... people have been requesting refunds for months.
You ask to be a moderator and Robin decided you were worthy of this position. I will not second guess that decision... however with your position comes responsibility and that responsibility is to be objective to both sides of a situation/issue - your comments heavily favor Kevin. You fail to acknowledge the lack of detailed communication from Kevin to those of us who have invested substantial monies based on his promises/guarantees.
I can't believe an owner was ejected from this thread based on this post. He may have violated the forum rules for questioning a moderator, but considering what these guys are going through, I think more leeway is definitely in order here. I think a warning would be more than sufficient.
Quoted from PinChili:I think someone said earlier it's only a bug right now. It's not an actual eject, it's just a warning (the message reads wrong.) Because we've seen the same message on other posts and those folks are still in the thread.
I've spoken to Asylum and he has been ejected from the thread.
Quoted from YKpinballer:Allow me to translate:
Kevin chats with Aaron about how toxic pinside is.
Kevin gives zero 'fudges' about what is happening on pinside, and hasn't changed what he's doing despite the shitstorm
Don't try to contact Kevin, he isn't going to talk to you anyway
Since Kevin's my friend, I'm going to overlook his fraudulent activity and back him up
Kevin hasn't decided whether to tell all you guys the truth or not. He also hasn't decided whether he will give anybody refunds.
Kevin sent me to pinside to tell you he isn't coming whether you like it or not and give you a big middle finger. Hopefully all you customers will go quiet for a few more weeks now.
Thanks Aaron, thought i'd help you out as I am educated in bullshitting 101.
Well...that's pretty much one of the most epic posts in this entire thread.
AND THAT'S SAYING SOMETHING!!!
Quoted from loren3233:I am with you on this Rob.
Pathetic that Asylum was ejected for voicing an opinion in a professional manner, but a moderator can reply on this thread, breaking the public forum rules when it should have been posted in a moderator feedback thread.
Let's drop this discussion as 1) it's been resolved and Asylum's eject has been reversed (or it was temporary) 2) further discussions about moderator actions are not for public discussion and violate forum rules... I don't want you (or me) to be ejected either.
Again, it was resolved.
Quoted from absocountry2:The weekend is here so we should not expect any information from SkitB until Monday
Bwhahhahahahahahaha!!!!!!!
Tears are flowing down my face after reading that one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yes, I'm sure that Kevin will respond just as soon as the weekend is over!
The guy really deserves to have a nice relaxing weekend after all his hard work in responding to everyone's emails on a personal basis.
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quoted from frolic:The light being shown on everything is not because of Kevin. It is because of this thread. Most recently, it was because Kevin sent out a mass email saying he was sitting at his computer responding to everyone. Because of the activity in this thread, that was exposed as another lie.
If everyone took the weekend off, and gave Kevin more time to do whatever it is that he's doing, none of the true story would be bubbling to the surface as it has.
The vigilante justice isn't the right path, but asking tough questions and analyzing the information that is available is exactly what should be going on here.
And it should be an example of why the dumb phrase of "if you got no skin in the game, why do you care?" should never be uttered again.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:The issue with that Rob is separating those that care and those that just want to flame every chance. I know they are two different people. But again its hard to tell and hard to deal with as someone in on a game.
The key to that statement is "care". There are core folks here who really do care.
I don't think it's that hard Dave. Flaming/trolling is usually fairly obvious.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Without question you shouted down those who didn't share your rose colored views. You would stalk and crusade against those who asked tough analytical questions, those people turned out to be right (apparently) but you delayed the discussion basically single handedly. It was impressive really in its own way.
I was a victim of his abuse!
Quoted from vid1900:A scam to rip the clients off, or to rip FOX off?
If he did have a license, would everybody have a game right now?
If he didn't have a license, it would be a scam ripping both Fox and the owners off, since there is no way pins were going to be made and sold without a license.
Quoted from vid1900:Kev may be naive, but I'm sure he is not dumb enough to hand off the money he is going to need for his defense in federal court.
Huh?
So you are suggesting he withhold peoples money for his personal defense so he can pay his lawyers?
I'm thinking he would be in a better position if he refunds all the money vs keeping it. This should be obvious.
Quoted from playboywillis:What happens if he files for bankruptcy?
Everyone gets in line to get what's left.
Quoted from vid1900:His federal court battle with FOX will bankrupt him completely - that is for his willful copyright infringement.
Fox does not care about any investors, or any refunds on pinball machines.
I don't care what Fox cares about.
What you are suggesting simply compounds his problems. If he refunds all the money, he has eliminated his main problem. Having one problem (Fox) is better than two (potential fraud allegations by more than 200 people).
Quoted from vid1900:If he refunds the money, he won't have the money for his defense in federal court against Fox.
So?
You don't seem to understand: keeping the money will make it *worse* for him. Those lawyers that he pays with money he got from Predator buyers won't be able to help him much if he doesn't refund the money, so what's the point of keeping money to pay lawyers if he's going to lose anyway?
By keeping the money he opens himself up to what could be much more serious than any lawsuit that Fox brings. Fox can only sue him on a civil basis. Keeping the money opens Kevin up to potential criminal charges, including wire fraud.
Keeping the money is a horrible idea, even from Kevin's point of view (this assumes there is no lawsuit or restraining order filed at this point).
Quoted from vid1900:Like I said, whoever brought it to Fox's attention, totally killed the chances of a refund for everyone else.
Yeah, cuz I'm sure that Kevin was right on the edge of issuing refunds to everyone right before Fox found out about it.
Quoted from vid1900:You will see.
It is two separate things.
Vid....that is exactly my point!
In fact, the more I think about it, it could be three separate things: 1) Fox IP issues 2) Wirefraud/criminal proceedings 3) Civil lawsuit(s) by people who gave money to Kevin for Predator.
If he gives the money back, he eliminates 2 of the 3.
Keeping the money makes zero sense from Kevin's standpoint. It makes things worse. Lawyer or no lawyer.
Quoted from vid1900:The Fox case is supposedly already filed. That means Kevin will need to retain a mighty expensive legal team for that case first.
All the money will go into the toilet for that, Kevin will probably have to declare bankruptcy.
Much better to declare bankruptcy after giving the money back and avoiding potential criminal charges.
Quoted from vid1900:You've see the house that Kevin lives in.
Even if he sells it, he won't have enough cash to pay for his federal trial.
Where do you think he is going to get the money for his defense?
I don't care. You are the one who said that he would have to file bankruptcy anyway. You file bankruptcy, you get to keep your house! And...avoid potential wire fraud charges and stay out of jail.
Bankruptcy is not that big of a deal, especially considering the alternatives.
Best course of action by far is to give as much money back as he possibly can, as soon as he can. Fox can't squeeze blood out of a turnip.
Quoted from Skins:Nope, just a judgement from future earnings. You know, in the event he hits the lottery or is willed money.
Which is why he would file for bankruptcy if he got a huge judgment against him. He wins the lottery after bankruptcy, Fox doesn't get shit.
Quoted from vid1900:That would be great, but you know things will not be great............
His counsel on the federal case will not likely work for free, so they will not likely advise him to go in that direction.
And that would be bad advice, especially given the obvious conflict of interest for doing so. I'm sure that the State Bar would take huge interest in something like that. I have a hard time believing that a lawyer would be stupid enough to recommend that he keep the money so the lawyer can get paid. Kevin could go to the State Bar, sooner or later, and that attorney (and possibly the entire firm) would be in deep shit.
So...no.
Quoted from vid1900:Kevin will not get attorneys to work for free in a federal case like this.
He will have to pay them a gigantic retainer, because they know he won't have a penny left after the case goes to trial.
It's not like getting some "family attorney" to represent you in court for $10,000.
Again: so?
You keep saying this. What's the point? Nobody is saying Kevin is going to get an attorney to work for free. The issue is whether he is better off by refunding as much of the money as soon as he can or not...even if that means not having money to pay an attorney later.
The answer to that question in my opinion is: yes, he is. Even if that means he won't have money left to pay a lawyer for some lawsuit filed by Fox. Worse thing that can happen under those circumstances? Fox gets a large judgment, Kevin files Bankruptcy and starts his life over again. Keeping the money can lead to worse consequences.
Quoted from Skins:I would hope so considering his occupation. Seeing his taste in pins and cars, I would surmise, somewhat successful at it as well.
Thanks, I appreciate that, but this is probably a good time for a (legal) disclaimer!
This is not my area of expertise, especially the IP stuff. I have done some relatively straightforward bankruptcy stuff in the past. Also, I obviously do not know what all the facts are by a long shot, so a lot of the opinions I have are based on certain assumptions, including that there is no type of Order that is tying up the funds etc.
Quoted from kvan99:He was asked and he flat out said yes....so this where it was either we believe him or some anonymous dude on the internet.
That's obviously an oversimplification, isn't it?
There was plenty of evidence to go along with what was in those emails from "some anonymous dude on the internet". Like the complete scrubbing of Predator from the Skit-B website and social media, removal of all Predator YouTube videos, Kevin's repeated failure to mention the word "Predator" in emails, and his disappearance from Pinside to name a few.
I'm fairly sure that if there was no truth at all to the rumors of Martin getting ready to publish an article on the Skit-B stuff that he would have quashed them by now.
Quoted from Aurich:He's got the recordings of the phone calls with the Fox lead attorney, if he's ever challenged.
I sure hope not, as that would be illegal without their consent.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:That's not true. Only about 25% of states have laws requiring both parties consent.
You are correct.
In my state, both parties must consent.
Quoted from Whysnow:I wonder when people are going to start contacting IP owners for every other pin manufacturer. Has anyone reached out to WWE to make sure Stern has the license? game of Thrones is rumored to be next, anyone know they have the correct IP rights acquired?
Are people actively reaching out to make sure Alien is licensed.
Has Mr. x contacted the hobbit IP holders also?
Please, for the love of God, stop acting stupid.
Because I know you're not.
Quoted from Nibbles:Website was scrubbed in 2013, payments were requested in April 2014. He then drug it out long enough for no one to reclaim their money because of PayPal's 180 limit for chargebacks.
One of the most important questions to be answered in this whole fiasco in terms of potential fraud/criminal charges is whether Kevin received a C&D letter from Fox before he asked for the additional payments?
If so, he's really going to be in deep shit.
Quoted from Noahs_Arcade:NOONE is going through this shit again
Odin? Calling Mr. Odin!! A Pinside post is in need of a response!
Quoted from underlord:Yk, I'm not on trial here, and neither are you. So since you are skirting the question, I'll join the fray and assume none. No money. So in that respect, I would like to know why you are taking such a vendetta in this thread?
If you again choose to ignore the question, It will go a long way to turning your accusations around, and no one here wants that to happen.
The question is asked of you, by many as you say, because it is a valid indication of involvement in this project. I'm involved by sending Skitb my support in the form of $4750 in exchange for goods. Are you in the same boat? Are you one of us?
Someone hasn't been paying attention.
There it is!
This is going to be interesting to read to say the least......
"Unlike most of our articles, this one will be quite a long read and won’t include many pretty pictures. But the picture it paints is not a pretty one either."
Not a good start.
"In fact it now appears Fox had sent Skit-B a 'cease & desist' notification, requiring them to remove all Predator-related materials and stop promoting or producing the game.
This was the defining moment where whatever notion of implied consent Skit-B may have thought they had was shattered. If they ever thought they had an agreement, this cease & desist proved they did not. And without an agreement from the IP rights holder, the game could never go into production.
And yet the Predator project rolled on regardless. "
That's all I need to know.
The guy is a crook.
Quoted from thedarkknight77:Heighway will get the license without Kevin and do a complete redesign. Let the witch hunt begin. I wouldn't want to be this Kevin guy for a million bucks.
Exactly.
No way should Andrew even consider touching this with Kevin involved. And that means that he can't touch any of that money that was paid to Kevin. Forget about it. That would be a nightmare situation from a business standpoint and makes no sense whatsoever.
Heighway already has a relationship with Fox. They can get the license themselves and like you say, design the game from the ground up.
Zero reason to touch this current situation with a 10 foot pole.
Quoted from Nibbles:How is there no inquiry as to how much money is left?
How could there be? Kevin is the only who knows the answer to that question. If he gave an answer, would it mean anything at this point?
"And although it wasn't widely discussed at the time, it was clear to anyone following the story that there were licensing problems. But nobody seemed willing to delve too deeply into them for fear of derailing the project or being branded a 'hater'. "
Sorry, but this needs to be highlighted. Too much truth here.
Quoted from frolic:If Heighway were to ever do a Predator, I hope they do a fresh in-house design. Maybe for the 30th anniversary in a couple of years.
Of course they would.
And it will be much better.
Quoted from fastpinball:I’ve spoken with Kevin, and told him that as much as I wish I could help him, there’s nothing I can do, he’s created this situation and he’s the only one who can resolve it. I’ve shared everything I can already with people and the Pinball News article we have been waiting for shares the details of what I couldn't share before. I don’t have any way of getting your money back. At this point I’m severing all my business relationships with Skit-B and hoping that in the end there’s a resolution that at least salvages what’s left of the money. Good luck everyone.
Aaron
FAST Pinball
Really Aaron, I'm sorry to say, but other than Whysnow, you had a bigger impact on convincing people that there was no issue with the license than anyone on Pinside. And actually, speaking for me personally, you had a much bigger impact on me than Whysnow.
It was based on your posts here that I had largely recanted some of my well documented criticism/doubt about any license existing, when you clearly implied that you had seen the actual Predator license agreement from Fox.
I had even indicated, in response to moderator Xerico, that it would have been nice if you specifically came out and stated whether you saw the actual license, but that it was clearly implied from your post(s). You let that sit, without further explanation, leading me to believe that you had actually seen the license agreement based on your friendship with Kevin...who is a great guy.
I swear to God, if I had a dime for every time I saw someone on Pinside post about what a nice guy Kevin is, I'd be a damn millionaire.
Quoted from iceman44:Aaron's a really nice guy and passionate about pinball.
Virtually everyone who met Kevin Kulek said the exact same thing.
Quoted from iceman44:I hear what you are saying, but until somebody shows me some criminal act that Aaron did I'll give him the benefit of the doubt, he's guilty of believing what Kevin told him, like a lot of other people.
Focus should be on Kevin.
Nope.
He's guilty of more than that I'm afraid. I've already explained it in my prior post. It did a lot more than just convey what Kevin told him. He was emphatic about it, and definitely implied that he had personal knowledge of facts that he didn't.
Oh, and people were giving Kulek "the benefit of the doubt" right up until the end too. Being a nice guy and all...
Quoted from gambit3113:This is the end of the preorder and boutique era as we know it. And I feel fine.
You know that some people who have deposits in on TBL will be asking for a refund based solely on the Skit-B fiasco.
Quoted from Aurich:Because really, this is about Kevin, FAST was just trying to work on his next game, and they got lied to like everyone else. Aaron is really only guilty of believing Kevin and using that to state that things were fine. Which might have been dumb, but it wasn't like he was in on some criminal conspiracy.
Couple things. First, like I said before, his posts were very adamant about what he knew, and he was telling people who were criticizing Kevin and were saying that there probably was no license to just STFU. He clearly implied that he had seen the actual Predator license. I back tracked on some of my comments about the license (called myself a "big boob"). But the truth is that Aaron never saw shit.
Why did Aaron go this far?
Because he was biased, that's why. I didn't realize it at the time. If I had, I would not have been so fast to believe what he said regarding there being "no issue with the license".
The bias doesn't come from being "friends with Kevin". It comes from having a financial stake in a pin that Kevin was going to make.
People can keep saying the focus should be Kevin. Well, no shit. But that doesn't mean that there might not be some other people whose credibility is going to take a hit as well. Aaron/FAST let himself get caught up in defending Kevin and will take that hit in credibility.
Quoted from YKpinballer:Now wait a minute - talking about virtuapin, this isn't just villifying them for nothing. They are absolutely complicit in fraud in this quote. They outright say that they have vetted the license, which is completely untrue as we know now.
Good point. I forgot about them. There's another example of someone who is going to take a shot in the credibility department.
Should we not talk about them either?
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Rai,
Just saying two wrongs don't make a right . Ideallt it was legit . Secondly I would rather hear about 250 rogue games made than this. Clearly mr x group was more malicious than helpful by their choice to support fox busting Kevin over telling buyers .
Please don't turn out be part of this group...
No.gifQuoted from spfxted:Was I reading the Pinball News article right? At the end they made it seem like someone may still pick up this project.
Nobody is going to "pick up this project" in terms of making a Predator pinball machine that will be credited to those who paid Skit-B.
Someone, probably Heighway, may very well get the Predator license down the road and build the pin. It will have nothing to do with Kevin or Skit-B or the people who have money in that (dead) project.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Kevns a piece of shite but folks that killed this at the expense of owners and keeping quiet to help ruin kelvin over telling and helping pinsiders are a close second .
Maybe not today but I bet a some point that falls alert and we learn who mr x is.
This is wrong on many levels. Read the article again. There are very specific reasons given for the delay in releasing the information and article by PBN.
Plus, this:
Quoted from frolic:Hold on, didn't Whysnow himself say he'd been receiving these emails, the same info that we saw tonight?! And even with that, he still sat here for weeks arguing with everyone? Desperately hoping those first 10 games would get made so he would get his? Disgusting.
So are you going to blame the biggest Skit-B/Predator suporter for withholding those emails from other owners?
I understand the frustration of owners in terms of the info not being released sooner so that people still could have been in their window to file a timely dispute with their credit card company and/or PayPal, but you are acting as though this were a deliberate attempt on their part to screw owners, which is a bit ridiculous.
Quoted from Whysnow:I am not sure about you, but I tend to write off anything that is sent to me via an alias as BS. keep in mind that mr X told me I was the only person he sent the original email to, but it was apparent quickly that he had sent the emails to many people. the emails were filled with lies and intended to insite a panic.
To incite a panic?
By sending the email to a few people privately?
No. If that was the intent you post it as publicly as you possibly can, including Pinside. You talk about those emails containing a lot of "lies" but you don't mention one of them. And even if only one thing they said was true, it was the only one that mattered: Kevin/Skit-B never had a license to make a Predator pinball machine.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:I never said whysnow is any less guilty if he knows this. In the end 200 people will be screwed by a Kevin and a bunch of self serving folks . Fact
So you are saying that the people who brought out the truth are self serving folks who screwed the buyers?
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:It's his fault but let's be honest. Mr x wasn't saving the world . People being as so wonderful as we are ...
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Bullshit rob . Taking down kevin in revenge came over the truth.
Anyone who honestly gave a shit would have focused on the buyers and not Kevin's down fall. This was bitter revenge not saving pinball.
Kevin makes me mad but this is almost as bad. And no it does not make anything ok. As I said two wrongs don't make it right.
Kevin's shit is real . But we will also see them for who they are . People are people and people love to f up . We will know everyone involved at some point . ; )
You are full of shit on this one Dave. Seriously. You talk about these people doing it for their own self interest. BS! If they wanted to do it for self serving self promoting reasons why did they stay anonymous? You are way off base here.
Blaming someone for pulling the fire alarm when there's a raging fire makes zero sense.
I recommend you read the email post again. Maybe you'll get it this time.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Chris no way are we misdirecting what Kevin did . But we are saying that most of us know a core group also set out to cause harm. Again kevin bad but this group of guys are proven assholes as well. Called out and plenty of folks know damn well who they are anyway.
You've now proven yourself to be on the same level as Whysnow.
Congrats!
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Wow, sad what this proves. Sad..
But to be clear the issue of pinsiders with self serving agendas sucks but in NO way is it anywhere close to what Kevin has done.
Kevin is a criminal and defrauded the hobby, These guys got caught up in their game and it pisses me off but it should not be a distraction from Kevin. This is his shitestorm.
Rob, because I read what others have read as well puts me in his sandbox? I am not happy that he also dragged this out for buyers but your group did the same. Its you who are on his level, not me.
Don't you dare call it "my group" again. I had nothing to do with any of it. Zero. So stop making bullshit inferences, they are not appreciated.
The fact that you think I did tells me even more about you though, and the way you think.
This thread has been a true eye opener for me in many ways. Some of the idiocy and ignorance I've seen posted in this thread will forever kill the credibility of some people for me (no need to mention them by name).
Quoted from jrivelli:So if he does refund all the money and there is no scam then thats super lame of the folks who tattled to fox, right? This was a small 250 run with a prototype that went to shows. Perhaps insanely slow to develop etc. Not the issue. Now, because some "pinsiders on a crusade", or however they identified their self-rightesous selfs, fox wins and all 250 preorders get money back, but lose. Bummer!
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Did not until you started saying what you were and placing me on his level for being upset at someones intent. Lets be very clear you took my non generalized statement and A. Took it to heart and B decided to attack me. Mr High and mighty.You made it clear how you feel about me and your words made things clear to me. So we are on even ground. Only I dont do it at others expense ; )
Your group Your group Your group Your group ...
Because your "generalized statement" was idiotic. And it still is.
I still have no clue how you can call the whistleblowers who came out with the truth "assholes" or self serving when they are anonymous!
Quoted from tamoore:A lot of anonymous people are trying to be famous. It's just really, really, really hard.....
Quoted from markmon:This is totally true. Why would some idiots give this thumbs down?
Because it's bullshit and clueless?
I swear to God I need to stop reading this thread. I'm just going to blow a gasket. Too much ignorance being shown by too many Pinsiders. It hurts!!
I'd prefer to think I hang out in a forum with smart people. 
For you boobs who think the anonymous group were nothing more than assholes for bringing the truth out about there being no license because you think Predator could have been made "under the radar" and delivered to customers, please read this post, as it appears you missed it earlier:
Quoted from StevenP:From strictly an IP perspective, you are infringing once you advertise and offer something for sale that is copyrighted, without the (c) owner's permission. The court can order impounding of all infringing goods (e.g. shipped/unshipped Predator games, parts with Predator artwork/logo, etc.). US Code, Title 17, Section 503. It's OK to do a personal retheme for your own use (and not-so-OK if you sell even one of these that has copyrighted/trademarked elements, technically). I cannot fathom what Kevin was thinking...
This is a moronic statement. (not the first from this source, btw.) Why? because, what *if* Predator was made "under the radar" and shipped? Pretty sure someone at Fox would find out eventually. And infringement is infringement. A year or 2 from now, they could sue Kevin/Skit-B, get all sales records thru discovery, and impound all the Predator games. (That means taking them away from all the owners, without *any* compensation.) And once the games were built, there would be ZERO money left, and the customers would definitely be out 100%.
Quoted from ccotenj:a follow up "open letter to kevin" from the ag... scroll past the initial story...
https://predatorpinball.wordpress.com
“The Real Story” – An Open Letter to Kevin
MARCH 24, 2015 ~ LEAVE A COMMENT
Kevin Kulek stated in email tonight:
For those of you interested, there will be a follow-up article posted on Pinball News with the real story.
Here is an open letter to Kevin Kulek.
Kevin, read closely:
If your intent is to come clean, admit to the facts found, and own things – great. Even better (as Nate described in Coast2Coast #147) tell the whole story, and go over the top with “as dirty as it truly is”. If so, would be a good sign of true penance. Penance right now is a good thing. Would bode well for you.
On the other hand, if your intent is to bandage everything up, patch & crackfill, and maintain any of the storylines of the past… you’ll end up digging yourself deeper. If you DARE go down ANY road of trying to uphold any inkling of a fiction of working with Fox, following rules they laid out, and any kind of ongoing process of submission/approval you claimed before… you have to realize that just saying it won’t be good enough. Don’t say anything unless you are ready to back it up.
OK, you likely (we hope) won’t claim you had a license anymore… BUT:
PLEASE DON’T have a stupid fallback position/fiction planned in your head, thinking you’re going to win sympathy by going down the “Sorry guys, I thought…” road.
If you claim you had ANY kind of setup with Fox, we will maintain you are a liar.
Otherwise, prove us (and Fox IP’s senior attorney) wrong:
Name the “IP dude who was a cool pinhead” person, state his position, his phone number, and/or his email address. We will verify the story.
Name the person(s) who were your alleged Fox liasons the last couple years. The ones who you allegedly communicated with on a regular basis, and worked with your approvals through. Again – name(s), position(s), phone numbers or email addresses. We will verify the story.
Heck, just the “Long Tall Sally” claim alone: Please name the agency, date, contact name, arrangement details, cost… We will verify the story.
Show the hobby (have Martin post them) past emails for SOMETHING…. ANYTHING… with complete headers (nothing redacted in the contact info) and showing communication on ANY matters related to IP on your machine. We will verify the story with those people at those email addresses.
And a final note, Kevin: Be aware that your “Real Story” will be forwarded to Mr. Coughlin, the Fox senior attorney on your case. He will be interested in seeing another official update on what your position is on the Predator matter, and it’s backstory. Kevin, it had better be iron clad. It’s going to literally be taken-in as a public statement for their case notes.
Sorry to all if this sounds “mean”, but we’ve simply had it with Kevin and his ring-around-the-rosies. If that is what he’s going to attempt again. Kevin’s dancing is what delayed Martin from publishing for 3+ months. Kevin ALWAYS kept things appearing hopeful / fixable / active. Martin didn’t want to sink the ship, and tried his best to coach Kevin toward solutions. That burned up a lot of time. We feel bad for poor Martin, who is professionally obligated to provide an equal platform for Kevin to speak (in a spirit of fairness of the press). We encourage Martin to stay strong with the “courtroom” type verifications that he had in place for us. We had to get Martin to the level of actual phone conversations with Fox in order to verify our claims. We expect the same will be required of Kevin.
Maybe Kevin will just come clean, and tell a story of refunds, ending the project, and his hopes for another way the machine could get made in the future. Maybe it will be as benign as that.
But this “real story” inference sounds like Kevin has got some alternate story to tell, or corrections to make to what we found… Kevin, don’t go there. Mea Culpa. Mea Culpa. Keep it simple.
Quoted from lowepg:I was OK with their big expose (though wish it came sooner), but this last email feels like they want to go beyond exposing Kevin and want to rub his nose in it.
It's just not needed... especially since Kevin hasnt refuted and of the allegations since the article.
Now IF he comes out and spins a new web of shit, well , that different. But right now, this feels like they are just "spiking the football"
I agree for the most part. Let it go. They are too upset with Kevin's failure to admit complete fault. They want a pure unadulterated mea culpa. Not going to happen. Just leave it alone at this point.
Quoted from kvan99:Hang it up with the thumbs Rarehero and go to bed....feel sorry for you.
Says the only guy on Pinside to give this post a thumbs down:
Quoted from RobT:"In fact it now appears Fox had sent Skit-B a 'cease & desist' notification, requiring them to remove all Predator-related materials and stop promoting or producing the game.
This was the defining moment where whatever notion of implied consent Skit-B may have thought they had was shattered. If they ever thought they had an agreement, this cease & desist proved they did not. And without an agreement from the IP rights holder, the game could never go into production.
And yet the Predator project rolled on regardless. "That's all I need to know.
The guy is a crook.
You disagree that he's a crook?
Quoted from lowepg:In the end, he will admit nothing, but will try to make enough restitution so that people will go away and not sue him.
And it would be one of the few smart moves he's made.
Quoted from TigerLaw:I mentioned this earlier but it is buried now. We will all find out who the secret group is comprised of soon enough if there really is a lawsuit brought by Fox. Remember, Fox interviewed them and knows who they are. They may be mentioned in the petition itself, deposed in the lawsuit, or gleaned through discovery.
Trying to think this one through, and I am not so sure that I see a scenario where these people would be exposed just because Fox brings a lawsuit.
A Fox attorney may have interviewed them, but what personal information do they have that any other Predator owner wouldn't have?
The only major thing that they discovered was that Kevin didn't have a license from Fox for Predator. How did they find that out? By talking to a Fox attorney!
So I don't see them being a witness anymore than any other owner.
Question: "Isn't it true that you found out Kevin was making Predator Pinball without a license?"
Answer: "Yes".
Question: "How did you determine that?"
Answer: "You told me!"
Of course I know what you are saying. They already have these particular people's info etc., so they make the obvious choice as witnesses who are likely to cooperate.
People keep saying they have a good idea who at least some of the anonymous group and Mr. X is. Anyone want to share? I honestly have no clue. A PM is fine (and in fact preferred).
Quoted from flynnibus:Ask yourself... what would have changed if the PBN story ran in Dec instead of March?
The main difference as explained by some owners is that they still would have been in their window to dispute a credit card charge apparently.
Edit: Cobra beat me
Quoted from vid1900:No.
It can't go like that.
Kevin will have the Fox federal criminal case first, as that is already in the works.
As much as he would love to refund the remaining money, he would love to keep his ass out of federal prison even more.
(Can anyone imagine what the prisons are like in Michigan???? Filled with friendly faces from Flint and Detroit?)
So no doubt, he will spend all the money he can possibly scrounge on his criminal defense, then declare bankruptcy.
"Fox federal criminal case"?
What's the evidence for this statement? I'm sure you realize that Fox can't bring a criminal case against Kevin, right?
Quoted from gweempose:Why can't they bring a suit against him? He collected a shitload of money using their IP. Or are you just saying that the suit wouldn't be a "criminal" suit?
Read the quote you just quoted again.
Obviously they can bring a civil lawsuit. If anything, it sounds like that's what's been "set in motion". I've heard nothing about a criminal case.
Huge difference.
Quoted from playernumber4:Yes, Fox can be the complainant in a criminal case. The felony charges can be authorized by the county prosecutor or state attorney general. Or either of those agencies can send the case up to the Feds because of the interstate transactions that have taken place.
We don't disagree. Fox would be the "complainant" just like any other victim of a crime. But the victim is not the one who brings the charges. That would be "the people" (the county prosecutor or state attorney general etc. as you mention).
Bottom line is that Fox is not the one who files the criminal charges, the prosecutor is. I.e., you are not going to have a FOX attorney prosecute Kevin in a criminal case. That's just basic criminal law stuff.
I know pretty much nothing when it comes to IP law though. StevenP is our resident expert on that.
Quoted from oopsallberrys:Paypal has closed my case and filed in my favor. I got my "refund" of 4500
Quoted from Chambahz:If any of you are not receiving the same customer support from your credit card companies that Oopsallberrys got, I would suggest that you tell them that you KNOW PayPal has been issuing refunds
Maybe I have misunderstood, and the first post from Oopsallberrys was confusing because it did state that he got a refund "from paypal" but subsequent posts seem to make it clear that he actually got a credit from his credit card company (which may or may not have anything to do with paypal).
Am I wrong?
Quoted from oopsallberrys:I got a credit from my credit card company first while the investigation was on going. PayPal closed the case stating they couldn't dispute my chargeback. I keep the credit that my credit card gave me. If PayPal said I was in the wrong for filing the chargeback, then my credit card company would charge me the $4500 again.
Perfect!
Thanks for the follow up clarification.
Quoted from rgb635:I dont mean to be sarcastic at all but what happened with the Preditor machine? I was following the initial post maybe a year or two ago when the prototypes were being designed but then i didnt follow up since. Now i see all the conversation regarding money return attempts. WHAT HAPPENED????
No license.
The end.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:What I guess I don't understand is how someone can file bankruptcy while sitting on hundreds of thousands of dollars, he would have prove he doesn't have the funds to pay his outstanding debts or am I off base? Its not like he can just file bankruptcy and keep our money. At this point if he files bankruptcy I want to see him tossed in jail.
He obviously spent some money on Predator. And marketing it. Expenses of parts, going to shows, the prototypes etc.
So he doesn't have money to give 100% refunds to everyone. Depending on what the asset to debt ratio is, he may be eligible for bankruptcy.
Quoted from spfxted:Great! Everyone should know exactly what you did/said. Were you out of the time limit?
The most important thing to be gleaned from his post is the fact that he used American Express.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Regarding the bankruptcy discussion earlier in the thread, one point I will add is the debt is generally speaking non-dischargable in the bankruptcy due to it being an intentional act (fraud). That doesn't necisarily help anyone since it may nevertheless be non-collectable and the bankruptcy rules do provide protections for ones assets even in cases of an intentional act.
Fraud would have to be proven though. It's not something Kevin is going to stipulate to in any BK proceeding.
Quoted from badbilly27:Kevin should be posting directly on pinside, where all this started.
Yes, I'm sure that's going to happen any second now.
Quoted from starfighter:My advice is this:
Contact an attorney and explain the details of your dealings with skit-b. Ask your attorney if you have a case (civil or criminal) and follow the advice given to you.
I have done this and I am following the advice of my attorney.
Any case you file in court is a civil case. Not criminal.
Quoted from Rarehero:So....you don't understand life.
The facts are SO simple & clear.
-Kevin never had the license.
-Kevin never had the ability to mass produce.
-Had the story not come out, no one would have a Predator ever anyway.
But I'll humor you - if the truth was wrong, Kevin would have refuted it with proof. He said "project is over, refunds are coming" ...and has vanished - no one has received refunds. The cherry-lie on top of the sundae-lie. Kevin is the bad guy. His fault entirely. Blame the villain, not the messenger.
And he got 4 thumbs up for that post.
It's amazing that even *after* the PBN article was published that I can still continue to post this picture in a Predator thread:
head-in-sand.jpgQuoted from Kcpinballfan:I don't understand life? Piss off. One thing I do understand is that an anonymous group of cowards posted a bunch of stuff without actually proving it. Do I think Kevin has the license absolutely not, do I have proof? No. All I know is if I was part of a group of people that bought into Predator and had information that could save a lot of people their money I would have no problem coming forward and not hiding behind an anonymous moniker, the bottom line as I see it is the AG only cared about themselves in order to insure they received their money back, to make them heroes is a joke.
I dont have my head in the sand Rob, Kevin is a lying, stealing chode to the highest degree but if you think im gonna thank an anonymous group of cowards you're wrong. They didnt help me as I see it, im in the same if not a worse spot now than before. As for the thumbs down, who gives a shit, do you think I won't sleep tonight cause some guy on the internet gave me a thumbs down? At the end of the day it doesn't matter. If I filed a case against Kevin do you think the posting of an anonymous group of people would be enough to prove my case and return my funds? Its a serious question.
When the anonymous groups original article came out I was somewhat relieved then thsy did a follow up that proved their character and I saw their true colors and intent. Im sorry that doesnt jive with some here but im not on this thread to make friends, agree or disagree thats the point of a forum but youre not gonna change my feeling on the CAG.
The AG is not made up of Saint's or great guys, and they could have obviously handled things differently/better, but your post still comes down to shooting the messenger.
And I disagree with you saying that you are worse off now that before this shit came to light. As Rarehero said, you were not going to get a game anyway.
The head in the sand comment comes from your statement about there being no proof that Kevin doesn't have a license.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:The only proof we would have is Kevin on record saying there is no license or the fox recorded phone conversation that we don't have. That's kind of my point.
What point?
Why is it important to have absolute forensic proof? Again, as Rarehero pointed out, if Kevin had a license, he would have refuted the story...and provided PROOF HE HAD A LICENSE. Why didn't he do that? 
Quoted from angus:If you have to go in front of a judge (or a cop or the fbi) for a lawsuit proof is important. Those without any money on Predator could care less about going in front of a judge, so having some real proof isn't important. I think Kcpinballfan cares about actually proving to someone else as opposed to just assuming it is the case. The lawyers name at Fox is about the best we have. Posts on the internet don't add up to much.
I'll repeat myself from earlier.
Any lawsuit is against Kevin. In discovery, you require Kevin to provide proof of a Predator license. He can't. You win.
Quoted from blondetall:I understand that it had to be rough watching Skit-B sell out with a waiting list while non-licensed AHM limped along for a little bit trying to sell 100 units despite people claiming they wanted original unlicensed games. And surely it hurt that it didnt get much recognition even when it was the first boutique game made and delivered. It had to feel good that interest in AMH rose greatly after Predator was a dead project and (to my understanding) AMH has now sold out. And I honestly have no clue what, if any, kind of relationship/communication/drama there was between Skit-B and Benheck/AMH.
Well, at least your last sentence was accurate (about having no clue about the relationship between Skit-B and AMH/Spooky).
Spooky was going to make parts, including the playfields, for Predator.
Yep, sounds like some bitter hatred/drama going on there for sure!
Quoted from PEN:Yeah, I have read this opinion over and over, and you are entitled to it. I have a different opinion. How many people (self included) do you think held back extreamly sound advice as a direct result of the "culture" and or policy of many threads? <Retorical question.
Exactly.
Hater.
Quoted from jonnyo:The only thing I agree with you on is the smugness.
Had I been in their shoes I probably would have done exactly the same and gone through some sort of 3rd party to break it like they did with PBN. The reason is simple: if I'm wrong, for ANY reason (technicality, license info lost in giant multi-national company, lawyer just being a d***, etc) then now I potentially get sued for killing the project.
Here's the kicker: even if I'm *right* I can still get sued. That happens all the time to shut people up.
Now, why am I going to take on that risk for YOU? It's great you like pinball, but I'm not going to risk getting sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars because we have that in common, sorry. I'm not going to risk being the most hated guy on Pinside ever because I just killed a project run by this hard-working 'merican in ol' downtrodden Michigan just trying to share his love of pinball. They'll be writing country songs for him, and gangster rap for me. F that.
The signs of license trouble have been there for a long, long time. They acted on that evidence, you didn't.
Quoted from jonnyo:I don't think you totally get it. There seem to be quite a number of people who think the games would have been made if the AG didn't tip off Fox. They're still in denial, apparently, and not looking at the other factors you mentioned: the paper-thin margins, no evidence of ability to manufacture, and a prototype that fell over if you looked at it wrong.
And as a follow-on, apparently they don't care that Fox' IP would have been stolen, nor are they concerned with the possibility that Fox might come after them down the road as a result (which I agree, is pretty unlikely). Their reasoning is, "Okay, Kevin lied. So what? If everyone keeps their trap shut we all get our games."
So bottom line, since they have little or no concern with the theft of Fox IP, or that the game would have been 'unofficial', or that Kevin lied, they place a lot of the blame on the AG for the ending of the project. Under those circumstances, I can understand completely not wanting to reveal themselves.
There are just too many people out there looking for someone - anyone - to blame, and neither logic nor scruples are going to deprive them of it.
Couldn't possibly agree more.
And seriously, what the hell difference does it make who the AG is at this point anyway? Even if all of their pinside usernames were all listed in a post here, today, what good would come from it? What would the reaction be at this point?
Is there even one valid reason that anyone in the AG should come forward now?
At one point I was very curious, and I had even asked people to PM me if they had a good idea who belonged to the AG. Received a fair number of responses, and while I was quickly able to dismiss a lot of the names given, I also quickly realized that even if some of the other names were accurate, it didn't really mean shit.
Quoted from badbilly27:And if anyone from AG wants to PM me with an alias to answer direct Q&As, you know where I am. I'm still baffled at the PR approach.
You are the perfect example of why the AG has decided that they will *never* reveal themselves, after initially saying that they would with time.
Why the hell should they answer a single question from you? You've done nothing but shoot the messenger ever since this whole thing went down.
I still wonder if you told the person who bought your Predator spot that you had serious doubts/concerns about the whole project before selling to them?
I'm sure you did, given your great "concern for the community" and everything.
Quoted from badbilly27:I had my watch set to how fast it would take you to reply to my post - surprise!
First, in fact I did have a lengthy conversation with the person who bought my spot and specifically why I was pulling out. It didn't matter to him. I also contacted him when rumors of anonymous emails were going around - still didn't bother him. He said he was a big boy and knew what he was getting into. I did my part on the "concern of the community" and based on PMs between you and I you know that. Bad form my friend, bad form.
Lastly, I have not shot the messenger. I have publicly stated, as posted in this thread and in PMs to you, I applaud AG finding out about the non-license. It's "how" they communicated, delays, confusion, and PR stunt they pulled. Always seem to deflect around the two issues. "How" Rob, "How".
Again, your reply(s) really make me go hmmm. Few friends part of AG?
More deflection from you. You are good at it.
So, did you offer to do a chargeback on your CC so the person who bought your Predator spot could get their money back? Or are they shit out of luck because they paid you cash for your spot?
You already know that I have nothing to do with the AG, that I don't know a single person involved with the AG, and therefore you once again saying that I do is just further proof of your deflection/attempt to discredit me for calling you out on your hypocrisy.
Quoted from badbilly27:I felt something was wrong, voiced it (emphasize - voiced it) in the Predator thread and was fortunate to sell my spot months before any of this.
You didn't voice any real concerns publicly in the Predator thread until *after* you sold your spot.
You need to be careful when you say things. Some of us actually pay attention.
This is your post from 4 months ago, showing how you needed the communities help to get a refund on your Predator since Kevin wasn't responding:
Quoted from badbilly27:Sorry to do this but I guess I require pinside help like a few others before me in this thread. I've tried to go direct email route and SkitB support has gone dark again.
Situation changed for me back in September and I requested a refund (#9, Production #14). I did receive a reply from Skit B many weeks later. Fast forward, we've been in communications again over last three weeks (very minimal) requesting refund again but no action. Like two other pinsiders before me in this thread, I would appreciate assistance. (Jet or whysnow maybe you guys can email in a favor).
I believe in SkitB and the Predator pin will be a success. Good group of guys over there and fellow collectors. I'm sorry I had to post on pinside request for assistance - I normally wouldn't - but hopefully this expedites my request and allows someone else to move in my coveted spot.
You believed in SkitB and you believed that Predator would be a success. Good group of guys!
This was a lucky situation for someone else, as they could swoop in and "move in to your coveted spot"!
lol
Quoted from badbilly27:Pot. Kettle. Black.
That doesn't even make sense. I'm not the one who is intent on discovering who is in the AG. That would be you.
Funny how anyone who disagrees with you on this issue must be part of the AG.
Quoted from badbilly27:No I won't refund the money, as it's Kevin's to refund.
So, you sell your Predator spot to someone who pays you cash for it, and you won't help him get a refund by contacting your CC company to do a chargeback which, if successful, would allow you to get him his money back?
Yet...the AG are a bunch of douchebags because they didn't speak up sooner to help the community?
Quoted from badbilly27:Hypocrisy? Me thinks he does protest too much Mr. President.
You don't see the hypocrisy here? You wanted the AG to act differently...for the good of the community. But you won't even help someone who paid you cash for your Predator spot by contacting your CC company to do a chargeback?
Quoted from badbilly27:My discussion was with Johnny Oh not you until you jumped in.
Oh, my bad. I apologize for interrupting your private discussion on a public pinball forum.
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:Yeah Id say really close friends. You can tell by the staunch support of all that is the AGOCJ and downvotes of anyone who opposes.
Wow. That's some superb detective work there! Who ever would have put the facts together like you and BadBilly have here?! Amazing!
Quoted from TigerLaw:The big question I would have is whether Kevin's eventual bankruptcy proceeding (my guess is it is coming sooner or later) would stay the out of state lawsuit(s) and have it (them) transferred to Michigan bankruptcy court for a ruling.
I don't know enough about bankruptcy law to opine on that point . . . but I do know it would suck to lose venue that way . . . perhaps a pinlawyer more knowledgeable on bankruptcy procedure can weigh in on whether a pre-judgment out of state lawsuit would be subject to being transferred to the bankruptcy court.
I'm not sure about technically losing venue, but any lawsuit against Kevin would almost surely be stayed pending the BK proceeding. Which, for all intents and purposes, would be the same as losing venue as you would need to file in the BK proceeding as a creditor.
What a mess.
Quoted from jayhawkai:Can a pinlawyer explain this to me? I just don't understand all this complicated legal jargon.
Laymen crack me up.
Unbelievable. Never met the guy in person, but it's hard to believe that he would come across this naive?
"Even when Fox told them to remove all mention of the Predator project from their website and stop promoting the game, Kevin says they didn’t see this as a big deal."
He told us, “When they asked us to take the things down from the website, it was like, ‘Oh, I guess we overstepped. Let’s draw it back a little bit and stick with the agreement that we had.'”
Yet he told all of us that he took references to Predator off his website because they were "re-doing it". lol
Quoted from Nibbles:"Kevin told us that although it is happening slowly and streadily, the refund process has begun and a number of those who pre-ordered have already received repayments."
LOL! Will one person please confirm that they got an actual refund from Kevin, and not through a chargeback? Just one person...anyone?...*crickets*
Exactly.
What a crock of shit.
"Surely when Fox contacted Skit-B and told them to take down the material, we asked, they would have checked to see what they were entitled to do?
He replied, “There’s a very black-and-white side to that part of the story. To say that, obviously there had to be checks made, yeah that’s true. But, at the same time, to assume that there was absolutely no contact [with Fox] from the beginning to the end of this whole thing is somewhat irresponsible Because we’ve taken [the game] to so many places around the world and we’ve done Pinball News a handful of times, we do podcasts and all these little radio shows. We were not hiding… If we were trying to do something under the table, I mean I could probably do it a lot better than that. To say there was zero contact is mentally irresponsible."
"But obviously the truth has to lie somewhere in the middle. And that’s what I’m giving you now, the middle truth. We were told what we could do, but, as it more seems is, it is more like a fair use response. So this is what you can do with our IP, and those are the rules that we followed. We took that as the permission, and we continued."
.
The "middle truth"?! WTF? Well, thanks for telling us all the "middle truth" there Kevin, but I think the "simple truth" would have been a lot better.
This guy is a pathological liar. And a complete idiot!
"I don’t understand the complaint. I don’t want to sound like I’m living under a rock or in a bubble, but I don’t know what the hell I did to anybody to make them this mad at me. It’s come to me from many people that there’s lots of speculation about who these [anonymous] people are, what they’re doing. It’s come to my attention that a fairly small collection of people – 2 or 3 people – who were in on the project at one point, and bailed for whatever reason they had, and were refunded, and that was it. I don’t know where the animosity or the need to vilify me or my project comes from. I have no clue. No idea."
.
Holy f'ing sh*t, are you kidding me here??
He doesn't know what the hell he did to anybody to make them this mad at him??
Somebody help me here. I am truly at a complete loss for words, and that doesn't happen often...
Quoted from Nibbles:So, it has to be safe to assume he doesn't have a lawyer? What lawyer would allow that to be publicly released? Or did Mom give it the "okay"?
Definitely agree completely with this. Zero chance a lawyer would ever let him do this, especially considering how many times he hangs himself with his own words.
If he is representing himself, he has a fool for a client.
Quoted from PinChili:Based on his comments in this article alone about not understanding why everyone is so angry with him. That sure sounds like evidence to me that he is reading everything here. Where else would he get that idea from, right?
Oh, he is absolutely reading Pinside. He said this:
"Pinside is not the pinball community. But people see it that way. And as far as that community goes, I have no interest in redeeming anything with the people who tried to post my wife’s phone number in order to harass me directly or indirectly, or suggested that I paid all the money to my mother, and whatever else was said."
So yeah, he's reading it alright.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:Well, on one hand the freezing should be applauded. On the other hand, there's no transparency to the next steps.
I don't know what the solution is, and I'm not convinced PayPal does yet either.
.
Quoted from tracelifter:I would imagine if Payenemy has the money frozen they will wait until after litigation is finished and a judge makes an order as to what to do with the funds.
.
Quoted from Purpledrilmonkey:I would tend to agree, but what/which litigation? A class action suit? 200 small claims suits? A criminal case? Bankrupcy proceedings?
The list goes on with how many ways this could shake down; its such a mess at this point.
I'm sure Paypal has a ton of experience with this stuff, but shooting from the hip here, it seems that the logical thing for Paypal to do would be to take the initiative and file suit themselves.
They would file an Interpleader claim with the court. This is the process where you basically deposit funds with the court that you are holding for others, and there is a dispute as to whom is owed what from those funds.
Paypal would have to notify everyone who has a potential claim to those funds, which shouldn't be difficult since they know who made payments to Skit-B.
The court then decides who gets what out of the Paypal proceeds.
Quoted from robertmee:Here's the problem in my opinion. Kevin has proven to not be business savvy. So I'm guessing that this paypal account is not a simple holding tank for preorder money. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a great deal of co-mingling of funds..from buyers to vendors to perhaps even personal aquusitions and/or deposits. Tshirt sales, marketing costs, travel expenses....I bet it's a mess.
.
Quoted from dkazz1:Hey Rob, given your background with all this kind of stuff, your suggestion make a lot of sense. Here is the problem as I see it. Most everyone made large cash deposits to this account 6+ months ago, I guarantee you the minute those deposits were made, Kevin immediately transferred those to his bank account, more than likely into a dummy account at the bank which was then transferred into another account to which PayPal can't access directly. Scam artists have used this way around charge backs with PayPal for years.
The chances of any money actually being in this directly accessible to PayPal account are probably slim at best. PayPal can certainly freeze the account but that doesn't mean there's any money there. The money is gone folks, if it truly was there the refunds would already be coming back without any need to request your money back.
You guys are both right. But take a look at the posts that I was replying to. I was talking from PayPal's point of view. They don't have to wait for other litigation to take place, they can initiate it themselves.
An interpleader action is what you do when you are holding money for others who are claiming a right to it and you don't know how much everyone is entitled to. So you let the court decide.
Quoted from jonnyo:22:30 - Talks about being a non-profit. "If we have a lot of money rolling through, we'll get lost in it, but if we're legally obligated to keep track of everything, and not spend anything, it helps a lot."
There were always some red flags with Skit-B, but this is definitely one of those red flags that I had missed until recently. This just doesn't make any sense at all.
Quoted from jonnyo:"Game is officially licensed to carry the Predator brand and has a giant list of sound and voice clips cut from the movie itself. There is a vulgarity switch in the settings menu to turn off all swearing, if you have a family-friendly game room and aim to keep it that way."
"Production information: We expect the start producing our first handful of machines within the next month or two, meaning we SHOULD have a few people out there with Predators under their (gigantic) Christmas trees." (2012)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread#post-435997
"The licensing and likeness costs and all that aren't really something we're allowed to talk much about, unfortunately. If you're wondering if certain characters will appear in the game / artwork, I can tell you that all of the notable characters are present in both.
I'm not exactly clear what you mean with the term "oversight." We haven't run into any qualms with anyone about how the characters are being portrayed or anything, if that's what you mean. I know there was a big hiccup with the Demolition Man over something like that with Wesley Snipes and they had to go through multiple backglass designs because of it, but we haven't had any issues with anything like that, so we're happy."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo#post-199204
"This is the magic of being a small, non-profit company. Not only does it keep the games more affordable, everything we get goes right back into the company itself as a direct investment towards the next game. Sounds like a system that works, to me."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo#post-202832
"When your game is about to go out onto the shop floor, you will be contacted in advance. You make your deposit and the game gets built. Once the game is done, you simply pay the remainder and get your game. If you need to opt out of your pre-order, you can just contact us before your game is coming up and let us know. Of course, your pre-order spot and number would go back up for grabs, as well."
(This was actually the reason I decided to gamble on this pre-order. Since I was far down the list, I figured I would see games coming off the line before I had to put any "real" money (i.e. $2750+) down.)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo/page/3#post-211657
"Our company profile is set up that way on purpose. We are listed as a non-profit entertainment company, so any revenue that flows through our company needs to stay within our company. This means that every time a Predator goes out the door, we're that much closer to not only making another game, we're that much closer to getting our own fancy CNC machine, silk-screener, injection molder, etc. Whenever something else like that lands in-house, that's one less thing that has to be contracted out, and drives the cost of games down ever further."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo/page/3#post-211709
BigPhil said:
Poeple have been burned in the past and I guess I'm just after as much reassurance as possible that this will actually happen.
"I wish I could say more, but I simply can't say anything other than the fact that we have legal right to use the Predator license for our purposes. I hate this legal crap just as much as anybody..."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo/page/6#post-215698
swinks said:
does that mean no license is required or still is required?
"It's complicated It's not like one of those open-domain things, or something like that, if that's what you're asking."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo/page/4#post-213473
"Playfield design and software is done by yours truly, Kevin W. Kulek.
Playfield artwork is done by James Dubay.
Assembly design and R&D is done by Aaron Klumpp.
All of our paperwork - both monetary and legal - is done by Kathy L. Kulek."
(Emphasis on MONETARY and LEGAL paperwork done by Kathy Kulek)
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo#post-198194
navajas said:
Non-profits, by definition, can absolutely NOT make a profit, that's why they're called non-profits. They can make "surplus revenue" which are the assets that must be reinvested into the company. And obviously they can take a salary.
"This is what it's all about, pretty much. We can take a salary, but it has to be documented and considered "reasonable" in comparison to the money flowing through the company, so while we will be able to survive, we won't be showing up to any shows with sexy foreign cars and slick suits or anything. My 15 year old American pickup truck and t-shirt-n-jeans will suit me just fine. For the people, by the people, I suppose... "
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-pinball-at-michigan-pinball-expo/page/28#post-392177
" As I said a second ago, we are very close to our release candidate, which, to a programmer or engineer, means damn near done. Now we just have to wait for the business end to catch up, along with legal stuffs in the interim. Art finished, art approvals, toys finalized, parts lists confirmed, suppliers stocked, the list goes on."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread/page/47#post-669127
navajas said:
One question I was going to ask had I been able to go to the seminar was does Fox have an IP police/enforcer/oversight guy that you needs to sign off on things? Does the game have to go before some suits for review and approval or anything like that?
Also, I was going to ask what Kevin and Aaron did before this.
"Fox has access to everything they own, obviously, and they have a say over how it's all used. They generally don't care about much in the way it applies to pinball specifically, they just need to know that it's been unmodified and isn't being used way out of context. Likenesses are a little more touchy, but pretty much the same. In short, gameplay changes mean nothing to them, but art and sounds mean everything."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread/page/94#post-927087
(2013-07-17) "For build timing, I can only assume here, but we expect initial units to be completed and shipping out BEFORE the Chicago expo this year"
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread/page/101#post-993081
(2013-08-26) "It's no secret that working with contractors to get parts made takes time and has holdups, but things are moving along quite well. We've gotten some stuff in recently that hasn't been shown/talked about yet that are extremely cool, like custom backbox lighting by CoinTaker lighting! The final game is coming together nicely, and no worries about a complete game this year."
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/new-predator-info-thread/page/106#post-1070989
Unbelievable.
Literally.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:So if Kevin somehow he proved he was not lying would he not still have to return funds?
Huh?
Quoted from playboywillis:Damn, anyone else get that auto-reply from the Detective?
Shit just got real.
Can it be shared?
Quoted from vid1900:Sadly, the more trouble he sees coming, the more money he will need to hold onto for big legal fees.
If Paypal has actually frozen the account, he can't use those funds for legal fees.
Quoted from vid1900:With all the chargebacks in progress, he really can't refund from Paypal anyway
Exactly.
Quoted from playernumber4:The judge will ask why a civil case and criminal case are going on at the same time on the same matter and rule that one must be completed before the other because this case is too complicated and there are too many victims.
What are you talking about??
A Judge isn't going to defer shit to a criminal case. He will hear a single civil case on it's merits. There is no legal basis to say "one must be completed before the other".
If Kevin files for bankruptcy, that's a different matter.
Are you an attorney? Or did you just sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night? 
Quoted from playernumber4:Kevin's defense is that he will still be completing the games. The judge cannot rule out that defense until the investigation is done and it is proven that he cannot complete the games because he has no licensing. The courtroom is a very interesting place to be sometimes.
Kevin already admitted he will not be completing the games.
Quoted from gearheaddropping:It sounds like Kevin needs to understand interrogatories and document production pretty quick IMHO. Those can be some very scary requests and add a bit of lucidity to a person's thinking (it has for me in the past).
Indeed.
Would love to see the look on his face when he receives Interrogatories/Demand for Production of Documents asking him to produce any and all documents in any way related to or tending to show that he had (has) a license to make Predator at any time in the last 3-4 years.
Quoted from jayhawkai:The ones I can think of:
TigerLaw - litigator?
RobT - litigator, I think
DCFan - works at the USPTO
StevenP - IP
Razorback - invented the class action lawsuit and bankruptcy court system
me - small town pizza lawyer:
» YouTube video
There are many more actually. Some would say too many.
Iceman44
JamBurglar
Gambit3113
TktLwyer
PinLawyer
Apollyon
Dbaum88
Silver_Spinner
MTPPC
Magic_Mike
Quoted from spfxted:As I said before, (actually, my lawyer said) not many lawyers are going to want to touch this. If it was that easy or a clear "slam dunk," one of the lawyers here would have taken it. The important thing: if there is really any money frozen in the PayPal account.
It's going to come down to what can be PROVEN and how good your lawyer is.
Quoted from Crash:Didn't Fox drop the charges on the condition that he is not producing the games? If so that's a real shame. They could easily ream him for millions in damages and would be Kevin's biggest headache.
Never saw any info saying this
Quoted from Crash:Ben do you have any evidence to back this up?
Pretty sure that was just a supposition on his part.
Quoted from captainadam_21:What is wrong with people?! Do they waive all their HIPPA rights by consenting to this?
No.
Quoted from Crash:Watch what? It's not like he's going to show up.
Yeah, I'd be very surprised if he actually shows up.
I see a default Judgment coming.
Quoted from Enaud:But collecting is like getting blood from a turnip. I'll have to wait 21 days file more legal forms to have a discovery of property made. Then the court will force liquidation of assets. So, this time next year, we might get a resolution, if we're lucky.
If I can hook up with the detective I'm going to pursue a criminal arrest if I don't get a settlement.
You would want to do a Judgment Debtor exam. He will be required to appear for that. If he doesn't, a bench warrant can be issued for his arrest (at least in California).
This is a very useful tool.
Quoted from Enaud:Next Tuesday. I'll be there. I hope Kevin will...
So, today was the day. Did Kevin show up? What happened?
Quoted from Enaud:Kevin's criminal investigation is concluded without findings.
He says he can get back on track with production and/or refunding as necessary.
Production?
PRODUCTION?
WTF is going on here??
Quoted from labnip:50+ people are still in on getting the Predator pin and have let Kevin know. They are still in production.
lol
Quoted from Kcpinballfan:If this guy is really making these under the table I can't do anything but shake my head at this point. I just want my money back. Im not sure how this isn't a criminal activity if he hasn't refunded everyone that's asked for it? Is this not theft of some sort? I asked for a refund 4 months ago and still no response or refund. I guess the crook wins. I don't have money or time to go to small claims in Michigan. You win Kevin, good job thief.
If he is, in fact, making these under the table, it is criminal activity. And any buyer who proceeds under these circumstances does not have clean hands either.
Quoted from zeddex:An official statement from Fox licensing would seemingly shut down this tactic pronto.
Time to get The Anon Group© involved again!
Quoted from KeithinMI:I just find the offer for attorney representation at this time to be a bit offensive. Pardon me. The legal work to conclude that refunds are due is done. The issue now is refunds to customers, if in fact any money is even there. I don't like the idea of an attorney coming in and collecting fees at this juncture, for work that has already been concluded. Refunds are due. You can make reference to my small claims court ruling. The issue is getting refunds disbursed, not proving wrongdoing.
Make a call to Kevin's attorney and ask him yourself. You don't need someone to represent you to find out if his attorney plans to work on getting the refunds processed to you. You'll save yourself some money there if you do.
You can make an effort yourself instead of relying on others to do it for you.
(Sorry if that offends you. But, I've had enough of this idea of getting someone else to do the work for me.)
Sorry, but this is not accurate.
Your judgment in a small claims matter has no bearing on anyone but you and Kevin Kulek. Nobody else was a party to that lawsuit. Nobody else can collect on that judgment except you.
Everyone else needs a judgment against Kevin as well, unless they want to take the risk that he will just voluntarily give them a refund. You know, like he said he would do and planned on having them all sent out many weeks ago now.
Quoted from Razorbak86:And Kevin's lawyer works for KEVIN... NOT the Predator buyers.
lol
Yeah, I forgot that part. To say that "Kevin's attorney is charged with the task of refunding customers" is definitely not something that a Judge ordered.
Kevin's attorney only has a fiduciary duty to Kevin. Not the people that Kevin screwed.
Quoted from Trekkie1978:Maybe the lawyer realized what he was defending.
Nah. That's not going to matter after he accepted the case and he's getting paid.
I agree with others, it is very likely Kevin stopped paying his attorney, or couldn't pay him any further so he dismissed him. Which means that Kevin is now representing himself, and has a fool for a client.
Quoted from Crash:Will the court assign him an attorney at any point?
Absolutely not. This is not a criminal case.
Quoted from flynnibus:Worst case is someone will interview pinchilli where he got the game, from who, and what he paid. Court and dispositions only come into play when someone wants to get the dirt in front of the jury. If the guy just bought the game from someone... there is nothing to tell, and you don't bring things without any purpose into the courtroom.
That's depositions, internet law guy.
Quoted from Warbound:If you were in a Walmart parking lot and were offered that pin, on the spot, for $10...you would have said no? I do not believe that for a moment friend
Stop projecting.
I wouldn't have bought it either. Not a chance. It's simply not worth risking my bar license to do something so stupid.
Quoted from flynnibus:Congrats... you've been promoted to Captain of the Spelling Police!
Nice try, but we all know that wasn't a spelling error.
Quoted from flynnibus:It's called blind typing... while at work and usually distracted. But keep hanging onto a typo that if it makes you feel better. Do you have something to actually counter the point... or no?
I'd love to take the time to respond in detail, but I'm running late for a Disposition!
Quoted from pmWolf:Which is why I'm really, really curious to know who knows this guy IRL.
He seems pretty well connected, and apparently travels from MA to MI...but so far, PinChili is the only person who knows him at all?
Pete
Maybe you could send him a message directly, asking him to contact a couple of the people who know him IRL who are also Pinside members, and have those members contact you for validation.
If you get no response, I'd just assume that he is PinChili.
Quoted from Warbound:He would have taken it for $10. If for any reason to sell it on C.L. and then split the proceeds to victims..or maybe pay Keith a bone. Jeesh, everyone here would have bought it...for the right price. Soooooo, Pincili did nothing that we would not have done. To many drama queens in Predator threads...always has been. If you have a different opinion than the majority here, you get pounded. Then banned if a mod wants to at any time. Shame. Example. So I "thumbs down" a post in this thread! So what! It is a Punside feature for all to use, for whatever reason they wish! It took about 1 hour before I got called out and pounded for doing a thumbs feature. Drama queens looking for fights. It is sad that Predator threads are always like this...always!
This post, and others in this thread, have Pinchili's (aka Craz4Pin aka PinRebel aka ...) name all over it.
Warbound doesn't list a location, but he listed a pin for sale in Michigan. Doesn't PinChili live in Michigan?
Edit:
And Warbound talks about his Judge Dredd in this post. JD is also listed as being owned by PinChili in his profile
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/for-sale-judge-dredd-bally-1993-1997#post-2464145
Quoted from Nibbles:Not one that straight up lied to a federal agent *allegedly*
That is one idiotic lawyer, if that really happened. I seriously doubt that Kevin Kulek is worth losing your bar license over.
Quoted from dgoett:dishonest? YES. Fraudulent? YES.
Chapter 7 does not apply.
I believe the burden will now shift to the creditors to prove that fraud was involved. That involves legal pleadings and hearings, and unfortunately additional legal fees that go along with it.
Quoted from Whysnow:Agreed. He answers the phone and I spoke with him last week.
For those of you that have hired him, I suggest giving him a call for an update. Some good things as of late.
Those civil lawsuits are now all stayed based on his filing in the bankruptcy court.
Quoted from fosaisu:So Kevin was actually deposed in the civil case? Surprising that that wasn't mentioned in this thread when it happened. Have you seen the transcript of Kevin's depo? Based on how poorly he performs even in non-confrontational interviews, I imagine that would be a fun read.
Indeed.
Anyone who was part of the lawsuit who hired the attorney mentioned previously in this thread would be entitled to see a copy of the deposition transcript (if it actually took place).
Quoted from cfh:To me the guys that share responsibility for downing the project are the yahoos in Texas that brought this to Fox Studios attention. It is clear that Kevin could make the game.
Complete nonsense.
Quoted from ForceFlow:Building even just one custom game from scratch is an accomplishment in and of itself. Between that and the assurances that licensing was above-board, there was a level of comfort that the games would be produced, like Tiger said.
Poor decision making, poor money management, and all the lies were some of the things that made this whole thing collapse like a house of cards.
Despite his assurances, there were all kinds of red flags being raised long before it was confirmed he didn't have the license.
Of course many of us who dared to raise these issues in Predator threads were constantly labeled as trolls, haters or troublemakers and were even banned from threads. Hell, even today you have someone posting it was partly the fault of people who brought the truth to light for bringing the project down.
The "level of comfort" for this pin ever being made, considering the objective facts at the time, never should have been very high....for a magnitude of reasons, all previously discussed in predator threads.
I almost hate to even bring this up for fear of some feeling like it's pouring salt in the wound, but I think the inference that there was almost no reason to be skeptical of this project from the start is incorrect. IMO.
...and yet I can only imagine the bashing that people here would have given Stern if they came out and claimed that Skit-b didn't have the license for Predator.
"Stern is trying to kill the competition" and "they have no morals, this is BS tactics" etc.
Quoted from TigerLaw:Rick proports to be and holds himself out as a giant "moral fiber" guy
Quoted from frolic:Many, many times. For many, many accounts. He's already been let back after promising to change, then getting perma banned again. Then of course is the fact that links to his websites were also banned. Apparently he's found the backdoor way to pinside, just pretend you're a woman.
It really is amazing to me that he has been allowed to continue to post here. I guess it would be too much to ask for Robin or the mods to chime in on this issue, because it really is an embarrassment to Pinside.
Quoted from flynnibus:The answer is that there has been some sort of plea deal obviously. They let him crawl back.
Is this your assumption or has there been some type of official statement from Robin or a moderator?
Quoted from Mr68:BTW. My real first name is Kim and I'm a heterosexual male. I also shave my head bald. Feel free to poke fun at either or both of those items. Everyone else does.
Hahahahaha!!! You are heterosexual!!!!!! Hahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quoted from vid1900:1000 Pinsiders bought WOZ from a very non-established company, that had to be bailed out twice, was years late, yet finally did deliver the goods.
What were they thinking?????????????????
Are we really comparing Jack and his reputation and experience in the coin op business with Kevin F'in Kulek?
Aside from that, while it obviously worked out for those people in the long run, you indeed could ask "what were they thinking" for the very reasons that you state.
Both were risks. One of them was obviously a (much) bigger risk than the other.
Quoted from DanQverymuch:Joking about causing physical harm, leaving him and his kids homeless, sending him to PMITA prison, making "the pain last longer," etc., hasn't been, isn't and never will be funny, or even justified. Makes me feel dirty just reading that crap.
Purveyors of "parking lot justice" would deserve prison more than the person to whom the "justice" was applied. And they would be more likely to get it! Again, civilized society.
Even hoping he lies to the bankruptcy court and does time for perjury is misplaced.
He messed up, panicked like a cornered rat, lied, owes you money. Get your money back if you can, fine. That ought to be the extent of it.
Don't dishonor yourselves over his dishonorable deed.
Let me guess how much money you lost in this endeavor:
Zip?
Quoted from DanQverymuch:No criminal liability will be pursued regarding the game as it would be impossible to prove original intent to defraud. He did have a working prototype.
Just an incompetent who, surprise surprise, messed up, then messed up more in response.
*Impossible* to prove original intent to defraud? Not true at all. Intent can be proven by his actions and/or inactions. Having a working prototype can actually help prove his intent to defraud, not that he didn't (much easier to get more people to give you money with a working prototype than without one). The fact that he knew he didn't have a license is surely relevant to showing intent to defraud.
Quoted from PoMC:What person or persons snitched on Kevin with regards to him not having the license? Was that ever determined?
No.
Nor has it really been discussed much at all, so we should look into it now!
Quoted from Whysnow:It is actually known whom the person was. Reality is that annonymous person (actually a few people) got their refund before taking the action to 'protect' the rest of the community. The annonymous group (allegedly) also includes a well known PR individual at Stern.
While Kevin is the person at fault, let's not change history that the person that helped bring it all down was sure to take care of themsleves and their friends before pulling the personally vindictive stunts they pulled.
5 thumbs up for this?
Really?
Quoted from jar155:tl;dr - it was a scam from the get go, unfortunately it got exposed before the majority of people could get their money back in hand. Kevin is 100% to blame for all that happened.
That doesn't even make sense.
If it was a scam from the get go, then the majority of people were never going to get their money back.
Quoted from jasonp:https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/why-are-you-buying-skit-bs-predator
Take a look at the above thread Kevin was the man who could do no wrong...Crazy!!
He had plenty of enablers, that's for sure. Some of them were certainly more vocal and adamant than others in terms of shouting down the naysayers. The king of Predator/Kevin Kulek enablers goes by the name of Whysnow. The same guy who seems to place as much blame on the so called "whistleblowers" as he does Kevin Kulek.
Quoted from jar155:I worded that poorly. Unfortunately people weren't able to get their money back before Kevin realized the scam was exposed and went into hiding with it.
Exactly.
Quoted from o-din:Kudos to those that were wise enough to do their own research about the license and get their money back.
Kudos to them?
No, Whysnow says that they are all assholes! They should not have done their homework because that is what exposed the whole sham. Ignorance would have been much better for everyone involved. You know, so they could have paid even more money to Kevin as "production got closer."
Quoted from damageinc55:Call me an asshole, but if I investigated a program that I was invested into, and found it to be a house of cards, first thing I would do is pull my money.
Anyone who says differently is either lying, or an idiot.
Quoted from rosh:We all know whysnow is extremely passionate about most things pinball related, and we all know he was a very vocal supporter of Kevin, if not the most vocal supporter, but he has also apologized many, may times for that and has been very active and vocal in the fight against Kevin. He will always carry that 'label' of supporter/enabler, but I don't think we need to bring it up each time he gets vocal again (although Hilton, maybe it would be a good idea to not get involved in debates about the past actions of others relative to this, other then Kevin, if you don't want your past actions to once again be brought to the top of the discussion).
When the issue of the "anonymous group" is raised and people start throwing blame at them instead of (or in addition to) Kevin Kulek, you can be sure that Whysnow's name will also be raised. Why? Because *if* the "anonymous group" has any blame in this for their actions or inactions, then the same logic can certainly be used to say that Whysnow also has plenty of blame to share. How many people kept their money invested in Skit-B based on Whysnow's overbearing declarations of confidence in Skit-B, while slamming any and all posters who questioned the viability of Skit-B and whether there was a license, or whether the pin would ever be delivered?
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I'm still having a hard time understanding what you are getting at.
Can you clarify the point you are trying to make?
Lawyers = bad
Quoted from Brickshot:Where exactly did he do this crying? On here? And who all exactly did he claim were bad guys? I missed reading some early stuff I guess.
Doesn't the above document suggest that he fully cooperated and apparently answered all questions Keith had? It says he testified, right? Perhaps Keith can clarify for everyone what he testified his role and relationship with Skit-B was or is?Again, Just for clarification, you're not actually suggesting he did something illegal are you and the law is coming after him personally? If so, which law was broken exactly?
Hi Tim!
Tim, I actually think you are a fairly smart guy. You can be articulate, and you have given plenty of opinions on various things related to Pinball that I have previously (and even currently in other threads) agreed with.
But dude, when I said earlier in the thread:
Quoted from RobT:lol
Tim Fife is an idiot.
I really meant it....at least in terms of you buying one of the Predator prototypes. What the hell were you thinking? Saying that you "collect all kinds of pinball paraphernalia" doesn't cut it. Never mind the ethical questions, just from a purely legal standpoint did you consider the ramifications of doing this? It was obvious that anyone who was determined to have this kind of asset could be caught up in the lawsuit.
Was it worth it?
Quoted from Brickshot:From a legal standpoint I honestly believe 100% a person had a right to legally buy it (especially since it was bought second hand and not from Kevin). Still do.
Quoted from Brickshot:In the end, I'm only losing sleep because of a newborn child. Not because of this. If the courts actually demanded I return the game and EOD parts (which are worthless now)? No problem. Remember, it wouldn't be Kevin I would be looking to recoup my money from so I'm sure it won't be an issue.
Congrats on the newborn. You have enough stress in your life with that on it's own. Wouldn't you be better off just turning over the machine and moving on?
Quoted from TigerLaw:The argument, as I would interpret it, is Kevin was santatizing items to get them out of what would be the bankruptcy estate and converting them to cash that he could easily spend before and during his bankruptcy proceedings.
Uh, isn't that what he said?
Quoted from Razorbak86:Keith is claiming that the transfer of the pinball machines by Kevin Kulek (Debtor) to Tim Fife (Defendant) was made with the actual intent to hinder, delay, or defraud creditors.
Quoted from Firebaall:Should not the lawyer working for the Pinsiders that retained him be looking into this angle? A Fox rep should be deposed to determine what information was brought to them, and who made that contact. Wouldn't that be a pip of info...
That could easily put those slippery eels, that received refunds, into the group of insiders. If that happens, they would be liable to pay back the bankruptcy trust due to the 1 year vs 90 day classification.
.
Quoted from Firebaall:Well, here's the issue then...
By slowly leaking out the information: "to key members of the hobby and selected Pinsiders (mainly trusted & respected Immortals, as well as Moderators, etc)."
They created a situation of insider information that stretches a lot further, and makes MANY others liable under that 1 year limitation. That would lead to the question, "Were there any refunds made between June 3, 2015 - June 3, 2016?". If so, Each of those is subject to inspection. Interviewing the Fox rep is required here to discover the identity of the "AG" contact. I'd also be curious as to which Moderators were given this information...because if that is true, that's a concern as well.
This is not my area of law etc., but I bet that the attorney is not "looking into this angle" because your definition of being an "insider" is simply not accurate.
The AG obtained their information by doing their own homework. They obtained their information from outside sources, not from Kevin Kulek/Skit-B (or anyone inside the company and/or family of Kulek). The information that they obtained, could have been obtained by *anyone* .
I do not believe that people in their position had a fiduciary duty to come forward and share the information that they gathered on their own, again, from sources outside of Kevin/Skit-B.
So none of the pre-order depositors would be considered "insiders" pursuant to the Bankruptcy code, and those refunds are not preferential transfers.
Quoted from Firebaall:I'm guessing that's why what's his name that bought the two machines got deposed, and specifically asked about ties/association with skitb.
Exactly.
Quoted from KeithinMI:Ok. It's Friday. Which means, in my world, only 2 more work days left in the week after today!
Great job at the hearing Keith!
Quoted from jasonp:Can someone find out why he has court in the Toledo area?
I'm surprised that the Judge didn't ask him about that.
Supposedly Kevin had no idea that he could have been arrested or sent to jail until the moment the Judge informed him of that at the hearing.
Yet he talked of the "Internet campaign and hysteria against me" which presumably means that he reads this thread, which also means that he damn well knew of the potential consequences and that a warrant had been issued.
Guy is full of crap.
Damn, I probably just contributed to the "internet campaign and hysteria" against him. 
Quoted from ForceFlow:Obviously, Kevin's options are limited at this point and down to "comply or else".
He was actually already at that point. He just didn't know it apparently.
You're currently viewing posts by Pinsider robt.
Click here to go back to viewing the entire thread.
Wanna join the discussion? Please sign in to reply to this topic.
Great to see you're enjoying Pinside! Did you know Pinside is able to run without any 3rd-party banners or ads, thanks to the support from our visitors? Please consider a donation to Pinside and get anext to your username to show for it! Or better yet, subscribe to Pinside+!
This page was printed from https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-pinside-skit-b-predator-discussion/page/1?tu=robt and we tried optimising it for printing. Some page elements may have been deliberately hidden.
Scan the QR code on the left to jump to the URL this document was printed from.
