At least that was what I was told when I hit my brick wall with PP.

Also, never use paypal linked to your bank account or you will be up sh*t creek without a paddle. Just like me.

Link Paypal to cards only.

Yuuuuup!

What I can't wrap my head around is how a Credit Card Chargeback can be addressed so differently by PP from an ACH Chargeback. It is such a similar process, but PP won't address the ACH Chargeback claim to the seller. It seems to be PP that is my problem, because my bank said they can and have done an ACH Chargeback through an intermediary through to the seller.

I also don't like that to have a 'verified' PP account you have to enter a bank account. They have a new percentage of account completion where the bank account is like 40% - so I fully figured that was the preferred payment method within PP.

I'm probably going to take it up again and see if there is a way through this. Money back like the CC payers sure would be nice.

Bump

In a credit card transaction, there are multiple parties (the Merchant, the Merchant Services Provider, the CC companies and the card holder). In this case, Paypal is the "Merchant". Whatever bank/company Paypal is processing credit card payments through is the "Merchant Services Provider". Then of course there is Visa, AmEx, etc.

There are legal agreements in place all along this transaction chain - and one of the obligations spelled out is who will do what/when in the event of a disputed transaction. You must follow those rules to remain active in the credit card acceptance game.

None of those rules/legal agreements exist in an ACH transaction. You authorize your bank to send money to someone. They do it. You get screwed, it's between you and "someone" and not really an issue for the bank. Sure, they may try to help, but they have no real teeth to get anything done. Good luck though.

They go after the merchant.. in this case Paypal. This is the liability that someone who takes Credit Cards for purchases has to face.

This is why once we started having middle-men for handling credit card purchases (like square, paypal, etc) - things have gotten more complex. Your CC deals with paypal... paypal has its OWN policies for dealing with it's account holders. Paypal is trying to protect IT'S relationship with the credit card companies.. not the relationship with its account holders.. they have millions of them. So Paypal is usually cutthroat with its account holders.. even if you aren't in the wrong.

Hence, why sellers hate paypal.

No matter how often Paypal asks, I refuse to link it to my bank and it has not prevented me from making purchases or receiving money.

It is annoying enough you can't use your credit card if you have money in your paypal account (or at least I have not found a way), and then when that is gone and if you want to do a personal payment, you end up with a fee. Even more annoying is when the split the purchase between what is in your account and a credit card. The last thing I want is them going to my bank account for any reason (I already had one instance of identify theft where the state of new york wiped out my entire bank account (and I don't even live in NY), which fortunately was relatively easy to correct/reverse).

All the better reason to make sure EVERYONE makes a complaint to the detective. For all the fine print that is in your credit card agreements they might not have to honor your chargeback if you did not make a police complaint in a criminal action.
Even if you are getting a chargeback....continue with the process of making the police complaint.

cricket-predator-1.jpg

As Rommy said........if you are a victim please gather the following to report to,the detective in midland. Please don't wait. Please call,him right away.
1- all your details, DOB, address, how much you paid, when, how much, in a one page summary email. Include dates! Declare yourself a victim of KKK and here are my details.
2- evidence of any contact you had with KKK - notes from phone calls, recorded messages, and emails. Attach all this to your email.
3- another email attached labeled Web Links where you put links to incriminating videos, podcasts, and websites. There will be lots of duplication but don't worry about that just do it.
Don't lay down for this! Call the detective! Gather info and email the detective ! That information is bullets in his gun.
Right now, as we speak, KKK is relaxing. He DOES have counsel now. They are taking the position that NONE of this is criminal, it's all civil. His position is he never lied, never defrauded. Don't let him do this to us. Help prove to that detective what a rat bastard snitch Kevin Kulek is.
And please do not forget to put the the exact dates you sent in money, the dates Kevin promised blah blah blah, and what Kevin's responses were to any questions (and when). This might not seem like important information right now but when it comes to the trial stage this is the type of information that that will destroy his defense. Make sure all of that information gets to the detective.

Bump

Everyone who sent money needs to do this. The only part the detective said he didn't need was the Web Links as he has those already. If your unsure what to send call the detective he's more then happy to talk on the phone and returned my calls promptly.

Just great man. 2.5 years waiting for this shit, then when he can't deliver, keeps all the money. I've got all the fun of owning a pinball machine, without owning a machine.

Hopefully after their little meeting this week, the lawyer advises KK to refund. Probably won't happen though.

I have to imagine that many of the pre-order folks shared personal emails with Kevin. Any claims made in those emails (in regards to licensing, your deposit being safe/secure, etc.) can also be used as evidence. I hope everyone takes the time to review their emails and forward those that are relevant to the detective as well.

^^^^^ This, exactly! ^^^^^

I sent all my Kevin/SkitB correspondence to the Detective to add to the mounting evidence pile.

Was finally able to send all of my info to the Detective today. Hopefully everyone else can find the time as well.

I sent the Detective every email I exchanged (sent or received) with Skit-B. I didn't want to only send relevant, I sent everything - including the emails where I gushed about doing a Launch Party in San Francisco and Los Angeles. I was excited and had it all lined up - well with the exception of a Predator pinball machine.

I figured they should get the full Predator pinball experience.

It's 'counsel.' Goddamned Learning By Phonics!!!!

It's also 'that'. Easy mistake.

bump

Did you guys who just sent something yesterday or today get a different autoreply maybe?

I did not get an auto reply email. I may make a follow up phone call tomorrow.

I can see the "won't discuss ongoing investigations" now.

I just re-listened to this. How did so many get so mesmerized? He was mixing the Kool-Aid and everybody just wanted to believe so bad...in the American Dream. That was his pitch...Some Kids in the Basement can make their dreams come true.

It's not like we were groomed overnight. They had a prototype and charisma. They were regularly on the boards for more than a year. Basically, if he had a license to begin with, there's a good possibility these would have been made, even if they had to outsource production.

license does not = machine.this project was nothing more than a dream..i have read this a few times on other posts on pinside to outsource......what do you think that would do to original selling price?..outsource to who? I don't think other pinball manufacturing companies are waiting for people to walk in off the street with projects..to manufacture and support a project like this takes much more insight,production experience and money than kevin could ever hope to achieve..he never even faced full production with all the problems that go with that ...charisma?? is that the new word their using these days for a bullshitter??

Send me all the parts, I'll put the f*#king machine together myself.

good point already...the time and planning to get parts alone takes more than people really know or understand in most manufacturing projects.you depend on other vendors and their quality and delivery..did he order in lots of 20pcs? 60? are some items back ordered from vendor holding up schedule? was keven the qc guy? lol....while all this going on where is all this being done?.then the phone support..im sure in his little home shop he does not have a full shop with tools..to manufacture a prototype is not cheap or easy...but much harder to produce in numbers.my work experience was based on cleaning up the production mess on the tooling side from machine builders and dreamers like kevin..

Wow, where were you two years ago?

in the hospital with a massive stroke...why? if I would have come on here and given my view I would have been blasted down same as others..im not at all trying to be a "i told you so"...I just wonder why these questions and concerns are not really addressed as a general rule here on pinside..these questions come from my work life before I buy anything..thats why I say this just a dream..i also read thru many posts and see many clear warning signs..this comes from my manufacturing background...no experience with production AT ALL...no factory,no qc.no money of his own....yes even in hospital for 6 weeks 3 more months in rehab end up mostly blind and some brain damage for real but still I could feel this was nothing more than a dream..the end results prove this to be fact..

Because it was a real game with finished code.

People went to the expos, they played it, they liked it.

It was not a Kickstarter, it was a finished game.

Even if Kevin had just assembled 2 a week himself in the garage....

It's amazing that someone so stupid in every other area was able to build a decent original pinball machine from start to finish.

So, if he can't pay refunds in civil court, I wonder if one could get the prototype game as settlement?

divided into 250 equal parts

Hey check out this translite! Only cost me $4,750!

Probably, yeah.

As for the rest of it, I couldn't really tell you. Don't have much knowledge in the pin building world to see that it was an impossible task. I think they had talked about putting ten together every week. It seemed possible to me. I can only speak for myself, but it's hard for me to explain to someone who wasn't in on it why I believed it. When you stretch out all of these posts over a few years, it looks a lot different than going back and reading it all at once, especially knowing what we know now. I guess anyone who was conned thinks how the hell did that happen, but always after the fact. Guess it's kind of in the same ballpark of folks who preorder a Stern that doesn't do great, or not an ACDC or Tron I guess, but defend it because they want to believe it was a good buy.

Can't explain it man. I believed him. Sorry about your stroke.

For the record, I think charismatic folks make the best bullshitters.

...and killers...

I wonder if he or his family could legally sell the prototype after all this, he will definitely need the cash and I guarantee someone would drop a lot of money on it.

i would tend to doubt it...

My guess is that thing would fetch 30k in an auction just here on Pinside. Can't be sold though . . .

you are not serious, are you?

I said it before, I wouldn't be surprised if he was already contacted by some collectors to buy the Predator pin he has. $30k like TigerLaw said could definitely be in the ballpark, if not more

i think he is...

i think he is correct... the chance to own the "one and only" predator machine would be too much for some people to pass up... there are people with VERY DEEP pockets around here...

It would certainly shock me if someone paid that. People paid $20-$25K for Matrix which was actually an awesome game and only a handful were made. I've played Predator. Not so great.

If it does get anywhere close to $30K I'm sure their "Duck Hunt" and "Sonic the Hedgehog" would immediately go up for sale too, lol.

People paying 30k for a pin are not paying for gameplay. They are paying for the story...few games have the story this prototype would have.

It's just like the old saying "The world's best mechanic is not necessarily the best garage owner".

It's kind of a morbid story isn't it? Maybe it would happen, but just not so sure. Although I do think there is a good chance Kevin will try and sell it at some point. He doesn't seem to be bothered by what he can and cannot do legally.

yup... it's not being bought to play at that point... it's a piece of history...

Are you talking about that retheme that a member here did?

Yes, made by the Pinnovating guys. There was more than 1 made.