you agree it's twisted, 'enuff said....lol

Everyone here is twisted in one way or another.

some more than other's ...

All the comedy I need for one night...

Not sure I get what at all would be different had AG revealed what they knew earlier. It would have just caused the exact same reaction that ultimately happened, just a little bit sooner. A rush on kevin then or now wasn't going to suddenly make refunds happen and everyone get their money back. The warning issues were there so very long before the AG thing, so perhaps that just made it be 'real' in peoples minds? There's not one thing in the big pinball news story that hadn't been talked about for months in this same thread so it was basically known what was going on, just a certain level of denial or faith that was hard to let go of until the AG proved beyond any amount of faith what was up was all that truly changed post story. Blame the robber, not the camera that proved him guilty.

The theory is more people would have been able to collect charge backs from their credit card companies or possibly even hit Pay Pal's 180 day window to get their money back.

There is another view to be taken on the timing of their announcement though. Based on everything that's been said to date this machine was never going to make it to production. If that is a true statement and the AG never said anything at all then the folks that were able to successfully able to issue chargebacks may have run out of time as well, so they may have in fact saved that group of people. No matter when the facts were discovered/announced there would still be a pool of people that would be past their 180 day limits. I'm happy for those that have been able to recoup their money and I hope something gets worked out for everyone else that's caught up in this.

Nevermind, I didn't read the previous post chain

Nobody would have listened, and wire possibly 'the group' would have been ridiculed. The truth isn't the most popular view on pinside.

People dont care about others... Only their situation. Logic doesnt apply...

The AG people don't matter.

At the end of the day, they actually did everyone who had ordered a Predator a huge favor. Not from the sense of being out money (I hope everyone gets a refund), but in the sense of owning stolen merchandise.

Fox would have eventually found out about the game. Their lawsuit would start with Kevin, but not end with him. The next targets would be the 250 Predator owners. Fox would come after you as well.

Stealing is stealing. There's no way to defend Kevin, so please stop going after the AG. At the end of the day, they saved you from the Fox legal team. Fox would not only want the machine, but they would certainly want damages, and don't forget the legal costs you would incur.

The law is very clear. Stolen property is stolen property. It doesn't matter if you obtain it legally.

There's only one person in this whole fiasco who doesn't care about the 250 people…Kevin. He lied, and lied, and lied, and lied, and lied. He knew what he was doing. No adult can claim ignorance in this situation.

Quite frankly, I wish I was part of this community several years ago. The biggest red flag was when Kevin claimed to be a nonprofit. My background is in accounting/finance. That was the biggest sign that he was running a scam on everyone.

Honestly, not to defend Kevin but it might be that he was really just very stupid.

If he was running a scam, he did a terrible job. Why still be in this country if you have a million or so dollars collected?

Why order parts for any games at all, let alone boxes of otherwise useless skulls?

Take the money and run...

Maybe he was even stupid about being stupid... I am not sure what that means but it seems to sum of the spirit of his disorganized actions and broken promises.

They would have never found out.

Predator has been on the web for years, Kevin hit up all the major pinball shows, gave speeches, had websites up, posted videos on Youtube - Fox never knew.

Even if Fox found out years from now, there is no practical way for them to go after the owners.

- "Hello, this is Fox, we have information you own a unlicensed pinball machine from Scat-B !".

"I'm sorry, it burned up years ago. Can you believe those things were not UL listed???"

- "Ummmm......OK, thanks for your time".

Well, as the story goes, the reason all the websites were scrubbed was because of a Cease & Desist, so there was some awareness by Fox. But we don't know if Kevin's game of keeping things on the down low after that would have succeeded, especially with a 2 year+ production build.

That's not how it works. They would show up at your door with police.

My understanding is copyright infringement is copyright infringement. It is similar to theft but is legally different from theft. I'm not sure being in possession of material that is a copyright infringement would be treated the same legally as being in possession of stolen property...I actually think it would be treated substantially different.

Notation: I am not an IP attorney. I know no more than a layman on this point.

LOL, no they would not. If you don't let them in your house, I'm sure the police would sit three units on your house for full 24hr surveillance too to make sure that pin doesn't leave your house without them knowing it.

The only thing I agree with you on is the smugness.

Had I been in their shoes I probably would have done exactly the same and gone through some sort of 3rd party to break it like they did with PBN. The reason is simple: if I'm wrong, for ANY reason (technicality, license info lost in giant multi-national company, lawyer just being a d***, etc) then now I potentially get sued for killing the project.

Here's the kicker: even if I'm *right* I can still get sued. That happens all the time to shut people up.

Now, why am I going to take on that risk for YOU? It's great you like pinball, but I'm not going to risk getting sued for hundreds of thousands of dollars because we have that in common, sorry. I'm not going to risk being the most hated guy on Pinside ever because I just killed a project run by this hard-working 'merican in ol' downtrodden Michigan just trying to share his love of pinball. They'll be writing country songs for him, and gangster rap for me. F that.

The signs of license trouble have been there for a long, long time. They acted on that evidence, you didn't.

Yes they would. PayPal, credit card companies and bank would be court ordered to hand over all the information. The only thing not traceable is cash. The other 3 leave a trail. It would not be hard for Fox to find out who the owners of the machine are.

Think back 15 years ago to Napster. Napster had a court order to hand over the information. Here, it is even easier, because PayPal, credit cards and bank have zero reason to delete any information.

They will show up to your door with a warrant. It happened to people who downloaded songs. Don't think it can't happen to you.

And I take exception with "downtrodden" Michigan. We are not in need of sympathy.

^ We have some of the finest manufacturers and engineers the world has ever known. I'm not mad at you though.

Yea right! No due process, no suphoena.........ect......
I have spoken to law enforcement about this case and that is NOT how it works.

Why are guys even arguing about this? Kevin lied about having the licence and was essentially gambling/risking your money by doing so.

END OF F'CKN STORY.

Story ain't over until he refunds the money like he said he was going to do, or Nasty Nate is turning him into a human whistle when a strong wind blows through the yard...

The police can have my knock off merchandise when they pry it from my cold, dead hands. Ive seen them all over my community collecting unlicensed merchandise. I'm just waiting for that knock on my door. It could get ugly.

LOL - that is all the police have time for, driving around town breaking down doors to recover bootleg iPods, fake hologram "UL listed" Christmas Lights, fake PS3s and of course, my Spader-Man doll......

spader man.jpg

Willing to die over knock off goods is... interesting. Why not take a stand on something that matters?

Civil Assest Forfeiture, cops killing 100 or so civillians in the month of March alone etc...

Goods that rip off other people's IP is seriously the flag you are going to plant on a hill and die for?

It was a joke. I've never seen police in my neighborhood collecting unlicensed merchandise. And I don't ever expect them to either. I will add a smiley emoticon to my original post.

I remember when the SWAT team took down Mcdowell's. Sad day.

Fair enough

I honestly pictured a "real 'murican" bunkered down with grenades strapped to his chest and green tipped ammo strewn about ready to die for his wife's guccini watch.

That things have got that bad that does not seem completely implausable is kind of sad.

Napster.

The music industry went after users for their intellectual property.

I just got back from the comic shop and got the promotional giveaway as seen below... It looks like the licensing and making money off the Predator name is going strong. I know Dark Horse has used them for years, but didn't realize they would go into Rivendale!

Brad

archie_vs_predator.png

The industry went after people who were knowingly distributing their IP.

-

If you bought a Predator, believing that it was a licensed product, Fox is not going to come to your house and take it from you.

Fox has known about Scat-B for over a year, and they have not busted down Keven's door, nor did they show up at any Expo and take the game.

LOL

Which government agency is responsible for intellectual property theft?

The FBI.

I wish people would stop acting like it's no big deal.

Call the FBI right now and tell them about Predator pinball.

See if they think it is a big deal.

Star Ship Bally.jpg

HEY!!
...it's not from Star Trek because it has THIS!

388954-i.jpg

I'm not the license holder.

I'm sure Fox has contacted them.

I just don't understand how anyone can defend Kevin.

Twist peoples words much?!

What makes you so sure about that?

The only one defending Kevin is you, with your ignorant statements.

The rest of us are just trying to educate you how the legal system works in this country.

One of my favorite spins of all-time:

Change your silly New Jersey Devils too, because I'm sure you don't have permission from them or the NHL to be using it.

Stop violating their IP!

And this gets back to the main discrepancy between the reporting of PBN and the claims of the AG. Martin claimed that the C&D was given when the site was scrubbed, but didn't go into great detail about that. The AG claimed that the C&D came after they contacted Fox. The first event happened in Oct 2013, the second happened Dec 2014. It sure would be nice if the PBN follow up article addressed this, if it gets written. It won't help anyone get refunds, but it would really help to resolve a final, clear narrative of how everything went down.

The following isn't addressing your post, Frolic, just the thread in general.

Regardless of whether he could have gotten away with it (assuming he could get them all built), the problem is that he lied to his customers, from the beginning. Put moralism about stealing IP aside, there is considerably far more risk involved with a project when the license isn't in place. If he could get a number of customers to sign onto that risk, no problem. They would know the full risks involved. But he didn't do that, he misrepresented, to be charitable, from the beginning, and he outright lied after he got the full clarity of the C&D, whether that was a year ago or 4-5 months ago.

I really really wish people would quit defending him because their definition of a scam means he had to take the money and leave the country. No one except straw men are making the argument that he was *that* kind of conman. He was a liar who took a HUGE amount of money under false pretenses, and he had good intentions. I have known lots of good intentioned liars in my life. Good intentions don't excuse what he did. He gambled while telling his customers their money was 100% safe, and lost.

I will never understand people who are pissed that the AG blew this up by investigating Kevin's claims (I totally understand being pissed about HOW they did it, as they have been pretty insufferable). If Keven had been upfront with people in the first place, there would have been no AG investigating them. Want proof? Look at pinnivating's Matrix kits. Everyone who bought one knew what they were getting into, and bye and large everyone in the community was supportive. Why? Because they weren't lying about it, and some knowing, non-risk-averse people got some cool games out of it. The blame for people losing money and not getting their games lies solely with Kevin, because he is the one who lied and put everyone's money at risk.

...are you one of the AG?

You are confused. People are mad at kevin. Also mad at AG. One does not negate the other.

I am not. I think they've been pretty insufferable, and I don't buy their moral crusader bullshit either, especially given what I have read about how they were actively taunting Whysnow. I like everyone else have my suspicions about who it may be, but they are just suspicions.

I personally wish they would just come out and own up to it. I get not wanting to be the ones known for "killing the project" and that's why I give them slack for letting PBN vet the story and post it on their timeline, but the continued secrecy is just piss-ant cowardice. Not everyone is gonna like what they did, but their original excuse doesn't hold. Kevin admitted he couldn't build the machines anyway, and that the license "wasn't what he thought it was". So they were right. If you know you were right, just own it.

I know they don't negate one another. I just don't buy being upset because they investigated his claims and found out he was lying. I totally get being pissed at how they went about it. I also get that everyone is pissed at Kevin.