(Topic ID: 108377)

The Official Pinside Kevin Kulek Skit-B Predator Discussion


By Xerico

4 years ago



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There are 18278 posts in this topic. You are on page 136 of 366.
#6751 4 years ago
Quoted from Trekkie1978:

I completely understand doing a pre-order with Jersey Jack, he's been in the business long enough to have full confidence in the game coming out.

Full confidence? I just choked on my frosted mini wheats!.
Don't forget Jack also lied his ass off when collecting money, when holding money and when he was trying to "stave off" a bank run on his own much delayed pin(s).

Jack DID do licensing right. He eventually shipped a pin. However, until he can actually sell one without requiring prepay money, I certainly wouldn't say they are out-of-the-woods yet.

Regardless of the company (Stern, JJP, PPS, Spooky, etc), (mis)using paypal for pre-payment is a BAD idea. Anyone who does it after this fiasco is foolish...

#6752 4 years ago

I was in since the beginning but got out with the $3000 demand. I've read every post. The one thing that i missed or didn't understand is the timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but didn't he wipe the website way before the Ag or Martin said Fox was contacted and he showed up on their radar? Sorry if this was addressed.

-3
#6753 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I certainly wouldn't say they are out-of-the-woods yet.

If anything, I would say JJP is further into the "woods". Considering their second pin was supposed to go so much more smooth it hasn't happened. Originally scheduled for June/July of last year, then pushed back to December (as the movie was pushed back), and now folks are just hoping the game starts shipping in May? That's two and a half years after they started taking pre-orders for it. Taking into consideration the numerous employees they have to pay and the factory costs, how can they not be deep in the red? And isn't there some serious pending litigation against the owner on top of it? I would not sleep well having money tied up with any manufacturer these days.

#6754 4 years ago

PayPal actually doesn't earn interest from what I read.

#6755 4 years ago
Quoted from bigduke6:

I was in since the beginning but got out with the $3000 demand. I've read every post. The one thing that i missed or didn't understand is the timeline. Maybe I'm wrong but didn't he wipe the website way before the Ag or Martin said Fox was contacted and he showed up on their radar? Sorry if this was addressed.

Here is a timeline in Kevin's own words.

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/predator-updates

#6756 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

PayPal actually doesn't earn interest from what I read.

"Sometimes."

I believe the position paypal takes is that, while it generally does earn interest from balances (very modest in todays market), it does NOT accrue interest when it had funds in "held states."

ebay.com link

#6757 4 years ago
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:

PayPal actually doesn't earn interest from what I read.

PayPal has always made money from users' account balances.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/26/smbusiness/paypal_float.fsb/

In fact, when their service first started out, the "float" was their sole source of money (before they started charging fees).

#6758 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

for starters, paypal would not, and have no rights to invest this money elsewhere...

Back when Paypal was free (yep, I was there in the beginning), they told everyone that they were able to provide the service for free because they were investing the residual money that was in everyone's accounts.

It was the first question on their FAQ

#6759 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Back when Paypal was free (yep, I was there in the beginning), they told everyone that they were able to provide the service for free because they were investing the residual money that was in everyone's accounts.
It was the first question on their FAQ

I remember....been a paypal user since the 90's when they started. However, back then, the prime interest rate was ~8%.... today its in the 3's.... so they had much more money to make off the float back then.

Btw, just about every company thats holds money, no matter how short the time period, will try to make money from it! nothing wrong with that!

ADP, the largest payroll company in the world, makes money on the 1-3 days it holds payroll between deposit and employee cashing their checks.... Now the money they make on the float is far less than it was a decade ago, but its part of their revenue stream nonetheless.

#6760 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Back when Paypal was free (yep, I was there in the beginning), they told everyone that they were able to provide the service for free because they were investing the residual money that was in everyone's accounts.
It was the first question on their FAQ

I remember getting customer survey calls when they merged with X.com to weigh in on whether "PayPal" or "X Money (or something with X in it)" sounded better.

During that time, Kozmo.com used to visit my office 1... 2... sometimes 3 times a day when we were first starting a company. I miss Kozmo.com!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#6761 4 years ago
Quoted from ledge:

for starters, paypal would not, and have no rights to invest this money elsewhere...

What magical 'lock box' do you think they have for select monies?

Quoted from PEN:You are ignoring the elephant in the room. Regardless of any licence, Skit-B was never going to be able to produce 250 board games, let alone 250 pinball machines.

Quoted from PEN:

You are ignoring the elephant in the room. Regardless of any licence, Skit-B was never going to be able to produce 250 board games, let alone 250 pinball machines.

Agreed, because "building pinball machines is hard."

#6762 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

Full confidence? I just choked on my frosted mini wheats!.
Don't forget Jack also lied his ass off when collecting money, when holding money and when he was trying to "stave off" a bank run on his own much delayed pin(s).
Jack DID do licensing right. He eventually shipped a pin. However, until he can actually sell one without requiring prepay money, I certainly wouldn't say they are out-of-the-woods yet.
Regardless of the company (Stern, JJP, PPS, Spooky, etc), (mis)using paypal for pre-payment is a BAD idea. Anyone who does it after this fiasco is foolish...

Yes, Jack asked for preorder money. That is not a big deal in the case with JJP as a level of trust was built up. Like Trekkie said Jack has been in business a long time and is a trusted seller. That same level of trust didn't exist with Kevin. Oculus did a pre-order method with Kickstarter, Star Citizen has been collecting money (over $70 million) for years for a game that isn't even out yet, etc. Doing pre-orders is the only way a game like WOZ could be made. Jack was open about the entire WOZ development process and provided updates along the way. Some people, all seem to be non WOZ owners, like to keep bringing up the games shipping delays. That's old. JJP shipped all 1,000 WOZ LE's, fixed the LED board light board issue and cranked out code updates every month (sometimes twice) for over 6 months.

It took Jack 3 years to ship WOZ. That's pretty amazing considering they started from scratch and built something that feature and build quality wise rivals if not is better then anything else out there. That would be like a new high end car company starting off and building a vehicle comparable if not better then anything Ferarri offers in 3 years. It's a big accomplishment.

#6763 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

"Sometimes."
I believe the position paypal takes is that, while it generally does earn interest from balances (very modest in todays market), it does NOT accrue interest when it had funds in "held states."
ebay.com link

Right, obviously if they loan money they'll collect interest, but never off held funds, in the US anyway.

18
#6764 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

But he was stealing. Theft of other's IP is not a victimless crime. It's wrong and it's a major problem for studios.

Sadly, there is a strong current of pussyfication in pinball collectors today.

Pinball was a mob-run, quasi-gambling, dick swinging business for the majority of it's lifetime.

When Bally did Space Invaders, they directly stole the monster from the hit movie Alien (ironically, another Fox property, lol).

image-6.jpg

And when Williams did Baracorra, they directly stole the classic H R Giger face:

image-2.jpg

And when Stern did Quicksilver they stole the art from Heavy Metal (the friggin' cover yet!):

0778l.jpg

image-4.jpg

===============================================
===============================================
===============================================

Stealing IP is what made pinball cool.

#6765 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

That would be like a new high end car company starting off and building a vehicle comparable if not better then anything Ferarri offers in 3 years. It's a big accomplishment.

while i applaud jack for getting a machine out the door, let's contain the hyperbole JUST a tad...

#6766 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Stealing IP is what made pinball cool.

Interesting analysis, but when it comes to QuickSilver, you're forgetting the legal precedent that it's not IP theft if you erase the nips.

#6767 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sadly, there is a strong current of pussyfication in pinball collectors today.
Pinball was a mob-run, quasi-gambling, dick swinging business for the majority of it's lifetime.

Stealing IP is what made pinball cool.

Thank you for not calling it "the punk rock era" of pinball....

#6768 4 years ago

lol I'm gonna puke if someone calls Kevin's M.O. that again

16
#6769 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Stealing IP is what made pinball cool.

But you notice none of those games have the same name as the original IP or have the voices and video clips stolen directly from a movie. Not to mention Bally and Stern didn't pretend to have a full license on the IP.

If Skit-B called the game "Hunter" it would have been more along the lines of what you are describing. However, nobody would have given them any money for the pre-order. That's the difference.

#6770 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

If Skit-B called the game "Hunter" it would have been more along the lines of what you are describing.

How about "the demon who makes trophies of men"?

#6771 4 years ago
Quoted from fastpinball:

I remember getting customer survey calls when they merged with X.com to weigh in on whether "PayPal" or "X Money (or something with X in it)" sounded better.
During that time, Kozmo.com used to visit my office 1... 2... sometimes 3 times a day when we were first starting a company. I miss Kozmo.com!
Aaron
FAST Pinball

Same here. I miss getting Ben & Jerry's with just two clicks and a door pull in about 20 mins. and into the wee hours of the night. Didn't even have to look up from my computer. I couldn't have started my first company without Kozmo's support. Where I lived, the only deli closed at 8pm.

#6772 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

But you notice none of those games have the same name as the original IP or have the voices and video clips stolen directly from a movie.

There were no voices or video clips back then to steal for Space Invaders.

Games did not start talking until Gorgar.

-

The main thing that was practical to steal was the image on the backglass, and they brazenly stole it.

fonzy and shirly.jpg

#6773 4 years ago

fonzy !!

#6774 4 years ago
Quoted from woodworker:

But you notice none of those games have the same name as the original IP or have the voices and video clips stolen directly from a movie. Not to mention Bally and Stern didn't pretend to have a full license on the IP.
If Skit-B called the game "Hunter" it would have been more along the lines of what you are describing. However, nobody would have given them any money for the pre-order. That's the difference.

I wonder that NGG was originally a caddyshack themed game that they just went generic?

#6775 4 years ago
Quoted from lowepg:

I wonder that NGG was originally a caddyshack themed game that they just went generic?

Tee'd Off was and guesisng so was NGG

#6776 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

Doing pre-orders is the only way a game like WOZ could be made.

Really? Does Multimorphic have anyone's money right now? Seems to me P3 (whether you like the game or not) is much more innovative and advanced than anything seen before including WOZ.

#6777 4 years ago

And Pinky Tuscadero.

#6778 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Really? Does Multimorphic have anyone's money right now? Seems to me P3 (whether you like the game or not) is much more innovative and advanced than anything seen before including WOZ.

There may be some who have pre-paid, but you can get on the list without providing any money. Money is due when your game is ready for production. Seems the machine and games are continuing to make nice progress, but not sure of when Gerry things production will be starting.

http://www.multimorphic.com/index.php/p3-pinball-platform/pre-orders#

#6779 4 years ago
Quoted from fosaisu:

How about "the demon who makes trophies of men"?

OK, TDWMToM it is.

#6780 4 years ago
Quoted from rosh:

There may be some who have pre-paid, but you can get on the list without providing any money. Money is due when your game is ready for production. Seems the machine and games are continuing to make nice progress, but not sure of when Gerry things production will be starting.
http://www.multimorphic.com/index.php/p3-pinball-platform/pre-orders#

Yes, agreed, which is what my point was. You don't have to have pre-order dollars in order to build an amazing machine (contrary to what Panzerfreak stated.)

After seeing what has happened here with Skit-b I would be more skeptical of JJP than ever. The fact that they had to take pre-order money on game #2 almost two and a half years before the game will actually ship is a bit scary in my mind. I have a hard time seeing how they're solvent long term. Could be true of DPL too but we'll see how many TBL they sell and how fast they can move on #2.

#6781 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Really? Does Multimorphic have anyone's money right now? Seems to me P3 (whether you like the game or not) is much more innovative and advanced than anything seen before including WOZ.

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either. Their platform looks very cool and I'm looking forward to playing one of their games. Heck if it turns out to be great I may buy one. However, just visually and feature wise I prefer a game like JJP with a large LCD in the head and more mechanical toys, insert lighting and artwork spread throughout the game. The large display on the P3 playfield prevents some mechanical features (as well as artwork) in 2/3 of the game. I need to play a P3 game though to properly judge it. The idea of not having to drop $8k on a NIB game ever again and instead spend a couple thousand for new game modules is very appealing.

#6782 4 years ago
Quoted from guarda:

Same here. I miss getting Ben & Jerry's with just two clicks and a door pull in about 20 mins. and into the wee hours of the night. Didn't even have to look up from my computer. I couldn't have started my first company without Kozmo's support. Where I lived, the only deli closed at 8pm.

Nice! Sometimes I would just order an ice tea. I would have gladly paid a delivery fee if it meant they could stay in business and I could keep programming around the clock!

After Kozmo ended, I was spending so much money at the deli next to our office that I ended up taking a few shifts there in the evenings (super slow time at the deli). That meant I had free food and coffee all the time (employee perk because the wage was so low) and I could still get reception to the office network and VPN on my laptop.

Ahh the good ol' days!

Aaron
FAST Pinball

#6783 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either. Their platform looks very cool and I'm looking forward to playing one of their games. Heck if it turns out to be great I may buy one. However, just visually and feature wise I prefer a game like JJP with a large LCD in the head and more mechanical toys, insert lighting and artwork spread throughout the game. The large display on the P3 playfield prevents mechanical features (as well as artwork) in 2/3 of the game.

You can be critical of the game if you want but the point is they have a fully working (and impressive IMO) prototype and will not take customer's money until they're ready to ship them their game. So it can be done. That fact alone deserves some applause IMO. If I had pre-order money with anyone else right now I'd be asking for a refund ASAP until the game was ready to be shipped to me (or picked up).

#6784 4 years ago
Quoted from PinChili:

Yes, agreed, which is what my point was. You don't have to have pre-order dollars in order to build an amazing machine (contrary to what Panzerfreak stated.)
After seeing what has happened here with Skit-b I would be more skeptical of JJP than ever. The fact that they had to take pre-order money on game #2 almost two and a half years before the game will actually ship is a bit scary in my mind. I have a hard time seeing how they're solvent long term. Could be true of DPL too but we'll see how many TBL they sell and how fast they can move on #2.

Have to agree. Scary for sure.

#6785 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either. Their platform looks very cool and I'm looking forward to playing one of their games. Heck if it turns out to be great I may buy one. However, just visually and feature wise I prefer a game like JJP with a large LCD in the head and more mechanical toys, insert lighting and artwork spread throughout the game. The large display on the P3 playfield prevents some mechanical features (as well as artwork) in 2/3 of the game. I need to play a P3 game though to properly judge it. The idea of not having to drop $8k on a NIB game ever again and instead spend a couple thousand for new game modules is very appealing.

Not to hijack the Skit B thread to talk about the P3, but there are a lot of misconceptions in this post.
The P3 allows for the same kind of art and features as a traditional machine, you just have to think differently about how you engineer those features. Art can be identical to a traditional game, and you can have the added benefit of making it interactive and dynamic. Mechanical features need to be floated above the pf, not under the pf. The truth it that most games put almost all of their mechanical features in the back 3rd of the playfield, but for those designs where you want to bring some features forward, The P3 allows you, the game designer, to do that.

Here is a video I helped Gerry with that really illustrates just how versatile the platform is.

#6786 4 years ago

I played it a few times at TPF last year and again this year and really enjoyed it. There are some very clever ideas being incorporated here and in a year's time, it is much improved. It will take me a few more plays to get used to the "virtual" feel of this hybrid pin. It is quite interesting.

#6787 4 years ago

yes, p3 is the shit. The most revolutionary pinball to date, and the one to bring pinball to that next level. Just wish it wasn't so damn expensive.

#6788 4 years ago
Quoted from CaptainNeo:

yes, p3 is the shit. The most revolutionary pinball to date, and the one to bring pinball to that next level. Just wish it wasn't so damn expensive.

When there are multiple titles available, the cost per game will be smaller... You only have to buy the cabinet once!

#6789 4 years ago
Quoted from galaxian:

Kevin is a registered vendor for Michigan Pinball Expo. Maybe you should talk to him there?

You sure about that? Or are you going off the information here (which looks like it was for the 2014 show):
http://www.mipinball.com/?p=893

#6790 4 years ago
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:

You sure about that? Or are you going off the information here (which looks like it was for the 2014 show):
http://www.mipinball.com/?p=893

Yes. Notice the 2014 at the top of the page. Surely no one thinks he will be at a show? Cue the don't call me Shirley joke.

#6791 4 years ago

So if the game was called Predator, did that make us 'predatory lenders?'

#6792 4 years ago
Quoted from PanzerFreak:

No and they haven't shipped any games yet either.

But P3 is NOT taking preorder and not asking for $ 2 years in advance and I respect Gerry for that.

#6793 4 years ago
Quoted from jlm33:

But P3 is NOT taking preorder and not asking for $ 2 years in advance and I respect Gerry for that.

he also doesn't live in his mommy's basement

#6794 4 years ago
Quoted from labnip:

he also doesn't live in his mommy's basement

C'mon, you can't make fun of someone who is living in their mom's basement if the name of their "company" is Some Kids Living In Their Mom's Basement.

#6795 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

C'mon, you can't make fun of someone who is living in their mom's basement if the name of their "company" is Some Kids Living In Their Mom's Basement.

Hehehe...

Someone needs to start a company called: Livdbt-R
Live in van down by the River

image.jpg

#6796 4 years ago
Quoted from PEN:

Yes. Notice the 2014 at the top of the page. Surely no one thinks he will be at a show? Cue the don't call me Shirley joke.

I have updated the page to reflect that Skit-B will not be a vendor this year. Generally we get the same vendors every year but many of them don't officially confirm until the week of MPE (usually Monday). So, technically, I'm still waiting on final confirmations for this year but Skit-B isn't one of the vendors I'm waiting to hear from (as you could probably guess).

#6797 4 years ago

im surprised their/ his website is still up.

#6798 4 years ago
Quoted from vid1900:

Sadly, there is a strong current of pussyfication in pinball collectors today.
Pinball was a mob-run, quasi-gambling, dick swinging business for the majority of it's lifetime.
When Bally did Space Invaders, they directly stole the monster from the hit movie Alien (ironically, another Fox property, lol).
image-6.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Stealing IP is what made pinball cool.

I think Bally did get sued Space Invaders. They stopped producing the game (even though a lot were made) and paid Fox a license fee based on the number of machines already sold.

#6799 4 years ago

tumblr_looxbh32WG1qdvqkoo1_500.jpg

#6800 4 years ago

McDowell's does make a tasty burger!
image.jpg

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