OT: I'm in Australia right now and Arnie is doing real estate website ads:
(Topic ID: 108377)
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Quoted from spfxted:If this was a total scam from the start wouldn't Kevin have removed the money from PayPal as soon as it came in?
Semantics. Again, which term would you prefer to use instead of "Scam" to describe someone trying to fund their start up and fledgling dream pinball designer career using Stolen IP and lying to their customers about it, even after they got caught. Obviously you view the word "Scam" to only mean someone stealing your money and running off to an island, so tell me what we should call it so we can finally quit the whole "It is a scam because he lied/It isn't a scam because he had good intentions" argument.
Quoted from sd_tom:OT: I'm in Australia right now and Arnie is doing real estate website ads:
» YouTube video
The way things are going for his career he might be willing to star in the movie....
Quoted from mcluvin:Did you read Blondetall's post? Did you read mine? Obviously not. Who the hell would want to deal with all that she described? Doing something simple with vendors at the start protects from a whole lot of pain later on for everyone including mods. I dare say just knowing there is some basic vetting process would scare any true scammers away.
Read. Think. Post.
You think there's some basic boilerplate that will filter out scammers, and that's tremendously naive.
Half the people who make customs or small runs of mods would be forced out. Or maybe they're in a special category not held to the same standards? But wait, mod maker X has made a hundred of those, are they now in the "big boy" category? Oh wait, all the Euros say vendor X screwed them but all the US customers are happy, and they have all the proper paperwork. Scam, or not?
Further, your burden of proof is not the same as mine. Wait, I already said all this in another post but you can't, or won't, get it. "How can Pinside tacitly endorse company X without a copy of their financials? They're drowning in debt, I tell ya!"
So I will leave you now in your world where the bad guys tick a check-box that says "I'm legit" and you get all warm and fuzzy inside that your money is safe.
Quoted from swampfire:I think some people are confused. Infringing a patent or other IPR is not a crime; infringement is always handled in civil court. It might bankrupt you, but you won't be wearing orange. However, claiming to have a licensing agreement when you don't is Fraud; that is clearly a crime.
There is criminal copyright infringement for willful infringement. No clue if it would apply here, but it does exist.
Quoted from Sjsilver:Semantics. Again, which term would you prefer to use instead of "Scam" to describe someone trying to fund their start up and fledgling dream pinball designer career using Stolen IP and lying to their customers about it, even after they got caught. Obviously you view the word "Scam" to only mean someone stealing your money and running off to an island, so tell me what we should call it so we can finally quit the whole "It is a scam because he lied/It isn't a scam because he had good intentions" argument.
I vote for calling it, an "oopsies"
Quoted from foxct:There is criminal copyright infringement for willful infringement. No clue if it would apply here, but it does exist.
I think you're right, otherwise there's no way to punish people for selling DVD copies.
EDIT - YES, you're right: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2319.
You learn something new every day.
Quoted from spfxted:If this was a total scam from the start wouldn't Kevin have removed the money from PayPal as soon as it came in?
who says he didn't?
Quoted from jonnyo:So I will leave you now in your world where the bad guys tick a check-box that says "I'm legit" and you get all warm and fuzzy inside that your money is safe.
In his defense, it literally took the smartest man in the world to overcome such a system in idiocracy, and had he not, the world of 2505 would never have seen Not Sure escape from prison and go on to solve their crop crisis with toilet water and follow Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as President of these great United States.
Toronto, ON
Quoted from gweempose:Let me set the record straight. Pinside was not privy to any information beyond what was in the emails that were circulating from the anonymous group. These were the same emails that were apparently sent to many people in the community, and I'm guessing were forwarded to countless others. We chose not post these emails on Pinside for the same reason that nobody else posted them on Pinside. At the time, there was simply no way to know if the claims were legit. To make it even more confusing, none of the emails were sent directly to us. They were all forwarded to us second hand, making it even more difficult to discern if anything had been altered. We attempted to ascertain whether or not the information in the emails was factual, but we were unable to do so. The emails were written by an anonymous source, so it's not as if we could call them up on the phone and ask them to corroborate the story. Naturally, we reached out to Kevin, but he would not respond to any of our inquiries.
The bottom line is that we were just as much in the dark about this as everyone else. Even within our small group, there was disagreement about what was really going on. Since we could not verify the information, our hands were essentially tied. It is our practice not to officially endorse anything on Pinside that isn’t backed by evidence. This applies to everything, not just this situation. It should also be pointed out that most of the allegations made in the anonymous emails made their way on to Pinside anyway. We did not delete these posts or in any way attempt to control the flow of information. We just couldn’t officially take a position without all the facts.
"Naturally, we reached out to Kevin, but he would not respond to any of our inquiries."
Don't you think it was a serious cause for concern that Kulek didn't give a reply to you, the moderators of Pinside, writing to him about being a fraud?
His silence should have been loud enough in this instance.
Quoted from herbertbsharp:who says he didn't?
Oh, ok...I thought someone here said PayPal said funds were frozen...my bad....never mind... 
Quoted from sd_tom:OT: I'm in Australia right now and Arnie is doing real estate website ads:
» YouTube video
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2723694/You-number-Arnold-Schwarzenegger-mistakes-BEARDED-barista-woman-latest-real-estate-ad-Down-Under.html
That's pretty funny.
Quoted from nintendo:*Edited due to complex language*. Some people can't read between the lines!
You and Hilton good buddies?
Quoted from Sjsilver:In his defense, it literally took the smartest man in the world to overcome such a system in idiocracy, and had he not, the world of 2505 would never have seen Not Sure escape from prison and go on to solve their crop crisis with toilet water and follow Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as President of these great United States.
Quoted from DarkWizard:I vote for calling it, an "oopsies"
I prefer to call it a "My bad, dawg! We cool, right?" (in a Justin Bieber voice.)
I tried to search for something in this thread and I got an error that there were too many replies (upper boundary limit surpassed). I think this thread broke pinside, guys! Robin probably never imagined threads with thousands and thousands of replies.
Quoted from SteveP3:I tried to search for something in this thread and I got an error that there were too many replies (upper boundary limit surpassed). I think this thread broke pinside, guys! Robin probably never imagined threads with thousands and thousands of replies.
Narrow your search, if you search for 'the' as an example, you'll break the search as well.
Quoted from guyincognito:What would you have spent the money on, had Skit-B never announced Predator? Another pin? A motorcycle? A trip to the West Indies? A Vietnam-era Gatling gun in near-mint condition?
This image got 2 "unsafe" tags and has ben hidden automatically, per your settings. un-hidehillary-clinton-shrug-ap.jpg 2
Let's not pollute Pinside with pics of that treacherous vampire.
Quoted from jonnyo:You think there's some basic boilerplate that will filter out scammers, and that's tremendously naive.
Yeah, I think so. Kevin was easy enough to filter out. Really don't think I'm the naive one here.
Quoted from jonnyo:Half the people who make customs or small runs of mods would be forced out. Or maybe they're in a special category not held to the same standards?
Do they have a proven track record? If so, they're good right?
Quoted from jonnyo:But wait, mod maker X has made a hundred of those, are they now in the "big boy" category?
Do you have a history of producing product? Was that hard?
Quoted from jonnyo:Oh wait, all the Euros say vendor X screwed them but all the US customers are happy, and they have all the proper paperwork. Scam, or not?
Scam for the Euro guys it would seem. Could that be a warning in the vendor description? Hmm???
Quoted from jonnyo:"How can Pinside tacitly endorse company X without a copy of their financials? They're drowning in debt, I tell ya!"
Standard disclaimer. This info is not an endorsement. Use at your own discretion.
Quoted from jonnyo:So I will leave you now in your world where the bad guys tick a check-box that says "I'm legit" and you get all warm and fuzzy inside that your money is safe.
I'm not sure how you get the impression that's what I think. Wayne with MMR. Kevin with Predator. If it happens again, I guess we as a community just do the same thing we did before huh?
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:Narrow your search, if you search for 'the' as an example, you'll break the search as well.
I was searching for something I posted by using my username as far as I know (I just clicked something to search my posts in the thread), I'm not familiar with some of the new changes on pinside so the activity tab threw me off a bit.
edit : I had clicked on "You have made X POSTS in this topic" at the top under the "you" section (thread header) and it broke.
Quoted from Sjsilver:In his defense, it literally took the smartest man in the world to overcome such a system in idiocracy, and had he not, the world of 2505 would never have seen Not Sure escape from prison and go on to solve their crop crisis with toilet water and follow Dwayne Elizondo Mountain Dew Herbert Camacho as President of these great United States.
I about fell out of my chair laughing 
Quoted from swampfire:I think some people are confused. Infringing a patent or other IPR is not a crime; infringement is always handled in civil court. It might bankrupt you, but you won't be wearing orange. However, claiming to have a licensing agreement when you don't is Fraud; that is clearly a crime.
When someone accepts money under false pretenses it is criminal fraud...simple as that. If you know anything about criminal law you would know that there are "elements" that have to be proven before anyone can be charged criminally. In this case its very simple....he lied about having the legal right to produce the game and accepted money with the understanding that he would build the game. Thats it....done deal....he did the crime and giving the money back will not make the crime go away. I'm sure his attorney is telling him that right now. And he has to pay that attorney with something....
Quoted from mcluvin:[snip weak rebuttals]
Cool, bro. I nominate you to do all this research. Get on it.
Quoted from mcluvin:I'm not sure how you get the impression that's what I think. Wayne with MMR. Kevin with Predator. If it happens again, I guess we as a community just do the same thing we did before huh?
Wayne has a legit business, business license and a track record of supplying product. When refunds were requested they were given. Even after he took pre-order money he was still supplying parts and most said the service was reliable and timely. When the JJP Aussie distributor scam came along, he got involved on the side of the victims.
So... good vendor? Or scammer?
You just gave a perfect example of why this is a bad idea.
Quoted from spfxted:If this was a total scam from the start wouldn't Kevin have removed the money from PayPal as soon as it came in?
The fact that it didn't have a valid license and he portrayed it as such does make it a scam. Not the rob-your-money scam but a scam none the less.
159 posts in this thread since I last opened it up at lunch time. Nothing but the same folks bitching back and forth between one another on was it a scam or wasn't it. Blah, blah, blah. I've come to the point of not even reading people's follow-ups because its been the same BS for 10 pages now. Bottom line agree to disagree..... group hug.
I'm simply looking for a post that says "i got my refund!"
Everything else yall are bitching about is point less in this thread anymore until we see refunds are being issued.
P.S. I got the mysterious emails from Greg Wells as well. I didn't post them as I was concerned the information within that email was true or not. I did send them to anyone that asked, as well as my close friends that were on the pre-order.I figured since Martin was working on a story and he is reputable in our hobby it would best to let him annouce the facts in bis story as he had gathered them. That's not to say that I have kept my mouth shut on this. I was one of the first in here that brought my concerns to the table about this project back in the fall of 2014. To some it was eye opening, to others I was considered a hater with no faith in Kevin and the project. That was never the case. I never wanted this to fail, I have several friends that were in on the game and at this point are hopelessly waiting on their refunds.
Seriously this thread is just cycle and repeat and I am so happy people want to just debate this for pages and pages for what it all actually means.
But what it comes down to is we are out of our own money.
There is very little we can do about it right now apart from the few things people have already mentioned and we are waiting to see how this all plays out.
I haven't bothered to come in here since the pinballnews story broke because what is the point of seeing a bunch of people who have nothing better to do then debate it.
It doesn't get our money back, everything is just spinning wheels and makes us feel worse.
You can all go back to regular programing now.
Predator #6
I don't think there has been any proof the money is actually in the paypal account. I also hope no one is letting Kevin's stall tactics delay any legal recourse they may pursue.
There is no proof refunds are coming. He could easily post a screen shot of correspondence to prove this.
What has Kevin promised that he has delivered? UV? License? Machines? ANYTHING?
Quoted from herbertbsharp:What has Kevin promised that he has delivered?
...a few tee shirts? 
Quoted from Matt_Rasmussen:You and Hilton good buddies?
Naw, I wouldn't hit on your girlfriend.
Quoted from spfxted:...a few tee shirts?
dammit Ted you got me
Since the news dropped we have like hundreds of posts of people just explaining why this was a scam to people who are like "ehh... uhm... so what makes it a scam again? Did kevin do something wrong?" It's probably time to let those people float away. If they don't get it by now, they are probably trolling you. Or they don't understand simple concepts. Either way you're boned.
*LoL as I post this i see like 3 or 4 responses saying the same thing just posted before me.
Quoted from Cobra99:I can tell you a partial refund will not suffice. I paid to get a machine and now no machine will be produced. Nothing but a 100% refund is expected. Why should the buyers be on the hook for the mistakes made by Skit-B.
Sadly this is not an uncommon thing in American business. People pay for a service or item, but the company folds before it can be performed/delivered. Businesses don't just sit on the money you give them. They use it for parts, employee pay, overhead, etc... If the business completely folds then the assets are sold and that money is combined with any cash on hand to divvy out proportionately amongst their creditors (which includes customers without product that was paid for).
Quoted from Whysnow:why don't you go back to emailing FOX to tell them how you think this is all being done under the table and stay out of the conversation unless you have something worthwhile to add?
Bwaaahhhh. Just found this at the beginning of this thread. Whysnow = FANBOY
Quoted from herbertbsharp:dammit Ted you got me
...but that's about it...
Quoted from mcluvin:Yeah, I think so. Kevin was easy enough to filter out. Really don't think I'm the naive one here.
Do they have a proven track record? If so, they're good right?
Do you have a history of producing product? Was that hard?
Scam for the Euro guys it would seem. Could that be a warning in the vendor description? Hmm???
Standard disclaimer. This info is not an endorsement. Use at your own discretion.
I'm not sure how you get the impression that's what I think. Wayne with MMR. Kevin with Predator. If it happens again, I guess we as a community just do the same thing we did before huh?
Just don't pre-order........Done!
Oh, and for everyone who yelling Scam! Scam!, here's some food for thought. If it was a scam, he would have been answering every question and would not have let rumors fester. The worst thing for a scam is doubt. Did he completely mis-manage and just flat out f@&$ up? Absolutely yes. Scam, no.
Quoted from Wahchintonka:Oh, and for everyone who yelling Scam! Scam!, here's some food for thought. If it was a scam, he would have been answering every question and would not have let rumors fester. The worst thing for a scam is doubt. Did he completely mis-manage and just flat out f@&$ up? Absolutely yes. Scam, no.
Dude, no point. I tried to explain my thoughts on this whole thing "NOT" being a scam but really a mismanaged project. Still yields the "victim" responses...
face-palm-star-trek.jpgQuoted from SteveP3:I was searching for something I posted by using my username as far as I know (I just clicked something to search my posts in the thread), I'm not familiar with some of the new changes on pinside so the activity tab threw me off a bit.
edit : I had clicked on "You have made X POSTS in this topic" at the top under the "you" section (thread header) and it broke.
If you click the symbol to the right of quote in the threat tools header, it will show you only those posts from yourself (or whomever you click it on) in the current thread.
Quoted from Wahchintonka:Oh, and for everyone who yelling Scam! Scam!, here's some food for thought. If it was a scam, he would have been answering every question and would not have let rumors fester. The worst thing for a scam is doubt. Did he completely mis-manage and just flat out f@&$ up? Absolutely yes. Scam, no.
Quoted from nintendo:Dude, no point. I tried to explain my thoughts on this whole thing "NOT" being a scam but really a mismanaged project.
Maybe try rebranding it as a "mismanaged project ... with massive lies peppered in from the get-go to attract and retain buyers." Or you could stick with "oopsie" (as someone suggested above).
Quoted from fosaisu:Maybe try rebranding it as a "mismanaged project ... with massive lies peppered in from the get-go to attract and retain buyers." Or you could stick with "oopsie" (as someone suggested above).
If you could do the work for me that would be awesome 
Quoted from gweempose:As I stated before, the information was already out there on the forum. We just didn't feel it was appropriate for Pinside to officially endorse it. While we were attempting to verify the information in the anonymous emails, Kevin said that a big announcement was coming in two weeks. Upon hearing this, it solidified the fact that there was nothing to be gained by Pinside chiming in at that time. The reality is that two weeks wouldn't have made a difference. It's not like we sat on pertinent information for months.
If he didn't give you a simple "yes" or "no" answer, but instead said "wait two weeks", after allegations of fraud from Pinside mods, that means he didn't have the license at that time, and that was serious cause for concern. He took money without a license. Who cares about "wait two weeks"? How can anyone in their right mind see that as an acceptable answer?!
And what happened after two weeks? Did he give you an answer to fraud allegations? No, he didn't.
You should have made a statement to Pinside that Kevin was ignoring your very important emails.
she might have the bigger rack of the two ... but kevin is still the bigger boob 
Quoted from lowepg:scroll back my friend or have you missed the fact that you have more "contributions" here than I do over the last 2 pages... mostly trying to explain how your purchase on a smart phone app somehow connects to the issue of Kevin scamming people.
Plus, I've included boobs, which in almost any context is a tie-breaker.
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Reading back over pages 1-10 of this makes me upset (again). But ya know what... it does not matter. The back and forth with Whysnow... i'm over it. I even sent him a PM apologizing anyways. No-one deserves to be taken advantage of. Not Hilton... or any of you... no matter what you have ever said.
It does not matter now that some people back then were actually right... and some were wrong. Reading older posts about Predator now is... crazy. Knowing what we know now, you read things and are like "God".
What matters now is that:
-Everyone gets a full and complete refund as soon as it is possible.
-The pinball community recovers from this whole situation.
I don't want to argue with WhySnow or anyone else anymore. This thread has brought out so much venom... and hate. Its hard to read... because this is a hobby so fully of amazing, caring, generous and genuine people. This thread... this is not what pinball is all about.
I was among the first to get the emails, as many of you know. I later found that several others had got them the same time as I did. I shared them with the moderators, a few of my friends, and kept them to myself for fear that they may be false. It was not ever 100% for me until the day Martin posted his story. Until then, I was not even 100% sure he WAS working on a story. To anyone who feels like I denied them a chance at escape by doing this: I am sorry.
Only hoping for the best for you all.
peace pot microdot . Be well/ Love is happiness // So this game is not coming out and now I know for sure I got out when the going was good... Shame is all.. Looked like a good pinball machine if it was ever to be made..
Sorry for all your Woe's you potential buyers that now are waiting on refunds
Much respect for you all who stayed the course .
No respect for those whom spoke for SkitB and were getting involved in the drama without even being a skitB employee , You know who you all are.. shame on you and hope you learn from your experiences here /
Peace out and I am glad to not have to check all things Predator just hoping it was the day someone got one
Predator triple feature Blu-ray 7.99
This three-pack includes Predator, Predator 2, and AVP: Alien vs. Predator.
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/predator-triple-feature-blu-ray-disc/9713103.p?id=3288262&skuId=9713103
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