I still highly doubt he had the capacity to manufacture them

Who's that girl? She's beautiful

From a practical standpoint, this scam could have collapsed at any time especially considering how high-profile it was. I once got contacted by a record exec in LA for bootlegging and selling a concert at college in South Carolina 20 years ago.

A total collapse now was better than one down the road. It really seems unlikely these games ever would have been made regardless and more money would have been lost and more dreams crushed.

Conversely, it was a possibility that he was screwing everyone. It was a possibility the project needed to be killed. Where's the neutrality in the decision that was made to not say anything? Which did it favor, Kevin or the community?

however, i have a question for you... if you watch someone steal something, do you just go about your business like nothing happened, or do you report it to either the person it was stolen from or the police?
the "it's ok to break the law if you get away with it" attitude of many is downright scary...

I don't personally know what I would do. If I know what they were doing I would have warned the people who were invested in the project. I would not do anything that would cut their throats. The loss to these people is a lot greater than the loss to a movie studio that makes billions. I have far more loyalty to the average man than I have to a large company, banks or the government, all who have most likely screwed the little guy countless times in countless ways. You asked and I'm being honest

Again, you are basing all of these statements on the benefit of hindsight.

They were neutral decisions at the time.

I finally called my credit card company last night to see what I could do about getting my money back. Maybe that will give you an indication of what I thought of the anonymous emails.

Pete

Gemma Atkinson.

As I stated before, the information was already out there on the forum. We just didn't feel it was appropriate for Pinside to officially endorse it. While we were attempting to verify the information in the anonymous emails, Kevin said that a big announcement was coming in two weeks. Upon hearing this, it solidified the fact that there was nothing to be gained by Pinside chiming in at that time. The reality is that two weeks wouldn't have made a difference. It's not like we sat on pertinent information for months.

well, i'll give you credit for being honest... "stick it to the man" has no bearing on what is ethical/legal though...

i hesitate to bring this in as an example, but i will... "the little guy" put the music business on life support, basically entirely based on the theory of it was ok to "stick it to the man"...

i have "loyalty" to "ethics" and "the law"... what personal feeling one may have towards the party involved (i.e. stick it to the man, they've been sticking it to us for a long time) does not change what is "allowed" and what is "not allowed"...

Could have favored either, if he had a the right to make the machine then releasing the rumor would have hurt the community. When in doubt, it is best not to spread unsubstantiated rumors (this is basically always the case).

As an aside, I brought up some concerns late last year and was simply blasted by one of the Skit-B defenders. He lodged complaints about me to Robin and the other mods, started stalking my posts claiming I had some agenda he could not articulate . . . and just generally acted an ass till he was banned for a week . . . after that do you think I'm going to get involved with possibly spreading rumors . . . nope.

In any event, the discussion of this facet of the topic is over. Do not criticize the moderation, we received second hand information we could not confirm from a source that would not event identify themselves . . . as did countless others.

I will note that anonymous person/group will come out soon. If Fox pursues the civil case there will be depositions taken of that group (Fox had their number and interviewed them . . . Fox knows who they are). My guess is Kevin knows who they are as well since they received deposit returns . . . soon enough the public record will reveal what everyone (including me) wants to know . . . or there really is no infringement suit coming down the road and an exaggeration of the anonymous group will be confirmed.

Hammer meet nail.

I am angry at Kevin, but I am also disappointed with the mods. Mcluvin is correct, providing a neutral statement was the right thing to do here.

The rumor of no license was brought up at least 4 months ago in another thread, and squashed by this board. People see what they want to see

Let me add that I wouldn't have done it in the first place and if I were to have been in the know I would have tried to stop it but when it comes down to whether it is the little guy or the man getting screwed I will damn sure want it to be the man who in many and I dare to say most cases have no loyalty to ethics and law.

I will be the broken record,

Down vote all you want (hit a nerve?). Future learning, please don't hide behind your keyboard. Your well intentions caused issues.

I have nothing to contribute about this topic but just wanted to get a post in this epic thread

Also consider this a buffer between arguments and heated posts

And here's a calming picture to enjoy

serenity.jpg

anyone who wants to blame pinside/pinside moderators for any of this needs to take a step back...

they have ZERO responsibility (and if was them, i would not open myself up to it) to vet and approve "new projects"... pinside has not been, is not today, and is very unlikely to be in the future involved in "signing off" of projects... that would be a rather large mistake, imo, as they then open themselves up to involvement when "shit hits fan"...

nor do they have the responsibility to "protect you from yourself"...

Neither of us are blinking, ted!

There's just no way to justify stealing from Fox in this case whether you see them as 'the man' or not. This project was going to unravel either way, the writing was on the wall long long ago. Here's how it should have gone in 2012:

SkitB: Hi fox! We're a couple home-brew pinball guys that have made a really cool pinball machine themed after your predator movies as a fan project, we're super fans! We'd love to offer them to others in a limited production run if we could obtain licensing, is this possible?

Fox: NO.

The end. That's it. Everything beyond that is just bad decision making.

Depends on when he knew he didn't have the license. If he was lying about it from the beginning, then Day 1 fraudulent behavior was happening. I still can't believe in his latest email he is still claiming innocence, when EVERYONE, including his biggest cheerleaders, all agree he was lying.

One thing that is bugging me, though.

According to Pinballnews, Kevin stated that the license holders told him to remove their properties form the site when he scrubbed the site between Fall 2013 and Spring 2014, and Pinballnews says that is when the Original C&D came.

The anonymous group claims the C & D didn't come until late 2014, with subsequent requests in early 2015, all ignored.

It seems like a pretty big discrepancy. I sure would love to hear Martin clear that up. If what Martin says was true, even if you give Kevin the benefit of the doubt that he misunderstood "What he had", he had clarity before he demanded $3k from people. If what Mr. X says is true, then he only started lying definitively after late 2014, even if he had hunches that what he was doing wasn't right when he scrubbed everything and made up excuses.

I think it is possible Kevin got some notification in late 2013, and the right hand didn't know what the left hand was doing at Fox, with the licensing department only becoming aware in late 2014. Or Kevin knew he was lying all along and just started covering his tracks in late 2013. Like I said, clarity on this issue would be great, but it seems pretty clear that, despite what Fox told Mr. X, Kevin very clearly knew he couldn't legally do what he was doing at least by late 2013.

That picture was very calming.

Who knows, that';s probably exactly what happened and the "punk side" of Kevin got the best out of him. He said, "f*** that bs" and he took the risks. He was rebellious but in the end it didn't go the way he planned.

To be honest, in business you need to take risks to succeed so this was his big risk. "SOME" Successful businessman will tell you that they all once had a lucky break from doing something shady. Those who are in business will definitely agree with me. The one's that don't make mad profits are the people running clean in life.

But definitely going against Fox and bringing the paying customers on a ride definitely takes a lot of balls and a lot of heavy metal music playing in the background...

Perhaps, but this bit about police knocking on doors to take machines seems far fetched. I've read of products being pulled from retail or stocks destroyed, but not repossessed from consumers.

meh

I certainly am not blaming them one bit. I am expressing disappointment with their decision to take no action when a neutral statement could have been made with ease. I have always viewed the Mods as having our back i.e. someone attacks you or you attack someone, they take care of both issues. They control flame wars & nutjobs too. For the most part they have a unified level headed common sense view towards the pinball community and I applaud that attitude. However, they dropped the ball on this one.

yup... keep "stickin it to the man"...

the great majority of businesses are run on the straight and narrow... we have no choice... well, we DO have a choice... we can choose to ignore standard accounting practices, business ethics, etc. it will likely bite us in the ass in the end, and it's much easier to "do it right"... i've lived through an irs audit of my business, it is NOT as enjoyable as spending the weekend with gemma would be...

since it's tax season... i'd be willing to make a large wager that if you audited "the little guys" returns vs. "the man's" returns, you'd find a LOT more squirelly stuff from "the little guys" (charitable donations, anyone???)... the man finds "loopholes" that aren't available to the little guy, no doubt...

don't confuse a few high profile cases (and TRUST ME, i want to see certain corporate leaders ROT in jail) with the way the great majority of businesses are run...

if you choose to let your personal feelings override respect for the legal system, that's your problem...

Exactly. Complete Hyperbole.

The idea of this site having a moderator's rule about notifying the board when they receive an anonymous tip of some sort will simply never work. Don't you all think it would quickly be abused by EVERYONE who has an agenda, or just wants to stir the pot. "At Stern... rumors of a major layoff coming", "At Heighway... they are about to have their contract with their landlord terminated for nonpayment", and on, and on... This is a tough situation of course with SKITB but a policy perpetuating private messages sent anonomously just isn't feasible.

Now, the idea of vetting manufacturers a bit more makes total sense. Other boards do require a tax id, insurance verification, etc before giving them their own 'presense' on the board which frankly is a defacto endersement.

This event will change the business. IMO, we're going to have three segments of manufacturers.

1) Corporate...with 100,000+ square foot facilities. Licensed products, no pre-orders. Staffed and organized as a typical manufaturing business with dealer and client support. Think Stern and hopefully JJP in the near future.
2) small and mid-tier operations. no licensed products, focus on development and design, outsourced manufacturing. Focus on controlling costs, innovation and great playfield design. Pricing will be based on deposits with complete payment on build.
3) hobbiest. do-it-all approach with in-house manufacturing, unique themes/design, inconsistent communication, pre-orders, small quantity.

It's all good.. we have enough creative, hard-working and HONEST people in this business to get through this screwy situation. However, as a purchaser, assess your risks accordingly. (I bought from Stern as my risk tolerance was rather low, but I did think about WOZ from JJP.)

Same thing is bugging me - something weird.

Another weird thing is the actual knowledge of the licensing process by Kevin (according to one of the subcontractors - check one of the posts above). Did he get it via EoD only, or was he in contact with someone at Fox??

How about no more anonymous emails, community?? The ethical hot potato should have never gone to anyone but the community at large. You did a good thing, but you hindered the communications by the choices you guys made.

The statement I offered as an example required no hindsight.

I noticed that too and have formed a theory.

Kevin's website was filled with YouTube videos. In December 2013 YouTube started Content ID, which flags copyrighted material, typically via audio.

Videos of the game at shows wouldn't have flagged anything, but the "Mission Complete" and "Mode Walkthrough" videos had clear Predator musical score playing, which would have triggered a flag.

Getting flagged isn't a huge deal, worst case you can't monetize the video and the audio may get muted. But for a guy trying to fly under the radar, seeing a COPYRIGHT CLAIM 20TH CENTURY FOX in your YouTube control panel might have spooked him into whitewashing.

When exactly did the whitewashing occur?

He probably had to go through the licensing process for EoD and that's where he got his specifics. If he is family friends of Roger Sharpe he may have just heard enough conversations about licensing to have a functional knowledge.

no... i run a successful business (and i am SURE i am not alone), and i do NOTHING "shady"... to imply that you have to "cheat" to become successful is simply silly...

you can succeed in business without cheating/lying/deceiving... and you can also take big risks as well... businessmen takes risks all the time, legally...

please do not conflate the "risk" of making a LEGAL decision to "take a big risk" with what kevin has done (chose to do something ILLEGAL and hoped he'd get away with it)... they aren't even remotely similar...

That's bullshit.

I believe you are referencing my post, I would certainly not call myself a 'subcontractor' I am a p-roc game builder and I have provided help to many other game builders in addition to Kevin, including Scott and Frank on Wooly, Eric on CCC, Mocean and Nelly on Buffy, Matt on Deadpin, etc.

As far as licensing, when I spoke with Kevin the way he explained the license, and what he paid, etc. matched up with the typical terms in many of these types of agreements, as I have learned through my research. Whether he learned that from Fox or whether he learned that along the way from someone else, I do not know, but the details he described is what supported my belief he had the license. I will say that the EoD license is structured differently than what he described for Predator, so I don't believe that is when he gained that knowledge.

This is completely unrealistic. Your basic standard for credibility may not match mine, which may not match Bob's, which may not match Joe's, etc.

Additionally, when you engage in the activity of verifying businesses on any level, that is a much stronger endorsement, and that makes it even more likely of being named in a lawsuit when the SHTF. It just takes one extremely butthurt person who got screwed on a deal, and doesn't care who has to eat the loss so long as it isn't him, to make your life a living legal hell.

And why? Why would you put yourself in that position if you were running this site? Are you getting paid?

This is a site run by volunteers on donations with free entry open to anyone. There should be zero expectations on the part of users to expect or assume proactive activity by the site or other users to safeguard their well-being. It's great when it happens but it should never be assumed.

It's possible he talked to someone at fox, but it is also possible he got the information from literally anywhere else and just incorporated those details into his lies. I've talked to people who have gone through the licensing process on a few things and, if I wasn't such a terrible liar, I would have enough details to make my shit believable.

I am sure details were a lot clearer after getting some paperwork done for EoD (Who did that paperwork? Was it provided by the mythbuster guys? Did they get an IP Lawyer?) and it's pretty clear EoD was a legit license, which makes it even more crazy that they thought they could get away with their first game being an under the table bootleg that they were passing off as legit. After the EoD deal was struck, Kevin has ZERO excuses for not knowing what he had.

Excellent, now I know who to contact for my own project!

Depends what particular law your talking about.

Murder and J-Walking are pretty much total opposite sides of the scale, yet both have laws prohibiting them. Would you call the cops if you saw someone J-Walking? If a law is bad, we have the obligation to make it known and not just blindly follow it.

The problem with your reasoning is you don't need to get a C&D letter to know you don't have the license.

reductio ad absurdum...

Totally no

I never said "cheating" or "doing illegal" activity to become successful in business is the only way to go. I said "SOME" businessmen need to do shady things in the beginning to get the boat rolling. You can obviously have a successful business by opening up a franchise, and letting the customers come in, but for the guys with zero capital or investments in anything need to take risks and do some shady things. It's life and happens. Just because you have a business that worked and you didn't have to do any shady stuff is fine, but you'd be surprised who do a lot of shady stuff.

Example, I know this mega video game store here locally. I know the owner too. He went from working out of his bedroom to now having this massive store on a main street here. Huge store. You know how much shady stuff he did to make his business work? I also know 3 other examples of the same thing. Life is not as clean as people would like it to be, especially if you're starting a business. In Kevin's shoes, he literally risked everything and put it all on the line, but in the end wasn't successful. However, people do this all the time and catch big breaks. what don't you understand about that?

Might be bullshit, but it's reality. If Kevin had capital to fund this project you think he would ask people for preorder deposits? Hell no. Hence the reason he had to go shady from the start (Start a Predator project without even having the license in HOPES he will eventually get it).

When he didn't get it this is when things turned illegal. As I said before, I am certain he didn't get into this project to scam people. It just turned out ugly but we'll see in a few days/week if he refunds everyone their money.

@nintendo...

here is a quote from your original post... it does not say "some"...

"Successful businessman will tell you that they all once had a lucky break from doing something shady. Those who are in business will definitely agree with me."...

i AM in business, and i AM disagreeing with you...

and i am not alone in being clean and successful...

nope... things didn't "turn illegal"... things WERE illegal the very day he asked for money for a product that he didn't have a license for... we've already covered this ground...

he started without a license... he collected money under the pretenses of having a license... he repeatedly assured people there was a license... it was a scam from DAY 1....

Ah, my bad. English can get messy around here especially with emotions up in there air.

Yes, I meant "some" successful businessmen.

Hope Springs Eternal

Thanks for the clarification - with 1000 posts / day I am losing track.

Sorry, I disagree with you that it was a scam on day 1. Everything else I do agree with you.

Why do I disagree with you? Because someone with no business sense at all, just some regular technician who would fix arcade machines and pinball machines doesn't have any clue on starting a business. I mean for crying out loud the guy didn't incorporate himself in the beginning. He just wanted to build a Predator pinball machine and hopefully make some money.

What happens? During the whole venture he probably figured out that he needs a license. So while building everything and keeping the flow going he tried to get the license from Fox and eventually failed so now he knows he has to refund everyone. But in the meantime I believe he was also thinking of a plan B, plan C, etc... Like someone mentioned here maybe his plan was to still build the machine but not using the Predator name. In the end that wouldn't work. The Time line will never be clear but I assure you that his intentions wasn't to "SCAM" people like you and others keep saying on here. This will all be coined a "SCAM" once he doesn't refund people's money as he mentioned in his recent emails and is taken to court. For the time being you can't say anything and it's a waiting game.