Quoted from Kevgascan:

Who said Kevin kept the money in a Paypal account? He probably withdrew it into a bank account where he would have faster access to it and making interest on it.

Quoted from asay:

Plus he would have paid fees on it.
2.9%+$0.30 per transaction adds up pretty quick. There is 0 chance all the money is there.

Quoted from Kevgascan:

I dont think Paypal is FDIC insured either. He would have nothing to gain and everything to lose with keeping the money in Paypal. His Paypal account is locked, I doubt he can do any refunds threw it. I think he's just buying more time.

Quoted from Erik:

I suppose he could have even invested them wisely. We had a fellow earlier in this thread who (granted, in hindsight) called stock trades and claimed windfall profits in 2014. Perhaps they shared investment strategies? Or maybe...

skit-b.jpg

Quoted from Kevgascan:

I dont think Paypal is FDIC insured either. He would have nothing to gain and everything to lose with keeping the money in Paypal. His Paypal account is locked, I doubt he can do any refunds threw it. I think he's just buying more time.

Quoted from Pubaw:

Hilton does not need to be treated that way true. But----Hilton has his own issues too. He creates drama where there is none to be. Fact. Check The Shadow thread. A poster asked for responses to what everyone thought it was worth. Many replied...including Hilton. Sooooooo. Hilton goes around singling out any post that signaled a higher value than what he posted. Mine included. In fact his snotty attitude to me was, "Well, why don't you go buy it then if you think it is worth that much"
Again he creates drama where there is none! I hope he and everyone else get there money back. I hope that Pinside threads allow everyone to post fairly. I hope everyone that posts does it in a manner with respect and not to create drama or be snotty. I can only hope

Quoted from Pubaw:

Whatever. It is not worth anymore of my time with you. You twisted my post up by posting an excerpt and it is totally unprofessional. Next time put my entire post up and if you can reference the other parties post I was commenting to. My post is totally valid and your in line for food sentence makes no sense at all. Have a good life.

Quoted from chessiv:

I don't think PayPal is going to find this amusing if they look into it. Although this amount of money may not show up on their radar. Too many complaints might.

Quoted from OLDPINGUY:

Small info.
Paypal rates can be below 2%
Funds can be transferred from your bank to Paypal easy.
Paypal gladly accepts funds transferred in.
If Kevin wishes to refund through Paypal, I dont see any difficulties.

Quoted from Kevgascan:

His account is locked. I doubt he can receive, transfer, send or refund any money.

Quoted from limelime20:

Your wrong, and why you would say such a thing without proof is slanderous..

Quoted from PW79:

I bet removing Predator from your Pinside games list is similar to deleting an ex girlfriends number
You just stare at it for a minute before clicking the button lol

Quoted from GGBGROUP:

Paypal is not the issue here. Start writing checks and mail them, fedex. The money is in a bank account that may have been tied to the PAYPAL account at one point. If it were me, I would have already transferred all the money to an escrow account that my lawyer has access to along with money borrowed from family, friends, my dog, whatever..just so it's all there.... and I'd have my lawyer sending checks via overnight mail with a letter stating that I would be filing bankruptcy in 5 days. No other way to handle it especially with criminal and civil actions forthcoming, and no llc to assist in protecting assets.

Quoted from GGBGROUP:

llc to assist in protecting assets.

Quoted from Kevgascan:

So he "Better call Saul"?

Quoted from asay:

This is really the shocking part. Taking so many payments and spending so much money without being under the protection of a legal business structure is beyond stupid. I'm 23 with no formal business education and once took a dare to smash a china vase over my head, but I STILL would have gotten that part right.

Quoted from Rarehero:

The pinball hobby has been full of honest & innovative people. People who have made and/or sold really cool products.. I've sent TONS of money to tons of people I've never met to get great products. On top of that - they've never been "anonymous corporations"...they've always been guys like us. ColorDMD, Pinball Life, Cliffy, etc. The pinball experience has been very cool....and cool has been the norm. So - when "one of us" builds a Predator game and says it's officially licensed - why wouldn't people have trusted him? There wasn't a precedent for a mega pinball scam. To insult them is a douche move.

Quoted from Kevgascan:

So he "Better call Saul"?

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Best believe I would be taking Kevin to small claims for any remainder after even a 90% refund. The only way he can get out of that is by filing bankruptcy. In that case, you may be out any remaining (if any) cash you paid in.

Quoted from limelime20:

"It's almost a treat that yours was in the first 10 and we stopped everything in time"
This was a "lmao" moment in this fiasco IMO, I'm sorry whysnow, but you were so mean to us all,
for so long.....But still don't want you to lose money..even now.
But I wouldn't put it pass him, that he high-tailed it to Kevin's house to collect his "machine".
Yes, he would take it in pieces, no doubt...
So, even if he did, Anyone whoever see's this in his collection, will tell us all...
so that a certain someone got a illegal predator pinball, and hello FOX...

Quoted from asay:

Plus he would have paid fees on it.
2.9%+$0.30 per transaction adds up pretty quick. There is 0 chance all the money is there.

Quoted from MMuller:

do you believe in karma?

Quoted from MMuller:

do you believe in karma?

Quoted from retro_p:

Yeah, registering a company is kind of step one for any enterprise, and skipping that is about as naive as it gets. Of course, it is immaterial if he had an LLC or not, fraud is fraud. An LLC offers zero insulation from a criminal/fraudulent act like that.

Quoted from Aurich:

No, no, I've already said that I believe he's spent $70k. I can only see pro-rated refunds. But if PayPal can return money without taking the fees, that's 3% more that you can get back

Quoted from jlm33:

What you do not consider is the possibility that Kevin will dig in his own savings - or take a loan - to refund people in full. It would not only be elegant, it would also be smart because he may avoid some litigation with clients that way. Guess it may end up costing more than $70k in legal fees. Given the uproar generated by the Pinball news story, I think some may settle for nothing less than 100%...

Quoted from lowepg:

Looking at where he lives, Id really be surprised if he had access to that kind of extra cash.... you're talking about more than 2X times the value of his house!

Quoted from the_one:

The refund process is expected to be swift and completed very soon. You all will start to see those balances reflecting in your accounts in a few short days.

Quoted from the_one:

While it pains me deeply to have to say it while we are sitting at the finish line, asking or even allowing someone to stay involved at this point is simply too much to ask.

Quoted from jonnyo:

The actions of the 'anonymous' group don't sound selfish to me at all.
They thought the situation wasn't on the up and up, so they and theirs got out. At the time they got out, their fears probably amounted to conjecture and a sober evaluation of the situation, but not necessarily hard evidence. It's perfectly fine to act on your gut for your own sake. When you start advising others and potentially damaging a company, the burden of proof is higher and the consequences greater. You need absolute certainty.
Even when learning about the license, was there something they missed? Maybe spoke with the wrong person at Fox? It's an extremely damning allegation and not one that I, personally, would have made without being 100% certain.
Had they told you to "get out now!" and you did, what would you be saying if the project went forward successfully? You'd be crying that the "well-meaning idiots robbed me of my chance to own a Predator, and look, they're already being resold for 10k!" Cue the WAHHHHmbulance.
I got out last June because by then I started having strong doubts:
1. Very little communication in the year prior to asking for $3000.
2. No evidence of mfg facility or ability to mfg. (No staff, tools, facility, etc.)
3. Dragging the game to shows where it more often than not wasn't working.
4. Dragging the game to shows to promote it when it was already sold out (why?)
5. Excuses of not having time to reply to email or write status reports but time to take it to shows, build Duckhunt and revamp a website.
6. Later on: Excuses of not having time to reply to email or write status reports but time to design Experts of Dangerous and promote it.
Did I think the project was doomed then? Yeah, pretty much. I told my local pinball friends as such. Did I post on pinside shouting to the rooftops? Hell no. I had no smoking gun, and back then, nearly everyone was sunshine and lollipops about this project. I would have been branded a doomsayer who partially caused the project's demise.
TLDR: You got screwed by Kevin, no one else.

Quoted from kvan99:

Again it was the way it went down that was wrong in a big way. Not the action.

Quoted from lowepg:

So, I kind of agree with your point here... but it begs the question:
What EXACTLY are the facts/proof that anyone has?
I was just rereading the pinball news story and while it all seems perfectly plausible, where's the PROOF? Isn't it all just circumstantial and/or hearsay?
Don't get me wrong, I totally believe it, but wheres the hard evidence?
I guess the closest thing would be the supposed phone conversation with the FOX attorney, but if they made the recording surreptitiously, and the lawyer was located in an all-party-consent State (like California IS), they really can't share it.
The "proof" is trying to prove a negative- that Kevin didn't have a license. The only folks that can can PROVE that is Kevin going on the record about it OR FOX going on the record with the allegation. To date, I dont think we've seen either.

Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

SHIT B.
When talking about this mess, I think that it's completely fair that everyone refer to Kevin as SHIT B.

Quoted from PorkChopExpress:

SHIT B sure is a real CHOGGARD!

Quoted from woka:

This whole situation is just Choggard.

Quoted from shimoda:

This has been the saddest thread I have followed for any single day on this forum and an unfortunately dark portrait of the Pinside community. While the sad part should be the apparent - the designer of a boutique game allegedly lied, took cash installments despite C&D letters, and spent some of that money, and a good portion of that, for personal gain - it doesn't stop there and for the part played by this thread and its constituents has ultimately been the minor player. There is no protagonist and antagonist here duking it out for moral equivocation. This thread has been a downward spiral since I came to see the response to the Pinball News article that was released.
Player 1 - a voluminous number of hobbyists that took a financial risk and invested in a game that they hoped would bring a loved theme to life. They gave and have apparently been taken advantage of - they are the victims. If anyone could dispute this let them try and fall on their own blades as we go into blame the victim mode. Given the statements Aurich has said were made in a private message to him, particularly regarding those who were early to invest - those who call themselves the 'anonymous' group had vicious intent in holding back and not releasing information that could have helped any pre-ordering 'investor' to recoup some or all of their investment - a move that incidentally could have shaved months from this drawn out process and helped minimize the damage. Before I get the same downvotes many have gotten for -any- message they post regardless of its comments (and I have seen several post with no inflammatory statements downvoted 20+ times today) consider this: If a group of people in a theatre went into the lobby during the show and saw smoke coming from projection booth then simply walked out of the theatre, only to come back later and shout fire, how many would call them the heroes? Of course this is an exaggerated analogy, but it is just that - an analogy. If there was any intent to see any of the pre-order investors, at least two of whom were allegedly part of this trio of belated informers, then there were selfish and harmful motives to the process by which they alerted the audience to the danger.
Player 2 - Participants on the side of the manufacturing agent - aka Kevin. As for Noel and Aaron, and others, were any concerned about licensing then I would imagine as a stakeholder in the process you would want to protect yourself legally. I do not personally know what that means but if I were manufacturing parts for a licensed product I would want a legally valid license (read: printed and verified) produced before I took any money or orders so as to protect my part in this venture. Attacks have been made on these auxiliary agents - they did not take pre-order money and ultimately should be left out of the argument save for how they choose to enter it.
Player 3 - Kevin - hasn't shown up in this thread lately and has been extremely silent on most all fronts. I received an e-mail a few months back from him about a slot opening up for the pre-order but I no interest anymore for several reasons. The lack of prior communication about the process and licensing concerns brought up months ago were significant reasons.
What is the most sad? This thread has become a sort of one-stop-shop for divisiveness, judgment, and behavior bordering on slander. Rather than dealing with technical issues, I've seen several Thread Eject notices, edited posts, and the aforementioned numerous (and senseless/irrational) thumbs down. It's become a mudslinging contest with no concern for maturity and ultimately fact. Well over a thousand posts in one day and a large percentage of them filled with vile. I'm wondering why I didn't drain this topic but it comes down to using this thread as a barometer of how low some will go in deciding what kind of people various pinsiders actually are - definition in absentia. Except for bands of pinsiders here and there, many of you have no idea what kind of people each other are yet I've seen people make the kind of judgmental statements typical of religious and political arguments - emotionally based and often those kinds of things that we (hopefully) regret because they lessen our humanity.
If people knew for certain that a license was absolutely not held by Kevin and had proof of this it should have been revealed at that point - holding on to such information is otherwise spiteful and essentially invalidates the 'good' done by finding the information in the first place.
Here is what is known - little. I have seen (unless I missed in the umpteen pages today) no physical evidence that Fox or it's legal agents have communicated with anyone about a Predator pinball license - Kevin, Mr. 'X', anonymous, etc. I have seen no actual e-mails showing spiteful intent towards Hilton (though the copied e-mail suggests this). I've seen more downvotes in one thread than possibly exist in the rest of the database (or at least a sizable portion of posts in the last couple years). I rarely downvote, not because I want to be touchy feely, but negativity for the sake of negativity hurts the speaker almost as much (and in some cases more) than the receiver.
For those that pre-ordered - ALL of you - I wish you your money back in full though the likelihood is small. For those of you that have spent the day spitting at each other with a mouse click, agree to meet in real life and have a real conversation or perhaps grow up enough to realize all your negativity is just harming a community you claim (partly by using those downvotes) to want to wholly support.
Pinball is a game but hate is something else entirely.
EDIT: I picked an interesting moment to finally post, during my typing up an apparent email from Kevin was posted in this thread so the actual story of which this thread should be driven will be told in reality over the next few days and weeks.

Quoted from lowepg:

Yup.
And as part of the post-mortem on this fiasco, I'd hope pinside itself would set some basic standards before they tacitly endorse an individual who will primarily use pinside to raise $1m......