Quoted from Aurich:

So let's not try and turn this into corporate espionage or anything.

Quoted from jrivelli:

To add to it, I 've received two cease letters in my life. Both from Fox for hosting simpsons and some other audio files for a .wav sound bite site I had years and years ago. I ignored them both. Then got another more threatening letter. Ignored again and never heard from them again.

Quoted from jrivelli:

the worst so far out of all botiques

Quoted from jfh:

That just makes you lucky, not smart.

Quoted from jfh:

That just makes you lucky, not smart.

Quoted from jrivelli:

Ok, so I get that. Again, that doesn't mean he wasn't going to produce the games and ship.
He would obviously be sued by Fox at that point, but still not a scam perse to the end user.
We haven't ruled out that Kevin is literally that dumb/ignorant to ignore and continue to produce lol/
I get what you are saying, and do agree to a point, but Im just saying maybe he really did have the anticipation of thinking Fox would simply let this go? Obviously an ignorant stance of his if he took that, but not unlikely.

Quoted from markmon:

I don't see evidence this was a scam. I've played the game. It actually exists. There are better and more profitable ways to scam people out of money than making a real pinball machine.

Quoted from badbilly27:

With all do respect, did you enjoy "The Decision" televised by Lebron James? At least he had the balls to do it himself.

Quoted from badbilly27:

It's not that they found out - its how they chose to communicate it. Worked with FOX lawyers, sent notes to PBN, sent different notes to different pinsiders, heckled Whysnow in many of the notes gloating. Really? Really? Greg, come on.
Yes, Kevin is the only one to blame and should be primary focus until money is returned. But I'll say it again, the ethics in this pinball community need questioning. Serious questioning.

Quoted from Aurich:

I know who that employee is. And he's maintained that for ages, long before Kevin took down the website and everyone got suspicious. If he wanted to sabotage things he could have done it a long time ago.
So let's not try and turn this into corporate espionage or anything.

Quoted from jrivelli:

To add to it, I 've received two cease letters in my life. Both from Fox for hosting Simpsons and some other audio files for a .wav sound bite site I had years and years ago. I ignored them both. Then got another more threatening letter. Ignored again and never heard from them again.

Quoted from Half_Life:

I've seen made for TV movies that aren't near this good.

Quoted from badbilly27:

Expect Rarehero thumbs down in 5....4...3...2...

Quoted from jrivelli:

No what? No you have no debate to this or what?
I'm looking at this form a factual, non emotional/drama stance.
Does kevin suck the worst so far out of all botiques? Yes, of course. He made a neat, unfinished prototype and went around the country. Would he have ever produced the game? Probably not. Did he intend to take everyone's money and not produce? Doubt it. I bet he didn't realize what it takes. Just like Jpop's game. That's not happening either.

Quoted from Pubaw:

I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying.

Quoted from jrivelli:

Lol can't wait. Fox is one of the worst companies in the TV world of all time. He can thumbs that down too while watching Fox news

Quoted from badbilly27:

Expect Rarehero thumbs down in 5....4...3...2...

Quoted from jrivelli:

Lol can't wait. Fox is one of the worst companies in the TV world of all time. He can thumbs that down too while watching Fox news

Quoted from jrivelli:

To add to it, I 've received two cease letters in my life. Both from Fox for hosting Simpsons and some other audio files for a .wav sound bite site I had years and years ago. I ignored them both. Then got another more threatening letter. Ignored again and never heard from them again.

Quoted from flynnibus:

Where in there does it talk about FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY causing them to fail? 'finding out costs are higher than expected' is not fraud. Stupidity is not fraud (tho one could argue negligence and the liability that came come with that depending on your role). 'higher than expected' is not the same thing as DECEPTION and LYING.

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

It is when you damn well know the numbers arn't going to work before you even start. Before you even have a company. You fudge your numbers on paper, it's the same damn thing. Why don't you quote my post where I go through the hypothetical business model step by step. You seem to magically avoid that post altogether.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Beyond license-gate - let's be real. Was he ever really going to be able to manufacture 250 games!? Look how long Spooky is taking to make their games "garage style". This thing would have fallen apart, whistleblowers or not. He would have taken forever to make the games himself- Fox would have found out. If he had gone to a manufacturer for help - they would have found out the license wasn't there.
This would have fallen apart...no matter what. I just truly hope everyone gets their refund. At the end of the day, the game was a piece of shit anyway - made by a piece of shit. If you get your money back...win-win.

Quoted from Rarehero:

Sorry. I find the whistleblowers to be absolutely ethical. They found out the truth. End of story. There are a lot of allegations in this story - and I respect that all the information was vetted and confirmed before it went public.

Quoted from jonnyo:

The actions of the 'anonymous' group don't sound selfish to me at all.
They thought the situation wasn't on the up and up, so they and theirs got out. At the time they got out, their fears probably amounted to conjecture and a sober evaluation of the situation, but not necessarily hard evidence. It's perfectly fine to act on your gut for your own sake. When you start advising others and potentially damaging a company, the burden of proof is higher and the consequences greater. You need absolute certainty.
Even when learning about the license, was there something they missed? Maybe spoke with the wrong person at Fox? It's an extremely damning allegation and not one that I, personally, would have made without being 100% certain.
Had they told you to "get out now!" and you did, what would you be saying if the project went forward successfully? You'd be crying that the "well-meaning idiots robbed me of my chance to own a Predator, and look, they're already being resold for 10k!" Cue the WAHHHHmbulance.
I got out last June because by then I started having strong doubts:
1. Very little communication in the year prior to asking for $3000.
2. No evidence of mfg facility or ability to mfg. (No staff, tools, facility, etc.)
3. Dragging the game to shows where it more often than not wasn't working.
4. Dragging the game to shows to promote it when it was already sold out (why?)
5. Excuses of not having time to reply to email or write status reports but time to take it to shows, build Duckhunt and revamp a website.
6. Later on: Excuses of not having time to reply to email or write status reports but time to design Experts of Dangerous and promote it.
Did I think the project was doomed then? Yeah, pretty much. I told my local pinball friends as such. Did I post on pinside shouting to the rooftops? Hell no. I had no smoking gun, and back then, nearly everyone was sunshine and lollipops about this project. I would have been branded a doomsayer who partially caused the project's demise.
TLDR: You got screwed by Kevin, no one else.

Quoted from badbilly27:

All I care about is if anyone found out - they all should have told the community immediately. Alleged employee, vendor, best friend, etc.....

Quoted from spfxted:

Leave my Vampire Vixens from Venus out of this!

vampire vixens pix 1.jpg (Click image to enlarge)

Quoted from Rarehero:

I give you a thumbs up! .....but where...

Quoted from CaptainNeo:

now I have to go to netflix and see if this exists. Thanks for that.

Quoted from lowepg:

The "community" was told- they just chose not to listen. Some did and got out early. Some tried and it was too late.
Individuals challenged the license going back MONTHS.... but how do you PROVE something doesn't exist.... it's not so simple.... especially when people check their common sense at the door for their "grail theme."
However those individual voices were drowned out by some supposedly more "established" pinside voices (Ted, Aaaron, VirtuaPin) and some shrill ones (whysnow, etc).

Quoted from unigroove:

2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from unigroove:

I haven't followed much of this, but I did play the Predator prototype at Expo and thought some of the rules were pretty original.
I'm not commenting on whatever Kevin supposedly did or didn't do, as I don't know. For all I know he may have been talking to someone and being mislead himself (I'm in a naive mood ).
Anyway, there is a very simple solution for the whole matter. Actually multiple:
1. Kevin gets the license after all, produces the games, end of story.
or
2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from unigroove:

I haven't followed much of this, but I did play the Predator prototype at Expo and thought some of the rules were pretty original.
I'm not commenting on whatever Kevin supposedly did or didn't do, as I don't know. For all I know he may have been talking to someone and being mislead himself (I'm in a naive mood ).
Anyway, there is a very simple solution for the whole matter. Actually multiple:
1. Kevin gets the license after all, produces the games, end of story.
or
2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from unigroove:

Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from Nibbles:

A prank how? Someone hacked his email account? If that's even remotely a possibility, I really don't care. Kevin just needs to stick to his word this ONE TIME, and that's it.
If you are insinuating that Playboy is trolling, c'mon man.

Quoted from Nibbles:

A prank how? Someone hacked his email account? If that's even remotely a possibility, I really don't care. Kevin just needs to stick to his word this ONE TIME, and that's it.
If you are insinuating that Playboy is trolling, c'mon man.

Quoted from lowepg:

The "community" was told- they just chose not to listen. Some did and got out early. Some tried and it was too late.
Individuals challenged the license going back MONTHS.... but how do you PROVE something doesn't exist.... it's not so simple.... especially when people check their common sense at the door for their "grail theme."
However those individual voices were drowned out by some supposedly more "established" pinside voices (Ted, Aaaron, VirtuaPin) and some shrill ones (whysnow, etc).

Quoted from frolic:

There's been "a run on the bank", it's over.

Quoted from unigroove:

I haven't followed much of this, but I did play the Predator prototype at Expo and thought some of the rules were pretty original.
I'm not commenting on whatever Kevin supposedly did or didn't do, as I don't know. For all I know he may have been talking to someone and being mislead himself (I'm in a naive mood ).
Anyway, there is a very simple solution for the whole matter. Actually multiple:
1. Kevin gets the license after all, produces the games, end of story.
or
2. Another pinball company picks up the Predator license, which shouldn't be expensive at all. They also license Kevin's design. Kevin hands over the remaining pre-order money (which hopefully hasn't been spent). The new manufacturer contacts those who pre-ordered and comes with a proposal to build the game at the same (or at least a reasonable) price. If more money is required then there may be some additional incentives for thsoe who pre-ordered, assuming they are going for a >250 run. Eventually the game becomes available, it may actually see some additional improvement in the mean time, and nobody loses. Like I said I'm in a naive mode, but it doesn't sound impossible to me.

Quoted from badbilly27:

No, there was educated guesses and "tea leaf" reading by many on here. No hard facts shared. (Full disclosure - after Expo I got out because of false promises Kevin made in an email that did not materialize at Expo). I was fortunate and it wasn't easy getting out)
The simple point I keep making is if anonymous spoke to the lawyer at Fox and confronted Kevin - no need to find an established pinside voice. It's all fact now not "tea leaf" reading. Why the cloak and dagger crap? Why BS emails to taunt Whysnow? Why work with Fox over the community? I'm very glad they investigated - how they communicated is BS.
I get the "drowning out" factor. Trust me, I got into it with one of the more "established" pinsiders spouse who was zealous and took it to PM to resolve. Lessons learned for everyone who is passionate. But when supported facts are presented (like talking to a lawyer), speak it from the highest mountain brother.

Quoted from pinmanguy:

I don't see it as a black and white issue

Quoted from frolic:

it's over.

Quoted from spfxted:

...I think it's black ...and blacker...

Quoted from Half_Life:

The deed is done. Filed a dispute claim with my credit card company. Not sure if it will go any where but it is an attempt.

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Of course it will go somewhere, don't sound so disappointed!

Quoted from pinmanguy:

And what if they went public but Kevin got a license in the end and then fox and kevin went after anonymous for costing them sales? What if Kevin did a runner and Fox went after anonymous? I don't see it as a black and white issue as there was more factors happening at the time.

Quoted from flynnibus:

But was that simply a broken clock is right twice a day?
We should be sure to differentiate between something someone KNEW vs what they were SPECULATING and happened to be right.
People had all kinds of theories and concerns... and no matter how right they might have been, if they started without references or research.. then they are still simply speculating.
Obviously some people were trying to do their dilligence before spewing half information or onesided stories. Kudos to that. The amount of people that are advocating you should be sharing unvetted information 'to save the buyers' is insane.
Floods of inaccurate information is even more damaging than the alternative.

Quoted from badbilly27:

As the story goes, anonymous spoke to the lawyer - first hand - who confirmed, no license. Then asked anonymous to help Fox investigate and to collect more info. This, supposedly after a C&D was issued to Kevin. So how would making this public impact anything or hold them liable? It's fact.

Quoted from snakesnsparklers:

Of course it will go somewhere, don't sound so disappointed!
To everybody who paid with a CC: This case is a slam dunk for you and the most effective way to move forward it to issue a dispute against the charge(s) (which leads to a chargeback). The credit card company will find in your favor since Kevin can produce no proof of delivering the goods, and that's before taking any foul play into account.
You don't need to involve Paypal at all. You can also file a credit card dispute after you have lost a claim with Paypal. The credit card companies trump anything Paypal does.