Quoted from DrStarkweather:art that looks like the weird kid from your high school shop class drew in his notebook?
Or stole from the front of a DVD cover:
http://www.covershut.com/DVD-Covers/58616-Predator-1987-Front.html
(Topic ID: 108377)
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Saddle River, NJ
Quoted from nintendo:For sure Jack is a nice guy, I was just being an ass with my comment lol. I met Jack, he's totally genuine and treats you like gold.
He just has that Irish accent.... 
Quoted from StevenP:I gave this a thumbs-down. Not because I disagree with that there should be more info put out, but because I disagree with the characterization and conclusions. As someone else noted, John may be slow and stubborn, but he knows the realities and details of the biz (having worked hands-on with B/W and Zizzle, etc.), and he is not lying or deceiving customers.
He worked as a game designer. Not a marketer, salesmen, operations manger or anything outside of design, right? That's the big problem. In my opinion, Jpop and others, have found its not too hard to design the game and thats pretty fun for them. However, manufacturing, selling and distributing it is a whole nother beast.
Quoted from Pubaw:I do not understand why people thumbs you down. You are correct in what you are saying. Back before the desktop computer really phase took off (22 years ago) there were 3 companies and only 3 that wanted to make sound cards. All almost went bust before the craze finally took off. All needed more funding because on paper they were wrong. All are now out of business decades later but did make their product for awhile and had profits. Who were they?
SoundBlaster
Pro Audio Spectrum
ESST Technologies
Failure != fraud
Underestimating things with the correct intentions != fraud
Companies failing to execute != fraud
FUDGING the numbers intentional to deceive = FRAUD
LYING to your investors to deceive = FRAUD
I can't believe people don't know the #@$^ difference between criminal activity and companies failing.
Quoted from Sonny_Jim:Or stole from the front of a DVD cover:
http://www.covershut.com/DVD-Covers/58616-Predator-1987-Front.html
So let me get this straight doc.... he built an unlicensed game AND he stole artwork?? That's just ruthless! I'm sure the KGB is reading this right now and looking to hire the guy as we speak!
Quoted from flynnibus:Failure != fraud
Underestimating things with the correct intentions != fraud
Companies failing to execute != fraud
FUDGING the numbers intentional to deceive = FRAUD
LYING to your investors to deceive = FRAUD
Doesn't matter what you say is fraud. It's what you can PROVE is fraud.... 
So if he does refund all the money and there is no scam then thats super lame of the folks who tattled to fox, right? This was a small 250 run with a prototype that went to shows. Perhaps insanely slow to develop etc. Not the issue. Now, because some "pinsiders on a crusade", or however they identified their self-rightesous selfs, fox wins and all 250 preorders get money back, but lose. Bummer!
Quoted from spfxted:Doesn't matter what you say is fraud. It's what you can PROVE is fraud....
Enough man. Seriously.
Quoted from DutchTommy:yes kevin his wife is an practical witch..
I cant resist asking. How is she a witch? What can she do. Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?
Quoted from spfxted:Doesn't matter what you say is fraud. It's what you can PROVE is fraud....
Under Michigan penal code
As used in this section, "false pretense" includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed.
Quoted from jrivelli:So if he does refund all the money and there is no scam then thats super lame of the folks who tattled to fox, right? This was a small 250 run with a prototype that went to shows. Perhaps insanely slow to develop etc. Not the issue. Now, because some "pinsiders on a crusade", or however they identified their self-rightesous selfs, fox wins and all 250 preorders get money back, but lose. Bummer!
It just doesn't make sense. There is no way all of the money is still there. And Kevin and family certainly do not appear to be wealthy by any means. Don't give up contacting your credit card companies and pursuing other avenues to get your money back.
Quoted from spfxted:Doesn't matter what you say is fraud. It's what you can PROVE is fraud....
Umm, I don't think it will be too difficult for even a junior lawyer to prove. Numerous emails declaring in no uncertain terms "absolutely we have the license" compared to Fox's statement "we've never heard of the guy or his project and we've served him a C&D". Case closed.
Quoted from zr11990:Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?
I hear she is pretty good with the trust spell 
Quoted from zr11990:I cant resist asking. How is she a witch? What can she do. Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?
Oh man, you do not even want to know. Look at her public facebook page. She attends events with other "witches" in full dress and what not. God forbid you should ever say something religious around her because basically she (or Kevin for that matter) will try to talk well over your head with the history of religion and it all being BS. She is pagan (obviously) and to her it's the only "religion" that makes sense.
Quoted from zr11990:I cant resist asking. How is she a witch? What can she do. Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?
Didn't she make Kevin? Isn't that considered a curse? BURRRRNNNNN j/k
Quoted from PinChili:Umm, I don't think it will be too difficult for even a junior lawyer to prove.
Jeez! Do some of you just like to argue? I'm not saying it would be difficult...just that it's not automatic. If you're going to court you have to SHOW proof. No more, no less. You can't just go in with a good story. 
Quoted from robertmee:I guess we need to know what 'shut down' means....does it mean deleted, or frozen?
Usually frozen.
One thing Paypal is good at is.. is ensuring THEY get their money. You can't just close your paypal account and think you are home free. By linking to your bank account, they have a lot more hooks in you than you might think.
Quoted from nintendo:Didn't she make Kevin? Isn't that considered a curse? BURRRRNNNNN
lol...I'll find the Monty Python gif!
Quoted from spfxted:Jeez! Do some of you just like to argue? I'm not saying it would be difficult...just that it's not automatic. If you're going to court you have to SHOW proof. No more, no less. You can't just go in with a good story.
Agreed. Not arguing. But there seems to be ample documented proof available. So again, good luck with that Kevin. I don't know who would initiate the prosecution (if anyone?) But if they do ... yikes.
Quoted from PinChili:But if they do ... yikes.
Yes...let's hope it never comes to this.... 
Quoted from zr11990:I cant resist asking. How is she a witch? What can she do. Can she cast spells, curses, turn people into frogs?
It's a religion, just like any other. I don't think it's cool to bring his wife into the conversation at all.
Disclaimer: No, I'm not one of them. I'm atheist.
Quoted from lowepg:But I will say again, people TRIED to bring this information to light for months and they were criticized as "conspiracy nuts" or "just trying to bring a good man down", etc, etc. You need to ask yourself- how much more evidence would some of the zealots here believe?
But was that simply a broken clock is right twice a day?
We should be sure to differentiate between something someone KNEW vs what they were SPECULATING and happened to be right.
People had all kinds of theories and concerns... and no matter how right they might have been, if they started without references or research.. then they are still simply speculating.
Obviously some people were trying to do their dilligence before spewing half information or onesided stories. Kudos to that. The amount of people that are advocating you should be sharing unvetted information 'to save the buyers' is insane.
Floods of inaccurate information is even more damaging than the alternative.
Quoted from jrivelli:So if he does refund all the money and there is no scam then thats super lame of the folks who tattled to fox, right? This was a small 250 run with a prototype that went to shows. Perhaps insanely slow to develop etc. Not the issue. Now, because some "pinsiders on a crusade", or however they identified their self-rightesous selfs, fox wins and all 250 preorders get money back, but lose. Bummer!
He Never Had A License!
Ottawa, ON
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:Disclaimer: No, I'm not one of them. I'm atheist.
me too!!...and thank god! 
There are more than enough grounds here for dozens of civil cases. There are also grounds for a criminal investigation, and possible charges if the vendor lied to the buyers and took their money under false pretences. All it would take is a single complaint to the agency with jurisdiction. Local, State or Federal depending on the laws you have in the US.
As far as showing proof, there seems to have been a fair bit of communication and financial transactions that took place, sounds like it is all out there, just needs to be put together. Strength in numbers, those out $ might want to consider approaching this as a unified group.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I don't think it's cool to bring his wife into the conversation at all.
Disclaimer: No, I'm not one of them. I'm atheist.
Unless she is also complicit, no? And I have a hard time believing she knew nothing at all and until everyone gets their money back and every cent is accounted for ... she's accountable too (along with her new photography studio and the new photography equipment.)
Quoted from foxct:Under Michigan penal code
As used in this section, "false pretense" includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed.
You do understand he committed these criminal actions in more than one state. Therefore he can be prosecuted in every state these actions took place.
Quoted from dkazz1:Multiple state = federal charges
Wire Fraud/Mail Fraud.......it's not going to be pretty
I hope everyone gets their money back but this doesn't look promising.
Man, doesn't look good for Kevin in front of a judge:
judge.jpgQuoted from Trekie:You do understand he committed these criminal actions in more than one state. Therefore he can be prosecuted in every state these actions took place.
interstate commerce makes it a federal case right?
Been thinking this about a few games, anyone else feel like I do, that Pinside shouldn't have games that really don't exist yet in the Archive?
Quoted from Trekie:You do understand he committed these criminal actions in more than one state. Therefore he can be prosecuted in every state these actions took place.
I'm not sure how that would play out, maybe straight to FBI? Anyway, the Michigan law has sentences up to 20 years, ouch!
Quoted from spfxted:Hope to soon see people unboxing their refunds...
Wouldn't that be nice... But I don't see how it's gonna happen even IF Kevin wanted to send out refunds. At this point he's got pending credit card chargebacks, Paypal investigations, not to mention the criminal side of things with Fox, etc. that are all tangled up into a big mess. Who knows how long it will take to unwind it all. And I doubt it's all gonna get sorted out in a basement.
I was at the disappointing Chicago showing, I looked at my friend and said I love how excited they are about this project but this is just not going to happen. I am so sorry for those of you who are in. I was in a pre-order, and was up at all hours sometimes when it looked as if it would implode and I was going to be out more then I could afford to loose in a year.
Quoted from flynnibus:Usually frozen.
One thing Paypal is good at is.. is ensuring THEY get their money. You can't just close your paypal account and think you are home free. By linking to your bank account, they have a lot more hooks in you than you might think.
Yep - NEVER to link to your bank account particularly if you sell stuff on greed bay. If a buyer files a bogus claim against you Paypal can take the funds from your bank account even if you don't have a balance in your Paypal account. I honestly don't know how they get away with that as it seems borderline criminal. I've had two accounts for almost 15 years - one that is linked (that I never use anymore) and another that is not linked. They ask me to update my account with a bank account every time I log-on but fu@k that - I don't want anyone to have unauthorized access to my bank accounts. Its a pain because it adds an extra step to the log-in process but I'd rather suffer that minor annoyance than hand over the keys to the kitty.
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:It's a religion, just like any other. I don't think it's cool to bring his wife into the conversation at all.
Disclaimer: No, I'm not one of them. I'm atheist.
You don't pull shi* like this without your wife knowing, especially given what we know about family involvement.
Maybe it makes me a bad guy, but if I asked you for some background and you told me you and your wife were practicing pagans and intolerant of any other beliefs, no way in hell would I send you $5K to build me anything.
Quoted from mac622:Yep - NEVER to link to your bank account particularly if you sell stuff on greed bay. If a buyer files a bogus claim against you Paypal can take the funds from your bank account even if you don't have a balance in your Paypal account. I honestly don't know how they get away with that as it seems borderline criminal. I've had two accounts for almost 15 years - one that is linked (that I never use anymore) and another that is not linked. They ask me to update my account with a bank account every time I log-on but fu@k that - I don't want anyone to have unauthorized access to my bank accounts. Its a pain because it adds an extra step to the log-in process but I'd rather suffer that minor annoyance than hand over the keys to the kitty.
Totally agree! I use PP for purchases only.
Quoted from DCfoodfreak:Wow, sad what this proves. Sad..
But to be clear the issue of pinsiders with self serving agendas sucks but in NO way is it anywhere close to what Kevin has done.
Kevin is a criminal and defrauded the hobby, These guys got caught up in their game and it pisses me off but it should not be a distraction from Kevin. This is his shitestorm.
Rob, because I read what others have read as well puts me in his sandbox? I am not happy that he also dragged this out for buyers but your group did the same. Its you who are on his level, not me.
Don't you dare call it "my group" again. I had nothing to do with any of it. Zero. So stop making bullshit inferences, they are not appreciated.
The fact that you think I did tells me even more about you though, and the way you think.
This thread has been a true eye opener for me in many ways. Some of the idiocy and ignorance I've seen posted in this thread will forever kill the credibility of some people for me (no need to mention them by name).
Quoted from fastpinball:I told him that he needed to get me a detailed breakdown of all the money. What was in paypal. What was in other accounts. What was spent on parts he got. What was spent on stuff he was waiting for. All of it. I said if someone was going to help him sort it out or "invest", he needed to do the BARE MINIMUM and get his stuff in order. He was going to get right on it! I asked Doug if he would help and he said he would.
But can you guess if that detailed break down of the money was ever produced??? NOPE.
This, sadly, indicates a strong likelihood that a large portion of the money is gone.
Quoted from CaptainNeo:yes it would have been ok, because people got the game they wanted and paid for. Other than that, I think most wouldn't give a shit.
No morals? this is the self righteous shit I was talking about. So you don't have a Tron arcade mod, or any aftermarket toppers on your machines? None of those little lamp shades with the name of the game lasercut into it? You don't buy into unlicensed stuff ever? I call bullshit.
I look at it like this. If you make something cool and selling it, i'll buy it, licensed or not. If it saves me $50 because it's unlicensed, so much the better. I'm not afraid to admit it and most are in the same club. With Kevin making the predator pin, is he taking money out of the pocket of fox? Was fox planning on making the game themselves? Nope, they didn't give a shit and were not going to cash in on it in the slightest. So I don't look at it as all that bad if he would have pulled it off. buyers would have been happy. People got something for their money. Another pin would be floating around the community. Fox would keep on airing their shit reporting news show. Life goes on.
It doesn't matter and you're just making excuses for him, this is not a case of if he could have got away with it, he made a choice for the 250 and put our money at risk just to be "punk rock" and then lied about it when he could have just as easily aquired a license. I'm not on some moral high horse and very well may have bought a predator without license but not with $4750 on the line before it's even built, I'm not that big of a gambler. His intentions started good but turned terribly wrong after the C&D.
Speaking of Aaron from fast. An interesting thing he mentioned that got looked over when things went nuclear was Aaron said kevin was trying to get money back from the cabinet guy. I have my concerns about this cabinet guy too.
Quoted from PinChili:**personal info removed by mod**
Business do NOT ahve to be registered in the state of operation.
Many times, a lot of companies are registered in Delaware, due to cheaper incorporation fees and easier paperwork.
Quoted from RobT:RobT
Pinside immortal
Quoted from RobT:The fact that you think I did tells me even more about you though
Did not until you started saying what you were and placing me on his level for being upset at someones intent. Lets be very clear you took my non generalized statement and A. Took it to heart and B decided to attack me. Mr High and mighty.You made it clear how you feel about me and your words made things clear to me. So we are on even ground. Only I dont do it at others expense ; )
Quoted from RobT:Don't you dare call it "my group" again.
Your group Your group Your group Your group ... 
Quoted from PinChili:**personal info removed by mod**
Ummm.... total creep factor man. Totally worthy of a down-vote...
Quoted from Skins:Speaking of Aaron from fast. An interesting thing he mentioned that got looked over when things went nuclear was Aaron said kevin was trying to get money back from the cabinet guy. I have my concerns about this cabinet guy too.
Is the cabinet guy the new "joe the plumber"?
Quoted from nintendo:Ummm.... total creep factor man. Totally worthy of a down-vote...
Because why? I just find it interesting that only a few months she was on Facebook talking about completely remaking (or making?) her "new studio" and was getting all new equipment. I thought that might be relevant for folks wondering where their money might have went.
Quoted from TheZohan:Been thinking this about a few games, anyone else feel like I do, that Pinside shouldn't have games that really don't exist yet in the Archive?
The games in archive are also tagged to threads and indexable by forum. For that purpose it is very helpful to have project games in the archive as it helps find threads.. Helpful even now finding the refund activity threads:
https://pinside.com/pinball/archive/predator/forum
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