Guns N' Roses (CE)
Jersey Jack, 2020
Guns N' Roses (LE)
Jersey Jack, 2020
Guns N' Roses (SE)
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Quoted from CoolCatPinball:I'm still playing with some sound settings, but I wish the callouts were a bit more audible during songs. This is my first JJP machine and I was hoping for better audio. This game NEEDS an external sub.
Adding an external sub won't help the backbox, unfortunately. Here's a link to our Super Kit if you want to take your GnR audio to the next level:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
PW-GT-8-JJP-SPK - coin door (resized).jpgQuoted from Jecco74:Dan at pinwoofer is great to work with... I love his speaker and amp set ups!
Wow - what a great compliment! Here's something from our blog that's relevant to the audio discussion over the past day:
Below is the account of what we did here at PinWoofer to our Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP) electronics in an attempt to improve the backbox sound field, and to address some of the constraints inherent in the platform.
First, the JJP backbox consists of a mid-range speaker and dome tweeter on each side. The speaker components themselves are well aligned to what one will find in a high fidelity speaker system having a separate tweeter/mid-range/(woofer) arrangement enclosed in a speaker cabinet. The JJP backbox speaker enclosure is at / near ear-level which differs from most other pinball platforms (honestly, it looks VERY cool). The JJP tweeters point directly at the player. But, here is the critical part - the mid-range backbox speakers point vertically and the sound is reflected off of internal wood panels, angled towards the player position. This is a unique speaker implementation in pinball. So, does it matter? We think it does because the mid-range is reflected towards the listener as opposed to facing the player.
Imagine your home theater system in your viewing room and your listening perspective being from an adjacent room or hallway. Ask yourself how would it sound. The reflections of otherwise clean audio will be altered by walls, floors, ceiling and doorways. Perhaps the result can be described as an "echoing" effect as mid-range sound energy is absorbed as it propagates and reflects towards the listener perspective. This of course is not ideal and this scenario may be a slight exaggeration of the backbox experience of a JJP title compared to a Stern title for example, but you get the point. The reflected mid-range sounds emanating from the backbox change as energy is lost due to the reflection, and the listener receives something that has been altered by the environment, easily described as a loss of mid-range fidelity. So, the conclusion is that the resulting audio from the listeners perspective is not at its full potential. (JJP uses good backbox mid-range speakers and if they were facing the player, they would sound better.) Skilled listeners hear the effects of this placement and readily understand the problem; casual listeners have simply described the sound as "tinny".
JJP has taken the approach of adding a sound bar on top of the CE backbox and while this is a potential means to partially "fix" the platform issues discussed above (that is, making up for reflected mid-range speakers), to do this yourself on a SE/LE, you now have additional wiring from the cabinet and additional power cables cluttering your area. You need a solution to affix the sound bar so it does not vibrate and fall onto the playfield glass. Add an external sub and these problems are compounded (a complex and messy solution). Also, and too important to not mention, are the lack of equalization and tone controls which is something that the PinWoofer GT amplifier provides as part of its rich feature set, but not available today in the menu settings of most / all JJP titles.
In an attempt to address / mitigate the above constraints, we set out to add back in some of the high bass and mid-range to temper the "tinny" character of the platform by making changes to our Expander Board(TM). In large part we feel that we were successful considering the constraints. Feedback has been positive for JJP titles and we are finding that we have something that has improved the backbox field and of course, there is no question the bass emanating from the cabinet sub is dramatically improved with the PinWoofer GT amplifier and speaker upgrade.
The network analyzer curve from our JJP Expander Board shows in part, how we have addressed backbox response through targeted filtering of the signal presented to the pre-amp. Even with observed high-end roll-off there is an abundance of high end treble.
It is unfortunate that you pay $8-12K for a world-class title (and JJP has some great ones) only to find yourself trying to select, add and to juggle external sound bars, subwoofers, audio splitters and cables, only to end up with a lackluster solution. You'll have no means to fine-tune the tone and levels from a central location. You are stuck with the defaults after all of that time, effort and expense. The cost of adding the parts and pieces for external components is comparable to the PinWoofer solution and our solution requires little effort to install and includes tech support. The PinWoofer solution is by far the easiest solution, delivering superior audio with perfect all-internal integration!
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-audio-overview/
Quoted from fooflighter:What about instead of the soundbar solution ---> 1 for the looks with the grill off, and 2 for the larger dome/cone for a richer sound
Hey fooflighter ! Why would you put a mono / center channel sound bar on a stereo backbox? thx
Quoted from Sako-TRG:Hey PinMyster.......
Have you had time to look at an external top setup for GnR?
Your probably laughing at us amateurs with our crap posts about Sound Bars and splitters
We are probably going to create grounding loops etc.........
Hey Sako-TRG ! No way, not laughing at anyone here - just trying to invoke some thoughts.
We're waiting on GnR like a lot of guys so I can't speak yet. But, as you might imagine we have A LOT of audio toys here and have tried pretty much everything we can think of. The sound bar is a bit confusing; it might add a some fidelity but seems like a patch to the underlying problem. Our approach is to address to the greatest extent the system already in the backbox. Not saying the sound bar is a bad solution, we just have a different approach. Here is a boring white-paper I posted to our website:
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-audio-overview/
With regard to ground loops I can say that power is everythying in audio. Many AC to DC (adapter) powered products (like those that power external sound bars) have a virtual ground that when connected to another system, can give rise to a ground loop like you suggested. For backbox sound this difference in ground, or using the internal 12V ATX power tap, can result in a terrible 60Hz buzz or hum that you'll be hard pressed to get rid of. This condition is totally hit and miss (some will get lucky, some will not), just something to be aware of.
Quoted from fooflighter:Just thinking out loud, someone posted that the soundbar made it too bright and that is just increasing the top end and didn't seem necessary, while others said turning the volume up had some callout breakup ... Was just thinking that a center channel could act like an L C R setup in a home theater... seems like the sub ad on has a bigger impact.
Yea that's our experiece; adding more small speakers and tweeters up top gets you the expected result of more high end! At the same time, the backbox is vital to good sound and can't be overlooked (more bass is not an end-all solution). So, we addressed the JJP backbox response in a different way by fine-tuning our Expander Board(TM) to provide a stronger response in the mid-range and attenutaiton of those bright forward facing tweeters. It helps to add amplification at any listening level so that mids and low bass do not compete with the highs, which results is a cleaner signal with more dynamic range. (Our power solution and amplifier are engineered to be super quiet.)
Guys are telling us that adding up everything to go external (sub/sound bar/cables) ends up being on par with our system in terms of cost, and our system is far easier to install and risk-free in terms of power playing into a ground loop. (Bzzzzzzzzzzz)
Thanks!
Quoted from Sako-TRG:I agree, I'm an amateur and just read the whitepaper link above. Looks great to me so will check back when I get my LE.
I'll reserve the space above the pin for a paper mache sculpt of Slashes head or something
If any pin is deserving of a proper sound upgrade - this must be it!
Thanks - I needed a good laugh!
Quoted from Jack8765:Sorry if I’m missing something. Your kit adds an amp and a crossover (and a new sub), and that sends more mids and lows to the backbox. But how does that solve for the reflection issue with the mid-range speakers that you cite? Seems JJP could have just adjusted the crossover points? I’m interested in your solution, just trying to make sense of the logic and why this would negate the need (or desire) to add a soundbar. Thanks.
No worries Jack8765 - you clearly read and understood our JJP blog post. (https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-audio-overview/)
There are filters (including crossovers) in different parts of our system. However, it makes more sense to me to talk about what we did in terms of the audio spectrum so I attached a Bode Plot showing level versus frequency. What you see in the plot is the spectrum as we modify it, prior to feeding it into the PinWoofer pre-amp. What you might commonly think of in terms of a crossover point between the cabinet and backbox is somewhere between box A and box B, internally, because our cabinet and backbox amplifier stages are separate with individual level controls. Here are the design goals we used for JJP:
(Green Line - pre-amplifier input reference)
Goals:
Box A - increase bass to the cabinet and backbox stages,
Box B - increase mid-range to the backbox stage,
Box C - attenuate treble to the backbox stage.
So to answer your question, yes, we send more mids and high bass to the backbox. We also trail off the treble and while you might think box C is dramatic, it's not. There is an abundance of high end. So much so that guys usually report back with middle adjust of the treble control if not less. This is owing to the forward facing tweeters that are at ear level. When you add amplification and dynamic range it is necessary to attenuate the treble a bit in this case, but the result is a brilliant high-end.
While we do not claim to have solved the topology problem (the reflection of the mid-range drivers), this was our attempt to address / mitigate the issue as much as possible. We found the "tinny" effect to result from the C box (i.e. tweeters stronger than the mid speakers) so we biased the expander board to ring up the frequencies below that band, and attenuate the frequencies within it. We think it helped.
Sound Bars. The CE Sound Bar has an integrated mounting solution but adding one later is going to be a pain to secure and you'll have the wiring. Your results will also depend on the sound bar you select. If you do, be careful not to select a mono bar since you'll end up mashing stereo from the stock backbox with mono. Other concerns if its a 3-channel bar. A good stereo sound bar is not cheap and many units have small speakers (2" - 3") which don't really improve the mids and high-bass. When we tried it the sound field quality was not dramatically improved. Some sound bars have larger speakers but they scale up in cost, weight and size rapidly.
Adding external components are work to get right and may end up costing more than simply adding the PinWoofer system. It's debatable that you'll get a equivalent or better result and it certainly won't be integrated.
Best wishes regardless of what you choose to do; we're here to provide a stellar option that drops in quickly and delivers great results.
Here is the GnR system we recommend:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
Thanks for your time!
Quoted from PinballGalore:thanks, just the kind of detailed reply I was hoping for!
If anyone would like an international shipping quote please PM me - I can offer a lower price than the shipping quotes provided on the website.
Also, below is a link to the recommended system for GNR:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
Thanks!
Quoted from fnosm:Is this the same system you recommend for the CE? Does if work with (change/improve,...) the CE topper sound bar?
Yes, same recommended system which is 100% compatible with the sound bar.
Feedback is that the PinWoofer system improves the backbox to where its quality surpasses that of the sound bar. But, keeping the sound bar in play does not negatively impact the quality of the sound field. The sound bar is stereo and arguably, the added surface area of the drivers should serve to help the mid-ranges. The PinWoofer amp has a treble control which is used to attenuate the strong forward facing tweeters as needed.
Quoted from kermit24:Don't think the soundbar would be impacted at all. I believe the sound bar has its own internal amplifier. The Pin Woofer setup replaces the JJP amp for the backbox and cabinet speakers.
Agree - 100%.
Quoted from mrbillishere:Is it just me? (and yes, it might be) -- I find that OOTB Axl's vocals are simply too dominant. Certain pitches he frequently sings in seem way too loud, comparatively speaking. I wasn't under the impression that they were high-enough to be picked up by the tweeters but perhaps yes?
Suffice it to say that's what pushed me down the soundbar path in the first place. Now that I've gone there I will add that the addition of more bass is also a plus but, yeah, maybe my ears are just overly sensitive to the octave Axl sings in? IDK.
OTOH, if JJP would add even a rudimentary parametric equalizer to the settings menu (or find a way to expose anything that the audio circuitry has built-in like DSP pre-sets) I'd bet that would suffice too.
I would estimate that only 10-20% of the vocals content are reproduced in the tweeters in terms of intensity (not power). That might be fun to measure sometime...
Even if EQ features are added to the menu in the future you will still be limited by the stock power amplifier. Not that you want to listen loud, but more power is always better at any level because it increases dynamic range and promotes better separation of the bass/mids/highs. There is no substitute for added power.
It is nice to have separate backbox and cabinet level controls. Simple, but powerful.
-Dan
Quoted from adrock:I have the CE on order, so I'm primarily concerned about the bass... since hopefully I'll have sufficient mids/highs from the soundbar.
Hey adrock !
Adding bass is a great start but in our opinion the backbox is too often overlooked and is a vital part of the overall experience.
We've had feedback from a small number of CE owners and I'll ask them to comment on their thoughts of the sound bar, before and after adding our system. I'll ask...
We're working to update our blog to what we think are the optimal settings for the machine and the GT amplifier. That should happen today and I'll share.
Thanks for your comments!
Quoted from estrader:Any of you guys buy the pinwoofer bracket and is it helpful? I really don’t want to drill the bottom of the cabinet to install it.
Quoted from nicoy3k:You only need it if you want to move your game without unplugging the amp. Seems pretty useless to me. The amp is heavy and has nice grip.
We supply Velcro sticky pads by default and you can use those to secure the amplifier. (The amplifier can bounce around a bit at high volume levels and the Velcro pads are adequate to prevent this.)
The SAM installation video below shows in detail using high-bond double sticky tape (which we do not supply) and this is a way to avoid screws. Here is that video and the bracket is at approximately 2:58:
https://pinwoofer.com/videos/ => "How to Install the PinWoofer GT SAM Super Kit"
(The JJP installation video is on the same page.)
The brackets are popular and the majority of orders include them. We think its a useful and elegant finishing touch.
Best wishes!
GNR - Bracket - Black - JJP - GNR - CE (resized).jpegQuoted from nicoy3k:Update: total user error on my end. I had my speaker wires pinched in the backbox, happened when I moved my game.
Thrilled that you located the source of the issue nicoy3k after our support emails yesterday. If the amplifier outputs (any channel, + or - wire) are in contact with a ground or each other, the amplifier will panic momentairly and that likely was the source of the popping sound.
Thank for all of the nice accolades, guys!
Now that we've got our copy of GNR and have it dialed in I'd say its among the best sounding titles of all time.
Tweeters - with the factory backbox and sound board you can get away with the originals but adding PinWoofer power absolutely necessitates our aftermarket tweeters. Because of the world-wide shipping glut and supply constraints, we can't offer the tweeters on their own, but you are guaranteed to get them when you purchase the late JJP PinWoofer system (i.e. GNR). (Existing late JJP PinWoofer owners can still purchase one set per serial number as a stand alone.)
Adding external bass is great if that's what you like (and our system and accessories support it), but doing that alone - you'll miss out on the rich array of well mastered audio. You really have to hear it to understand. The percussion effects from the jets are amazing and punch hard - like the drum kit is in the machine. There are a huge array of effects that are masterfully done and crystal clear; little guitar riffs and things you don't otherwise hear with clarity. You can also play loud. Slash's Les Paul / Marshall combination is amazing too.
We're hugely excited about GNR.
Have fun!
Quoted from MGM2:Added a Pinwoofer superkit to my CE as I thought the base was really non-existent. I’m no audiophile but wow, it made a huge difference as I can now hear and feel it! Also the voices and everything else sounds crisper too.
Great outcome MGM2 - super happy to see this feedback - have fun with it!
Quoted from Drac:That all sounds great! Just to clarify; the link above has the tweeters included with the kit or is that something you purchase individually?
Hey Drac - the upgraded tweeters are included with the new kit and that is the correct link. Thanks for asking!
Quoted from pinballgas:I installed the Pinwoofer GNR upgrade kit today, on my LE, and I highly recommend this aftermarket enhancement. Prior to installing, I thought the sound was muddled and harsh with no base from the cabinet speaker. I guess with no amp to drive the woofer, it doesn't work to good. The new tweeters made the biggest improvement. The game now has great stereo imaging and clear voice callouts. And with the amp, the new woofer shakes the cabinet. By far the best mod for this pin.
Thanks SubDude Audio PinWoofer
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
That's a great summary pinballgas !
You're spot on with your description of the improved stereo imaging. One example - the loops have stereophonic effects that track the ball from side to side which was very clever. There are countless other wonders in the track that you simply cannot hear with clarity out of the box. Here is the link again:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
Below is some reading in case you're interested in our assessment:
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-audio-overview/
Have fun!
-Dan
Quoted from Mattyk:Just wondering if anyone has tried this? For the cost it looks like it’s a no brainer but I haven’t actually seen any videos comparing the sound before and after except for the chart in his video
Greetings - please let me say that I don't want to discourage guys from trying new things so I'll be as objective as possible.
This specific mod is a similar to the PinWoofer V2 cabinet sub kit. We've had feedback specific to this implementation that there is an excessive amount of noise, owing to the power solution which is an AC to DC wall converter. There are two noise issues that have been reported to us. The first issue is that the wall converter (which I believe is always on, even when the machine is turned off utilizing the service outlet) has a virtual ground and therefore you have a likelihood of creating a ground loop which results in a "hum" or "buzz". The second is a "hiss" which is a consequence of Johnson-Nyquist noise originating from the output of the amplifier that drives the cabinet speaker. You may or may not get a noisy result, and if you do, you may not care or will be able to live with it.
Please note that the old PinWoofer V2 implementation used an internal 12V power tap that shares a ground with the factory amplifier, and powers off with the machine.
Our new GT system has a very quiet power solution and auto-muting so any potential residual noise is inaudible.
One final note. Please use caution on this DIY. We had a customer who connected a high-low converter backwards at the sub and damaged his amplifier board. The root-cause was a dead short at the output of the amplifier since the connection was reversed.
Quoted from screaminr:I really want to get one of these , would love to see a , step-by-step video install .
I watched the Wonka install and thought it rushed a few steps , and wasn't very clear and with the new tweeters install , I'm just not sure .
I don't want to spend a lot of money on this mod and fuck up , the install process .
Hey screaminr - we have detailed instructions that we share before your system is delivered. We also have many, many systems out there and you likely won't have a problem during install, but if you do, we offer tech support. (I've talked to a bunch of you guys, even in Australia!)
Quoted from fooflighter:I just ordered. I have an external sub (great quality Klipsch R112SW) that provides plenty of bass, but the problem now is equalization, the callouts get drowned out and are muddied even with the default gain turned up, the imaging is unremarkable. It just feels like it's missing so much in the mid to hi range. I'm hoping the extender board and equalization amp really round things out, as well as the ability to tweak the sound to my liking which is pretty non-existent in the software.
My sub does double duty via an RCA switchbox that I use with my bookshelf speakers, also Klipsch (R41PM), I really want to keep it in the loop - just the sub, the bookshelfs are not included in the pin selection. Will keeping it in the mix with the pinwoofer setup have an adverse affect? Or will it just balance out the sub nodes. I'm a fan of 2+ sub setups
Thanks
Hey fooflighter ! We've got this new offering:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-line-trimmer/
This accesory will enable you to jack into the hot line-out of the PinWoofer GT amp and control your external sub volume at the coin door location. This item is designed to work with our GT amp but not recommended for other situations.
Good times!
LineTrimmerCartoon (resized).jpgQuoted from LTG:Please add that you hooked the Pinwoofer GT up and then it started doing this.
Without all the details, you'll get help that won't help.
LTG : )
We already spoke. This is a BIOS / boot error and has nothing to do with the audio. Maybe he needs a fix for the beta software version he's been running, or the full game USB image for GNR (which is not yet posted on your website). I'm not sure.
LTG - I recommended that he get with you so can you offer some assistance. If it comes down to it, please provide me the BIOS code and I'll debug it.
Thanks
Quoted from fooflighter:It will now boot normally despite the one error message at the beginning. (recovering journal)[quoted image]
My GNR reports similar boot errors and journal recovery.
The /dev/sda3 journal file is probably left open when the machine is shut off at the power sequence and this is Unbuntu's way of reporting a fix to the open file handle. Since this PC does not really have a classic off switch this is likely unavoidable.
Seems like the BIOS error should be addressed with an update?
Quoted from punkin:There's some discussion on this exact question on the Deadpool owners thread atm. They could do with your input i'd reckon being as someone who has tried stand alone sub and sub with Pinwoofer as that was what the question was yesterday.
Hey PunkPin ! I put some comments out there earlier. The gadgets for the external stuff are fun and some guys eat it up, so we support it. (Like your stuff that went missing in the outback last month when we thought a Dingo ate it!)
Our focus still remains on the internal integration since that's where most of the interest lies - provide a great sounding system that's easy to install. But, we'll help anyone reach their goals.
Good times!
Quoted from PinWoofer:My GNR reports similar boot errors and journal recovery.
The /dev/sda3 journal file is probably left open when the machine is shut off at the power switch and this is Unbuntu's way of reporting a fix to the open file handle. Since this PC does not really have a classic off sequence this is likely unavoidable.
Seems like the BIOS error should be addressed with an update?
[quoted image]
Quoted from Chambo:Australia has more than 250 day one orders still waiting to be fulfilled (287 of all models were ordered on day one)
The CEs will be sorted very soon but I fear us LEs will be waiting some time…
In the spirit of pinball, we just want the Aussie shipments to get there safe and SOON and for you guys get your pins! We're gunning for you! Hang in there...its just a matter of time.
Quoted from Pinhead1982:What is this Pinwoofer Kit I’ve been hearing about? How easy to install is it?
Here is the system for GNR:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
Installation for most guys is less than an hour with a few common hand tools for the speakers, and the electronics are plug and play.
Shipping to UK is no problem.
Good times!
Quoted from Vespula:Must... Have.... Tweeters.
Thanks Vespula - apprciate the clarification!
WoZ YBR, Dialed In!, Pirates, Wonka and GNR do include the tweeter upgrade. Since March of 2021 you can buy it on PinSide or on the site link below and you'll get tweeters:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
We'll review and as needed fix the listing on PinSide.
Dan
Quoted from wcbrandes:Is there directions for putting in the tweeters? everything else is installed with same external sub as yours however got the tweeters late as they were not apart of package when bought. Cheers
wcbrandes - install is pretty straightforard but give a shout if you need my assistance.
Quoted from wcbrandes:All straight forward however can not get the back glass back in as it is hitting the tweeters? Also don't see any side on tweeters that's flatter? Cheers
I talked with wcbrandes and we've got a plan to get him going. Thanks for chiming in guys!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Thanks for everyone's help and I have to say the sound now is sooooo much better than stock although I too have a 12 inch external sub! The highs needed attention for sure so thankyou Pinwoofer!
My pleasure! Please note that the fit issue was resolved months ago by adding the scallop as punkin indicated. Enjoy!
Quoted from psexton:Just installed the pinwoofer kit with 8 inch sub and tweeters. Wow, what a difference. Everything sounds better and more clear, including the call outs. I also hear sounds like the points incrementing that I really never noticed before. And the bass rocks the machine and is great. I did have to wedge foam on my backglass as it was rattling. Like someone stated earlier, spending $10k plus on an LE and not spending around $350 for the pinwoofer is a mistake. Must have IMO.
Great outcome 
psexton ! GNR has officially become the top selling title at PinWoofer:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-gt-8in-jjp-super-kit/
Have fun!
Quoted from Vespula:Awesome. I think that calls for a proper, dedication to gnr on that page with pics now that Wonka is dethroned.
That sounds like fun - we reached out to Slash and offered him a complimentary PinWoofer system but received no response (and that's OK). It would have been epic since he was so insturmental during development of the title!
Thanks for the accolades guys!
Quoted from PanzerFreak:Pinwoofer Super Kit is the first mod I will be installing. I'm ready to crank this game up! Should be having an LE being delivered today.
GO PanzerFreak !
Quoted from tdiddy:Yeah I'm thinking the same
Add the PinWoofer system and I think you'll agree that GNR is among the best sounding titles ever, if not the best. The install is pretty easy too, and you can view the installation video here:
Please scroll down to "How to Install the PinWoofer GT Jersey Jack Pinball Super Kit".
Quoted from darkryder:Haven't played a single game since I unboxed it. Planning install full Cliffy protectors, PETG washers and address all known issues with the game before I hit the start button...The Pinwoofer GT kit sounds fricking amazing, what a difference! Will continue to enjoy jukebox mode for now
Man oh man - just wait until you get into some game play - have fun!
Quoted from deejaypee:With direct wired connections, I’m not too worried about lag. I only wonder if anyone who has the game knows whether there is an easy line out connector or if I’ll need to splice. I should have everything on hand to do it either way, I was just hoping it would be simple is all.
Maybe 20% of guys tell me that they like the out of the box sound of GNR. But, the negative reports are truly negative and dominant. There does not seem to be a distinct in-the-middle segment compared to other titles.
Lots of guys have added external stuff and reported in this thread, often spending large sums to get a decent result (sometimes on the cheap too). Consider also that adding external stuff means wires routed about the machine, additional speakers and the problem of a mounting solution for them, and the AV amps needed to tie it all together.
The PinWoofer system keeps everything integrated and at the same time provides many tricks of the trade needed to get an amazing sound field specific to pinball. Our gear is easy to install too which is hugely important to a lot of guys who just want an epic upgrade and to get back to playing pinball. Guys see the value our product and invest in their title to improve it.
I don't think this is where you are going, but the stock audio hardware in the machine when left in play will be audible and the sound field will suffer.
If you want my help in trying some of this stuff you can call the shop and I can advise. Or, add the PinWoofer system like scores of guys and you'll get an amazing result. Thanks for your attention:
Quoted from daveyvandy:Here are my pinwoofer amp settings for reference. I think it's dialed in pretty well, but curious if you guys have other settings. Those knobs are sensitive![quoted image][quoted image]
Thanks for sharing that daveyvandy ! Below are the recommended initial settings from our blog for reference and include some menu changes. The Music and Fanfare Mix settings when lowered, seem to level the music with the rest of the track as the meter rises during song mode. If you want the music to rise and get insanely loud they can be dialed back towards the default (75):
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-pinball-guns-n-roses-amplifier-settings/
Quoted from PanzerFreak:For Pinwoofer owners did you install the anti rattle tape on your Invisiglass? Does it matter what side of the glass it goes on? I'm not sure if the anti rattle tape adhesive would cause any damage to the Invisiglass glass.
Hey PanzerFreak - the GT electronics minimize most of the terms that give rise to glass shake, with limits, so we supply the glass tape.
I recommend putting the tape on top. The only reason being less friciton on the tape itself from the weight of the glass when taking it in and out, so the thinking is that the tape will bond longer.
IG is a bit thicker than Tempered Glass so I recommend taping just one side (left or right) and first try that for fit so you don't end up with a tight glass. If it is too tight, abort.
The tape adhesive is acrylic and neutral Ph (7 +/- 0.1). I can't imagine glass being even remotely sensitive to it.
Quoted from Ecw0930:I know this is an old post, but it's definitely worth reading and looking into.
I used to do a little car audio and this and that so I an understand the basics of this. Reflecting sound is never as clear and "seperated" as direct sound. The bounce will muffle it and muddy it.
I also read some posts about the crossovers in the system being adequate as is.
So, has anyone tried making a bracket for the speakers to make them face out instead of up? Making a bracket is super easy and could be done precisely and effectively rather quickly.
I mean this is what you do in cars and home audio. You point the speakers so that the sound is the best. You move the eq's and the fade/balance so that it is centered where you want it. Simply pointing the speakers AT the target could do a good enough job if you are not an audiophile and just want better sound.
Not downplaying Pinwoofer. That is EXACTLY what should be done to really optimize everything. In fact, that system with a forward facing bracket could be even better!
Interesting post Ecw0930 !
If you want to put smaller, forward facing speakers and keep the factory speaker panel in play, you're pretty limited because of the height of the rectangular openings. A 2-1/2" might work but you'll need to enclose them with a new sub-panel so they are not running open-air. Keep in mind (as you probably know) that a smaller speaker will yield less low-mid range content (i.e. less high-bass content) because of its smaller diameter. Awhile back we viewed improving the factory speaker panel mid drivers as a dead-end and concluded that the poly drivers in the JJP backbox are of excellent quality - I'm quite satisfied with where thing have ended up for the PinWoofer system because of the other things we've done to work within the existing topology.
You might add a high quality sound bar but be cautious - even some of the "better" sound bars out there are complete garbage. Some are meant for home theater and are mono (i.e. not stereo). Some are quite expensive. Some guys have done just this (and made a custom mounting solution) but you might need to add either an amp or a pre-amp, and you'll need to route power, etc. There are a lot of ways a sound bar project can get complicated and expensive, and there is a risk that it will not really pay off in terms of better audio.
Best wishes!!!
Quoted from screaminr:So the GT is still the way to go .
Hey screaminr !
Well...not necessarily. I would put it this way. For GNR, if you plan to add externals such as a powered sub or stage / AV monitors, the GT facilititates these capabilities. But, many of the features of the GT are overkill for this title and there is a premium to get these features. Most guys don't go the external route and have been craving simplicity and the lower price point served by the KO.
We still offer the GT so if you want to go that route, we'll take great care of you!
Hope that helps.
Thanks,
Dan
Quoted from Vespula:But what about da sound?
Can audiophile ears hear a difference?
Over my years in all my A/B comparisons of amplifiers there's usually always SOME difference... Whether it's discrete circuitry, quality of electronics, all resulting in things like better dynamics, frequency sensitivity, soundstage, etc. For me even if the features aren't needed, if the GT sounds better, even slightly, that's the one I want!
Hey Vespula !
The final ampifier stage electronics are identical so there is no planned difference in sound, just features.
I agree with what you are saying in terms of hearing things if you listen to many copies. But, put another way, the variance within different amplifier model (GT to KO, or KO to GT), is not expected to be different compared with the variance within the same amplifier model (GT to GT, or KO to KO).
I strongly recommend that you choose based upon features.
Why did I think you already had a PinWoofer system in play for GNR???
Thanks!
Dan
Quoted from DeathHimself:So what are folks using to eliminate that JJP speaker pops on bootup? I know they sell a ground loop isolater but I think that's more for humming sounds rather then the popping but I could be wrong. I know others made a relay timing board to cut sound off to the speakers until x amount of time passes but is there anything else at this point we can use or does the isolater device work?
A ground loop isolator addresses most of the hum as you suggested, but it does not address the pops. harryhoudini offered some sort of relay on a timer item awhile back so you might check with him.
Quoted from RA77:The THUMP and POP on boot up I dislike greatly. I wish JJP would get rid of it.
Its appears to be an audio pop, can't it be muted somehow ?
Is it really that difficult ?
Quoted from Shmilder:Does the pin woofer kit address any of these issues?
The difference in ground between the motherboard and the machine is what gives rise to a ground loop and hum / stray audio noise. A ground loop isolator is the way to address this and they are cheap and easy to come by in case yours is missing and you need one.
The initialization pops are produced by the motherboard audio hardware during power up, DAC and PGA initialization. (This is cheap / minimal audio circuitry.) Therefore, the pops are present in the motherboard output signal during boot. The amplifier is not responsible for this. When you hear the pops its just the amplifier doing its job - reproducing what's provided at the input. Adding an aftermarket sound card (and using the Linux ASLA audio driver) is a likely solution, but a heavy lift and I doubt the manufacturer cares much about it, and is not at all interested in adding the cost to solve it this way. Another way to eliminate it is to open the signal or speaker lines until after boot, like the gadget we've been talking about.
Shout-out to PinMonk - I've talked to a couple of guys who say your cooling system makes a difference for long ball play so I'm considering trying a set. While I've seen your coil temperature data over time, do you have any transducer type data that shows the flipper energy as a funciton of temperature? I guess in the end it don't matter if the results are there. Just trying to wrap my head around why the flipper energy goes down as the coil temp goes up. Maybe the coil expands / the sleeve shrinks around the coil plunger which increases friction? thx
Quoted from holminone:Basic physics. Resistance goes up as temperature increases. More resistance, less magnetism. And don’t hesitate. I just installed mine. The game turns into a dream machine. It was already but the consistency and feel of the flippers will make you feel like a hero.
Great answer holminone ! I like it - feel like a hero
Quoted from PinMonk:On the Tibetan Breeze product page there's a link to an experiment that demonstrates the issue. Heat increases electrical resistance in the coil wire windings, so as the resistance increases, the same amount of energy sent to the coil produces less work (and even more heat). That's why superconduction happens when a medium is massively cool - it removes electrical resistance. Hot coils are the opposite of that, and when a coil can't conduct electricity, its magnetic power is reduced.
If you play more than 30 minute sessions at a time, you will notice a difference with the active cooling of the Tibetan Breeze kit.
One of Karl's (iepinball) livestreams with the temp gauges running is still up. It shows how the fans (they're installed) keep the temps down. You can also see how hot the left ramp diverter gets (it's uncooled in this video):
Great explanation, thanks!
Quoted from kermit24:Stock speakers are terrible. The sub is just masking the terrible sound. PinWoofer is a huge difference.
Greetings kermit24 !
Some think GNR out of the box is OK but we've had scores of guys say the exact opposite and you were spot on with your post. The PinWoofer system takes it to the next level and this is not your typical pinball machine - there's HUGE potential waiting to be unlocked. The track contains things that you simply won't hear with the stock setup (which is gritty and distorted). The jet action puts Frank's kit right in front of you loud and clear, the effects are well defined and the stereophonic layout of the track present you with amazing spacial qualities as the ball travels around the loops. You're not going to hear theses details by adding an external - you'll get infinite bass but an "unrealized" experience because 90% of the audio content (and presence) is in the backbox.
To each his own...but since we were mentioned. Have fun and thanks for your attention!
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
Hey guys - lots of great discussion!
We have copies of two different JJP factory cabinet speakers and are aware of a third. These are the GRS 8PR-8 and the Pyramid WX85X, both made in China (as is the Goldwood GW-8024 we supply).
There are two ways to express power when discussing audio - "Peak" and "RMS". Peak is instantaneous power for practical purposes, and RMS is sort of an average based on a sine wave which approximates audio. When you see a power rating of 300W on that speaker I can assure you that is not RMS (it is a gimmick). The 8PR-8 is rated to 65WRMS, and the GW-8024 / WX85X are rated to 100WRMS. All technically have adequate power capability, but the 8PR-8 will bottom out (reach max excursion) with our amp whereas the other two are fine.
All three have a 1.5" diameter voice coil.
We've obviously listened to each and chose the GW-8024 because it sounds better. Mostly in the heavy percussion when the ball is bouncing in the jets, but other places too. Also, we know of the poor performing 8PR-8 so we need to ensure that everyone gets what's needed. Feel free to compare, but I'd urge you to utilize the GW-8024 we provide. I can't say that everyone will hear a difference but I am certain there is one, and we've received this feedback from others.
Below is a table of the weights for each speaker which is almost entirely driven by the magnet size:
GW-8024 - 3lb 2.2oz
WX85X - 2lb 10.5oz (-7.7oz compared to the GW-8024)
8PR-8 - 2lb 12.0oz (-6.2oz compared to the GW-8024)
The Pyramid has a large vent opening which likely explains some of the difference of 7.7oz compared to the GW-8024. All use ceramic magnet material so it does make one wonder how much has been "hollowed" out as part of that companies' cost reduction. There is a cliff where the magnet size does become important if not vital - I'll keep a heavier magnet in play any day of the week.
The image below shows the three side by side.
Thanks for your attention!
Driver Comparison (resized).jpgQuoted from RA77:I dunno if a CE really needs the PW upgrade ? a great option is to add an external sub.
Hey RA77 !
I can say with 100% confidence you'll get a massive improvement with the PinWoofer system - for all of the trims.
The CE sound bar has the same tweeters as the backbox. It also has the same 2.5" mid-range speakers used in WoZ and The Hobbit; these are full-range paper speakers and there are four of them. We recommend disabling the sound bar on the CE since it will "pollute" your new PinWoofer sound field. (We know this because we have evaluated this sound bar.)
External subs are great and I certainly will not knock them, but there is such a rich experience in the backbox that will go unrealized doing only this (also, most are satisfied with the great bass boost we provide and find they don't need an external). The entire audio spectrum supplements the bass and an external simply cannot reproduce these upper frequencies and fill in this content. The level of detail in GNR's track is indescribable - you have to hear it in order to fully understand it.
Thanks for your kind mention of us!
Quoted from holminone:Do you need or recommend the full eq kit or is it a good start to order the back box tweeter upgrade?
Hey holminone !
We're on allocation for tweeters due to the worldwide shipping glut. We did finally recieve some yesterday (waiting has been a real nail biter) and that order was placed in March. It is brutal out there so we need to conserve our tweeters for kits until things break loose.
Besides, I'd still recommend the entire kit - the factory amp is wimpy and while the tweeter upgrade is vital, you'll not get a significant improvement unless you also address the amplifier and power issues (which are solved by our system).
Here is the listing for JJP:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
Give a shout if you have any questions!
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
Quoted from Mattyk:Pardon me if this is a stupid question, but is there any concern with the vibrations the pinwoofer system causes in regards to node boards in stern games? Not sure if JJP has node boards as well. Could the vibrations from the bass cause issues?
Not at all - this is a good question Mattyk . We've never had a report of an issue due to acoustical vibration and there are scores of our systems out there, and for years. As a reference Spooky and other manufacturers add powered amplifiers and speakers to their titles in the same way. Consider also that many titles have shaker motors which produce far greater mechanical vibration compared to a cabinet speaker that adds more bass. There is not so much happening that the legs skip off the floor et cetera. Just more bass added to the cabinet in the right amount. Hope that helps.
Quoted from Vespula:Ah slightly deceptive, not on your part, but the goldwood magnet top says Chatsworth USA. Obviously that's just the company on the magnet. Because I see the little yellow sticker on the side of the magnet that says made in China. Lol. Got me.
You get it Vespula ! Goldwood has been around a long time and I believe they originally did manufacture in the USA. They are great to deal with - truly good people.
Quoted from deejaypee:Err, so I bought a pinwoofer kit from an owner who decided he didn’t want it, and I remember people having issues replacing the backglass after installing the new tweeters. And that’s me now. The instructions mention orienting the “bottom marker hole” downwards, but mine do not have these. Am I just supposed to keep rotating and reinstalling until the back glass fits again?
Quoted from Vespula:PinWoofer to rescue, but maybe a pic of your tweeter.
I replied to deejaypee who sent me a PM an hour ago - it will be easier to work with me on this one directly.
Quoted from PinWoofer:I replied to djpletcher who sent me a PM an hour ago - it will be easier to work with me on this one directly.
We're breaking this loose. Please note that this was a narrow scope issue that was corrected in March and affected only a small number of customers, all of whom were contacted and offered a remedy. All tweets since then have fit perfectly.
Quoted from Vespula:I recalled this sounded vaguely but hauntingly familiar being a very rare edge case that was posted a while back. Couldn't find the post though. Happy endings are good.
The bracket change was enough to give margin to those few that had the issue.
We also had a couple reports where the guy was unable to remove their backglass in the first place. Meaning, the glass from the factory is not removable using the key alone, and those guys needed to remove the speaker panel to access the backbox.
Quoted from deejaypee:Thanks for the help Dan!
My pleasure!
Quoted from deejaypee:Oh and I gotta say that Dan the man PinWoofer sent me the tweeter replacements for the pinwoofer system, and everyone is right, it makes the game a lot better. I ended up deviating quite a bit from the suggested settings (maybe because I have an external sub hooked up too), and DAYUM it sounds really really really good. I’ve only played a few games on it so far, but it feels like an all-new machine and I am happy/impressed!
Thanks for helping push me over the edge. Especially punkin !
Warms my heart - have fun with it buddy!
Quoted from PinballGalore:And mostly, mostly, I noticed the sound effects, speech, and base just amaze me. This is before tweaking, just did a five sec basic setup to the dials, and obviously I will be cranking the volume up tomorrow, but it’s definitely something I recommend.
[quoted image][quoted image]
Great work PinballGalore - have fun with it buddy!
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
PW-GT-8-4-SEGA-WS-SPK - Pinwoofer logo (resized).pngQuoted from dts:Just unboxed my GnR...Question: the higher range seems a bit distorted, can’t find an equalizer in the settings. Is there an amp I can adjust somewhere?
[quoted image][quoted image]
Greetings dts - problem solved:
Quoted from screaminr:Make sure you ask for the tape in your order , ( I think it's extra ) Dan is more than happy to help .
Hey screaminr !
We currently supply two 43" strips of tape with each kit which is normally enough. No need to ask when you order. However, we are supply constrained so we don't offer it separately. Tekman used to be the go-to guy for tape so you might check with him.
Quoted from CoolCatPinball:Just ordered a pinwoofer kit, so, I'll give the tape a shot. Thanks!
Hey CoolCatPinball ! You'll get tape. Also, there may be some shaker motor adjustments you can make to calm things down. Counterweight placement, etc., but you'll need to take it apart and assess it yourself (knowing that you are mechanically inclined) or else ask someone who knows more about it than I.
Please report back if you learn something!
Quoted from Greaseman:.....put my Pinwoofer GT in on Friday. Yowser - if you like your pinball music loud and awesome sounding, you need this. Love it - such a good match with GnR.
Quoted from Mar3nBu:…And for anyone on the fence on pinwoofer, I think it is a must have for this pinball! The sound quality it is really night and day plus Dan provides awesome support. I had a few questions while installing it and he was super quick to respond.
Since we were mentioned, that's great feedback guys - enjoy!
Here is the JJP kit for anyone that's interested - it's a game changer for GNR:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
PWL (resized).pngQuoted from Mattyk:For pinwoofer should I get the KO or GT? The higher cost is not an issue. Just wondering if there is a sound difference when using it for this game.
Greetings Mattyk - great question!
Both the GT and the KO have the same final amplifier stage (power) and the same tone / level controls so your decision comes down to features and price.
The feature matrix comparing the two amps is shown below. The GT includes a pre-amp which has a gain control, auto-muting and a studio level line out. The GT pre-amp features are vital for older machines (i.e. vital for WPCx/Data East/Sega/Whitestar) but less necessary for newer titles (i.e. less necessary for Spike and JJP).
One might choose the GT over the KO because they want the immediate studio level line output to run externals such as a sub or satellite / stage monitors (there are some fanatical guys out there).
If you choose the KO you can always add externals with any of the array of aftermarket offerings out there, or we can set you up later on with whatever gadgets you need for this.
For most, the KO is a perfect match to meet their goals.
Hope that helps!
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
GT vs KO Back Panel (resized).jpgscaled-pinwoofer-amplifier-feature-matrix (resized).jpgQuoted from deejaypee:Just wondering for you pinwoofer gt users out there… when I use the gain knob to prevent the auto-mute function from working (and making the lower level sound moments cut in and out), I get an unacceptable amount of hiss static from the mids and tweeters. It was driving me nuts, so now the game volume is always much higher than usual—then i can keep the gain knob low and it seems to let me play at reasonable levels without the hiss or the auto-mute happening most of the time. It just feels weird to be playing “quiet” games at volumes in the 20s.
It’s not really a problem, just feels weird. Is that how you guys deal with it? I don’t think there’s a way to disable auto-mute; I know the function is meant to help out older games more than the newer ones. I have yet to play a “quiet” game with this setup and I’m not sure I’ll be able to without the auto mute happening. I usually use headphones in quieter house times anyway, but I was thinking about guests who might want to play but keep it fairly quiet. Then again, if overstimulation is a problem for them, they probably shouldn’t be playing GNR anyway!
Hey deejaypee - please read through the new owner migration guide at the link below. Everything you need to know should be there. You can also contact me if you need help - I'm certain this is a matter of making some simple adjustments:
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-migration-to-new-owner/
There are also recommended settings below - once you set the gain to 2-3 o'clock you'll want to leave it there permanently:
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-pinball-guns-n-roses-amplifier-settings/
Quoted from Hayfarmer:Wife!!! Best help. Pull field as tight as you can to one side, wrap the blade around field so you can move it. We've gotten pretty good at it Also, wipe down walls with alcohol first
Awesome!
Quoted from Hayfarmer:Pinwoofer on gnr is the best that I've put on any machine yet. There's so much bass lost in the stock setup. I can't believe still how great it sounds. Best mod you can make in my opinion .
Oh yea - wait for that backbox to sink in.
Quoted from punkin:Transformed my Deadpool too.
Bless you punkin - wishing we had some new drop bear photos!
Quoted from reflex33:So I installed the pin woofer system the other day... 2 questions for the pin woofer experts here...
1. Maybe I'm just crazy, but at the suggested settings, I feel like it is very quiet. And I have to turn it up to around 10 o'clock on the volume dial to get a volume that I think the machine deserves. This means that if I really want to rock out, there isn't much room for overhead. Basically this question is about general volume. Not sure what I expected, but is the pin woofer system supposed to be... louder... but not extremely louder than the stock setup? If so, got it. Just wanted to make sure.
2. After installing the subwoofer, the bottom of my machine looks like the photo. Are the screws supposed to be sticking through like that?
[quoted image]
Please locate the bag of four #8-32 x 3/4" screws included with the cabinet speaker pack and use those, this way the screws won't extend below the cabinet.
Also, you can get as much as +88dB max at the player perspective. (Enough to make your ears ring after a time.) Try giving the red master volume knob some clockwise rotation.
Give a shout if you want some tips or dialog, and our sincere thanks!
Quoted from MJW:Definitely would like to have but don’t have printer and can’t order $80 worth.
Hope someone makes them avail. Ball gets stuck there a lot.
Hey Guys! I checked with Agima2000 and he approved printing some of these free of charge for disty to PinSider's. So, I printed some overnight. They are printed with PLA so there's no guarantee they will be strong enough to last the lifetime of the playfield, but free is free and who knows.
I'll send a few to @vespula, but is there a volunteer to take these off my hands and give them out? Thanks!
Quoted from PinWoofer:Hey Guys! I checked with Agima2000 and he approved printing some of these for free of charge disty to PinSider's. So, I printed some overnight. They are printed with PLA so there's no guarantee they will be strong enough to last the lifetime of the playfield, but free is free and who knows.
I'll send a few to Vespula, but is there a volunteer to take these off my hands and give them out? Thanks!
[quoted image]
Quoted from Vespula:I believe an earlier post from zaphX indicated the servo teeth may have rounded out (stripped) the grooves in the plastic cavity that's possibly why its slipping.
I don't know for sure. But I do have 6 Spotlight upgrade kits imported in over the next couple weeks from Germany if anyone wants one when they arrive.. I have 5 of 6 slots available @ $110 per kit shipped. PM me if you are interested in one of these remaining slots.
And there's more... Act now, and I will throw in a free bumper diverter! (thanks to PinWoofer )
Agima2000 deserves the credit for the clever design!
Quoted from holminone:BUT… is it better than a better than an above average external sub??? I’m not so sure. I would stack my setup against pinwoofer. Yes my tweeters aren’t probably as resolving but my bass is sooooooooo tight and the overall effect is very high end and balanced…
Greetings holminone ! Hope this evening finds you well.
An external gets you infinite bass and if that's what you're after, the external will certainly do it. If you think your backbox sounds good, you could stop there.
But, most feel the factory backbox is grainy and distorted and are sorely disappointed from the first flip. If you want clarity and definition, and a loud and crisp backbox you need PinWoofer. We're all about quality and you will hear a lot of new and surprising things on GNR. I can't imagine going back to stock.
OK, since we were mentioned. Have a great evening and thanks for your attention!
Quoted from wcbrandes:Using your ultimate kit that allows for external sub attachment as well and drop one of these bad boys underneath the game. You will never go back ! Lol
[quoted image]
Over the top wcbrandes - that thing looks like it can walk!
Quoted from holminone:PinWoofer do I order GT amplifier or basic one and use my pinnovators wire tap to keep my external sub??? Concerned a bit about the “auto muting” function of the GT amp. Hate to see it cutout subtle sounds that it shouldn’t.
The GT works great on GNR and there are scores of them out there. However, for what you are doing I'd recommend the KO Amplifier which has the same power rating but removes the preamp features including the auto-mute. Continue to use your existing external tap and save the $45 compared to the GT. Your sound will be epic. Below is the kit you'll want:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
Give a shout or PM if you want to talk - happy to help out!
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
Quoted from HornerSyndrome:Thanks. Last question- I hope. Did your four screws protrude this far under the cabinet? I don’t see how they wouldn’t once you remove the wooden block and replace it with the thinner mounting bracket. PS - I will pull out that grate that is in the picture now if I am able without ripping out the metal inserts. [quoted image]
Hey HornerSyndrome - I just replied to your email. There are four #8-32 ¾” screws included in the cabinet speaker pack that should be used as the new screws. They are shorter and will not stick out the bottom of the cabinet. Please email or call if you need additional assistance. Thanks
Quoted from Vyzer2:Dan has already helped me. As usual he is always on top of questions.
Thanks Dan!
For anyone else watching his video for install, he uses a different board now and the connector is on the underside.
Yep, valid point. The 2-pin header is on the underside of the board. We'll do our best to get the video updated in the future. Thanks for your patience, relax and enjoy! Dan
Our GNR had a skill shot issue the moment we powered it up with no modification, and in our case we were able to see it in the switch matrix. Re-seating all connectors fixed the issue, and it has not returned. We've been watching the comments over time (seeing a few different problems associated with the skill shot system) and this appears to be a general quality / reliability issue completely unrelated to PinWoofer or any other mod such as an external sub. There are many sources of vibration on the playfield such as the slings and jet bumpers, etc. that might be in play.
Quoted from shovelhed:Vespula did you email or call Dan at Pinwoofer? He would be the expert. Please let us know what you find out.
Quoted from holminone:I’ve got mine dialed. I also run an external sub. But my settings are as follows
Quoted from Vespula:Thought about it but while I'd value his opinion, I don't think there is any issue with the product
Great discussion! Give a shout if needed.
Quoted from Vespula:Recently my GnR on and off pop sound through the speakers is incredibly loud. I'm also noticing some audio static during certain soft quieter parts of the game and songs... Even in attract mode. It's not steady. It is there sometimes and then disappears.
The game used to be super quiet, no hiss or crackle and the on and off thud was very quiet. Now it is as loud as the knocker on a free game match.
Any thoughts or anyone else experience this?
I have been messing with my PinWoofer settings but they are pretty much back within normal range of where they have always been, if not lower.
I've dropped down to playing at 18 on the pin and adjusting pinwoofer levels to blend around that volume to try and fix it where before I was always on 26 normal loud and 30 if I wanted to rock.
It's not fixing it and something has changed. That coupled with the fact I'm struggling to get a good balanced sound settings from my pinwoofer makes me wonder what is going on.
Do I have a pinwoofer issue? If it were grounding issue wouldn't it be consistent hum or hiss?
Is the game pop supposed to be suppressed by the pinwoofer mute?
Getting a little frustrated with the gremlins in my sound that weren't there before.... Any help or thoughts are appreciated.
Hey Vespula - I held off assisting you on the forum before because I thought that's what you were asking for - community feedback.
But, at this point PM sent - let's have a quick call. I'm certain there are some things we can address.
The juke box recording mastery is grainy and quiet compared to the in-game music so you should not base your settings on the juke box mode. I've noticed this, and we have received a lot of feedback in this regard, so it is what it is.
Anther anomaly example you may be hearing is the superimposed "vinyl-like" playback crackle from Cool Hand Luke, in Civil War during the intro monologue, where the pinball track has crackle added. It is not present in the GNR song, and it is not present in the movie, but it is present on the pin. Below is the movie for reference - what you hear on this track has nothing to do with your PinWoofer system and everything to do with the source audio:
Just realize that while the game has amazing audio for the most part, but there are some track issues and there is nothing you can do about some of this so I would not target your settings activities on these specific tracks and passages.
You may have something going on that despite your adjustment efforts, only I can help you with. We can also work on the rest, please give me a call. 208-855-0346
Quoted from Vespula:...Just ordered one from polkaudio.com for $149 shipped. Do I need anything special to jack it in to my PinWoofer GT ? It's has line level output according to the website . Looks like from pictures it's maybe 1/8 inch output to stereo RCA cable needed.
You can simply cable to it (3.5mm TRS to Male RCA), or add the BBU (Bass Boost Unit). Here is what I said about the BBU in a different thread:
https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/the-official-rush-owners-club-1/page/54#post-6825035
Guys continue to re-order them so there is something to the BBU, but I'll leave it to those fanatics to comment about it.
Good times!
Quoted from barroncaliber:HOLY FREAKING SH!7 !!! everything is so clean and it gets FREAKING LOUD . i'm calling in sick tomorrow !!!
Hey barroncaliber ! Seems you drank the cool-aid and it really makes our day to see the excitement. Have fun with it!
Here is the kit for Guns N' Roses:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
Easy to install, and tech support provided (but rarely needed)!
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
KO (resized).pngQuoted from Maurice:I choose the 850W Seasonic because I plan to add pinstadium and pinwoofer.
With the original 450W the game sometimes crashed. A song wouldn’t start for example or just during gameplay the game rebooted. After reading on Pinside about these issues I decided to go for maximum reliability.
The pinwoofer and pinstadium are not installed yet. I did add extra LED backbox lighting.
Also added is an active 300W subwoofer, but I don’t think that makes any difference for the power supply.
In short: sofar I played a handful of games and the game works exactly as before. No crashes sofar. I’ll update once a few 100 more games are played.
Please note that PinWoofer is powered from the driver board, and not the ATX supply. Thanks, and have a great day!
Quoted from pinballjah:Thanks, for the Pinwoofer kit, does he sell a kit to connect an external subwoofer to a JJP pin only?
Greetings, we don't directly service this per-se. However, you can check if your sound card has the green mini jack populated like in the photo. (The original intent for this jack was to supply a signal to the CE sound bar, but some of the LE / SE do have this jack populated. Can't say how many.) If you have that jack, you can likely just get a cable for your external sub. Looking at the schematic it appears there's a 6dB boost to it too, which is a plus. You might be tempted to "split" the audio cable from the motherboard, but I (and others) have not been able to make this work because it attenuates the signal to the factory amp.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw this out in case you wanted to look at it. All of our amplifiers have a pro level output that give a strong signal to an external device, not to mention our backbox and cabinet sound epic on GNR.
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
JJP Extra Jack (resized).jpgGreat audio discussion!
With our new high sensitivity woofer you may likely find that an external is not needed on GNR. The bass response is quite remarkable. But, our amplifier has a line output for subwoofer support, and you can check out with a discounted line trimmer and cabling to enable your external later on if you think that's the route you'll take.
GNR is far and away our best seller and arguably one of the best sounding PinWoofer titles - you have to hear it to believe it.
So, let's have a Flash Sale:
-JJP Super Kits 20% off
-Coupon Code "PW_AUG_2020_JJP"
-Limited number available with discount (if the code don't work, its over)
-Offer valid until Midnight 8/15/22 or when the coupon limit is reached, which ever happens first
-Web orders only, applies to domestic or international orders
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
The single, best thing you can do for your JJP title!
PinWoofer PW-JJP-SPK super kit (resized).jpgPinwoofer logo (resized).pngQuoted from thekaiser82:When did that new woofer become standard? I think mine shipped with the older style.
Greetings thekaiser82 ! We recently released the new driver and added it into the website kits on Friday. You can upgrade your woofer only and continue to utilize the mounting ring included with your kit. Simply just select the modifiers shown in the image below (since you already have a PinWoofer system installed).
The driver you have now is of excellent quality but is less sensitive and you will hear an improvement on GNR with the new woofer. For guys that are running an external sub the benefit will be less / not noticeable so I would only recommend upgrading if you are self-contained.
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-Stern-or-JJP-8in-dvc-cabinet-speaker/
Our sincere thanks for your patience as we strive to do the best thing for our valued customers!!!
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
JJP Cab Speaker Modifiers (resized).jpgQuoted from Shmilder:PinWoofer any better shipping rates than $122 to Australia
Greetings Shmilder ! The kit is about 5Kg/10lbs so that quote is the best we can do. However, we will upgrade you to UPS Worldwide Expedited free of charge (we do not ship USPS outside of US and Canada). So, you'll take delivery in Australia within about 7-10 calendar days based upon recent experience.
Thanks for asking and best wishes!
Quoted from BC_Gambit:I have two pinwoofer systems installed (Dialed In and PoTC), and honestly the sound on my GNR is pretty good IMO! I sincerely hope to be blown away, but I fear this has been hyped to much that I will be mildly disappointed. Just posting this mainly so I can post my thoughts later and eat some crow . Looking forward to seeing what I have been missing in hundreds of games so far.
Quoted from thekaiser82:Make sure to season the crow well…
You'll never want chicken again!
Quoted from iamabearsfan:I will try this after lunch today. Thanks for the ideas. I have checked connections, but bypassing the entire pinwoofer system seems like a good first step to isolate where the issue really is. I have never felt the Pinwoofer system has been solid either. I know it can produce better sound. This is my fault though. I had emailed Dan Dean and he was ready and willing to work with me. Then life got in the way (this requires multiple beers to explain), so maybe the unit has some challenges and that is the root cause. I will report back though. As always, I love this forum and the people willing to help!
Please send me a PM with your number and I can give you a call. I'm sure it is something simple. I'm traveling today and home tomorrow in case I'm a bit slow to respond.
Thanks,
Dan
208-855-0346
Quoted from screaminr:Just spent tonight installing pin woofer GT amplifier , going step-by-step from YouTube video of Hurry Up Pinball .
I've been putting it off for almost a year but I have people coming over tomorrow for the grand final and thought now is the time .
I didn't change over the tweeters or the subwoofer .
I couldn't find the nuts and washers for the subwoofer , I'm not saying I didn't get them but I looked through all the boxes and looked everywhere and couldn't find them and I also couldn't find the double.sided.tape.for the board that goes in the back box , but I had some double-sided tape so that wasn't an issue .
So I got it all done , and following the video , I set all the dials to 12 position and the gain to the 2-3 position .
It sounded horrible . But I thought it just needs adjusting , so I spent about an hour fucken around with all the settings and it was just awful , really staticky , tinny & scratchie .
I double checked all the connections were correctly positioned and pushed in fimly and it was grounded properly .
But no luck , it was totally unplayable .
I haven't pulled it all out , but I disconnected everything and put it back to way it was . Now the sound is good again .
Half reason I got it was because I thought the GT amplifier had a line out for an external subwoofer . So how do you connect it ?
On the Hobbit you could just plug in the subwoofer and it was brilliant .
Not sure what I will do now , if I swap over the speakers and connect an external sub or just do the sub .
I'm not saying pin woofer make a crap product , lots of people recommended it , so either something is wrong with my amp or more likely I've done something wrong , I just don't know what .
Looks like 500 bucks down the drain but hey that's Pinball [quoted image]
Oh no screaminr !
If your new speakers and electronics are connected and working, you are almost certainly needing only to make adjustments.
Please refer back to your welcome email (I've pasted an example of that email below). I'll reach out to you via PM, and you can contact me any time.
Guys, make sure you reach out to me as your first line of support - we've sold scores of kits into GNR with overwhelming success. If something does not sound right, it is likely you need to make some vital adjustments.
#############################
Our sincere thanks for choosing PinWoofer - we really appreciate it!
Please read carefully.
Accessories purchased generally have instructions on the website with the shop listing, so please refer to the accessory at PinWoofer.com to locate instructions for any accessories (Line Trimmer, BBU, Cables, etc.).
The installation instructions for your system can be found by logging into PinWoofer.com and selecting the "Downloads" section in the main menu. (If necessary, you can create an account by selecting "REGISTER" in the upper right-hand corner and completing the form.)
There's an instructional video on the website that you might find helpful along with a video on amplifier adjustments. Please do not use the video as a complete replacement for the instructions; there are critical notes in the instructions that are not covered in the video:
Recommended amplifier adjustments can be viewed here:
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-pinball-guns-n-roses-amplifier-settings/
We have a genuine interest in learning about your experience so feel free to complete the product rating from PinWoofer.com or send us an email or drop us a line!
If you need assistance, please email or call.
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MST, Mon - Fri
#############################
Quoted from Vespula:First, all dials at 12 is def wrong. There are recommendations on PW website and around here but you need to play with it for your room too.
The adjustments are very sensitive. the different between 12 and 12:30 oclock, for example are very noticeable.
I just looked at my settings:
the treble is 2oclock
the BBox vol was about max, but maybe a hair back from max,
the bass vol was max, and
bass freq was about 1 oclock as I have a polk sub (which is using a 1/8inch to Stereo RCA output plugged into the 1/8 female output on the GT.
Gain at 2oclock.
vol at 12oclock. ymmv.
Oh, and the machine volume... thats a big one... normal play on my game Master Volume is 15, if I feel like rocking a bit more, which is most times is 16 and then as my ears go deaf I might bump it to 17 which is as much as I can handle.
And the settings in your game are equally important. You can see this From
https://pinwoofer.com/blog/pinwoofer-jersey-jack-pinball-guns-n-roses-amplifier-settings/
GT Amplifier:
System Menu
Music Mix 60
Speech Mix 75 (default)
Fanfare Mix 60
FX Mix 75 (default)
Which is what mine is at.
I additionally increased my VOLUME EFFECT INTENSITY (default is 1) which kicks up the Song volume more when it starts. I went to 2 so when a song starts, it gets noticeably louder which I think is helpful to rock out properly on this pin when song starts.
WOW, great summary - nice of you to jump in Vespula !
Having the Bbox Vol at max seems a bit high to me unless you are running an external sub.
Quoted from BC_Gambit:Pinwoofer Review:
I ended up ordering pinwoofer around 2 months ago, then installed it. But that was around the same weekend that the audio equalizer was added to the beta code.
Install went well, the new pinwoofer product was a noticeably better install than the older versions I had ordered ~2 years ago. Not that the prior versions were bad, just the improvements to the product were noticeable and appreciated!
The only quirk I ran into was when I unplugged the game audio board's power (I can't remember the specific name) the game would not boot. I think that was a recommended step as that board was no longer needing to be powered, as the audio power was now coming from the pinwoofer unit. All I know is when I unplugged that board, the game would not fully boot (it got stuck in some sort of boot loop). When I plugged the audio board it back in, things were okay. It could have been some other power part was jostled and it got jostled back when I "fixed" this. Could have just been coincidental. I did not try unplugging the stock audio board again to replicate the issue (at the time, I was just happy to get things working!). Now, I have the curiousity . Mentioning this on the off chance somebody else runs into this.
My initial take was great, this is working, time to tune it! I opted not to remove the stock speaker grill as I thought, the rattling would not be noticeable with the sound level I was intending to use it at. But in tuning, some lower frequencies were super obnoxious (something was rattling, and not in a good way).
So, I decided to remove the cabinet speaker grill- no appreciable change unfortunately. I then tried to see what else could be rattling. Cable bundles in the cabinet? Backglass? Coin door? I added some foam I had in the backglass and coin door to stop them from vibrating, and things improved a small amount.
BUT the main culprit ended up being the plastic channel that holds the top of the playfield glass. I ended up using some drop target foam I had on the top of the playfield glass (you can't see it when the glass is installed) and after adding enough pieces (4-5 or so across the top back of the playfield glass) I finally tamed the Rattle Beast.
So now I can just enjoy badass sound. I still need to probably do a bit of tweaking, but it sounds "right" to me now that low frequencies are not making things sound like the game is about to explode.
So is the pinwoofer awesome? Sure! I feel I spend a lot more time tracking down what was causing vibrations than I expected (I did not have to do that with my prior pinwoofer installs). Could be luck of the draw on the playfield glass back channel I have, different sound mixes (less bass maybe) on my prior JJP games, just my personal preferences when setting up the pinwoofer.
Posting this mainly in case you take the plunge, do the install, and then feel you have to dial it back due to some crazy audio related vibrations... if you work at it you can probably figure it out (before doing that make sure you don't have the bass set to absurd levels... but if things seem reasonable and you are getting a crazy rattle, hopefully this information helps).
Greetings BC_Gambit !
I'm 100% certain that the boot event you experienced is unrelated. (There is no digital communication between the factory sound board and the CPU.)
Enjoy, and our sincere thanks!
Quoted from fooflighter:Gamechanger Audio EQ Enhancement
So I'm running Beta 32 code now. Haven't had any errors since 31.
I just tweaked the EQ and man, what a night and day difference. This is AFTER already having Pinwoofer (including all new speakers) and an external Klipsch 12" sub
These are tweaked to my ears of course and no science behind it, just a typical dropped mids Rock EQ
The vid audio doesn't do it justice.
I included shots of my amp EQ settings and my line out trimmer to my sub (which is set to 80hz crossover)
Enjoy!
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Your setup is over the top fooflighter - it's fun seeing where things can go!
Best wishes for a happy and prosperous new year everyone!
Thanks,
Dan
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MT, Mon - Fri
New Years 2022 (resized).jpgQuoted from Ponzie:...anyone with a Pin woofer system have to adjust the dials to avoid some clipping/audio drop out. Nothing major, just something I noticed after installing the Beta.
Hey Ponzie ! If you have the PinWoofer GT amplifier (which in your case, you do) you can perform an expander board delete which helps to reduce / eliminate source clipping:
https://pinwoofer.com/content/PW-GT-JJP-Expander-Board-Delete-Instructions.pdf
(The KO and KOP sets do not employ an expander board as an FYI.)
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MT, Mon - Fri
Quoted from Vespula:I deleted mine but I can't get my GT to not clip/cut out on lower volumes.. forces me to play loud.
Played with gain, volume, and multiple combinations of pin volume and gt volume and gain... Can't find a combination that works.
Hey Vespula . Clipping is a bit different than auto mute in this context. Here is my advice. AFTER DELETE: run the gain at 4-6 o'clock, run the title volume in the 30-50 range, and if 30 is too loud for quiet play, you can reduce the Vol control on the amp. Scores of guys have, and I'm certain you will get there too! Bam.
Quoted from jarozi:Need some advice on a technical issue I've had since early days of owning my GnR LE, ordered on launch day, #900 something so fairly early in the run.
The sound output is inconsistent, it sometimes (rarely) just sounds fine. More often it sounds like the volume is way down or even tinny, then playing the game a bit or leaving it alone it will go back to normal. Then sometimes the music gets quiet and the voices also get quiet but not quite to the same level.
This started around the time I installed a PinWoofer, I've checked all connections in that chain and they seem solid. I contacted them for support and he attributed it to the games output from the mobo, but it was fine prior. I've messed with the gain which doesn't seem to change things.
Anyone experience this sort of issue? Running latest beta software. Thanks!
Give me a call at 208-855-0346 thanks
Quoted from fooflighter:Here's my latest EQ with Pinwoofer GT and External Klipsch 12" Sub (way overkill but sooooo good on this pin), also the Cab andBackbox speakers were PW upgraded
This is a scooped mids EQ but not enough to totally kill the mid levels, especially with the Treble on the external amp turned up, it's a nice balance with the weird downward firing speaker placement JJP chose to implement
That is Treble all the way up not off on the PW amp
I have the external sub at 80HZ crossover and tuned to my room for gain / punch as well as line trimmed off the PW GT amp
[quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
Awesome setup and advice, fooflighter !
JJP Super Kit (resized).jpgQuoted from kermit24:Guys it’s been a while! What do PinWoofer owners do with the new EQ in the 2.0 code menu? It sounds horrible.
Please setup a time with me when you'll be in front of your machine, and we'll assess what's going on. There is likely a simple menu toggle.
Thanks,
Dan
https://PinWoofer.com
[email protected]
+1 208-855-0346, 9am - 5pm MT, Mon - Fri
Quoted from Sako-TRG:Any recommendations for the Pinwoofer since the addition of the graphic equaliser?
Bass is vibrating and sound is kinda distorted.
Hey Sako-TRG . If you've got the graphic EQ bass sliders up above zero, it is possible that you are presenting a "hot" signal to the input of the amplifier which can lead to clipping. That's the first thing to check.
Get in touch if the above does not break you lose.
Thanks!
Dan
+1 208-855-0346
[email protected]
PinWoofer.com
Quoted from holminone:I just updated to latest code two days ago. And the “flat” has definitely been retuned to deliver more bass to the woofer. It really messed with my pin woofer and external sub config that was money. But don’t fear. I went into the EQ and shifted down some of the bass frequencies 1-3 notches from flat, then retuned my external subs volume and frequency to blend. Play with those game eq and of course your pinwoofer knobs and you should be golden.
Hey holminone ! This is consistent with the hot signal theory; seems the code is attempting to bias the source towards more bass since the original implementation was anemic. I REALLY appreciate you posting these findings buddy!
Quoted from Betelgeuse:Question for the pinwoofer advocates: I am not an audiophile. Why not just install your own amp and upgraded speakers for much less $? JJPs have the audio on a regular line-out from the pc in the backbox, so it's easy to tap into. Is it just the convenience of having everything in one neat package?
Quoted from fooflighter:You could, but Dan (PW) does all the legwork and combines it all into a great product including harnesses, power boards, bass trim modules, external sub outs, and noise filters as well as excellent personal support. I get his DIY kit for all of my pins (I have the full GT and speakers / cab kit on GnR) and find the components to be of high quality. He has made refinements to the power taps recently and his current board revisions take the audio to the next level. So what you may save in $ buying some cheaper amp and pairing it with DIY parts, you save in knowing you have a great quality product, harnesses, support and overall best in class sound. He had a DIY vs PW $ breakdown somewhere on Pinside and you may pay slightly more, but if you're not an audiophile, he's saved the hassle of the inevitable issues that come with DIY (hiss, interference, power adaptation, speaker ohm, balance, line trimming the list goes on) and turned it into a 30 minute install. I t's not even a question anymore...NIB pin = (at the least bare minimum)...Pinmonk Fans, Titan rubber, Pinwoofer kit, Shaker if not LE
Quoted from iamabearsfan:I would echo this post. This kit has been thought through from the ground up. There is value to that IMHO.
Hey guys - hope everyone is having a stellar day!
I'll again mention that we've taken some important design approaches and baked them into our amplifier and electronics. (Secret sauce; biasing methods, layout / topology customizations and more.) Our objective all along has been to create a pinball amp, that is not just "an amp".
Next, you can strike out on your own and try to improve things but unless you possess a technical understanding of what's needed, we're confident our setup is going to be difficult / impossible to match. Below is the link to our JJP offering:
https://pinwoofer.com/pinwoofer-jjp-super-kit/
GNR has a huge array of things going on in the audio. You'll hear new sounds in greater detail, and experience stereophonic separation and presence the factory setup fails to deliver. After you put it in, you'll know it.
OK, since we were mentioned. Good times!
Thanks,
Dan
+1 208-855-0346
[email protected]
PinWoofer.com
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