There were 100,000 people at the Bucks district for game six and less than 1000 confirmed cases resulted. I think the runners at the marathon will be fine.

There is a dangerous narrative happening in America where people are actively celebrating people dying from covid. We are becoming more divided because we have to be correct and if you disagree then you're a moron. It's apparent in this thread.

Here's my question again, how does this end? If covid never goes away, and the vaccine is required to work, then do we just keep taking booster shots forever?

Observation: When the talk moves to the current labor shortage and its causes, almost any article will talk about all of the people who retired as a reason for the labor shortage. 700,000 people in the country dying might be a little bit reason for a labor shortage but seems to get ignored in the shuffle.

https://www.kake.com/story/44881726/local-governments-struggle-to-hire-public-sector-workers

"The pandemic has made the situation worse because the competitive labor market has made it hard to replace older employees who decided to retire. And private companies, which are also struggling to hire, have more flexibility in pay and benefits that city governments generally do."

I’m sick and tired of this lie that the vaccinated need to be protected from the unvaccinated. The vaccination protects people from the unvaccinated. There is absolutely no reason for the vaccinated to live in fear, unless that individual has some underlying medical conditions.

Note: these are NJ numbers only in the photo.

2nd note: No mask mandate or vaccines passport in the state.

F6F654A5-7240-4BD3-ADBC-0D7786D5BD58 (resized).jpeg

Exposure is bad for everyone.

Unvaccinated people shed more viral proteins when infected.

Is it more complicated than this?

The most common source for vaccinated people getting infected with Covid, getting hospitalized with Covid, and dying with Covid is the unvaccinated. Why do you continue to ignore the data and the science? Vaccination provides a good level of protection from unvaccinated people infecting us, I know you agree with that, but it certainly doesn't fully protect us from them infecting us. Unvaccinated people are increasingly responsible for most of the deaths and hospitalizations due to Covid in America, they are causing our country and people great harm.

Where are the news reports of me setting a GC on my pinball last night?

No reporting of anything does not prove it didn't happen.

If you can't even be bothered to read a polite counter-argument or discussion can you really expect anyone else to read what you have to say?

Nowhere in PinballNewb 's post you are replying to do they mention home schooling.
Exactly the same argument as this:
But adding arsenic to your breakfast is a really stupid thing to do. If that's what you think is best for children, then I feel really bad for you.

Not fear based or a lie but based on scientific data. Vaccines are not 100% effective - think breakthrough cases. Masks work. Passports a good idea than carrying around an important document. Like I've stated before - its temporary.

"Probably" is the operative word. The 1000 confirmed cases that was stated are "probably" going to be fine and recover right?

I don't think anyone **here on Pinside** really is rejoicing in someone getting sick and dying. Put yourself in others shoes for a second or two though. The anti-mask, anti-science, anti-vax and anti-facts movement in America is MORE dangerous as its killed people. Time and time again - when we see people continue to fight all the way to their death beds its not celebrating but a cautionary tail. A lot of these people that have died don't die quickly and there are consequences.

They deteriorate, languish, suffer and endure enormous amounts of pain.

Then they leave their families with gigantic medical bills they likely can’t afford.

Then the heartache, gloom and desolation for the family and friends.

A medical doctor and fellow Pinsider has been here posting his experiences/knowledge since the beginning but some still don't want to listen. Its not celebrating but it may come across as a little cynical at this point.

Goal in the beginning was doing what we could to prevent it from becoming endemic. We did not do that. We are still not doing that. In fact, there is a vocal minority whose behavior has been distinctively pro virus.

My fear is the ship has sailed on preventing an endemic disease. Maybe it was never possible, but the consequences of becoming endemic are significant and should not have been simply embraced.

I have no doubt in my mind that the individuals actively resisting measures taken to try and control this pandemic will continue to be the same that will resist the consequences when the primary control measures fail.

That being said, at this point I would accept getting to the point where the medical system isn’t constantly on the brink of collapse. How long do we need to keep getting shots for that to happen? I do not know for certain, but I hope 3 shots will get us there. Only works if people actually get shots though. Probably would have been okay with just 1 or 2 if we had had much higher uptake, but here we are.

Alternatively (in parallel?) we can start building out our medical facilities (and staff!). Not a bad idea to do that anyway. Given the scale and costs…that will need to be a government effort though, which will probably trigger those same recalcitrant individuals.

Many areas are rationing care. Many others are not too far off from that. I ask you, what is your suggestion for preventing that situation? Healthcare workers are burnt out. What is your suggestion for preventing further burnout and replacing those that just can’t do this seemingly never ending hellish work anymore? Honest questions. I am deeply concerned about this aspect of the pandemic, (probably because I see it come home from work every day).

We got a bunch of bad options. I advocate for what I see as the least bad option.

Tl:dr we need to do what we need to do to prevent a collapse of our healthcare system. If that means a shot in the arm once a year so be it. Open to alternatives.

Did you even bother looking at the picture I posted?????

0.55% of the vaccinated in NJ has caught covid. With the vaccine, I have a 99.45% chance of not getting covid.

0.01% of the vaccinated in NJ has been hospitalized with covid. With the vaccine, I have a 99.99% chance of not going to the hospital with covid.

0.003% of the vaccinated in NJ has died with covid. With the vaccine, I have a 99.997% chance of not dying with covid.

What kind of full protection are you looking for......There's no vaccine that is 100%.

Go to reddit and there are a websites dedicated to making fun of "anti vaxxers" dying.

I'll agree with you here. There is a war for your mind going on. We shouldn't blindly trust anyone. Not the media, not scientist, especially not YouTube videos, or politicians. Not without asking one question: where is the money coming from?

Ever stop to wonder, who's making money off of us?

I was going to comment about the deaths but at this point it is what it is. It sucks to see others suffer.

I find the comments about "how the healthcare system" should bankrupt someone who isn't vaccinated laughable. Lol. Ever had emergency surgery? When the first $30,000 bill shows up, you'll understand how fucked our health care system is.

Lots of people care about what others are doing. I say get the shot or don't. Wear a mask, avoid people, or don't. Maybe you die or maybe you recover quickly. I'll keep living life and avoid your sweaty, stinky asses. Lol

I wonder how long the health care workers can continue at the same pace as the last 18 months. I read where some are leaving the profession. I also read that hospitals are hiring the traveling nurses to fill the gap and the travelers are making $200.00 per hour. I also read that some left the profession to become travelers because the money is so good.

One close friend and one cousin just switched to traveling RN's. I can confirm this.

Reports if you are setting a GC….

Please, just try growing up. San Francisco marathon is a major race.

Hmmmmmm…..this made USA Today.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/4148818002

A 5K made national news….

He did say "Anyone Here". Yes there are places where people are making fun of the deaths of the Anti-Vaxxers. Look no farther than Twitter. But, you have to admit, a lot of those Anti-Vaxxers set themselves up for those kind of posts.

12 year old and younger children interact with adults though?

Counting cases against the total amount vaccinated is incredibly misleading. At least 85% of the United States hasn't gotten COVID yet, but that doesn't mean everyone in the country only has a 15% chance of getting COVID.

Pretty certain a bunch are "leaving" the profession because they don't want the shot. Same with our supply chain. I'd suspect many early retirees may be avoiding a shot as well.

Just another piece of the puzzle I guess.

https://stateofthenation.co/?p=80094

There are a few things I can imagine quitting my job over. Being mistreated, or being asked to do something really unethical. But I can’t even imagine quitting over a vaccination. Like, I seriously can’t even get into that headspace. I even faced down a huge phobia to keep my job once (flew to Europe). I sincerely feel bad for these people, whether they’re afraid or just angry and misled.

Well, thanks for putting THAT site in my browser history.

What exactly is misleading??? The chart shows how incredibly effective the vaccine is at preventing the vaccinated from catching covid. How you come to any other conclusion is beyond mind boggling.

Sorry if this has been discussed, but I was curious if anyone has reported numbers of people contracting Covid at pinball shows. The York Show is coming up and the pinside thread says "no Covid talk", so I thought I would ask here. Does anyone know the numbers from past shows and how they get reported, if they get reported at all.

I love how he laid it all out perfectly and concisely for you, never called you names or said anything disparaging - just explained how you use straw man arguments with exact examples, and then you go on to a textbook deflection. Absolutely perfect, chef’s kiss!

Because you can’t refute it, you ignore and belittle it. Totally classic.

I know it’s a dream but I hope one day that such an explanatactually works and the person it’s directed at actually realizes what they’re doing and says so with an apology. But everyone knows that outcome is an impossibility, because that might mean the person was admitting to being wrong.

But we can all dream.

My girlfriend's aunt from Alabama was here as a travelling nurse for the last 4 months, she made a lot of cash and got to be not in Alabama.

At my work many people retired or moved on to new positions while we worked from home or at the prospect of having to work in person again after working from home for 15 months. A pandemic makes people rethink their life choices. We lost half our staff and just finished rehiring and training new people. Honestly, it was fantastic, all the problem people left and we hired a bunch of younger, brighter people and opportunities for promotion happened for people that stayed on and had been waiting for retirements to move up. I'm sure other places will experience similar short term pain if people retire or quit, but in the long term a wave of people leaving brings new energy, new opportunities, change and progress in most workplaces.

That’s false.

Our health system installed a vaccine mandate a few months ago. We have had less than 100 people leave the organization after the mandate enforcement date and most of them were non-clinical, front desk people and such. This narrative that lots of nurses and actual clinical people are leaving over the vaccine just isn’t true, at least not here in north Texas. The few that have left have been fairly vocal about it and right wing media outlets have sought them out and amplified them to push their own narrative.

The reality is the vast majority of people who actually take care of COVID patients have been vaccinated since January 2021.

Thanks for all of your posts Doc!

We have the J&J, and on local news while ago they said a booster for it should be ready in 3 weeks.

They said it turned out the J&J was 71% effective, and tests are showing with this booster it will take you to 99%.

I will be getting the J&J booster when available.

And in my entire life, I have only had one flu shot and that was about 30 years ago, and it made me sick when I was fine before I got it.

I still have no plans to take any flu shots, but I will keep taking the Covid shots.

I have never knew anyone that ended up in the hospital because of a flu.

But my girlfriend was in the hospital for 5 days because of Covid, and her brother was in the hospital for 3 months because of Covid, and he had to go to therapy to learn how to walk again after all of that, and he needs a lung transplant still.

And I know 3 people that have died from covid. (and I do not know too many people to begin with).

My girlfriend drives me nuts with having to go to the grocery store pretty much everyday for something.

I am trying to stay away from crowds, and I try to only go to a store 2-3 times a month.

(well yeah, I do go to a small store that is never crowded a lot more often than that to buy beer, but if beer stores were also crowded like grocery stores I would look into buying a tractor trailer load at a time, and have them park the trailer on my driveway).

I have a fully vaccinated aunt in ICU now, and she has been for weeks now, so you still have to be careful, and avoid crowds as much as you can.

I’ve done nothing but refute how crazy some people are on this thread.

When you take the position that it’s a good thing to wear a mask during a marathon…it’s an admission that all rational thought is lacking.

When you take the position that the San Francisco marathon will be a super spreader event, then it turns out it wasn’t, and then can’t admit to being wrong about it…it’s an admission that all rational thought is lacking.

When you take the position that Florida will keep exploding with covid unless they have a mask mandate, then end up being wrong again, then can’t admit to being wrong…it’s an admission that all rational thought is lacking.

When you take the position that we can control how the virus mutates……words can’t begin to describe how crazy that statement is….

When you take the position that covid and smallpox are similar……..just wow….that’s some anti-science crap right there….are more words even necessary to describe how loony of a statement that is…

I already put myself on record for my covid predictions for the unvaccinated in the northeast this winter. Because I’m a rational and decent human being, I also added that I hope I am wrong and my prediction doesn’t come true. BTW, when Florida was at its peak…I said it on here. God forbid someone is actually rational on this thread…heads just start exploding.

The people on here are so infallible that when they are proven 100% wrong, time and time again, they can’t admit it…you describe it as the exact opposite.

I don't think they get reported at all. Allentown show went on without any issue earlier this year, no mask mandate, some wore masks, some didn't.
I'm sure York will be the same.

Oh, I thought we were done. But seeing you are misstating my position and then saying I lack rational thought, I figured a response was needed.

This is a form of argument known as a straw man. The point you are attempting to set up is that people here think it is a good thing to wear a mask in a marathon. Quite clearly that isn’t the case, and here is someone refuting that…

Of course I also went into the reasons why, which there is no reason to rehash. Unless you keep setting up straw men that you can attack.

I’m not going to keep picking these disingenuous arguments apart. But you really should look at how you are stating these. You are saying that “people” were taking the position that the San Francisco marathon “WILL” be a super spreader event. That’s a lie. You follow that by attacking that lie. That IS a straw man argument. You set up the false position, and then you attack it.

I think that you believe what you are saying. However you have a habit of misstating what the other side is saying in order to get there. When it doesn’t work, you climb down the ladder and try the same thing under the other persons position. As an example, masks, down to the marathon, down to the charities, down to “where is your outrage”.

And yet again, we go back to where we started. The position you seem to hate. Simple respiratory virus. Vaccine. Masks. Social distance.

I, like you, cannot fathom a thought that someone would walk away from a well paying position for not wanting to get the Covid shot. When I was working, my job was not easy to obtain, paid well with great benefits, and would have been close to impossible for me to replace.

That said, I have PM conversations with another pinsider who says he is old enough to retire and will do so if required to get the vaccine. He works in some sort of health care capacity. We have not discussed his position in any kind of detail. I would like to know the reason for his attitude but we do not discuss Covid, at all.

So his 'religious beliefs' weren't really that strong when it came to the alternative, a loss of nearly $16million

Screenshot 2021-10-06 161555 (resized).png

https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/opinion-andrew-wiggins-covid-19-vaccine-1.6192770

I haven't seen anything reported either.

The first 2 shows held in the UK - Pinfest (over 400 attendees) and Critical hit (53 attendees).

I knew ALL of the people at Critical hit, and a large percentage at Pinfest - there was no outbreak following these comps reported.

There are huge differences between countries, and even regions, on the uptake of vaccines and the seriousness in which people take the Covid. Every single person I spoke to said that they had been taking lateral flow tests leading up to attending - a number when testing positive didn't attend and were fully refunded, not just for their show entry but comp fees along with hotel fees. The UK also has a very high percentage of people who are double vaccinated.

That does not mean that there won't be at whatever show you choose to attend. It only takes a single person to attend who is positive and not follow masking or social distancing guidelines and they can spread it to lots of people.

I'm choosing not to travel to European comps at the moment as I don't know what the situation 'on the ground' is over there as well as I do in the UK.
There's also the added hurdles (and associated costs) of testing and isolation.
A number of people I know are attending a major weekend of comps in Germany this weekend, so hopefully I'll get more information then.
Based not only on this thread, but what I know from my sister in NYC and other friends I won't be travelling to the US in the foreseeable future.

I'm not trying to oversell anything here, just trying to point out some of the issue is the mandate. I'm glad to hear North Texas hasn't really been effected.

Here are 500 nurses that were previously helping people, but now they're selfish I guess.

They were replaced, one would assume with vaccinated people, yet only 92% of this outfit is meeting the vax status... maybe they're still counting the nurses as on staff?

My apologies if ABC news is "right wing" propaganda.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/hundreds-hospital-staffers-fired-suspended-refusing-covid-19/story?id=80303408
"In New York City, about 500 nurses for NYC Health + Hospitals are not at work and have been preemptively replaced. Unvaccinated workers have been placed on unpaid leave but can return once they get their shot. A hospital spokesperson told ABC News that today over 92% of the NYC Health + Hospitals' workforce is in compliance with the state vaccine mandate as of Wednesday."

Also from your link:

“In North Carolina, the Novant Health hospital system, which has over 35,000 employees across 15 hospitals and over 800 clinics, fired around 175 of its workers for failing to get vaccinated, officials told ABC News.”

Workers in general not specifically nurses or doctors. Think janitors, receptionists, etc…

This is the norm for Minnesota, western Wisconsin, and (per PantherCityPins ) in North Texas. I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that this is the norm writ large across the country.

As mentioned previously my wife had a med assist leave because of the mandate only to have her new employer issue a mandate. As of last week she is vaccinated and back working with my wife! (Yay because that med assist is really good at her job). I would like to say it was the near universal mandate that caused her to get vaccinated, but it was actually watching her mother in law die after weeks in the icu and her nephew get hospitalized (he recovered) due to Covid.

So far around 5-10 employees have quit because of the mandate in my wife’s small portion of the much larger network. None have titles higher than med assist.

For comparison 50ish people have quit or retired in the past year. Completely unrelated to vaccination. Rumors are many more to come from burnout. Could all just be saber rattling, but we shall see. I suspect that after covid settles down you are going to see significantly more swapping of hats than usual in the medical community. (The grass is always greener right? It can’t be this bad everywhere right?)

Not to say that it doesn’t suck when staff get canned for defying vax policy (it does) but it isn’t the huge deal that it is being made out to be.

MUCH bigger staffing problems coming down the pike.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/06/us/texas-man-sentenced-covid-hoax/index.html

ha-ha-point.gif

Two interesting developments on my side of the world. First one was the anticipated email from my company's legal and management teams that due to the Biden mandate (and the fact that the US government is our #1 customer) they are going to mandate the vaccine going forward. It will be done via some app (to be named later). I'm kind of sad I picked today to work from home as I'm sure there have been some lively discussions on site.

Second thing I saw on social media a girl I went to high school with announced that her mom, dad, and oldest sister have all passed away within 2 weeks of each other. No cause of death given. I looked up obits, I only found them for 2 of the 3 individuals and also no cause of death given. So I politely and cautiously reached out privately and she did confirm cause of death was covid. I don't know if any were vaccinated or not, didn't want to go there in the midst of what is obviously an awful time for the family.

I mention that second one because it's the second recent death(s) I know about where covid was the cause, but there seemed to be a weird attempt to mask that reason in the official announcements. The other one was my church hosted a funeral recently for a well known person in the ministry (not ours, but we have a large building so we get asked to host a lot of community events that require indoor seating). That one was interesting because on their ministry facebook page they had been requesting "thought and prayers" for this guy for like 3 months because of the covid before he passed, while his official obit listed his cause of death as "passed after a brief illness". And yes, I was told he had been outspoken before he got sick in his resistance to getting the vaccine while all of his kids had gotten it already.

I understand families wanting to avoid public controversy but it also seems like in the religious circles that all 4 of these folks seem to swim it might have done a world of good to let everyone know why they are gone. So at least some good could come from the situations for the hesitant that are still around.

It doesn't matter if people fly a plane, tend patients, defend the country, play basketball, work in environmental services, or whatever. Some may talk a big game in regards to bucking the mandate, but when the mandate hits - most get a vaccine. I bet some were grateful for the nudge.

The 'waves of people quitting' is just run of the mill, tempest in a teapot, click bait fluff and wishful thinking by anti-vaxxers.

Interesting you chose to quote the one stat that seems like the most people instead of all the other stats that show a few hundred staff total leaving after a mandate. But I digress.

NYC Health+ Hospitals is the largest healthcare provider in the nation with an annual revenue of over $6 Billion. They employ over 42,000 people in the New York City area. So, 500 people amounts to 1.1% of their workforce. Obviously it would be a bit higher percentage of just nurses but that number isn’t available that I can find.

We found out today that less than 120 employees total left our organization around the time of the mandate. That’s out of over 23,000 total. That’s 0.52% of the total.

You know what I see as the main reason nurses are leaving healthcare? Burnout and getting tired of taking care of dying patients who could have avoided death had they simply gotten a vaccine instead of believing their Facebook feed. My personal opinion of a nurse who puts their own conspiracy theories or political beliefs above the safety and well being of their patients is this “Don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.” We are better off without them.

Here’s the thing. People who want to push an anti-vaccine agenda use stories like this to say “See? There are nurses who don’t want it either! They’re healthcare workers! They should know!” What they don’t realize is that while nurses are fantastic members of the healthcare team, they are generally not trained to read medical studies or understand the physiological processes that drive medical decisions. That’s what doctors do. So, what they should be asking is what percentage of doctors are fully vaccinated? The answer is over 96% based on a recent AMA survey.

Get vaccinated.

It's not mind boggling if you understand. It's like saying in February 2020 that 99.99% of the United States hasn't caught covid - how useful is that information? Nevermind that as near as I know, only hospitalized breakthrough cases are getting counted.

For it to be relevant, you would need to compare per capita likelihood of catching covid between both the vaccinated and unvaccinated over a given time period.

Hit me with some science. Which vaccine out there is 100% effective……

I’ll make it easy for you. None.

Every vaccine has breakthrough cases.

These vaccines are extraordinarily effective, based on the scientific data. Unless you have some other underlying conditions, there is no reason to live in fear.

If you’re living in fear after being vaccinated…then I suggest you never eat solid foods…scientifically speaking, you can choke to death. Don’t drive a car, scientifically speaking, you can die in a car crash. Don’t walk outside, scientifically speaking, something bad can happen. Don’t ride a roller coaster, scientifically speaking, you can call out and die.

This is great info, thank you! You pointed out exactly what I was thinking when I saw you were in the UK. You have a much higher vaccination rate and people take the situation far more seriously there, as they should. I could be wrong but I believe the UK does contact tracing as well which I'm guessing is much easier to do with a centralized health care system. Your last point about not traveling to the US in the foreseeable future really sticks. I saw Todd Tuckey went to Allentown without a mask and most others weren't either. I thought if Todd is still breathing, no offense to Todd, maybe I can get a few games of Godzilla in without catching or spreading it. But I feel like its more responsible to just wait until it ships.