When one signs up for a marathon, it isn't at the last minute. Trust me on this, the amount of training that goes into a marathon is quite extensive. I have a 22 mile run lined up for Saturday to get ready for NYC. In order to beat the warm weather, I start around 4am.

NYC Marathon runs every November. Signups begin in February. If I had to guess with this one, signups were probably around January. The masking was brought upon the runners at kind of the last minute.

I've been signed up with Disney's marathon since June. Back then, they had warned us that it will be a different experience (meaning, no character photos with people). Come race day, this isn't something I will be surprised about it.

Lastly, when you get big marathons, it isn't a local race. It's quite shocking the amount of people that will travel. My last Disney marathon, there were runners from Australia, Brazil and Japan. It's like a virtual United Nations...me personally, I think it's really cool/amazing. Makes it a world race. All the major ones are like that (Disney is only "major" for name recognition. None of the top runners run it).

Fun reply of the day. The United States is averaging 2000 deaths a day from Covid right now. And I can personally report that Covid is a shitty way to die.

I already looked back in your posts on this topic and realize you are not going to believe any numbers except your own. But you do realize most of those kids under 25 with the “deadly”respiratory virus were probably around people that were not under 25, right? You understand that in a pandemic the spreading of the virus is the issue, right?

fun facts of the day!!
1 in a million is death rate for people 25 and under with covid.
more people under 18 die from car accidents and lightning strikes than covid 19
Andrew Yang ran for President and wanted Universal basic income. If he became President, would covid exist? id it did still exist, would the government try to keep it a secret?

^^^^ Your post was deleted cnuts13 but ^^^^

1 in 500 people have died of Covid in the US. Is that a sobering enough of a stat?
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/15/health/us-coronavirus-wednesday/index.html
Judging by your previous posts here you're not going to get it anyway.

You finally lost me though after this statement "id it did still exist"

and even before this with your ***transphobic*** "Wachowski sisters" thread you started a year ago (which Trekkie1978 upvoted) --> https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/wachowski-sisters#postbox

How you still have an account here is ponderous.

Also they are using a completely false number. Try as I might, I cannot find a way to massage/misrepresent the numbers in any way that remotely approached this bogus number. I mean, in California alone (table provided below from California health dept website) there have been 35 kids under 17 that have died out of approx 628,000 cases. 1050+ more dead out of 1.4 million cases in the 18–34 age group.

So unless they think there are about half a billion extra kids in the USA out there and they ALL have already had covid…I don’t get it.

Also, I might add that death isn’t everything. There is potential for some disturbing long term brain and lung issues. Also potential link to mis-c.

If we are just making up numbers, I would like a few extra zeros added to the end of my top scores and my bank account too please (preferably before the .)

237B87E7-2F22-4CC0-8709-B9E0BDA09092 (resized).jpeg

I'm back to where I was several months ago. I had nothing to add and was sounding like a broken record.

Oaken advised to watch out for the Delta variant. And here we are.

But everyday now, I mean every day, I keep reading where someone else wishes they had gotten the vaccine. And then they died. A few have made the hump and got cured.

This is the last one of these " I wish I had got the vaccine" I will post.

" After 169 hospitals, a dad finally got the Covid-19 care he needed -- and changed dozens of skeptics' minds"

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/19/health/florida-man-inspires-covid-vaccinations/index.html

This guy lived, but jeez, at what cost? You can bet his insurance would not be picking up the tab.

The good thing is that this guy's near death experience galvanized many of his friends and family to get jabbed.

I'm happy to keep jogging in this circle with you as long as you need.

Of course, yes, running a marathon isn't something that someone does on the spur of the moment. You don't jump off a couch for the first time in years and run 26 miles. It takes a lot of time, training, and effort to run one. There isn't a single person here that would argue with that.

However, the answer will always come back to the deadly pandemic that we are in the middle of. I know it's difficult when things you plan and work for have to change. In the course of a pandemic, someone dropping out of a race really isn't that big a deal. Especially when you compare it to the people that have died.

I'm really glad that you are pro vaccine. And we agree that getting shots in shoulders is the only way we will ever get control of this pandemic. I would like you to elaborate on your mask policy though. Are you against wearing them in National Parks when you cannot socially distance? Is it the rules you are against? Or just the fact that it would suck to wear a mask in a marathon? I'm just asking you to clarify how you would handle the rules, the pandemic, and the marathon if you were running that show. Please account for Delta which can be caught even if vaccinated through that rather than quote outdated data from Alpha.

Does My Mask Protect Me if Nobody Else Is Wearing One?

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/21/well/live/covid-masks-protect.html

Interesting explanation of mask use and studies about efficacy of materials and usage. Nothing really new, but a nice overview with good links.

Good. Now onto the rest.

https://www.businessinsider.com/oregon-doctor-who-spread-covid-misinformation-gets-license-revoked-2021-9

Recent article of covid in kids.

https://undark.org/2021/09/21/covid-19-children-severe-illness/

Yes, covid isn’t remotely as bad for kids as it is for the elderly, but it is still non zero.

Delta is spiking cases in kids, and adverse outcomes are also rising. Is it simply due to more kids infected, or something else is tbd.

Also, this quote is related to previous discussion (data per cdc):

“… the total number of Covid infections in kids under 18 since the onset of the pandemic to 5.3 million, with at least 534 deaths.”

And this is just the 18 in under crowd. Worse outcomes for the 18-25 group. So best case numbers…and still 100X previous claim.

Also, around 1 in 10 to 1 in 20 get long covid. We don’t really know what the longer term effects, if any, of that will be.

This post is about the data (not the OP, or even the associated words), and the way it is presented, as there are many, many different examples of this. It just so happens that I saw this one when I had 10 minutes to address it.

As someone who studied stats at Uni, it absolutely winds me up when data is presented in ways that make it hard to get an instant 'feeling' of what's happening for the average person. Changing data ranges, different scales on different graphs but trying to compare them, vertical axis not starting from zero. All of which can (and are) used to manipulate the data to steer towards certain conclusions.
Screenshot 2021-09-22 143038 (resized).png
To that end I have taken the data from the table presented, and put it in to variable width bar charts. For those not familiar with these charts - it is the AREA, not the height which of the bars which represent the number quoted.
Cases (resized).pngDeaths (resized).png

Despite my best efforts, there simply isn't a linear scale which can represent both 10 & 25,552 accurately, so please allow me a little leeway in the scale.
I also made the assumption that the 80+ range was actually 80-99. Had I chosen the range to be 80-1,000 I myself could have manipulated the chart to make it look like something else was happening.

Now you anyone can draw their own conclusions from these 2 graphs, but at least they are now presented in a way that makes it easier to draw those conclusions - or challenge them if necessary.

Or can you draw meaningful conclusions?

Even the data used isn't great.
Where it says "no. of cases" is that the no. of cases ever recorded in that that age group or the no. of active cases on Sept 15th in that age group?
Likewise no. of deaths - is it total no. of deaths in that age range, or within a specific period.
If it's total deaths and active cases - the percentages are completely meaningless.

What do we conclude from the age being missing in 2,519 cases? Is it that the data collection was shoddy? What else has been missed, or misrepresented?

You can gain very little from a glance at a table, or graph unless you understand the way the data has been compiled, and how it is being presented. That's if you trust the data used in the first place.

The phrase 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.', attributed to many different people, depending on which source you believe, has never been more true.

If in the corrals, they required masks, IMO, that is perfectly acceptable. It can get tight in there, especially when walking to the start line...which I still can't figure out when people push and shove, because you don't get there any faster...but that's another topic all together.

Once you're at the start line, the mask should come off. I don't care if it's the park rules, they should have some common sense.

My last Marathon was Disney 2020. At race start (5:00am), it was 70 degrees and 95% humidity. By the time I finished, the humidity dropped to 92% and temperature was 85. During that race, I have never heard so many ambulances going at once before. They actually had to modify the course. One section went through Blizzard Beach (mostly the parking lot). When people were coming out of the parking lot, they were falling over. Thus, forcing Disney to modify the course. Then Disney went as far to notify the runners, that we wouldn't be swept off the course. They did everything they possibly could to keep us safe. I've never seen so many ice bags before too. They added water stations. Safety was their focus. The last water station barely had anything. Something I've never seen before.

Wearing a mask for a race is not safe. I physically couldn't do it. I wouldn't last those 7 miles. Marathons are not easy at all...that's why I started doing them. I want to challenge myself and do things I never dreamt of doing.

How cruel would that be? Put in months and months of eating clean, extra workouts, 5 hour training runs...only to be told a few days ahead to wear a mask.

Well said.

I think this is the exact spot I will have to agree to disagree with you. You seem to think that is intolerably cruel, and I don't think it is harsh enough, because there is a pandemic. You can't run in a meaningless race to challenge yourself? Tough, about 2000 people are dying every day in the US as they whine about the cruelty of their treatment during a pandemic. If you could ask the thousands of people who died this week if they could go back and change something, it would be to "Get the vaccine" or to "Not take the stupid risk that gave me Covid?". If/When someone dies of Covid after running in that race, what would they say? Would they say "did you see my time?" or would they say, "Damn, I did that in a pandemic?". Nah, everyone will say they must have caught it somewhere else.

TL;DR; = Get vaccinated, wear a mask, socially distance, still a pandemic.

I a guessing you have had to pay an entry fee for this race. If so, then there is money involved. And everybody(well, not everybody) is struggling with how to balance things out between safety for the patrons and the struggle to keep the doors open. I imagine your race promoters were sucking in their breath with the mask rules on Nat'l property, but they took the deal they could get and are probably praying like hell they will get a good turnout.

It is just a guess.

You will need to define common sense.

We throw "common sense" around like everybody fell of the same truck. Common sense is a learned behavior. You did not know you were going to burn your finger in the stove burner until you did it the first time. After the first time, you got the "common sense" that told you not to touch that burner. The only reason you have the common sense to not step in front of a moving car is because your parents yelled any you and perhaps even paddled your ass to learn to not to walk in front of that car.

So, define "common sense" please.

I understand your problem, since you think masks are useless. Well, I think running 26 miles just to get back to where you started is pretty useless too.

If you really want to run without a mask, why couldn't you do it somewhere else? I am sure there are lots of places you can run without anybody requiring you to wear a mask.

This was posted early on in the thread but it still applies today.

b9d1e61db27c21dec9f8892aec09cc364a6c00ec (resized).jpg

New Surgeon General for Florida, survey says…

Dr. Joseph Ladapo, founding member of that America's Frontline Doctors group that personally waxed poetic on hydroxychloroquine back then and is still pro hydroxy today (although he doesn’t mention it as much).

At his presser he talked about how Florida should prioritize eating more fruits and vegetables vs vaccines. Seriously.

Congrats Florida. At least your governor didn’t pick the demon sperm lady (another founding member).

It is more like is Dr. Atlas in the house?

https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/22/politics/florida-surgeon-general-joseph-ladapo/index.html

" Ladapo is also among a group of doctors who have supported controversial unproven and disproven Covid-19 therapies such as ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine."

Meaningless? That is rather cold. I've been training for NYC Marathon for months and am coming off a torn ligament in my hip to do it. I'm running with a fundraiser and have raised lots of money. I'm running on behalf of mom who died when I was young.

If you ask me...anyone who thinks a marathon is meaningless is just a meaningless person.

Marathon and meaningless are two words that don't belong in the same sentence. 0.5% of the world's population has run a marathon. That's an exclusive percentage I belong too.

Meaningless? Seriously?? Have you ever done anything hard in your life? I'm guessing that is a hard no.

As for NYC, they just sent an email today. The transportation to the start line, must wear a mask. Corrals? Mask. When near the start line, the mask comes off. They are doing mini-waves to help spread the people out. When in the finishing area, they are handing masks out for the runners to wear. They also cut the amount of runners from 52,000 down to 33,000.

Note: No race is meaningless. Even 5K's can mean the world to people who run/walk them.

On the sweep buses at Disney, they have tissues for the people who get swept. Many people cry when they failed at it...because it is meaningful.

My last marathon, at mile 24, I had runners asking me if I wanted a medic. I told them no, cause if a medic came up to me, they would've pulled me off the course. There was no way in hell I would let that happen.

Oh Boy, Now Florida is removing Quarantines on School children from being a school based decision.
It is now up to Parents, whether you child should or can go to school if sick.

I cant begin to share that not every adult in Florida is the sharpest tool in the shed.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.foxnews.com/us/whitmer-michigan-mask-mandates-schools-vaccine-passports.amp

Still being selective with the outrage.

Art lives in Florida, that might have something to do with it.

Maybe, just maybe, oldpinguy is being selective based on his state of residence?

For me, it’s a wee bit more head slapping to put a crank in charge as surgeon general than it is for a governor to compromise with the legislature to avoid a government shutdown. I mean, it’s not like the governor is actively for those idiotic measures.

Still don’t like it, but it’s a different level of hell.

Meaningless compared to death. Absolutely meaningless. Your priorities are screwed up if you think running a marathon is more important than the 8320 people that have died of coronavirus in America since you brought up masks in a marathon. You can add in today’s figures a bit later tonight (hint, about another 2000 people).

You obviously don’t know me. Your guess is very incorrect.

Sounds like a super spreader event.

Right. No one cares you’re a runner. I’m a scratch golfer because I was taught by my grandpa. No one cares I can shoot even par, just like no one cares you can run 26 miles. Mask up where needed or do 100 laps around the block instead.

Considering that there is a pandemic still underway, a crowded race doesn't sound very wise to me.

I'm sure everyone can live just fine without doing a race.

I don't doubt it.

I'll have to call a big BS on that statement. I care, admire and respect that Trekkie has the balls to attempt the marathon. It takes lots of work and commitment to do that and succeed. It is difficult enough to even FINISH a marathon when you hit the wall around mile 20 - 22. If you had to wear a mask through that, you'd probably see some deaths on the course. Like I said earlier, after you leave the corral and the racers get spaced apart, what's the need for a mask? To meet someone's "rules".
Ditching the masks after the start of the race, and then putting them on at the end; that should be completely sufficient and should be completely safe.

Unlike the funeral I went to today for my uncle (died of old age, not covid). I was just about the only person there wearing a mask.

https://slate.com/technology/2021/09/hermancainaward-subreddit-antivaxxer-deaths-cataloged.html

If a marathon is meaningless, then so are the following things:

Sports
Restaurants
Movies
Shooting range
Libraries
Weddings
Any stores that isn’t a grocery store
Pinball companies
All public transportation
Schools
Parks
Beaches
Gyms
Concerts
Plays
Companies like Pepsi and coke
Theme parks
Resorts
Museums
Funerals
Parties
Church (all religions)

If you’re gonna come down on a marathon cause it can spread the disease, then be consistent. Everything else should be shut down too, cause it can spread the disease.

I have a legitimate question and since there appears to be a pile of Physicians, Epidemiologists, Biochemists and other experts in this thread, I thought it would be a great place to pose the question.

The FDA says that an antibody test isn't a valid way to determine protection against COVID. If that's the case, then how are we gauging the effectiveness of the vaccine other than handing it out and then watching to see what happens?

It just looks like a "Hey, take this and let me know what happens" kind of thing.

https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/safety-communications/antibody-testing-not-currently-recommended-assess-immunity-after-covid-19-vaccination-fda-safety

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) is reminding the public and health care providers that results from currently authorized SARS-CoV-2 antibody tests should not be used to evaluate a person’s level of immunity or protection from COVID-19 at any time, and especially after the person received a COVID-19 vaccination.

I don’t disagree about your take on needing (or not needing a mask). Rather, the “someone’s rules” in this case isn’t just someone, but the event organizer. Follow their rules (right or wrong) or don’t participate.

Sorry to hear about your uncle. My mom passed last month and it made me think more of the conundrum of funerals during these times. Small small space, a ton of people congregating hugging it out, blowing noses etc, and not many masks. But in that situation what else are you gonna do…

Can you guys start another thread for cross fitters, vegans, and marathon runners?

FTR, I’m more impressed by the scratch golfer than the marathon runner and I don’t even like golf. I know oodles of people who’ve run a marathon but only single digit scratch golfers.

The people running the marathon are to be praised as they figured out a way to hold the marathon on schedule, and partially through a scenic National Park, by following the National Park rules. I’m sure they thought about obtaining a waiver from the park system but it wasn’t feasible. The mask rules they put in place in areas where they had control are reasonable.

The initial studies on the vaccines had outcomes data. They followed vaccinated people for a certain amount of time and found that they were 90-95% less likely to develop severe COVID vs the people who got a placebo shot.

Not only that we have newer studies that show around 85% reduction in hospitalization and 91% reduction in ICU admission for vaccinated vs unvaccinated when they have COVID.

Lastly, there was an article a couple days ago comparing the 10 most vaccinated states vs the 10 least vaccinated states over a recent week. As I recall it showed around 3-4 times more people died from COVID in the least vaccinated states during that week. It’s a small sample size but it’s more of a real time snapshot vs delta variant.

There’s a ton a data that shows vaccines work.

Because if natural immunity is as good or better than vaccines which it probably is, they would be giving people too much control to make their own decisions instead of letting them tell you what to do.

I don't even like driving 26 miles.

Sure, some of those things are not necessary and have a higher risk than others. You can live without most of those things. However, many of the items on the list don't include 30k+ people all in one spot at the same time.

What’s your basis for this statement?

My "Outrage" isnt over "Me" or how it effects "Me"...Which is the common way to examine this and many issues in life.
My outrage comes from 25 Year Old niece, doing her best as a Covid ICU nurse, and the pictures, stories, and stress her life
has taken just starting as a nurse. I have 2 more In Covid ICU.
Then my son, a Pediatrician at Central Florida Hospital dealing with Parents, and children affected by some of these decisions.
Last are the educators in the family. Several Teachers, and one high ranking school official, no retired.
They share their views on the decisions made effecting teachers, as well as students.

So when a Politician makes a decision about healthcare for Children, and families, and the people we trust, Science, Medicine, and teachers take issue, and I hear this, I am effected and share that "Politics" is no substitute for those they put in charge of Human safety and lives..

Maybe we have gone numb, but 2000 weekly deaths in the country, while we scream about new topics, and ignore is bothersome.

I didnt make this Political, or selective, thats a position coming from others seeking power. Of course the perspective that those interested in saving lives, are all wrong, and They are all political....Have at it.

(as far as a Marathon, I respect your dedication and ability to do this. I know, I was a long distance runner briefly in high school. It is Hard.
But whats harder, while you have outrage over masks affecting You, in your passion, is to see others. You know whats hard?
trying to walk for more than 5 minutes, during the last 2 years, and 4 back surgeries. All of which were delayed, and difficult to me because
of Covid. I would likely be much Better, if we had Masks in Feb 2020. Count your blessings YOU can run, while others struggle to walk
and stay alive.)

Spare me the conspiracy.

Show me the data that gives you such high confidence that natural covid immunity is superior to vaccination.

Heck show me data for ANY disease that indicates that immunity via natural sources is superior to vaccinated immunity.

Don’t forget to take side effects into account.

I mean for most of that list, yeah?

Like look, I'm for everyone pursuing things that make them happy or better their life experience, but let's not pretend you're making an amazing contribution to the world by attending live music, playing pinball, running a marathon, or working out. The value it holds to you is what matters. If it means so much to you, why worry about other people validating what you do?

You mean like concerts and sporting events? Museums hold thousands of people. My local movie theater holds a few thousand people. The mall easily holds several thousand. Disney parks are capped around 20,000 per day, but designed to hold 50,000. How many thousands can fit in an airport? Casinos hold an awful lot of people.

Stern has employees on top of one another…maybe they should be shut down.

Penn station holds an incredible amount of people.

How many people can a cruise ship hold?

Anyone who thinks marathons should be shut down due to the virus, has lost all grip of reality. It’s an outdoor event. It’s not 32,000 people on top of each other. I can’t keep up with people and others can’t keep up with me.

Here’s a photo from one of the marathons I’ve done. Does it look like people are on top of each other?

A8F7D430-92C0-4526-9D4E-44340749ADC1 (resized).png

Not a football fan? Pretty sure all saturday and sunday long I was watching completely packed stadiums at colleges and pro.

So it's pretty much exactly as I said...."Here, take this and we'll see what happens".

I just find it odd that the goal of the vaccine is essentially teach the body how to create antibodies, but testing for the presence of antibodies is, and I quote "should not be used to evaluate a person’s level of immunity or protection from COVID-19 at any time, and especially after the person received a COVID-19 vaccination".

This guys natural immunity was not as good as he thought. He caught COVID the first time and thought he didn't need to get the vaccinated. He caught it again and it devastated his body. Its completely changed his life.

"Fitness trainer declined vaccine. Stunning photos show what happened to him.
Colorado fitness coach Bill Phillips is urging others to get the Covid-19 vaccine after ending up in the emergency room and losing 70 pounds fighting for his life from coronavirus."

https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/08/25/colorado-fitness-coach-coronavirus-vaccine-affil-pkg-vpx.kusa

This guy said the same about his immune system.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-sheriffs-deputy-33-dies-of-covid-19-complications

Facebook posts made by Trujillo show he was opposed, or at least hesitant, to getting vaccinated. He added a temporary profile picture that said, “I don’t care if you’ve had your vaccine,” on April 23.

He posted on April 26: “I’ll get it later on after y’all start growing apendages [sic] out of y’all’s foreheads.”

Another temporary profile picture updated on May 7 says, “I have an immune system.”

Natural immunity is a loaded statement in that your assuming your immune to a virus or that it wont affect you. Typically, your immune system has to respond and figure out how to destroy a virus which takes time. The body's own response can create problems also. Think of inflammation, clotting or even a sore throat. A sore throat is caused by your bodies immune reaction destroying the virus and good cells around the virus.

Vaccines give your body the blueprints on how to destroy a virus without having to FIRST figure it out.

Vaccines have changed the world since being developed and now we have the COVID-19 vaccine which has been a miracle. Needless deaths do not need to occur.
https___blogs-images.forbes.com_matthewherper_files_2013_03_c6fb5feb7f1ee71b7e725277d30999161 (resized).jpg

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matthewherper/2013/02/19/a-graphic-that-drives-home-how-vaccines-have-changed-our-world/?sh=163117b23302

A few hundred charities raise money through the NYC Marathon.

https://www.nyrr.org/tcsnycmarathon/runners/charity-index

But like you said, there's no contributions to running a marathon.

Oh I am consistent. Pretty much every one of those will change when I'm crowned king. Sports will be played in bubbles, similar to how hockey was played last year. There would NOT be 60,000 maskless fans screaming in the stands at a third down.

Here would be the rules: Mask and socially distanced everything. Every single one of them. Hey, look at that, I just found a way to get deadly respiratory virus under control. But we cannot handle that as a society. We bitch and moan about how intolerable it is to wear a mask in a marathon (which I obviously think should just be cancelled until we get the pandemic under control).

I want to address that one specifically. They should wait until after the pandemic. Of course the body needs to be handled immediately, but the gathering of the funeral should wait until the pandemic should be done. Technically it is then a memorial instead of a funeral, but that's life (and death). I'm practicing what I'm preaching here.

In the end, I still feel this is all simple. Deadly respiratory virus? Do the things that make it less likely to spread. Even the less than perfect ones. Our society is unable to cope with that, so I make my individual decisions to best protect myself. You won't see me sitting in a movie theatre, in a gym, or at a concert because none of them are worth the risk to me. I'd LOVE to see some live music right now, but we are in a pandemic, and 2366 people in the US died from it Tuesday. 3 of those 2366 people died right in your county Tuesday.

We could keep running around in a circle, but I'll stop and let you have the last word (as long as it isn't anything that requires a response or a lie). I'm sure everyone is ready to report this conversation as a broken record. We've both said what we think on the topic.