You do realize this is a novel virus right? There's been nothing like it before. It's brand new.

Science isn't perfect. Everybody is still figuring this thing out as they go. The general public just isn't used to seeing science unfold and develop live right before their eyes.

There isn't actually very much conflicting information. Scientists and doctors just keep refining and testing for what is most effective and what isn't.

Sigh.

No, there's not. Any time there is an adverse reaction, everyone immediately pounces on it. You do recall the vaccine distribution was halted for a short time when there was a potential issue discovered, right?

There's been just a tiny handful of verifiable issues out of the millions and millions of doses given. That's a spectacular track record, actually.

So you're assuming that this the best that the vaccine is ever going to be? What happened to the idea that there may be better possibilities that could come out that you were just going on about?

Went to the keg steakhouse yesterday where they charge you the price of the entire cow for 1 dish. Couldn't believe the lack of masks and social distancing. We're doomed unless people get a grasp of what's happening around us. The virus isn't going away anytime soon it's a new Novel like you said and fn scary.

Again, many speak as if they know for certain the exact answers as this continues to evolve. I’ve got friends and family both vaccinated and unvaccinated and I don’t label them as vax tards or conspiracy theorists like many others in here do. I sincerely hope whichever choice anyone makes works out in their best interests and I refuse to be disrespectful or call someone a name if their view doesn’t align with mine but I suppose many are fine with divide and conquer tactics, as evidenced in here.

Close to home. 60 miles from me.

https://www.kansas.com/news/coronavirus/article253764933.html

" Kansas man dies after waiting for ICU transfer as hospitals overwhelmed by COVID-19"

Read more here: https://www.kansas.com/news/coronavirus/article253764933.html#storylink=cpy

To be fair, he may have died anyway, but there was some searching going on for a hospital bed.

============================================================================

And Missouri is holding vaccine lotteries. Hey, Gov., $10,000.00 is not worth my time. Make it $50,000.00 and I'll think about it.

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253758553.html
========================================================

https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253684038.html

The man was severely anemic and suffering from what appeared to be a gastrointestinal bleed. He did not have COVID-19.

She said he needed care beyond what the small hospital with limited access could provide. So, the ER technician started making calls across the Kansas City area.

“Hospital after hospital after hospital did not have beds,” Edwards said. “There was absolutely no room for this patient to be taken.”

Read more here: https://www.kansascity.com/news/coronavirus/article253684038.html#storylink=cpy

We were warned this hospital bed shortage could be a possibility.

In case you missed this in the news and previous posts here - this guy said the same about his immune system.

https://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/local-news/denver-sheriffs-deputy-33-dies-of-covid-19-complications

Facebook posts made by Trujillo show he was opposed, or at least hesitant, to getting vaccinated. He added a temporary profile picture that said, “I don’t care if you’ve had your vaccine,” on April 23.

He posted on April 26: “I’ll get it later on after y’all start growing apendages [sic] out of y’all’s foreheads.”

Another temporary profile picture updated on May 7 says, “I have an immune system.”
dumb dumb (resized).png

Why would you expect a vaccine to be 100% effective in preventing Covid? Vaccines are very rarely 100% effective, and in fact the Covid vaccines have been way more effective than most people would have thought before they were developed. Yep, Covid is still hanging around (thanks in no small part to people that have refused the vaccine) and may well be with us forever. But given the amount of "research" you've conducted, can you honestly deny the overwhelming evidence that the vaccine significantly improves your chances of a) not getting Covid if you're exposed, b) not requiring hospitalization if you get Covid, and c) not dying if you get hospitalized?

I don't enjoy the thought. I also don't enjoy the thought of enduring chemo and radiation if I get cancer. But if modern science offers me options to improve my chance of positive outcomes I'm likely to take them so long as the side effects are tolerable.

As for the concept of a "modified and scientifically altered immune system," the idea that humans live in some pure "state of nature" but-for vaccines is a joke. Your environment is chock-full of human-made substances that impact your immune system. And every day you make conscious decisions -- informed by science (or pseudo-science) -- that impact your immune system. Whether your mom smoked or took prenatal vitamins, your immune system has been "modified and scientifically altered" since before you were born. Just like the rest of us.

But look at the folks who had a mild case last year and Delta sent them to the hospital this year.

Honestly, I'm exhausted.

I'm tired of seeing people getting sick and dying when a preventable measure was readily available, yet they refused to take it for what I think are completely misguided and foolish reasons. Then when they get sick, some of them beg for the vaccine, but by that point, it's far too late.

It's not a difficult concept. The virus is not fake. The vaccine is not a big mystery. There's no shadowy conspiracy lurking around the corner.

The virus is real, it can kill with a roll of the dice, and we have a vaccine that's pretty effective against it.

Yes, in the first few weeks when the vaccine came out, I was cautious, and I did my research (yes, actual research, not facebook research). Now the vaccine has been out for months with millions of doses, with lots of result data, and millions of lives saved.

Right now most of the hospital beds are being filled by unvaccinated people and putting a huge strain on the health care system and pushing certain hospitals beyond their breaking point. This could have been prevented if it weren't for stubborn people who got sucked into believing wacky theories and pseudo-science that makes no logical sense.

Absolutely and demonstrably untrue.

AKA - the last refuge of a fuckin' moron.

As an old friend used to say AINT NUTHIN BUT THE TRUTH

No one here is against drugs that are proven to work - known or yet to be proven. The cheaper the better. Bring'em on. Even when the 'big guy' got Covid he didn't get HCQ or Ivermectin. I wonder why?

The Ivermectin stuff is silly at this point. About a dozen people (including a South Dakota doctor trying to post horse to human Ivermectin recipes) have joined the thread slinging the exact same set of meaningless 'studies' pulled from the same sources that prove nothing. People on this thread would be all in if it is shown to work. It hasn't been yet, but we are standing by.

Highlighting doctors that have had anecdotal success with alternative treatments is usually the next thing. A doctor could prescribe mud baths and probably have a 99% success rate against death from Covid, depending upon their patients.

Your arguments are just repackaged back door, basic, anti-vaxxer talking points that have been rehashed and debunked continually and easily. People are generally as nice as they can be to guys like you on the thread, hoping to have a good faith discussion - but that's not generally why anti-vaxxers, Covid downplays, or natural herd immunity people hop on this thread.

We should really be discussing how Paul Stanley has such awesome hair at age 69. What the hell? If Ivermectin could grow hair like that, I would take it immediately!

We had an earnest and friendly conversation about this in our group chat. The bottom line is that some people still think the risk of getting vaccinated outweigh the risks of not getting vaccinated. I think some people can be persuaded through civil conversation. But the reality is that corporations are forcing the issue anyway: get vaccinated, or start looking for another job. My employer has set an Oct 18 deadline, and I think it’s even sooner for others.

Florida "no mask mandate" struck down.
Thank God.

Did the no mask mandate stop you from wearing a mask?

Dude, Ketamine is not an antiviral medicine! But apparently it is trendy though.

In Texas anti vax anti mask freedom organizer 30 years old been in hospital hogging up space for over a month now very little hope to survive.In the beginning I felt bad for these people but now I guess my blackheart says You fought against all possible help now reap it.

I’m not going to rehash my stance on Ivermectin yet again. I will comment on Ivermectin when there is new data to share. Otherwise I think the data speaks for itself at this point.

Of note today a study popped up on my feed from the UK that looked at clotting risk with COVID vaccines. They found a risk of 66/10,000,000 doses. So for every ten million people vaccinated, about 66 will develop some sort of clotting issue as a side effect.

Compare that to 12,614 clotting issues among ten million cases of COVID-19.

Yet another data point supporting vaccination vs the “I have an immune system, bring it on” approach.

I wonder if this is a rare covid discussion thread aside from the medical community. Since day one with nintenbear claiming coronavirus sickness. Is there a face book coronavirus thread?...that would be useless.

I didn't see anyone answer this question, or if I missed it, I apologize. Comirnaty, as you know, is the Pfizer brand name of the EUA COVID19 vaccine that has been administered and has shown efficacy since earlier this year. So to answer your question, Comirnaty has been used widely and has been available, and is likely currently available, to you, at no cost, at your vaccination site of choice. If you want Comirnaty specifically, then you should call your doctor to ask for that particular vaccine.

I apologize for not having data to back this up, but I would say this is just like every discussion of Covid outside of the medical community. It started with a flurry, then died down as almost an information sharing area, and then got some people kicked out for being assholes. Then it calmed down again for a while, and right now we are back with people making the exact same tired arguments filled with lies and innuendo while completely lacking any credible research.

Misinformation on Pinside? Yup, just like conversations about this topic anywhere.

The mask you wear is for others. The mask others wear is for you.

You know this, but you pretend not to know this.

giphy-12.gif

I didn't want to air my laundry while I was fighting it, and really while I was actively irritated and scared for my kid's fight with it (under 12), but in full disclosure I just finished what has been a 21-day battle of quarantine/illness from COVID Delta running through my house. I will stick to the facts in detailing the ordeal and let everyone pull their own conclusions and opinions from my experience:

1) My wife is an elementary school nurse and we knew the risks when we made the decision for her to go back last year, when in-person school kicked back off. Masks were required all of last school year, and about 30% of her school attended virtual learning. She made it through the entire first semester unvaccinated and without contracting COVID. She received her first dose of Moderna in December '20 and second in January '21. She made it through the second semester innoculated and without contracting COVID. This school year kicked off with no mask mandate and no virtual learning option - 100% capacity and about 70% of kids were opting to wear masks. She made it 5 days before contracting COVID. Her vaccine was just over 7 months old.

2) She was exposed by an unvaccinated special education teacher that never wore a mask to any faculty meeting or in her classroom during instruction. That teacher contracted COVID and came to school with symptoms, teaching for 2 full school days before finally reporting to my wife that her throat had been sore and she had a cough. My wife administered a rapid test which was positive, confirmed with PCR next day. That weekend 3 special education students fell ill, two with Downs Syndrome. One of them ended up in ICU for 10 days and will not be allowed to return to school for the remainder of this year. The teacher is currently in ICU. She has co-morbidities.

3) My wife woke with fever over 102 three days after testing the teacher, maintaining fever over 101 for four full days, and had sinus pain, congestion and dry cough. She lost taste and smell for three days, with both returning within 10 days. Her symptoms got better on day 5 and she was relatively recovered on day 7. My son and I quarantined to the complete opposite side of the house. I masked with N-95 and encountered her as little as possible.

4) My son has severe ADHD and we returned him to in-person learning in November of '20. Masks were mandated and apx. 50% of his school attended virtual learning throughout the year.. Being under 12 he was not vaccinated. He avoided contracting COVID for the entirety of the '20-'21 school year. He woke up with 101.5 fever on the fourth day of my wife's illness. No prior symptoms presented. He maintained fever for four days, reaching a high of 104.5 twice. Ibuprofen would break the fever under 100, but acetaminophen would barely touch it. He lost smell for 3 days. He experienced nausea for the first two days, dry cough, sinus pain and congestion. His fever broke on day 5 and all symptoms vanished overnight, save for the dry cough that lingered for a few days.

5) My daughter (22 yrs) never experienced any symptom and never tested positive despite being on the same side of the house as my wife and being exposed to her up until symptoms presented. She was Moderna vaccinated in May.

6) I felt like I had a head cold starting on Day 3 of my wife's illness. That drainage moved into my chest and I had symptoms of bronchitis beginning Day 5. I felt generally unwell on Day 7 after my wife first experienced symptoms, and I tested positive that same day. My symptoms worsened that night, with bronchitis being the worst. The next day I experienced the worst sinus pain I have ever felt. Every inch of my sinuses were inflamed and I felt like my head was going to burst like Scanners. I was congested in my head and chest. My joints ached but my temperature never exceeded 99.5. My wife heard fluid in my chest and made me breathe deeply and cough a few times over the first couple of days of my illness. I felt pretty cruddy for 3 days and not great for another 2. Sinus congestion/pressure and productive cough remained for a few days, but have mostly cleared. I had no other symptoms, but lost taste and smell. Taste slowly returned to apx 50% of normal. I still have zero ability to smell. I have sinus headaches that continue, but I have sinus headaches from allergies pretty often.

7) I was Pfizer vaccinated in April and am in my early 40s.

Let's be straight, not all unvaccinated are conspiracy theorists, no one has said that. But the unvaccinated are directly responsible for spreading this virus, the illnesses and deaths and the economic fallout much more than the vaccinated. They simply are not doing their part to fight the virus and help out their community and country. They have chosen to divide themselves from the rest of us and not help fight the virus, that is totally on them.

I hope you and your family have a full recovery.I see this as an example of someone thinking more of their right to ignore the rest of the peoples health and do the foolish selfish ignorant thing.Imagine going to a school around children and adults and have the selfishness to not wear a mask probably not vaccinated either.How many families did this Covid mary infect.Its even possible she may have killed someone and dont know it.Disgusting

It could also be said your arguments are also just repackaged big pharma approved pro vaccination talking points that have been rehashed and echoed continuously by media and celebrities.

Hungry dogs and a dead husband. She won't ever get that image out of her head. Get vaccinated....

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/coronavirus/article253756333.html

You forgot to mention the global medical community as well… but there it is.

Tell us more about your ideas, which, in contrast, are solely the product of your own intelligence and independent research. There are certainly no celebrities or politicians echoing your sentiments. You have had to work hard to come to your position about vaccines, Ivermectin, and how everyone else here is a sheep in need of some shearing.

I am no doctor. I did not take the Hippocratic Oath.

Leave her there.

Sorry for what you were dealing with. None of your family died. That's good to hear.

No, I’m assuming it will always be profit over cures similar to why aids and cancer are still a thing and why insulin isn’t free.

The vaccine may actually get dialed in better, or not, it may be causing the mutations, or not, and so on. It’s too early to tell. But profit will still likely dictate what ultimately happens. It would be foolish to assume they only ever wanted it to be one shot done and cured. Annual flu shots became a nice revenue stream.

I’m also concerned with the long term effects and numerous adverse reaction reports and issues for people who have already been advised not to take it by their doctors.

It's a good thing the people trying to sell you horse paste aren't interested in money, they just want to help you and they disdain profits or agendas.

Definitely go with the horse paste. And the aquarium chemical. And the stuff the pillow guy was trying to get you to eat a year ago. Won't profit "big pharma" so you know it's good for you!

There's part of the problem.

There is probably some profit motivation as with most things, yes, but multiple companies have released vaccines. It's not just one potentially nefarious or greedy actor. There's competition and options.

On the other hand, the people trying to sell you on these quack miracle cures don't exactly have your best interests at heart.

Such as? The ingredients of the vaccine break down and leave your system in days. The manufactured spike proteins are around for maybe about week before your immune system fully wipes them out.

Other than the obviously seeded database full of publicly submitted junk data, what numerous reports are you seeing?

Do you have examples of situations where doctors have told patients not to get it? I can't say that I've actually heard about specific reasons why (other than someone who may have a compromised immune system).

With billions of hosts that can incubate mutated variants directly and possibly 200 trillion indirect hosts in the form of birds (avian flu) it is a wonder we have any success at all with flu vaccines yearly and is why sometimes they work well, and some seasons hardly work at all. The same problem exists with COVID, and if we have to take a yearly shot against it, why not? Big pharma can not win the flu war any better than they will win a COVID war, but the amount of lives saved yearly makes it worth doing. As our knowledge of a virus grows, the paths of the infections, the strain, the variants are all cataloged and tracked. They then make a "best guess" on which strain or strains MIGHT be more prevalent for this season and base the flu vaccine on fighting those strains. When they guess right, we have a mild flu season. They guess wrong, we have a bad one. Right now, there are very limited COVID strains and the vaccines can be way more effectively engineered. If we were to actually quash the virus to the point below the natural infection rates, we have a chance right now of killing it off like polio or smallpox. But the antivax sentiment is making that more and more unachievable every day.

Those diseases are incredibly complex. The advances in just the past 10 years to combat them have been incredible.

https://www.americangene.com/blog/why-is-it-so-difficult-to-find-an-hiv-cure/

Keep in mind that there isn't just one form of cancer. There's well over 100 different types:

https://www.cancer.gov/types

I'm not sure if you caught the headlines on this, but mRNA vaccines are currently in development for HIV/AIDS as well as a few specific forms of cancer.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/moderna-begin-human-trials-two-experimental-hiv-vaccines-180978521/

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/new-cancer-treatments-may-be-on-the-horizonthanks-to-mrna-vaccines

Development of mRNA vaccines were advanced by years in just a short amount of time because of a good chunk of the scientific community focusing on that for covid.

So actually, you could thank covid for pushing some of the medical advancements we're likely going to see with all sorts of viral and cancer treatments in the next few years.

That could be said. But it wouldn't be said by someone who was taking the massive amount of actual evidence developed by the medical community seriously. Of course if you've already concluded that the Covid vaccine doesn't work, can't work, and won't work, then any data suggesting otherwise must necessarily be incorrect. In which case it's admittedly easier to describe it as a "talking point" than to address it head on.

Put another way, if someone you dislike adopts the truth as a talking point does that somehow make the truth untrue?

Ha...geez Paul...maybe you could have retired that part of the act by now?

100%.

My wife's breast cancer was one of the very aggressive types and she has the genetic markers for it. The drugs that saved her life only came out 10 years ago. Her oncologist said otherwise it would have been a death sentence. The drugs were targeted for the type she had.

I know there's this "big bag pharma" stigma out there, but don't let that drown out the work that untold numbers of scientists are doing at those organizations and the products that are coming out of them.

Finally, we’ve hit a bit of middle ground we can likely both agree on. I appreciate that.

The competition and options part of it seem to warrant the need for more scientific analysis and data both short and long term to help make it easier to know which one is the best of the available options with the least potential for adverse reactions.

Some may respond better or worse to certain options depending on their previous medical history or conditions.

I have not concluded that, I am glad it’s been made available but it’s unfortunate it seems to have done little to slow the spread or prevent lockdowns or eliminate the need for masks and etc. I also think it’s unfortunate that 2 doses is now looking like boosters, and who knows how many or for how long.

I used to think there was sinister motive for keeping cancer around. When you think about it, the treatment of cancer generates some big bucks.

But in 1986, I lost my 42 YO sister to pancreatic cancer. Hers was a short 6 month battle. She was a smoker, but I have no idea if smoking made a direct contribution to her pancreas cancer.

In 1988, my dad, who was a heavy heavy smoker met his match with lung cancer. He was diagnosed the previous summer and fought an 8 month battle.

In 1989, my mother succumbed to breast cancer (radical mastectomy in 1974 ). All of the cancer did not get removed in surgery and 1978 it showed up again. This time it had moved into her flat bones (ribs, pelvis ) and moved slowly. You can call it 1974 and she survived until 1989 for a 15 run. Or you can call it from 1978 to 1989 for an 11 year run. The hospital had three books of records on her.

In 1997, my brother, also a heavy smoker, got lung cancer and his battle lasted about 6 months.

I am not looking for pity. Those years are long gone and life moves on.

But after dealing with all of what I dealt with, it got me out of the mindset that there are deliberate efforts to keep the cancer money train rolling. You can say they (the ever present "they") are deliberately keeping cancer going as a profit center, but I am not buying it.

People are saying Covid will now always be around. OK. I'll go with that.

But I'll also go with people get old. They get sick. Or they don't take care of their health. Or maybe our entire lifestyle is to blame. Obviously, smoking is widely known to cause lung cancer---and if smoking does not cause lung cancer, there sure is a strong correlation. What about all of the exhaust fumes we pour into our air? ( from the "old enough" thread, I recall when Lee Iacocca, CEO of Chrysler was fighting the govt. over clean air standards. His statement was a doozie, " How much clean air do we need, anyway? " Yeah, he actually said that. ). Does the breathing of exhaust fumes do something to contribute to someone contracting cancer?

I will defer to others here with more medical knowledge than I but AFAIK, we don't know what causes cancer or what types of cancer. And if we don't know what causes something, what causes anything, if we don't know the cause, how can we effect the cure?

No one has to take cancer treatments. They could take their chances and just let the chips fall, but cancer treatment offers the possibility of extending one's life. Most people opt to try to stick around for as long as the can. If a cancer stricken person decided "this is it, it is time to check out, the cancer industry would die on the vine. But most opt for more life.

Enough of the cancer thing.

Let's talk AIDS---briefly. I don't keep up with the latest in the AIDS world, so my thoughts are still that AIDS is spread from unprotected sex. You can correct me if I am wrong. But if I am right, and if we want AIDS to disappear all everybody has to do is keep their clothes on and stay away from one night stands. End of AIDs problem.

Or maybe the pornographers have a connection with the AIDS medical community and they get some monetary action on the side. That sound crazy doesn't it. I know it sounds crazy. But if we want to go with conspiracy theories, your profit angle also sounds crazy, too.

You have no proof that cancer and AIDs are considered a profit center. You only have conjecture. And conjecture is all you have.

This is incorrect, the vaccine has done a lot to slow the spread and prevent lockdowns. The unvaccinated, however, have accelerated the spread of the virus with delta and now are responsible for the vast majority of the infections, hospitalizations, deaths, economic fallout, lockdowns, masking and social distancing. You can see this in all the recent data of infection rates, hospitalizations and death comparing vaccinated and unvaccinated. The US would have this much more under control if not for the unvaccinated.

Can’t get this great airplane scene out of my head on this whole “debate”.

Except that in a lot of countries with a National Health System, such things actually are free.

And even if there are plenty of corporations that only care about profits, there are plenty of individual doctors and scientists that actually DO want to cure such illnesses.