No, people are called stupid and getting what they deserve when they call the advice of all the doctors, experts in the field and CDC to follow some simple safety guidelines during a global pandemic a "medical experiment" and advocate for risky behavior that is literally spreading the virus, causing more infections, killing more people and hurting businesses and the entire economy. Or go further a purposely spread disinformation and lies created by QAnon and other conspiracy theorists. Or even worse, purposely expose people to the virus or advocate using bleach, dog heartworm medicine and other totally nuts "cures" instead of just getting a vaccination or wearing a mask. Personally I wouldn't call it stupid, I call it selfish, irresponsible and dangerous.

What part of “I want everyone to get vaccinated” do you not understand? I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve said this.

Businesses hurt by the unvaccinated??? What??? This whole time, I thought it was the government that shut businesses down…

I’ve said every life is precious…but you’re so right. That’s me not showing any empathy.

What was that thing Qui-Gon said…”the ability to speak does not make one intelligent.”

The vaccine is out and readily available. The data shows they are incredibly effective. Anyone who is unvaccinated and catches it…it is on them.

The masks don’t work. You need the 95 style and only wear them once, then on to a new one. No one is doing this.

I just can’t anymore….fiction is way too fun with some of the posters here who are blatantly making up what I said or downright ignoring what I do say. It’s tiring…I honestly don’t know how people around you do it on a daily basis.

Alright....but what happens when they spread it to next 2 persons, let's just say one vaccinated person and one unvaccinated person? Is it the same result for both? No, the unvaccinated may die, the other may not even get sick.

No, not all vaccinated, but the "breakthru" cases who get infected even if they are vaccinated. Current studies show about 45% efficacy against delta infection.

The transmission rate in vaccinated folks is approximately halved with Delta, according to UK real world data, where 99.5% of cases are Delta. So the vaccinated do not spread Covid 'just as easily'- it halves the risk.

Vaccinated people also tend not to die, go to hospital, go on ventilators, and have much milder symptoms and possibly (tbc) avoid Long Covid. The risk benefit therefore clearly supports getting vaccinated.

Which then begs the question- why wouldn't you?

This, of course, is NOT true since being vaccinated lowers the risk of becoming infected in the first place. Delta variant lowers the efficacy but it's still working AND keeping the majority of vaccinated people out of the hospital.

So, you are OK with a new, untested use for an anti-parasitic (Ivermectin), but not OK with a vaccine whose mRNA framework has been around since SARS in 2003. Check.

Remind me again which highly contagious disease and pandemic was raging in Germany in the 1930's & 40's during the Nazi and Goebbels era?... You are trying to equate an economic philosophy with a public health issue. Your comparison is disingenuous.

An association fallacy is an informal inductive fallacy of the hasty-generalization or red-herring type and which asserts, by irrelevant association and often by appeal to emotion, that qualities of one thing are inherently qualities of another.

Bonus points for: Reductio ad Hitlerum, also known as playing the Nazi card, is an attempt to invalidate someone else's position on the basis that the same view was held by Adolf Hitler or the Nazi Party. One example would be that since Hitler was against smoking, this implies that someone who is against smoking is a Nazi.

Goebbels brushed his teeth. Do YOU brush your teeth? Pretty suspicious.

Don’t bother guys. End of the day they will just keep repeating the same lines over and over no matter what you say and then as a cherry on top suggest that you a nazi.

I can’t help but wonder if a little bit of that ‘cherry on top’ you mention comes (at least in part) as payback for the last couple years of the term being used ad nauseum toward those of a particular political leaning.

We are all hypocrites (and apparently nazis).

I'm not 1000% sure because that is impossible, but I am 100% sure. The cited article states that there is a 20-fold decrease in risk of death afforded by vaccination, even when one only looks at 'at least 1 dose' i.e. not fully vaccinated people. I'm sure the figures are even more favourable for double-vaccinated people. So your insinuation that vaccination makes minimal difference to mortality risk so why bother is incorrect. Specifically:

"... the 20-fold decrease in risk afforded by the vaccine isn’t enough to offset the 32-fold increase in underlying risk of death of an 70-year-old over a 35-year-old. Given the same risk of infection, we would still expect to see more double-vaccinated 70-year-olds die from COVID than unvaccinated 35-year-olds."

So I would still posit that vaccination is A Very Good Thing, and that these metrics are expected and unconcerning. Isn't maths complicated?

Wait....what? Did you even read what's being said there? There are so many lines in that article that should cause you to think you've been wrong, but somehow you read it as a confirmation that you have been right all along?
Pinballs already quoted some. There's a lot that should make you feel confidend that vaccines are helping big time. I.e:
"PHE data suggests that being double vaccinated reduces the risk of being hospitalised with the now-dominant delta variant by around 96%."

Ok, I will try it....see if it gives me satisfaction, for there must be a reason for posting like that.
Are you 1000% certain that pigs can't fly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_pigs_fly
Nope, I don't feel any real satisfaction yet. Maybe it takes more time and effort before I can enjoy it?

If one feels that masks/vaccines
and it's push is Fascist/Nazi/Socialist
as these words are thrown out, I'd encourage a quick read.
Dr Tim Snyder, " On Tyranny"
is a small book, from a recognized global
leader on the subject.
Ones definitions and perspectives
might be different.
Of course, some just wave their
hands, and insult a " Doctor" and simply
believe they know more.
( if it was appropriate, those that don't know, I'd love to give you an hour with family still alive that you can rub their tattooed number from a concentration camp)

This statement could be easily flip flopped by people on the other side of the fence.

Interestingly enough, the CDC study says exactly the opposite. Of the 5 people hospitalized, 4 of them were fully vaccinated. 74% of the people that tested positive were fully vaccinated.

Granted a 469 person sample size is pretty much worthless, but then again, so is a 40,000 person sample size used to push the vaccine through with emergency approval. Anyway, back to our regularly scheduled show where people that aren't vaccinated are stupid and uneducated.

During July 2021, 469 cases of COVID-19 associated with multiple summer events and large public gatherings in a town in Barnstable County, Massachusetts, were identified among Massachusetts residents; vaccination coverage among eligible Massachusetts residents was 69%. Approximately three quarters (346; 74%) of cases occurred in fully vaccinated persons (those who had completed a 2-dose course of mRNA vaccine [Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna] or had received a single dose of Janssen [Johnson & Johnson] vaccine ≥14 days before exposure). Genomic sequencing of specimens from 133 patients identified the B.1.617.2 (Delta) variant of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in 119 (89%) and the Delta AY.3 sublineage in one (1%). Overall, 274 (79%) vaccinated patients with breakthrough infection were symptomatic. Among five COVID-19 patients who were hospitalized, four were fully vaccinated; no deaths were reported.

Our hospitals are overflowing again with Covid patients and 95% of them are unvaccinated. Surgeries and procedures are being postponed again, mask mandates are back in many areas because of the hospital situation, people with other medical emergencies are receiving slow or diminished care, and front line medical providers are quitting or leaving emergency and/or ICU care due to Covid care induced burnout.

How can you honestly say the collective decision by you and a significant portion of the population is only affecting yourselves? That takes a special type of denial and selfishness to not see how your actions (or lack thereof) are affecting all of us.

I'm sure you are rationalizing it in your head for a number of different reasons, one if which is likely political. Lest you think my comments are political and coming from a lefty that doesnt understand the Constitution or "individusl" rights, know that I am a Republican and former party state delegate. I just don't buy into the totally misguided idea that somehow public health, Covid, and our health and well being is somehow a freedom and individual rights issue. This thinking is a creation of the new alt right and is ignorant andembarassing IMO.

But there is a logic difference.
One view is using collective knowledge, and do somethings routed in science and medicine, and the other is do nothing.
If anti mask anti vax were presenting alternatives, then your point holds more weight.
In fairness, eventually covid will " go away", the consequences would be different.
What bothers me most is the disrespect for our medical community.
For one view, perhaps if the discussion was money, it might be better.
Is everyone ready for double or triple health insurance costs that will come from an unmitigated national health crisis?
Perhaps if someone pays more for being a smoker, insurance companies triple costs to the unvaxed. Maybe That is a greater motivation.

I’m glad to to see Pinside is doing it’s part to shut down dangerous misinformation in this thread lately.

It has to be done. Literally, lives are at stake lately, and people are all too willing to play their sick little games and kill people.

We all have to do our part, collectively, to try to stop the lies that are helping destroy our society you giving unending life to this pandemic.

It’s not a responsibility or duty the mods asked for or want I’m sure but they are doing the right thing. We are well past the “fun and games” part of this debacle at this point.

What about you?

https://uk.news.yahoo.com/most-covid-deaths-vaccinated-heres-102424441.html

I looked at the link you provided. And then I clicked on the link inside the article.

" More vaccinated people are dying of COVID than unvaccinated people, according to a recent """"report from Public Health England (PHE)"""". The report shows that 163 of the 257 people (63.4%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive COVID test between February 1 and June 21, had received at least one dose of the vaccine. At first glance, this may seem alarming, but it is exactly as would be expected. "

This is the link the author referred to.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201

My question is: Which article was the author referring to that talks about which article breaks down the numbers?

Which article supports his " The report shows that 163 of the 257 people (63.4%) who died of the delta variant within 28 days of a positive COVID test between February 1 and June 21, had received at least one dose of the vaccine..." because I don't have the time to sort thru 10+ articles to find it.

I am no way smart enough to figure all of this out. Perhaps you could read it and interpret it for me, please?

Here you are. Linking that crappy link again.

BTW: I learned to click on inside links because of one of my former senators. Right after he was elected for the 2009 session ( keep in mind that in 2008 were gasoline prices pushing $4.50 per gallon before that collapsed down into the sub-two dollar range) and as the economy was starting to come back after the disastrous 2008 ) gas prices started coming back up to around $2.20 per gallon , I got an email from him wildly claiming gas prices are higher than they have ever been. I wrote back that I did not think he knew WTF he was talking about.

So, after this nice little lie from the lying bastard, I started clicking on his links. He would talk about about what he was doing in Congress blah blah blah. So I go looking at his youtube links and none of them were remotely connected to the trash he was sending me in his emails. I lost respect for him...and then he went on to become Secretary of State.

So, I clicked on the inside link in the article you provided and I can see the author was hoping no one would take a look.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/investigation-of-novel-sars-cov-2-variant-variant-of-concern-20201201

Except when people continue repeating demonstrably false statements, it doesn’t make them true. It just looks like this:

https://twitter.com/jerrijamz/status/1426052914255106049?s=21

People stamping their feet and reposting articles they haven’t read, don’t understand, or don’t want to understand just makes them look like they aren’t in touch with reality.

Reality right now looks like this:

This reality could change if people would vaccinate, mask, and take other common sense precautions. But instead, the hospitals are filling up with people who are in the first video and we are absolutely wearing out the heroes in the second video.

From November 13, 2017.

The Next Pandemic

The 2nd speaker talks about the Pandemic of 1918. And he talks how our medical system could be overwhelmed. I would say he made a good call because our medical system is overwhelmed.

The scientists, in the back ground, are quite knowledgable about viruses. I am of the opinion that politicians are just a bunch of idiots whose main stock in trade is getting you to believe lies. but who gets all the press?

The 3rd speaker is Dr. Fauchi. I have not listened to him yet.

People are breaking with reality. I live in Freedom From Reality central. This is an ex-Disney star believing her ignorance surpasses the wisdom of the entire local medical community here in Williamson County.

Life after Delta?

I've been wondering what life will be like after Delta peaks probably after Christmas towards beginning of summer similar to Alpha did if not sooner because of how fast the Delta spreads? When you look at other countries and their daily cases with Delta and how the Alpha variant came in waves up until its major peak around Christmas will Delta run its course also? If all the vaccinated, breakthrough vaccinated, and unvaccinated that get covid get to a certain percentage can Delta have no place to go and go away like Alpha was looking like it was about to before Delta came along?

Our biggest hope can be no variant comes along that is worse then Delta(I do know of the Lambda but not sure if its worse) and a variant forms that's weaker similar to what happen with the 1918 flu and how its still found in the make up of the flu today but much weaker. Can covid become like the common cold eventually?

Hypothetically if Delta never came along would we have won this battle?

Also to all that say I'm not getting vaccinated or go get vaccinated we are all in this together like one big science experiment whether you like it or not were all part of the statistics one way or the other.

Statistics can be misinterpreted in so many ways.

If everybody (100%) were vaccinated, then some would still get a "breakthrough" infection. And unfortunately some of those would be serious cases, and eventually some could die. Since the vaccination rate is 100%, that means all deaths are among vaccinated people.

Now, that doesn't mean that vaccinated people are more likely to die. Think about if nobody had been vaccinated, then it could be observed that all deaths are un-vaccinated, and no vaccinated people have died.

Thanks for the rational post!

The oddball collection of c-list celebs the anti-vax movement has attracted is staggering.

I’d love to be an ear on wall of a meeting of the minds of the likes of eric Clapton, Kevin sorbo, the iced earth guy, Ted Nugent, Scott baio...

And it begins….

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/ware-county-closing-schools-glynn-county-closing-government-offices-due-to-covid-outbreaks/77-8e43e899-0024-4177-ae30-b7bb8b285886

I just realized after reading all the crazy comments here, I am limited on how many times I can down vote a clueless person here. I reached my limit.

Travelers , please when you visit Canada and happen to get stopped by the press, mask up!

20210815_212522 (resized).jpg

Asked santa early for a Ronnie James Dio Pillow Levi! Scott baio lol!!!

Thankfully "During this two-week pause, no instruction will take place. In-season extra-curricular practices and competitions will continue as scheduled."

Wait, what?

Gosh, I'm hoping it peaks a lot faster than that, during Alpha we didn't have a vaccine now at least 55% of the population is vaccinated and some have natural immunity after catching it (we won't ever know the percentage) so hopefully it will peak a helluva lot faster than the Alpha variant. I'm also interested to know if the newest variants Kappa and Lambda can cause issues down the road. Dr. Gottlieb is on record saying he thinks Covid will move from a pandemic to endemic.

The old "two weak(sic) pause" by Gretch, or is it Jennifer???

No, you are wrong. People with the virus can spread the virus, whether they are vaccinated or not. The unvaccinated are massively spreading the virus more and responsible for more infections, deaths, and the bad economic fallout. You seem to be trying to pretend to yourself that your behavior isn't as risky to the rest of us that it is and are ignoring the economic impact of your actions. There's no way in hell I'm letting you around my kids, parents or friends.

I feel like there have always been these nutters in America, the internet just gives them more exposure than before. I love that she clearly doesn't understand the Constitution, Bill of Right or the Bible, and says she "gave up" her Hollywood career to move to Tennessee when she never had a movie career and is just making excuses for her failures. Jesus would be on the side of saving people's lives lady.

You have a warped view of reality.

You keep advocating for medical misinformation and borderline quackery.

You do realize everyone wants the pandemic to be over, right?

You do realize we have a vaccine that helps knock back the foothold the virus has, right?

You do realize that being unvaccinated only helps to increase the possible vectors for which the virus can spread, right?

A novel virus of this magnitude that has spread across the entire planet takes a novel approach to defeat it. What we're seeing right now is cutting edge science at work and unfold in real time. It's not something the average person gets to see happen every day. And for people who don't fully understand the scientific process, it can be quite confusing. Because we're learning as we go and this virus keeps changing. For people familiar with science and technology, those areas are constantly changing, we're constantly learning, and there is very little that is absolutely 100% certain. Science generally has ranges of possibilities that can emerge under a variety of conditions.

If you see a fire, you put it out with water, right? Well, only if it's a certain type of fire. Grease fires you smother. Chemical fires sometimes require other methods to extinguish. Fires in zero-g require still other methods. In terms of the virus, scientists are actively trying to figure out what is effective and what isn't while they're actively fighting all these new types of fires which haven't been seen before.

So, while scientists are bringing us the very best they have to offer, meanwhile we have people *actively* trying to throw wrenches into the works screaming that scientists are incompetent, we're all lab rats, 5G is spreading the virus, and all sorts of other wackadoodle things that have no basis in reality.

The scientific literacy of the average person is fairly low, unfortunately. I bet if you asked them how a microwave worked, the answer would be magic. Some people even think microwaves are radioactive and don't want to be anywhere near them. I knew one person who ran an elderly care group home who didn't understand microwaves and was terrified of them and refused to allow them into the home. That person made everyone's lives so much more difficult than things had to be.

Bringing this back to your post, the reason you are seeing this is that some people understand how a microwave works and others do not. They fear the microwave. Microwaves aren't that complicated, all the information is there, but they actively fight against having microwaves.

It's not surprising that people have little understanding of how technology works, how vaccines work, or basics of human biology, immunology, and virology. So, we have fear running amok because people have no understanding or grounding in why scientists are making the recommendations they are making. So, mix ignorance with fear and extreme individualism and you have people fighting against the very things that could save their lives and the lives of the people around them.

This would almost be comical if it wasn't so tragic.

You don't go into battle completely naked. Put some body armor on and get the vaccine. Body armor might not stop every bullet from hitting you or injuring you, but it does at least offer some protection and increases your odds of survival.

If you have an army that's completely naked, they aren't going to be very effective as a unit. If only a few soldiers in that army have equipment and body armor, the unit still isn't terribly effective. If the entire unit is fully equipped and armored, then that army could be quite effective.

Same goes for the vaccine. If everyone who was able to get vaccinated got vaccinated, you would have a pretty effective barrier against the virus.

Smallpox, Mumps, Measles, Polio, Meningitis, Tetanus, Hepatitis A/B, Rubella, Pertussis, Rotavirus, Chickenpox, Diphtheria--all diseases that can lead to serious complications, after effects, and death. All have pretty much been eradicated or are generally trivial to manage and treat. Sure, before the vaccines for those diseases, many people still did survive them. But many people also didn't, or were left with serious permanent/long-term health conditions.

So, the goal here is to add covid to this list. Hopefully it too can be eradicated and will become an old time disease from the distant past that nobody really thinks about any more. And that is what the scientific progress you see happening right now is all about.

"If God meant for man to fly, he would have given him wings. "

This is the mentality we are dealing with. Add in that many many people get their source of education from the TV ( this show is based on a true story. Cough cough----the only thing that has not changed is their names).

The people we see in these videos talking up not getting vaccinated all sound like they got to 8th grade and stopped going to school.