There hasn't been anyone on this thread making an argument for forced vaccinations. It's a straw man argument tossed out by some here who have been critical of masking/vaccinations/distancing/pandemic response too strong/etc for who knows what reason?

Wife and I got Moderna a few weeks ago and had sore arms, achy/fatigue for a day or two and are eagerly awaiting our second shot next week. I would take any shot the FDA has authorized - JnJ, Moderna, or Pfizer.

Side note - I have all Apple products, but have developed a sudden interest in SurfacePro for some reason. /s

Is this a tradition that carries on to this day

https://www.passports.com.

We can always go back to this, but I get your point.

https://www.cdc.gov/quarantine/historyquarantine.html

"Late 19th Century
Outbreaks of cholera from passenger ships arriving from Europe prompted a reinterpretation of the law in 1892 to provide the federal government more authority in imposing quarantine requirements. The following year, Congress passed legislation that further clarified the federal role in quarantine activities. As local authorities came to realize the benefits of federal involvement, local quarantine stations were gradually turned over to the federal government. Additional federal facilities were built and the number of staff was increased to provide better coverage. The quarantine system was fully nationalized by 1921 when administration of the last quarantine station was transferred to the federal government.

Public Health Service Act
The Public Health Service ActExternalexternal icon of 1944 clearly established the federal government’s quarantine authority for the first time. The act gave the U.S. Public Health Service (PHS) responsibility for preventing the introduction, transmission, and spread of communicable diseases from foreign countries into the United States. "

Just got my 2nd dose from the VA. No ill effects, so far. But it has only been an hour.

With both 1st and 2nd dose I was given my shots by good experienced people. I never felt the needle stick either time.

Now I am a card carrying member.

IMG_5764 (resized).JPG

Ok, so we won't call it forced but we'll just prevent you from interacting with other people and limit your movements if you don't get vaccinated.

Anyway, do we then tell people they can't fly if they don't vaccinated for the Flu, Encephalitis, Typhoid Fever, etc.

I'm astonished by what people perceive as their freedom. We have a choice. I usually don't get flu shots and such because the side effects can be what I already have. (Pancreatitis) But I will happily get vaccinated for covid.

I struggle understanding how people relate masks and such to their freedom. I've been incarcerated. And almost always felt like I had many freedoms. If I wasn't being transferred, I had the freedom to contact my family. I had the freedom in prison to enroll in college classes. And turn my life around.

The most important thing to me is we have the freedom to complain about an issue most rational people think is common sense.

Just a few trying to stir up fear of vaccines and government overreach I maintain there will never be vaccine mandates but some are using its remote possibility as a freedom of choice, fear mongering tactic.

I suspect there are going to be pockets nationwide trying to turn this into the anti-mask 2.0 debate we had to endure last year. While there obviously won't be any government mandates, I anticipate the whining/Constitution waving to begin once airlines, concert venues, etc announce they are going to require proof of vaccination to utilize their services/venues.

I would not care one bit if the people you mentioned were vaccinated or not. Nor would I feel it’s my right to know if they were. It’s a personal choice and should remain that way. I have no intention of getting this vaccine unless they make it almost impossible to live any kind of normal life. I am not an anti-vaxer either. I believe in all the childhood vaccines as myself, my wife and kids have all had them. I just view this differently. I’ve never gotten a flu shot in my life either. An earlier post comparing not being vaccinated and driving 100 mph through your town is comparing apples and oranges. People know this virus is out there and can take the necessary steps to protect themselves if they feel the need whereas a car traveling 100 mph through the center of town will leave a split second of time to protect yourself.

That would be me. I hinted towards that in my post.

Spyderturbo007 I think the line is exactly where you would expect it to be. It is when a pandemic is raging through the society. Obviously we are not at that point yet. It is quite possible just vaccinating the people that want to be vaccinated will get this under control. At some point in the future (months?) anyone who wants to get a vaccine will just be able to get it. If that gets the pandemic under control, awesome. However, if it is still spreading rapidly, more drastic measures will need to be taken. As PantherCityPins was saying, things like restrictions on stuff you like to do (public travel, concerts...). That will influence more people to get the vaccine. Again, evaluations and data to decide what is needed next.

Could that get to the point of a forced vaccination? Sure it could. If we are unable to control the pandemic, at some point we would have to do something. The choice would be to live in isolation, or get the vaccine. It couldn't get to there for any of the other diseases you mentioned. None of them could cross the threshold of this pandemic. Our society does this all the time. Many of our laws are society restricting what you can do, and when you personally choose to do those things, there is a cost.

And like I said in my original post, I do understand the hypocrisy of what I'm saying. You should be able to do whatever you want right up until it impacts others, and then I turn around and argue society should do exactly that. But I don't think it will get to that. I think I'll be playing pinball with friends before Thanksgiving once the vaccine is available (and time for it to work). Maybe even sooner.

I smiled bigly upon reading that. i needed a laugh.

So am I to understand that people with shellfish or bee sting allergy are at a higher risk for an adverse reaction from the COVID vaccine? My wife has both of these!

Let me preface this comment by saying I’m personally not sure how I feel about this issue.

But let’s be frank—that’s a stinking load and completely disingenuous. When you say to people, you can get a vaccine OR not be able to make a living and feed your family or perform other basic functions in society, you’re not giving people a choice. Let’s be honest.

There are already restrictions on your activities based on societal norms. You can't run naked through the streets. If you don't have shirt and shoes, many businesses won't serve you.

Here's one that will shock you. You can already be committed involuntarily if you refuse treatment for tuberculosis. That's been the law for decades. Why? Because tuberculosis is considered a major health risk to the population and we want to control any spread of it. Sound familiar?

To answer your specific question, no you wouldn't be restricted for not having flu vaccine or typhoid because those diseases aren't currently causing a pandemic that has killed more Americans in one year than died in WWI, WWII or Vietnam. Seems pretty straightforward to me.

Again, you don't have to fly on a plane. You can drive your car to your destination. You don't have to go to a football game, you can watch it on TV. You don't have to go to a concert, you can listen to the music at home. Make your choice.

I do find it funny that many of the same people (not you specifically spyder) who were advocating for everyone at high risk of COVID just stay home are now crying foul when it is suggested that a vaccine might be required to participate in certain activities or travel. I guess the answer is if you are scared of a vaccine stay home and let the rest of us get on with life, right????

I want to know that myself.

All I do know, is a few weeks ago on local news, they ran a story about someone that has shellfish allergies died within a hour of getting a vaccination.

I would like to know all the risks, and who is more at risk.

Every time a drug is advertised on TV they tell about all the possible risks, I would like to know about the risks with these new vaccines.

Super, I will mark you down for 'no preference'. Unaffiliated, as Everett T McGill would say. My preference is that all people would choose to vaccinate and some are morally obligated to do so. Vaccinated against everything? No, but a vaccine against a virus that can be deadly, can be carried/spread asymptomatically, actively pandemic, and spreads easily/aggressively - yes, some people are morally obligated to protect people they come into contact with. Masking, washing hands, distancing, and vaccinations go beyond personal choice for some people.

These arguments come down to personal freedom/autonomy/choice vs greater good of the collective (resistance is futile, lol). Herd immunity is a collective effort. A few have good medical reason preventing them from vaccination and nothing is 100%, so the vaccine will not protect a few people who do get it. Herd immunity protects those 2 groups of people. People who choose not to vaccinate also might be protected by herd immunity, but if enough people choose not to vaccinate, it can screw up the herd immunity and contribute to the continued mutation of the virus.

I'm not for forced vaccinations. But, since we can't trust people to do the right things all the time, we utilize carrots and sticks. I am, in some cases, for required vaccinations and this is one of them. No required vaccination? No problem, you just can't engage in the desired activity until the pandemic is sufficiently over. We collectively choose (and many times we individually choose) to put the group over the individual in lots of areas of our lives.

When I joined the military in 1970, one of the things that happened was the military inoculates all new recruits. You got a lot of shots. I was not asked if I wanted them or not. Once I signed that dotted line I was owned by the government. So, while my nice long hair was buzzed off on the first day of boot camp, I also got some shots. I was not asked for my opinion on either matter.

Possibly from the Pfizer and Moderna mRNA vaccines. A lot less likely from the J & J spike protein vaccine which will likely be approved by this time tomorrow.

She should discuss these issues with her physician and make a decision on which may be best for her. They monitor all patients for 30 minutes after the vaccines are administered just in case an anaphylactic reaction occurs... and I'm sure they have epinephrine shots on hand and/or crash carts in the rare circumstances they do happen.

Required vaccinations to participate in society is nothing new.

You want your kids to go to public schools? Gotta get em vaccinated. Or home school.

Many countries require proof of vaccination before admission. Heck, the USA has historically required a slew of vaccinations and proof of being disease free. Don’t like it? Stay home.

Had to prove I was up to date before I went to college, otherwise no admission to that college. When I did a year abroad, had to get additional vaccinations and tests to prove I didn’t have other diseases, otherwise no study abroad.

This has all been true since before I was born and I would suspect since before you were born. Nothing new here. Same song, different verse. You don’t like it, that’s fine. You can choose alternative forms of participation. What you don’t get to do is choose none of the above.

Yep , people will always want to root each other , just with the technology these days it makes it easier

Mate , if I could give you 1,000 thumbs up I would , I couldn't agree with you more .

18 hours later, my arm is a little bit sore to the touch, just like the first time. I slept well. And at this time I do not feel any negative effects.

I would do it again.

Usually there is an exemption for religious or health reasons. Or in some cases for personal objections.

(My PCP advised for me to avoid getting COVID vaccinated until more data is available since I had a severe adverse reaction to a previous vaccine)

Not really true. There’s a number of reasons that get you exemptions from many of these scenarios, including religious ones. And some of these situations are clearly not ones in which people’s livelihoods are involved and do not affect our right to travel within our own nation.

I’m generally pro vaccine and think that anyone who doesn’t give their kid a small pox or mmr vaccine is grossly irresponsible. I do think people have a right to be tentative in this situation, given the new techniques and the situation. To deprive people of other rights should they not be vaccinated and then Pretend it is their choice is kind of bs.

You may not have been asked for your opinion, but you absolutely had a choice in the matter.

Not really. 50 years ago informed consent in the military wasn't really a thing. I think the choice would have been stick out your arm or disobey orders. If I'm wrong @cottonm4, feel free to correct me.

Have you ever been in the military? I would like to know what choice I had; When I was enlisted I had the choice of following orders or suffering any consequences the C.O. might have decided.

Enlighten me, please.

There's your choice.

You guys are making too much sense now. Its refreshing to read.

I’m assuming you got drafted? Because if you didn’t, you definitely had the chose of enlisting or not enlisting.

As has been already stated, no one will be forced to be vaccinated so no one's "rights" are being taken away. Companies and public event sponsors also have the right to protect the general public and their customers by requiring certain things which may include proof of a Covid vaccine from customers.

I don't see how that is an infringement on anyone's freedom or rights. No one is entitled to do anything they want or go wherever they want if they are unwilling to adhere to the rules required to attend an event or travel.

If you want to take a wait and see approach to these vaccines, fine. Just don't complain or cry that your Constitutional "rights" are being violated if come fall you are unable to attend a concert or football game.

What rights are people being deprived of? The right to see a football game in person?? The right to fly on American Airlines? No one is suggesting you would be restricted from leaving your home or working or traveling in your car if you choose to not be vaccinated.

Let’s be real about what things really are rights and what things aren’t.

In the US you have the right to not be vaccinated. However, if you CHOOSE to not be vaccinated, you do NOT have the right to full access to any public gathering where you may put others at risk of infection and/or death.

I do think there is a decent chance that proof of immunity to COVID will be required prior to airline travel or large public gatherings for the next few years. Most airlines already require a negative COVID test 48 hours prior to international travel. You already are restricted from entering some countries because the US COVID response has been so abysmal.

Airline travel, concerts and going to a Steelers game aren’t rights, they are privileges.

You have the freedom to think it’s bs. No disagreement there.

But in my opinion to pretend this is a new situation with this disease is kind of bs.

Edit: and as an aside, my comments were absolutely true for my personal experience. Study abroad country wouldn’t let you in unless you were vaccinated. College wouldn’t send you unless you had additional vaccinations. Period. No exceptions. There was only a very limited type of exemptions from vaccination(ie severe allergic reaction) that the college would accept for general enrollment. You had a problem with that? Enroll elsewhere. Homeschooling WAS the solution to a religious exemption for my public school. It was actually one of the few reasons you could give to even be allowed to homeschool. That or pay for the private school.

No. I did not get drafted. However, 6 months later when they were drawing the draft lottery, my number was 68 so I would have been drafted had I not enlisted.

Not entirely relevant to this post but there is no such thing as the right to drive. Obtaining a driver’s is a privilege that can be earned by taking and passing the required driving tests.

And if the state does not like you then you get to walk.

All I hear and read are mutations. Shouldn't we be talking about that?; I feel like our past Prime Minister , Jean Cretian (known for asking about the elephant in the room)

Moderna has been updated. I’m not sure of Pfizer needing to be updated. J&J is good also for variants and 100% effective at preventing deaths and hospitalization.

All viruses mutate over time. Coronaviruses historically have tended to mutate into less virulent (i.e. less severe disease causing) forms. Of the 7 known coronaviruses, 4 of them cause common colds. Many feel that COVID-19 will eventually mutate into this less virulent form although that may take years or even decades to happen.

The real issue with COVID mutations is whether our current vaccines will protect against them. In both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines it is my understanding that the manufacturers believe that their vaccines will be effective against the new strains because of how they were designed. It is certainly possible that a "booster shot" will be released to help with this coverage. I believe Moderna is already working on one but don't quote me on that.

Overall I don't expect that the new strains will cause much of an issue in those countries where vaccine will be widely available over the next 3-4 months. They may cause more issues in the third world where vaccine may take years to be distributed, if at all.

Just my $.02.

That's a strong statement - 100(%).

Last night, about 30 hours after I got my 2nd dose, I started getting the chills and my arm was a little more sore. And I was tired. I took some ibuprofen, and fell asleep.

This morning, I feel good. The arm is a little tender. Other than that, I have a lot of things to do today.

Let’s be clear—I’m playing devils advocate to some degree. It’s just this idea that it will be a choice is truly disingenuous.

First of all, there are millions of kids in colleges and public schools without immunizations. Schools unfortunately back off once someone raises religious or medical concerns. Happens all the time, which is why it’s a problem with measles.

And you don’t have a problem with required vaccines for air travel?—then where do you draw the line. It will extend to trains, commuter trains, buses, etc. It will impinge on individual’s abilities to work.

And maybe you don’t have a right to attend a football game, but do you have a right to enter public buildings? What about govt owned conventions centers, town halls, hospitals? What if you work for a federal or state agency? A lot people will not have a choice and will be coerced into taking the vaccine, so don’t pretend it’s really a choice.

Of course it is a choice. You have a choice to not get vaccinated. That might mean you have to find another job or not be able to ride the train or enter a public building or fly on an airplane, but that's the consequence of your choice.

You also have a choice to go to work drunk every day. The consequence of that choice is that you will likely get fired.

You have a choice to not pay your taxes. The consequence of that choice is that the IRS will come after you and you might go to jail.

Don't pretend it's an infringement on your rights that your choices have consequences. Your right to choose to not vaccinate yourself may end up meaning you are restricted from entering certain areas or events where you might cause an infectious risk to others. It's pretty simple. You don't have a right to endanger others with your choices.

The Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the right to travel is an unenumerated right. Note it does NOT say you get your choice of how to travel. If you are restricted from flying on an airplane, bus or train because you pose a public health risk then you can always get in your car and drive.

I think there has been a gross misuse of the word "right" in the US populace for some time now. People think that having a right to do something means there can be no consequences to that choice. It simply isn't true.

I wonder what the guarantee is? Limited to what you paid for the vaccine dose or?

Which current mutation is the most dangerous to us?

You pay nothing for the vaccine.
I also don't think the vaccine makers are guaranteeing anything either. J&J merely said something like the trial participants did not have a single case where they were hospitalized or have severe disease.

"social media opinion-itis" is pretty dangerous.

You've been doing that for months and it's added nothing to the conversation around here. Get a vaccine or don't, and live with the consequences.

I got my first shot yesterday. My arm was killing me till this morning, feels better now. Can't wait to go visit my folks down in Florida in April.

I disagree. It's a lot more likely businesses like airlines and venues require proof of vaccine, they have more money to lose through loss of business and lawsuits if an outbreak is traced back to them. Government and public services are some of the largest advocates for access, equity, diversity and inclusion.

I'm still confused on this. To my admittedly limited knowledge, after the vaccine you go about life just as you did before: mask, 6 feet, etc.

Nobody actually knows if transmission will be halted, and the vaccines have been verified only by the companies producing them, so, I'm not exactly sold on their numbers.

J&J seems to be the only one I'd trust right now. They're like "It kinda works, a little more than half the time, but nobody's died or needed a hospitalization, that we know of."

I don't know, hopefully this will just keep mutating closer to a cold.

I hope everyone gets to see and hug their families soon.

I never stopped.