https://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1217043229427761152

How can you tell when it is time to remove the tube and let the patients start breathing own their own?

It isnt either or. No one is denying there are other issues. There always are.
How one handles bankruptcy, financial loss, family issues. And yes, they have increased. But perhaps there might not be much of a society, if we don't fight this virus. We have seen viruses destroy cultures and societies killing 90%, or even 30% to 50%. Some pandemics can last 30 to 50 years, without action. Others seem minor, and destroy lives 40 to 50 years later, when ones immune system is weakened.
So the answer isn't simply let it roll across the planet, nor might it be lockdowns.
But if we want it to return to " normal", we all have to participate.
Denying its existence, wishing it away, doesn't work. If you have a better solution, please share. Back it up. Look at History.
Read about viruses. If you assume Science and medicine is wrong, without learning, your porragative.
Sharing the other issues as you have is good, but the enemy is the virus, not doctors, and not officials that hear with an open mind.
My 2 cents, and if you wish to talk about opiates, I'm a prescription user for over 12 years, and be happy to cover that too.

We do an extubation trial called a CPAP trial. Basically we wake the patient up and set the ventilator so that all it is doing is overcoming the extra work of breathing though all the tubing. Essentially putting the same workload on the lungs and diaphragm as if there was no ventilator. We let the patient breathe like that for a few hours and check their oxygen levels, CO2 levels, etc. If they’re awake and their numbers look good after that trial we can be reasonably confident that they will be ok off the ventilator.

As long as there are Doubting Thomas's on mask wearing, distancing, and now vaccines, we will all suffer longer than needed. Imagine if everyone were actually on the same page? I'd like to see a computer figure out scenarios like that - how much shorter this would be and how many fewer deaths.

Covid-19 deaths in the US in 2019: 0
Covid-19 deaths in the US in from March 2020 to present: 400,000+

Overdoses in 2019: 72000
Overdoses in 2020 (with your 18% increase): 84960

Your comparison of overdose deaths to Covid-19 falls apart with 5 seconds of critical thinking...or at least it does to my Seattle brain. Maybe they interpret things differently in Calgary.

We have a real live example of what can happen in a large state (6.5m) in Australia when people follow the "rules" you've outlined.

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True. But if we all thought the same, acted the same, and always did what we were told, we'd basically be robots. The United States is a very heterogenous society made up of lot's of different cultures, values, traditions, histories, and attitudes. Historically as a nation, we've had a strong independent spirit, which has at times been a blessing, and at other times, such as now, been something of a curse. As a society, we value diversity, or at least that's the direction we're heading.

That independent spirit is also infused into our constitution, and into our state and local laws. This means that legally, our governments don't necessarily have the same ability to restrict people's movements and actions, the way the governments of other countries can. Such as in places like Europe, Asia, or Australia. We also have a very free press, and very free speech. People can basically say and think whatever they want, even it's dumb or patently false. This has benefits and costs.

As an example of cultural and country differences, in China the government can basically do whatever they want, without restriction and without moral or ethical considerations, and they can enforce lockdowns at the end of a rifle. We can't do that here. As another example, in Japan, as a culture, they are very diligent about following the rules, and listening to their government officials. This is great during a pandemic, as everyone will wear a mask when told to. But one of the reasons that the Japanese are like this, is that they have a monoculture, almost completely lacking in ethnic and cultural diversity. And this lack of diversity is not simply an accident, but a direct result of historically isolationist, xenophobic, and racist/imperialist policies and ideologies extending from the 17th century through until the end of WWII.

So I mean, it's not an accident or happenstance that some countries are much better at handling pandemics than others. The countries that are handling the pandemic better than the US, may also be worse than us in other ways or worse than us at handling other types of situations. Be they from ethical and ideological standpoints, or from the ability of the people of their countries to posses independence and freedom of thought.

So I mean it's all pros and cons, and swings and roundabouts. It also of course makes a huge difference how our government leaders handle things, and the messaging that comes from our national leaders. That's a big, big, factor. Because as a society, we have in past all gotten together on the same page about serious issues and made big sacrifices. But we did so with strong leadership that explained why it was important for us to do so.

Things to think about.

Not sure if you've been to Aus but we, in many ways are like the US. We can demonstrate and call the current government a pack of c**** without risk of jail. I think we on the whole went along with the state government, despite many of us disagreeing with the attitide that it would be for the greater good of the community. And we have a gun ban for high powered firearms after some massive # of deaths.
The negative economic recpercussions of covid is linked to the number of deaths, not the loss of freedom that the community and busineses will lose when in lockdown, which supports a harder lockdown for less negative economic consequences to the community. The Gov here was very generous with helping businesses and individuals and ensured no one was left out. We'll have a massive debt for decades but has been worth it looking at the rest of the world dying on mass. And...it's far off finishing.

Why are you telling this to me? I was there for the whole thing. Did you mean to reply to mcluvin?

Yes, my apologies.

We've had some tennis players here for the Australian Open complaining about being quarantined for 2 weeks because they arrived on planes with infected people .
When they eventually leave their hotels , they will be in a place where there is no community covid . This isn't because of Aboriginal Black Magic , it's because of the quarantine rules and other common sense measures that are in place .

Maybe you could educate me a bit. I think I heard that in Australia there were periods of time where people were not allowed to enter or leave particular states or regions due to Covid restrictions. Is this true? Because I don't think that in America the govt. can legally restrict interstate travel in that way.

Although, I do seem to recall Florida putting some restrictions in place where visitors from hotspots had to quarantine. But I'm not sure how strictly enforced the policy was, or if there was actually any follow through.

I've often thought that restricting non-commercial interstate travel would help slow the Covid spread in the US. Especially since some of our states are doing a lot better with their numbers than others. But good luck enforcing that or getting people to comply.

My experience re Vaccine.
Today I had phone meetings with all my primary care providers.
Dentist, Rheumatologist, G.P., Surgeon Osteo.
This is my yearly checkup which was done via phone due to the beer virus/ government not allowing in person visits unless absolutely necessary.
I asked them wether I should receive the COVID vaccine as I do the cold/flu shot every year. I am NOT an anti vaccine freak.
All advised me that it is way too early in the process to safely advise me.
They all shared the same concerns of how rushed it was and the shocking side effects it has produced in some, how long it lasts, how long it is effective and why some react and some don't. Also stating that they too would not take even if strongly advised by their peers until satisfactory reports prove the effectiveness.
In saying this though, here in Western Australia we are geologically lucky by being remote and having enforced border closures early on in the epidemic.
In fact life is fairly normal apart from advising government where you are via mobile app all the time.
Don't be pushed into having the so called vaccine, ask your care givers what is right for you.
You SHOULD have a choice and base it upon your situation.

You can't trust everything you read.

Yes apparently we became a federation in 1901, but you wouldn't know it from the power a state leader has We had states that prevented people from entering if they are from a "red" zone, much like parts of Europe now. They have power over their entire state, beyond the commonwealth of Aus, the elected Gov.
Commercial vehicles could travel freely as could anyone with legimitate reasons. No reason, $1600 fine. We don't have so many nutters cruising around with Ak47s so that minimises the risk I guess. Not a knock on your firearm laws but we're different in that regard.
TBH it was shit being in lockdown for 3 months, however open the digital paper to any European country and take a look at the carnage this thing is weilding, or your country perhaps.

We are pretty much back to normal

Well if that is not a loaded statement.

I am reminding that not everything you read (wherever) is automatically true.

Which is a bit different. I'd be concerned for you if you whacked a jokular "sarcasam" after that one ... :3

There is plenty of truth to be found on "the internet", and in the realms of reality.

Any thoughts on the deaths in Norway after vaccines?

I have several friends and acquaintances who are general practitioner, surgean or other doctor: all of them want to take the vaccine as soon as possible. Of course not everything is known yet, but it has been tested a lot.

Not all vaccines have been approved yet in the EU, like the Astrazeneca/Oxford one, that's been approved in the UK. It'll probably be approved here as well soon, but it does show it's not like any vaccine that we don't know enough about will get approval: if there are doubts, or there's lack of information, more information needs to be had for it to be approved (or not). So it's not like 'the more the better, to have as many vaccines available as possible, no matter what information we do or don't have'.

I read a few articles this morning. Likely adverse reactions due to frailty. Second thoughts now about vaccines to very sick elderly.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2021-01-18/norway-finds-no-direct-link-between-elderly-deaths-and-vaccine

Looks like they vaccinated people who were already dying of cancer and other illnesses. The government of Norway has vaccinated all 46,000 nursing home residents so the overall incidence is less than 1 in 1000 vaccinated in these kinds of nursing home settings with severely ill patients.

Patients who are already very frail or terminally ill would be more likely to be “tipped over” by side effects from the vaccine vs a healthier patient. Also, frail old people in nursing homes die every day from various causes. Unless we see a higher death rate in the days or weeks after vaccination there may not even be a causal relationship. It probably makes sense to discuss whether we should be vaccinating someone who is already terminal and expected to die soon, I’m not sure I would recommend vaccination in that population myself but the government of Norway decided to take this step.

Here’s a quote from the article:

““It is important to remember that about 45 people die every day in nursing homes in Norway, so it is not a given that this represents any excess mortality or that there is a causal connection,” Camilla Stoltenberg, head of the Norwegian Institute of Public Health, said at a press conference on Monday.“

It is important to note that these vaccines are being given worldwide. If there was a significant trend you would be seeing lots of deaths in elderly patients in multiple countries. We aren’t seeing that.

Bottom line I think this was a by product of giving a vaccine to patients who were already so frail they probably were going to die in the coming days or weeks anyway and likely shouldn’t have been vaccinated in the first place.

I don’t know of a single physician I know who is not getting vaccinated ASAP. Not one.

Interesting that of the hundreds of doctors I know here in Fort Worth, Texas not one of them is not getting the vaccine or advising patients to not get it yet somehow ALL of OldSkool’s Western Australian medical team is telling him to not get it. Selection bias???

Here is a pretty good article on it. Seems to be related to the frailty of the recipient and maybe some coincidental deaths as well. A tough decision in that population. https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer-deaths-norway-intl/index.html

This is a legit question and a valid 1 at that but would this not be ruled “death by vaccine”? if somebody has terminal cancer and dies by covid its ruled a covid death no?

You live on Gilligans Island. It wouldn’t surprise me if your Dentist, GP, rheumatologist, and osteo surgeon were all the same guy.

An attempt to track the various covid variants globally over time:

https://nextstrain.org/ncov/global

If you could show that the patient’s death was immediately and clearly caused by a vaccine reaction then yes, it would be considered a death due to allergic reaction or a reaction to a vaccine. “Death by vaccine” isn’t a medical diagnosis.

To answer your second question (although once again I have already answered this question several times in this thread that you say you have read):

Cause of death on a death certificate is the IMMEDIATE cause of death. Other diseases that contribute to the death are listed in a separate section of the death certificate. So, if a patient has terminal cancer and gets COVID and then dies as a result of COVID then yes, the cause of death is COVID and the cancer would be listed as a contributing cause of death.

Anyone want to wager as to whether I’ll have to answer this question yet again in the next three months?

This isn’t unique to COVID. People who die from cancer don’t usually have cancer as their immediate cause of death. Their immediate cause is usually pneumonia or sepsis or hemorrhage, etc. If you have cancer and have a heart attack and die, you died of a heart attack. If you have cancer and get pneumonia and die, you died of pneumonia. The cancer may have made you more susceptible to these things and less likely to survive them but it wasn’t the immediate cause of death as your doctor fills out the death certificate.

Public health agencies sift through the death certificates and decide which public health category different deaths fall into for population statistical purposes after the fact. So, a death might be categorized as a cancer related death even though the death certificate says pneumonia as the primary cause and cancer as a secondary cause.

You mean this guy?

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Great Link! Thanks!

LOL - I think the professor would be for the vaccine - a true man of science!

I've been reading up on all the new and different more highly contagious variants that have showed up over the last few weeks starting in Great Britain. Has anybody else considered it might be more than a coincidence that this is happening as all these new and different vaccines are rolling out?

Not saying they created these variants in a laboratory, but the virus itself inside the bodies of some that received them mutating because of it's will to survive and the new threats against it. There have already been some that said they got the first dose and then got the virus anyway.

And not saying it is true by any stretch of the imagination because they can mutate anyway and for now there is no way to prove it, but it's timing does seem a little odd. It would however be a sad state of affairs if mankind's effort to control whatever nature's plan is this time around has the opposite effect. Goes back to the fact that there has never been a successful coronavirus vaccine and this is new science where the longterm effects are still an unknown.

Food for thought. That is all.

Well we’re not all doctors on here so my apologies for not having the proper medical phrases, I see “death by covid” or “covid death” all the time. They better start getting it right I guess. So if cancer causes the heartattack its still ruled cause of death is heartattack?

Dude, you being rude again. I have Rheumatoid Arthritis and take immune suppressants.
What would you recommend based on MY situation? No need to answer as you blanket diagnose.
You better read MY post again.

Regarding vaccine deaths, the issue is- is it a TEAE (treatment emergent adverse event) or TRAE (treatment related AE)? I suspect the former, so not related to the vaccine. People die all the time, sadly, especially old at risk folks (who are the first to receive the vaccine). With tens of millions of people (and counting) having received the vaccine, safety signals should have been detected by now. Obviously long-term risks not yet, but e.g. autism and MMR was discredited (Wakefield was struck off and his Lancet paper redacted), even though autism is incorrectly stated as one potential 'concern'.

That is just being a jerk. Have a good look at yourself and ask was it worth typing?

Everyone knows the Professor doesn't do dentistry.

Ah, well perhaps in the future you might consider stating that you have a specific immune condition that made your doctors advise you to wait instead of stating how they all were concerned about how it was rushed and the side effects, etc. See, that makes it more like their thinking was in line with your own personal world view about COVID instead of making a decision for a specific patient based on their personal medical problems.

And I wasn't being rude. You stating I "blanket diagnose" is being rude though.

Also, interesting that you also don't mention the main point of my post which was that you said every one of your doctors "stating that they too would not take even if strongly advised by their peers until satisfactory reports prove the effectiveness."

I don't know of a single doctor I know out of hundreds that think this way. Again, interesting that every one of your doctors do. Strange coincidence?

Lastly, mRNA vaccines are not contraindicated in immunocompromised patients like someone with who takes immunosuppressant medications. Just in case other folks out there have immunocompromised conditions and are wondering.

He’s not being rude, he’s a doctor on the internet, have you not read EVERY SINGLE post he’s made??? you’re not worthy to ask him questions!!! you damn filthy ape!!!

By your words....”IMMEDIATE cause of death” covid causes the whatever that killed them, means it’s the WHATEVER that killed them!! not fuckin covid....how many of these skewed numbers are covid related but not actually covid deaths??

Haha!
Good one Gilligan. The dentistry line made me laugh for the first time today.

How dare you sir? Everyone knows that in Season 2, episode 10 ("Hi Fi Gilligan") Gilligan's teeth got knocked around and a filling started receiving radio transmissions. The Professor was able to use the transmission to receive an important weather report that saved them all. Sort of like dentistry.

That's not enough? Well how about Season 3 episode 29 - "Bang Bang Bang" - A mysterious crate of malleable plastic washes ashore and they make stuff out it - including the Professor making fillings for Gilligan's teeth? Luckily saliva loosened them and he safely sneezed them out. The Professor then replaced them with copper. Definitely dentistry.

Also - I re-read your post. You wrote it like you had 4 different doctors that were just against the vaccine bc of the vaccine safety in general. No clues that it had to do with just their concern for you. If anything your post underscores the need for all who can take the vaccine safely, should take it. Herd immunity protects people like you who have a legit health reason for not taking it.

Read the post again and look at the health care providers I had stated, I thought it was obvious I had " conditions "
All your post allude to say you MUST take the shot.
I am bringing clarity of choice and advise people to ask the question to the conversation, where you disregard others contrary to your opinion and I say everyone is different and must be treated as such.
Whats wrong with waiting and seeing the efficacy of a rushed solution? that s right NONE.
No coincidence mate that they advised this, why would they suggest to appease your assumed way I think?
Again let people ask the question based on their own situation and not get medical advise from a Pinball forum.
Forcing people to take the shot is just DANGEROUS.
Maybe you like the podium and feel accomplished.

This is how these things start. Someone sees a temporal correlation and suddenly .....
It isn't food for thought.
It is fuel for conspiracy ....
But hey ...all opinions are equal these days.

Or like many others that seem to be experts of everything including handing out free advice, he's just not very good at practicing it.

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