No more health screening of international travelers:
(Topic ID: 264520)
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Melbourne
Quoted from fosaisu:Your variables in Covid spread are going to be the number of infected that attend the event, duration of the event, density of the crowd, mask usage, and indoor/outdoor activities. The demographics of the crowd will probably also affect how bad the outcome looks (you might have the same transmission rate but if there are a bunch of old men in the crowd, you're going to get more "detects" when they show up at the hospital). Covid doesn't care if you were peacefully protesting against social injustice, enduring a Smashmouth concert with your motorcycle bros, or looting a Burger King.
So are they just as Selfish?
Quoted from RTR:Do you really think the risk is equivalent?
If I had to choose between spending an hour outside with mask at a BLM protest vs inside a Sturgis bar without a mask on Day 9 of the rally - I would think the protest held less risk.
So are the BLM people that riot just as Selfish?
Quoted from RTR:This is how science works. Scientists study and publish and then other scientists (not CNN, Fox, SD Dept of Health and Tourism, or Pinsiders) critique the method and results.
"Under the guise of academic research, this report is nothing short of an attack on those who exercised their personal freedom to attend Sturgis,” Noem said in the statement. "Predictably, some in the media breathlessly report on this non-peer reviewed model, built on incredibly faulty assumptions that do not reflect the actual facts and data here in South Dakota."
And this:
South Dakota Secretary of Health Kim Malsam-Rysdon disagreed with the methodology of the study Tuesday, questioning the link between cellphone data and cases. She and Clayton also noted that the research paper is not peer-reviewed at this point.
I'm not saying this is true or not, just referencing the article.
I think this is one of our major problems today, none of us are truly certain of the facts as "news" too often seems an opinion piece or slant. We see an article and run with it. I'm guilty as well. I didn't double check any of these things.
Quoted from gweempose:I think the Sturgis Rally was just about the stupidest thing possible in the middle of a pandemic, but even I have a hard time buying the numbers in that report.
Same here, and they make no mention of the protesters at all. Go figure.
Quoted from razorsedge:There you go with your "facts" again Lol
A few hundred or even thousand of reality in the hand, is worth 250,000 in the bush, hey. "That's a fact", well for some types of researchers it might be anyway. Oh hang on, the other +200,000 must be asymptomatic! .... derr, of course!. Sorry
Keep pushing your subjective info posts there matey. Good for you!.
Many epidemiological "facts" are based on politics... alot of what we get certainly is, anyway. That is more factual than your misguided "250k fact" emotional based post comment that I quoted.
Yeah, you’re not making much sense.
If you want to debate the statistical methods used or the modeling criteria then feel free.
First of all, I did not say that the 250k case number was fact. That’s an estimate based on their statistical model which took into account the excess cases noted in the counties where these bikers were and where they traveled to.
What I said was that putting 400k unmasked bikers in a confined area for several days and then spreading them across the country was the pinnacle of stupidity and THAT is an epidemiological fact.
If you’d like to explain why you think the Sturgis rally was a good idea and not responsible for excess COVID cases, health care costs and death please do so. So far you’ve just spewed out some nonsense that doesn’t refute anything.
Quoted from noob-a-tron:So are they just as Selfish?
Was it a selfishness study or a Covid transmission study?
Is this China virus really that bad as the percentage of infected that die as a DIRECT result of it seems very very low.
I understand it created complications with underlying health issues, but surely those that are compromised take extra care, yes I am one of them. The world has stopped long enough IMO.
Anyone else remember right before the pandemic? That huge opioid crisis across the whole country and no one trusted doctors and were pissed at them for pushing whatever drug their sponsoring pharmaceutical company lined their pockets with.
Good thing about COVID i guess is it appears everyone forgot that.
Kitchener, ON
Quoted from Pinballs:Anyone noticed how China is the winner in all this...? Fancy that. It has literally done better in terms of economic growth and lowest number of deaths than anywhere else in the world. And the Western powers are the worst affected. Again, fancy that.
That’s assuming that China is accurately reporting their case numbers.
Quoted from oldskool1969:Is this China virus really that bad as the percentage of infected that die as a DIRECT result of it seems very very low
I don’t think we will ever see a vaccine, it’s virtually impossible to reach heard immunity because antibodies don’t last long enough after infection. I believe that covid will become endemic and mutate into a flu like virus that kills Thousands every year. I believe we’re are on track to end this by thinning the heard. I mean that in the next couple years, everyone that is severely affected by this will die.
How fast do you want them to die? If we are on top of this then maybe out medics system will be able to save some of them along the way
How have previous pandemics ended? How will this end? It will end in 1 of 2 ways, either socially or medically.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:How have previous pandemics ended? How will this end? It will end in 1 of 2 ways, either socially or medically.
Or naturally.
One day mankind might stop acting like we're not infinately inferior to nature, accept it, and stop trying to fight it all the time.
Death is part of life. Get a grip people.
If unhealthy had not grown over the decades to become such a large proportion of the population, obviously the impact of this super cold would have been less. Maybe even a non event.
Keeping it from spreading is going to reduce any potential natural resistance (which has been recorded as a thing now aparently for the nay-sayers) for suppresion obsessed countries, and just make things worse or more severity lateron. Undermining natural "fall-back" protection is going to turn out a bad idea imho. That's a plus for USA too I guess with the relatively high proportion having already been infected (including presumably Mostly asymptomatic infected, now even more resistant).
In some places the actions against the disease seem to be much more damaging overall, than the disease itself.
"Chyna virus" .... just stinks of "W.M.D." all over again, and I suppose probably same reasons. 
Quoted from oldskool1969:Is this China virus really that bad as the percentage of infected that die as a DIRECT result of it seems very very low.
I understand it created complications with underlying health issues, but surely those that are compromised take extra care, yes I am one of them. The world has stopped long enough IMO.
You are using loaded words there. Racist, widely debunked, derided, Qanon conspiracy bullshit.
Assuming you did not intend this then to answer your question, yes this virus really is that bad. In the states it will be the third highest cause of death this year at a minimum. It also maims too. We still have no clue how badly or how permanently yet.
Quoted from Oaken:You are using loaded words there. Racist,
You cant be serious? This is the China virus period. Their irresponsibility has killed many people and ruined everyones way of life, F them!
Quoted from RonSS:I think this is one of our major problems today, none of us are truly certain of the facts as "news" too often seems an opinion piece or slant. We see an article and run with it. I'm guilty as well. I didn't double check any of these things.
Confirmation bias is real. I’m most happy these days when my TV is off.
Quoted from Who-Dey:Same here, and they make no mention of the protesters at all. Go figure.
Protestors wore masks.
Franklin, TN
Quoted from Trogdor:Interesting how this was mentioned in the study and why we have to suspect the motives of the study. As we have seen in Milwaukee and Kenosha, BLM protests were many hours over many days with people coming from several areas that also involved large amounts of individuals from an ethnicity considered at a higher risk. Why did the study basically write off the protesters but internationally shame a bunch of bikers? It was a sad day for science, like the Al Gore days of climatology.
There was another study done by some conservative think tank saying their data was showing a direct correlation between harsh lockdowns and huge spikes when relaxed. Didn’t get much media- seems like some more cherry picked data.
We can’t even make bikers wear helmets in WI, but they have to wear masks? Crashing at over 60mph, maybe you don’t want any chance of survival. Their safety might not affect my survival, but it does add considerably to our shared healthcare burden. If a helmet infringes on individual liberties, how do you enforce a mask? They don’t have to wear helmets, but I have to endure their obnoxiously tuned exhausts? Where are my freedoms? Anybody follow the twitter storm with that Olympic volleyballer Walsh-Trainer or something? She is surprisingly eloquent, I’ve known a lot of volleyballers. I don’t agree with her, but I imagine she is only saying what possibly millions of others are feeling. This is a long haul..
I am sure the protests increased infections as well - masks or no masks - especially with the tear gassing and what not. I don't think anyone has made the claim it is innocuous.
Sturgis was another order of risk though and a superb opportunity for study. No masks, indoor and outdoor crowds with virtually no regard for corona. Just one location with 400,000 people with only 7,000 locals (none of the protests had anywhere close to this number and way more locals) and cell phone data easier to extract and utilize.
Sometimes there isn't a conspiracy and a banana is just a banana.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:How have previous pandemics ended? How will this end? It will end in 1 of 2 ways, either socially or medically.
If you have access to ST:TNG you should watch season 1 episode 21 it doesn’t follow the same premise as what we have going on now but is a good perspective and somewhat relatable to the video.
So while we are spending 2 pages laughably trying to compare mask-wearing outdoor protestors engaging in a once-in-a-generation social movement to 1,500 maskless fat pleasure seekers hanging out inside a giant music club...
Are we just going to pretend that everybody here parroting "it's just the flu!" since February weren't happily gobbling up and mindlessly repeating lies and misinformation from people they trusted? It's been proven.
Quoted from oldskool1969:Is this China virus really that bad as the percentage of infected that die as a DIRECT result of it seems very very low.
No, no where close!
I understand it created complications with underlying health issues, but surely those that are compromised take extra care, yes I am one of them. The world has stopped long enough IMO.
Quoted from jwilson:Protestors wore masks.
Not all of the " peacefull protestors" wore masks!
Quoted from noob-a-tron:So are the BLM people that riot just as Selfish?
Why are you changing the argument from measuring the relative Covid risk of unmasked indoor activities vs masked outdoor activities to measuring 'selfishness'?
Apparently children don't spread the virus.
“Can you ensure Dr. Fauci indicates masks are for the teachers in schools. Not for children,” Alexander wrote. “There is no data, none, zero, across the entire world, that shows children especially young children, spread this virus to other children, or to adults or to their teachers. None. And if it did occur, the risk is essentially zero,” he continued — adding without evidence that children take influenza home, but not the coronavirus.
Emails show HHS official trying to muzzle Fauci
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/09/09/emails-show-hhs-muzzle-fauci-410861
Quoted from fosaisu:Was it a selfishness study or a Covid transmission study?
When one argument is lost, no problem, just start another!!
Quoted from Who-Dey:You cant be serious? This is the China virus period. Their irresponsibility has killed many people and ruined everyones way of life, F them!
Enough of that talk, thanks.
Quoted from oldskool1969:Is this China virus really that bad as the percentage of infected that die as a DIRECT result of it seems very very low.
I understand it created complications with underlying health issues, but surely those that are compromised take extra care, yes I am one of them. The world has stopped long enough IMO.
Here are a couple articles on the heart damage covid-19 can cause. As PantherCityPins has pointed out, it is not unusual for some infections to cause temporary mycarditis. The concern with covid-19 is the extent of the damage and whether it is temporary or permanent.
This one is a bit alarmist, but is recent and does have some good summary as well:
https://news.yahoo.com/post-covid-heart-damage-alarms-researchers-there-was-a-black-hole-in-infected-cells-172015067.html
Penn State doctor is seeing a good portion of athletes with evidence of damage. Still concerning, but walking back some of the alarmist rhetoric. :
https://6abc.com/coronavirus-heart-damage-athletes-penn-state-covid-19/6408854/
More in depth:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/
Quoted from Oaken:Here are a couple articles on the heart damage covid-19 can cause. As pinball_gizzard has pointed out, it is not unusual for some infections to cause temporary mycarditis. The concern with covid-19 is the extent of the damage and whether it is temporary or permanent.
This one is a bit alarmist, but is recent and does have some good summary as well:
https://news.yahoo.com/post-covid-heart-damage-alarms-researchers-there-was-a-black-hole-in-infected-cells-172015067.html
Penn State doctor is seeing a good portion of athletes with evidence of damage. Still concerning, but walking back some of the alarmist rhetoric. :
https://6abc.com/coronavirus-heart-damage-athletes-penn-state-covid-19/6408854/
More in depth:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/covid-19-can-wreck-your-heart-even-if-you-havent-had-any-symptoms/
What do you suggest we do? All a person can do is try to protect themselves from this which in the end probably wont matter anyways because unless you live like a total hermit you will eventually most likely get this virus.
Today for whatever reason I saw more people ignoring the mask rules than I ever have. I wanted to yell at them and tell them how F'ing stupid they are but I really didnt feel like getting in a fight today. I wish the stores would enforce this but they wont.
Quoted from Pinballs:Anyone noticed how China is the winner in all this...? Fancy that. It has literally done better in terms of economic growth and lowest number of deaths than anywhere else in the world. And the Western powers are the worst affected. Again, fancy that.
They’re making billions, if not trillions. They’re selling tests that provide dubious results, often ineffective masks and ppe, are buying distressed high tech and strategic businesses all over Europe and the US, US mineral and oil claims, etc.
And everyone keeps turning a blind eye as if it’s impolite to point this out.
Quoted from Who-Dey:What do you suggest we do? All a person can do is try to protect themselves from this which in the end probably wont matter anyways because unless you live like a total hermit you will eventually most likely get this virus.
Today for whatever reason I saw more people ignoring the mask rules than I ever have. I wanted to yell at them and tell them how F'ing stupid they are but I really didnt feel like getting in a fight today. I wish the stores would enforce this but they wont.
They do here.
Quoted from RTR:Why are you changing the argument from measuring the relative Covid risk of unmasked indoor activities vs masked outdoor activities to measuring 'selfishness'?
You changed it i asked if the BLM people were just as selfish. Stop being a spin doctor.
Quoted from RTR:I am sure the protests increased infections as well - masks or no masks - especially with the tear gassing and what not. I don't think anyone has made the claim it is innocuous.
Sturgis was another order of risk though and a superb opportunity for study. No masks, indoor and outdoor crowds with virtually no regard for corona. Just one location with 400,000 people with only 7,000 locals (none of the protests had anywhere close to this number and way more locals) and cell phone data easier to extract and utilize.
Sometimes there isn't a conspiracy and a banana is just a banana.
So if a banana is not a banana? Did you read the study? Again, the STUDY used the BLM protests as an example of an innocuous public meeting. Milwaukee had days of people driving around in cars for protests(nothing says outrage more then driving around, honking your horn) and we are assuming they all quarantine together, right? Didn’t Mayor DeBlasio order tracers not to ask people if they attended a protest? I wonder if they did use these crap analytics for the protests, what numbers would they get? Yes, there were way more then 400k protesters around country. Sturgis was a superb opportunity for study and these jokers botched it and it was picked up all over. Assuming it actually was 400k(SD used traffic data which doesn’t specify if novel rider) and they all behaved exactly the same, is not science. If it was not intended to be accurate, what were their intentions?
As U Madison and U of I Champagne are locking down, which made less sense? Bikers or university administrators? 1000 cases at Madtown in about two weeks. UI was on CNBC a couple weeks ago with an amazing all in-house testing protocol and all was going well until nobody enforced quarantine of positive students! And anybody arguing Sturgis was frivolous and UMadtown are people looking to improve themselves has not gone down Langdon St. I get it- college kids should be at school and this sucks.
Article Tuesday in WSJ states 0.6% death rate for those that get the virus. I wish somebody did an article on how this is computed with 80% asymptomatic.
50 year old friend of mine got it. He rode bike every day and was in excellent shape. Wound up in the hospital for a week and now needs an inhaler to walk 30 feet to his mailbox. Honestly, I don't give as much of a crap about the 0.6 death rate. I DO care about contracting this disease and having the rest of my life severely altered due to unforseen complications.
Quoted from razorsedge:Taking words too literally... can be a cause for misunderstanding, too. Happens Much more than people care to admit.
This is just insane.
People not using words correctly is what causes misunderstanding, being deliberately obtuse or leaving room for interpretation is what causes misunderstanding, being vague leaves room for misunderstanding.
Using words correctly, by knowing what they mean, leads to clarity. Being able to construct a sentence with correct grammar, leads to clarity. Citing resources leads to clarity. Understanding the subject being spoken about, leads to clarity. Standing by your words, and being accountable for them, leads to clarity.
An example of a quote which isn't worth the paper it's written on, anything that starts with "They say...". Who the F are they? Anything that follows "They say" has been used a lot by 'he who shall not be named' amongst others. It's a kop out, a disclaimer, I want to say this for you all to think it was me, and has my weight of authority, but if it turns out to be wrong, or unpopular, I can say I only said "They said". It's like school girls gossiping.
Say what you mean, be clear with what you say, mean what you say. That would leave no room for misinterpretation.
I wonder if some of the anti mask people will begin to wear one now that it has been proven that World leaders lied to the public to down play the severity of the virus. It’s pretty hard to deny the facts now.
The audio tapes tell us the truth
Quoted from Trogdor:So if a banana is not a banana? Did you read the study? Again, the STUDY used the BLM protests as an example of an innocuous public meeting. Milwaukee had days of people driving around in cars for protests(nothing says outrage more then driving around, honking your horn) and we are assuming they all quarantine together, right? Didn’t Mayor DeBlasio order tracers not to ask people if they attended a protest? I wonder if they did use these crap analytics for the protests, what numbers would they get? Yes, there were way more then 400k protesters around country. Sturgis was a superb opportunity for study and these jokers botched it and it was picked up all over. Assuming it actually was 400k(SD used traffic data which doesn’t specify if novel rider) and they all behaved exactly the same, is not science. If it was not intended to be accurate, what were their intentions?
As U Madison and U of I Champagne are locking down, which made less sense? Bikers or university administrators? 1000 cases at Madtown in about two weeks. UI was on CNBC a couple weeks ago with an amazing all in-house testing protocol and all was going well until nobody enforced quarantine of positive students! And anybody arguing Sturgis was frivolous and UMadtown are people looking to improve themselves has not gone down Langdon St. I get it- college kids should be at school and this sucks.
Article Tuesday in WSJ states 0.6% death rate for those that get the virus. I wish somebody did an article on how this is computed with 80% asymptomatic.
I still think the study has value but I agree that after further inspection it warrants some criticism.
0.6% death rate would still be over a million dead for theoretical herd immunity. Here is a table I posted 3 months ago:
Quoted from Oaken:Current CFR is 3.4 FYI. Use 75% infection rate for rough Herd immunity guesstimate.
Even if CFR drops significantly...still ouch. [quoted image]
Estimate from way back in Feb timeframe was 0.5-5.0% which still contributed to the global shutdown decisions. What is truly nasty is the % hospitalized. Back in Jan we knew this can overwhelm local healthcare networks and this still is true today. If there is a large outbreak in your area, the hospitals will be overrun. This is a primary reason for the shutdowns way back when.
Quoted from Who-Dey:What do you suggest we do? All a person can do is try to protect themselves from this which in the end probably wont matter anyways because unless you live like a total hermit you will eventually most likely get this virus.
Today for whatever reason I saw more people ignoring the mask rules than I ever have. I wanted to yell at them and tell them how F'ing stupid they are but I really didnt feel like getting in a fight today. I wish the stores would enforce this but they wont.
Dude was peddling the same ole “no big deal” bullshit we have seen since January.
What do I suggest? How about we all acknowledge the severity of this thing, listen to the freaking scientists, and follow the recommendations instead of vilifying them and going around shouting “fuck China” and “‘Merica wooooo”.
That would be a fantastic start.
I wrote the above early this morning and just now saw this article in my news feed. Their words are more eloquent than mine, but same basic principle.
Quoted from Who-Dey:Today for whatever reason I saw more people ignoring the mask rules than I ever have. I wanted to yell at them and tell them how F'ing stupid they are but I really didnt feel like getting in a fight today. I wish the stores would enforce this but they wont.
It's just not worth commenting on mask wearing. It's just not.
My sister in law stopped at a small local restaurant to pick up her order the other night. When she walked in, none of the workers had masks, although they were all required to in MN. She made some comment about them not having masks. One worker's reply and I quote, "fuck you. Do you want your food or not?"
Her reply and I quote, "no thanks. You can shove it up your ass," and she walked out.
My wife and I have thought about trying that place. We have no desire to now.
Quoted from Who-Dey:Today for whatever reason I saw more people ignoring the mask rules than I ever have. I wanted to yell at them and tell them how F'ing stupid they are but I really didn't feel like getting in a fight today.
A fight could be the least of your problems. You could get stabbed. You could get shot It's just not worth it. Anybody who is stupid enough to ignore the mask laws is not someone you want to risk angering.
Quoted from Oaken:saw this article in my news feed.
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/pandemic-intuition-nightmare-spiral-winter/616204/
Interesting read, I liked this quote:
“In some circles, returning to normal has been valorized as an act of defiance. That’s a reasonable stance when resisting terrorists, who seek to stoke fear, but a dangerous one when fighting a virus, which doesn’t care.”
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