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Franklin, TN
Quoted from Who-Dey:They need refrigerated trucks in New York for all of the shooting victims i heard. They have had to put Covid-19 on the back burner for now.
Glass houses.
https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/new-york-issues-coronavirus-advisory-for-travelers-from-ohio/
1 week later
I want to acquire my immunity from a vaccine instead of someone else's snot. But choosing which one? I might wait and see which line Fauci is standing in before I make my decision.
The Navy shot me up with with a lot vaccines when I was in, never gave it any thought whatsoever. Not that my thoughts would have mattered, lol. It would be a little scary to be in the military today though, as the decision process for which vaccine goes to the military and their families might not be made by the scientists and doctors.
Quoted from Neal_W:not lids, bottoms apparently
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B269AB3C-61AF-4E36-AB86-C49E54483CB3 (resized).jpegQuoted from Who-Dey:Put her in the mail already, Daddy needs a new Elvira pinball machine!
Be careful how you get your corona money. The free paychecks are no problem. The PPP loans might provide stories to tell in the prison thread. Thank you Florida Man!
https://time.com/5872449/florida-man-covid-19-relief-funds-lamborghini-ppp/
Quoted from Oaken:Re: flu
We have relatively good medicine.
We have relatively effective yearly vaccines.
We have residual immunity both at individual and herd levels.
Our hospital systems are sufficient for normal year sickness levels and can generally squeeze through a bad year.
Timing of when you are a spreader is drastically different.
Asymptomatic spread is low.
Even bad flu years do not remotely approach the damage covid does. Both in terms of needing to rent refrigerated morgue trucks and in potentially permanent disability.
That being said, you best believe my wife warns her susceptible patients and caregivers during flu season.
People coming to this thread with a flu argument are not looking for a science lesson. But i applaud your optimism!
Quoted from RonSS:So you are saying no mask for flu, also an airborne contagion? It seems as though you aren't denying effectiveness, but rather skirting an issue. Notice how I said "it seems"? I say that because I don't truly know your intentions. You however may be omniscient?
Look, I've read the CDC and Mayo Clinic reports since my last few posts. Seems as though they state some effectiveness, yet don't recommend unless you are in medical services. A bit contradictory I think, but again, what do I know? That's why I ask questions.
No place have I stated don't wear a mask.
The consensus behind mask effectiveness isn't mixed, unless one wishes it to be. In your search for truth, perhaps someone who wants this to be up in the air may have blown smoke in your direction, leaving your opinion subject to the winds.
Don't be led astray by conspiracists or doubters. Unmasking a mask doubter/denier is pretty easy, just see if they hit the talking points:
1 - Flu argument - if they are so effective, then why don't we wear them for blah blah, generally these people just pretend like they don't understand risk assessment.
2 - Conspiracy theories - the mention obscure videos or theories as proof there is more to learn here
3 - They show photos of Fauci in public without a mask
4 - they "read science" and highlight conflicts, many times ignoring the dates on the "science articles" as knowledge evolves or treating all sources of information as equal "crazy demon sperm hydroxy cure lady = Fauci"
5 - The most convincing argument of all - Then how come you can smell farts?"
The only real question about masks is - why isn't the government making them faster, better, and distributing them everywhere for free? Because if there is one thing we do know about the masks - the higher the quality, the more effective they are.
Herman Cain checked all the boxes for "at risk" - 74 years old, male, prior chemo and stage IV cancer treatment probably compromised his immune system. He and everyone around him should have been wearing a mask. He should not have gone to the Tulsa rally, should have been distancing. He should have believed the scientists and facts on the ground.
Instead, one of his last public quotes - 2 days after he tested positive for Covid - was this, in regards to the Goveronor of South Dakota not requiring masks for the Mount Rushmore Rally:
"Masks will not be mandatory for the event, which will be attended by President Trump. PEOPLE ARE FED UP!" https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/02/herman-cain-hospitalized-with-covid-19.html
Sad and preventable.
Quoted from BobSacamano:It's safe to send kids back to school, but not safe for people to cast an in-person ballot?
I think people should mail their kids back to school just to be safe.
Quoted from mcluvin:One of my ding dong relatives found another link and posted it again. I listened to a bit more of it, but couldn't make it through the whole thing. One of the "docs" insists it's OK to send your kids back to school. The mortality rate for children is only 1/5th of 1% he says. In my county that would be ~126 kids. What parent would be OK with that? But these people don't do the math. They just hear 1/5th of 1% and it sounds like nothing.
I have a friend in the hospital with Covid right now. My age - mid 50's, was being careful, masks, distancing, etc - but, was watching his grandkids over the summer. Believes he caught it from them, they were asymptomatic.
Quoted from phil-lee:1.3 million people marched in Germany to be free from oppressive covid restrictions. Looks like the MSM isn't really covering this story, as expected, since it doesn't follow the approved narrative.
They all will probably be written off as neo-nazis.
CNN covered it, how much coverage do you expect? 17,000 people in Berlin. Perhaps the news source providing your coverage over covered it? Maybe one of our German pinsiders will chime in. Here is an excerpt and the link:
"The march, which was named by organizers as "Day of Freedom -- The End of the Pandemic," included anti-vaccine groups and some far-right and neo-Nazi organizations. On livestreams of the event, some protesters could be heard yelling, "We are the second wave.""
https://www.cnn.com/2020/08/01/world/berlin-germany-covid-19-protest-intl/index.html
Tired of waiting around? Lots of spare lab equipment? Super smart with a background in biotech? Make your own damn vaccine!
In these uncertain times, focus on the things that keep you going.
2B44D04D-9E5A-4122-A8B1-FC3633F9D41F (resized).jpeg
Story here: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-england-devon-53607951
People worried about mental health issues aren't serious if their remedy is "open schools, return to work, let the virus run its course, etc".
Let's hear more about expanding free, publicly accessible mental health treatment, making robust mental health coverage mandatory in health insurance coverage with zero co-pays or deductibles, and encouraging people through college scholarships and decent pay to enter mental health related fields.
Then I will think you care about mental health. I hate that the young woman took her own life, but many do throughout the school year as well. Many because of pressure they face at school and they go unrecognized and untreated because virtually no resources are allocated to this problem in schools.
1 week later
Brains have a hard time holding strongly conflicting ideas at the same time. If my brain believes we have done everything perfectly, timely, and heroically in regards to a pandemic that isn't that bad, but my brain is also confronted with conflicting ideas/information of 160k deaths, hot spots, super spreading events, hospitals overflowing in areas, lack of PPE, over 600 frontline healthcare workers dead of Covid, healthy people dying, other countries w/ fewer deaths per capita, etc - well, then that has to be resolved otherwise my brain has problems.
If my brain doesn't want to believe the pandemic is a really bad problem, then I will be willing to believe (or disbelieve) almost anything to resolve the internal conflict. Thoughts that would help to resolve this cognitive dissonance:
- It's really not that bad - most deaths happened to already sick or weak people in nursing homes
- everyone will get this virus, there is nothing we can really do
- It's not as bad as x, y, or z
- The death numbers are inflated
- The media has overblown it
- It's not our fault
- Mask wearing and social distancing might be discouraged or disparaged
- Entertaining alternative experts or conspiracy theories
When confronted with conflicting evidence, people have a tendency to dig in and fortify their positions. So, why do I bother posting in this thread? I don't know what it takes to move people one way or the other. My hope is the undecided will look at the evidence and take this as seriously as it deserves to be taken.
Kids getting together and doing stupid things has been around a long time. Being aware of it through social media and video availability? Kind of new.
I wonder where some of those kids got the audacious idea that Covid was no big deal? I know it wasn’t from the spreadsheet science nerds.
Quoted from Oaken:Good news! Saliva based test. 99% accurate. Open sourced. Uses common materials. Rapid test.
Oh, and it is dirt cheap.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/coronavirus-covid-19-update-fda-issues-emergency-use-authorization-yale-school-public-health
Super news!! Thank you NBA!! And Yale!
Quoted from Who-Dey:Kids are really stupid today compared to previous generations. So much bad parenting in today's world.
I graduated from high school in 1984 with 585 other super geniuses, all of us waay above average. If only we were in charge of the country now!
<looks at notes> Shit, average age of congress is mid-fifties. We are running the country now. My bad.
Quoted from poppapin:Solution- term limits.
Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss
Quoted from poppapin:I loved the way Anderson Cooper let the guy speak.
Anderson gave the pillow guy plenty of opportunity to make substantive statements, but shot him down whenever he tried to turn it into a free infomercial for a fraudulent Covid cure. Repeatedly asked him for information on the (nonexistent) studies and gave him time to respond with a real answer.
IMO that guy and his supplement are dangerous and Anderson did the responsible thing - he prevented his show from lending credibility to a dishonest supplement scheme.
Quoted from swampfire:Good article here, I totally recognize myself in it. In March, I was sanitizing anything that came into the house. By August, I’m going into restaurants, and going into stores to buy things I definitely don’t need. The mask and distancing are just muscle memory now. I still eat outside if it’s an option, but I don’t worry about sitting down in a booth in my favorite Cuban place if it’s not too crowded.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/covid-risks-stop-seeming-so-scary/2020/08/21/09c286c4-cc49-11ea-bc6a-6841b28d9093_story.html
Enjoyed the article. Without chronic risk desensitization I guess the wildebeests would never cross the river. Works out great most of the time!
Quoted from Darcy:What is going to happen to HALLOWEEN?
Will parents let their kids go to strange homes to Trick or Treat? Has your local community discussed this yet?
It's all we are talking about down here in Tennessee. We are thinking of requiring masks for Halloween.
Quoted from Atari_Daze:Pretty sure it related to this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plandemic
It's entwined with all the Qanon bs conspiracy crowd. They are ready, willing, and able to believe anything but truth right in front of their nose.
Quoted from Chrizg:The updated CDC data reveals that only 6% of the tiny percentage of deaths, of the tiny percentage of people actually testing positive, of the tiny percentage of people actually getting tested for COVID-19, listed COVID-19 as the sole cause of death.
Only 6%. That is 9683 deaths from only COVID.
6% is what we have shut our entire lives down for. This is direct from the CDC. Not news media or your political candidate.
This is ridiculous
Stop with the lockdowns and restrictions
“Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death. The number of deaths with each condition or cause is shown for all deaths and by age groups. For data on comorbidities,”
Again - For 6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned.
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm?fbclid=IwAR3jRh-jj1JmKJdpsSaLip6pwfUPAHSr_-RlWmeC6IMJvJBehxygxq0bhvc
This is the dumbest disinformation talking point of all the talking points meant to downplay the risk from this virus. But, some people can't wait to eat it up and ask for more I guess.
Quoted from Enaud:Estimates of the BLM March on Washington, was 250,000.
Not that it was a protest, but that's a bunch of people to spread the virus.
Protests were outdoors and most of the protestors I saw wore masks. And it lasted for days, not for a school year.
Since you live in Alabama, let's use your numbers for comparison. There are about 800,000 kids of school age and another 60,000 or so teachers and support staff. Teaching indoors, eating indoors, using indoor restrooms, for 8-10 hours a day for 180+ school days. And I bet each of those kids have homes with other family members.
So yeah, the protests have potential for exposure, but the schools likely have a bit more potential.
The "only 6% of people really died from Covid" and a certain segment of our population suddenly warming up to the Swedish Model and herd immunity is part of the new all out propaganda effort to downplay the disease.
The newest and most influential (to leadership) member of the pandemic advisory team is a retired neuroradiologist, Fox News contributing grifter that wants us to go full herd immunity.
Quoted from razorsedge:They need to do Something that might convince the masses their intentions are good. Philanthropy is not an automatic indicator of good intention, in fact it can sometimes be simply guilt driven. Maybe more like a convincer. Convincers are often used by grifters. $519 mil is a great convincer, let alone $50 billion! Lol .... lucky money has zero weight to those so-n-so's.
Anyway, it's intriguing to see how "convinced" everybody is, given all the dubious circumstances. Who didn't expect a "Pandemic" right about now? .... some eyes are shut I suppose, or maybe just purely focused on an isolated aspect of the world. Being able to add up or not, is irrelevant when people don't even want to (or can't) notice the problem in the first place.
Live Toad in pot on stove. Not for long... won't even notice... til it's too late.
We have buried 200,000 people here in the USA because of this disease and will have countless more with lifetime consequences from it. Maybe we aren't as concerned as you about Bill Gates having more money than he can spend and whether or not he is a good dude.
But that's not your message anyway, is it? You are soft peddling an anti-vax Qanon conspiracy theory and should stop.
False dilemmas are so emotional and exciting!! And very persuasive! Shut it all down, damn the economy!!! vs We're all gonna get this virus anyway - many of us will die, it's unavoidable!!! CHOOSE ONE NOW!! No one goes to school!! vs Everyone goes to school!!
We had very low amounts of information and zero practical testing capability against an unknown virus in March. Hell, we didn't even have toilet paper.
We have loads more info now, better treatments, and are on the cusp of very practical testing and maybe getting close to a vaccine. Some communities have very low infection rates and are choosing to carefully open up some things, including school. Some aren't. Some have plans that include both. That is the way it is supposed to work.
There is a lot of middle ground. Plenty of choices and room to maneuver between the extremes. Hundreds of choices between all and nothing.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:Herman Cain tweets "Virus not that deadly" from beyond the grave, after dying due to deadly virus. Hey don't shoot the messenger!
https://www.forbes.com/sites/lisettevoytko/2020/08/31/herman-cain-tweets-coronavirus-not-that-deadly-despite-having-died-from-it/?fbclid=IwAR1s6y3SWVFSnr4rKXWgnO98NEWj5m_7ypsW7V0VV4i5Cg08hHZnKyTRwfw#5cee1d063c77
Grifters gonna grift, even from the grave.
Just like there are lots of options between shutting down/opening up - there are a lot of options post Covid beyond live/die.
This propaganda and disinformation campaign is reprehensible and is having real consequences. Nothing I would have ever expected in our country.
Quoted from Oaken:# tests per day is getting a bit wonky too.
Edit: For instance, look at Alabama. They have dramatically decreased their testing whilst their cases are going up...meaning their positivity rate is 90%.
90 freakin percent. That is some powerful “if I don’t see it, it will go away” wishful thinking.
https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/testing/tracker/overview
Since you mentioned Alabama - Friend of mine in Mobile area works in an outpatient rehab facility. They require gowns, masks, and face shields when working with patients. He has been exposed 6 different times to Covid infected patients. Tested neg first 5 times, but the 6th time was the charm, he got it. Said it was the worst flu he ever experienced x 3. Put him down for over 2 weeks. Even caused some cognitive issues. He is recovered now and back at work.
Before he went back to work, he had to show a negative test. Says his facility used to do the tests, but a governmental agency removed their machines. Said the testing machines were needed somewhere else. Now they have to go off site to be tested. Weird, but even weirder - he was denied testing at 2 off site places because he was asymptomatic (well). Had to lie to a third off-site place to get a test so he could go back to work. This was in August.
Quoted from Trogdor:Did anybody look at the 63 pages? Their “activity” map shows only a high moderate level from southeast Wisconsin- the birthplace of Harley?! Suspect data. They also use an average case expense of $46k! It isn’t $12b in healthcare cost, they are estimating the value of functional loss from another German study using our dept. of trans. data but not respecting our conclusions. But if people aren’t working, we already LOST this money.. And how many of these people are retired anyway? How could we have even $46k in loss if 80% of cases are asymptomatic and maybe 95% return to work after 11 days? Let’s calculate economic damage from 100m people not working for 6 months..
If you look at the Safegraph sample charts on their site, there is a huge increase in foot traffic at Mexican restaurants during the same period. Hmmm Sturgis or too many people getting Margaritas and making bad Corona jokes? Actually, foot traffic at most types of restaurants, shopping, and industry- around the country!-was up during this period. Can you now attribute 20% of 1.9m cases in US- is this entire US or just cherry picked counties that they saw a rise in cases?- to Sturgis? Seems a stretch with everything in US going on at this time.
Sturgis wasn’t a great idea but it is amazing any news outlet picked up this “story”. It also noted that Sturgis did actually stress PPE and social distancing.
No, don’t own a motorcycle.
This is how science works. Scientists study and publish and then other scientists (not CNN, Fox, SD Dept of Health and Tourism, or Pinsiders) critique the method and results. Over time the study gains or loses traction. People learn from what was right/wrong and the next study is likely better.
This study is definitely taking some hits from the science community from it's assumptions (they couldn't very well contact trace 400,000 people), but no one is dismissing it entirely. Every science related critique I have read on it agrees that it was indeed a super spreading event that has/will cause more sickness and death than would have occurred were it cancelled.
It is not a huge leap to think 400,000 people could cause 250,000 illnesses at a super spreading event. Hell, that might be conservative. Just look at this story of a 65 person indoor Maine wedding that took place Aug 7th. It has been contact traced to 146 illnesses and 3 deaths already. https://www.insider.com/maine-coronavirus-outbreak-linked-to-65-person-indoor-wedding-2020-8
Quoted from noob-a-tron:So the hard question are the BLM rioters as selfish as the Sturgis idiots i am sure they are spreading it just as much.
Do you really think the risk is equivalent?
If I had to choose between spending an hour outside with mask at a BLM protest vs inside a Sturgis bar without a mask on Day 9 of the rally - I would think the protest held less risk.
Quoted from Trogdor:Interesting how this was mentioned in the study and why we have to suspect the motives of the study. As we have seen in Milwaukee and Kenosha, BLM protests were many hours over many days with people coming from several areas that also involved large amounts of individuals from an ethnicity considered at a higher risk. Why did the study basically write off the protesters but internationally shame a bunch of bikers? It was a sad day for science, like the Al Gore days of climatology.
There was another study done by some conservative think tank saying their data was showing a direct correlation between harsh lockdowns and huge spikes when relaxed. Didn’t get much media- seems like some more cherry picked data.
We can’t even make bikers wear helmets in WI, but they have to wear masks? Crashing at over 60mph, maybe you don’t want any chance of survival. Their safety might not affect my survival, but it does add considerably to our shared healthcare burden. If a helmet infringes on individual liberties, how do you enforce a mask? They don’t have to wear helmets, but I have to endure their obnoxiously tuned exhausts? Where are my freedoms? Anybody follow the twitter storm with that Olympic volleyballer Walsh-Trainer or something? She is surprisingly eloquent, I’ve known a lot of volleyballers. I don’t agree with her, but I imagine she is only saying what possibly millions of others are feeling. This is a long haul..
I am sure the protests increased infections as well - masks or no masks - especially with the tear gassing and what not. I don't think anyone has made the claim it is innocuous.
Sturgis was another order of risk though and a superb opportunity for study. No masks, indoor and outdoor crowds with virtually no regard for corona. Just one location with 400,000 people with only 7,000 locals (none of the protests had anywhere close to this number and way more locals) and cell phone data easier to extract and utilize.
Sometimes there isn't a conspiracy and a banana is just a banana.
Quoted from noob-a-tron:So are the BLM people that riot just as Selfish?
Why are you changing the argument from measuring the relative Covid risk of unmasked indoor activities vs masked outdoor activities to measuring 'selfishness'?
Quoted from fosaisu:Was it a selfishness study or a Covid transmission study?
When one argument is lost, no problem, just start another!!
Quoted from cdnpinbacon:Isn't 2 plus 2 22?
Yes, it is 22 CAD.
Quoted from hAbO:Why do you continue to believe in conspiracy theories that are easily debunked over SCIENCE and FACTS??? You have been trying to pump this thread with BS since the beginning. You lost all credibility with believing the "Demon Sperm" doctor and the "My Pillow" guy floating their Snake Oil to the public. Are you a member of QAnon that believe there is a pedophilia Pizzeria in Washington DC also?
There are 2 battles going on right now (1) Pandemic (2) Debunking Misinformation. The US is its own worst enemy because defective people believing this crap.
FACT: WE had an early warning organization already in China and in other countries looking for virus that may impact the US which were defunded in September 2019 TWO months before the first COVID19 case. FACT: The Whitehouse knew EIGHT MONTHS ago it was airborne, deadly and highly contagious but threw out the playbook and downplayed it for months. It may originated in Wuhan but we have propagated the problem by not addressing it and taking it seriously. We cant blame anyone but us...the US.We are definitely being lied to.
The only thing I agree with you on.
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It's become fashionable and edgy in certain crowds to be anti-science and pro-conspiracy. Used to be confined to a 'lunatic fringe' that we would just chuckle over, scratch our heads, shrug, and move on. There's always a real world X-files crowd.
Today the lies are packaged so nicely - articles/videos from online 'real' media sources, presented in such a way - from friends, 'verified' people, self proclaimed experts, credentialed (even fringers can get a medical degree or doctorate!) and too often now political leaders. It taps into deeply held beliefs or fears (societal change, loss of power, etc) which makes people 'want' to believe even with zero evidence to support. And some have just lost their ability or will to discern between real information and BS.
I agree with hAbO though, it's important to debunk the misinformation often and early. It may not work on the source, but it helps those who are wondering if everyone has lost their mind.
Quoted from RonSS:You use the term "conspiracy theory" as though it is wrong to look past an offered explanation when things aren't lining up.
I'm not really talking about Covid here, just the incessant use of the term to attempt to belittle people.
At what point, when an actual conspiracy has been admitted, do we remove the suffix "theory"?
Lunatic fringe, tin foil hat, those crazy people, just a few generalizations. And im not saying some of them aren't bat shit crazy, but remember, some of them are not.
I'm going to go read my Gulf of Tonkin book now
Gulf of Tonkin is a good example of an exposed conspiracy of sorts. Government/military related lies about faux/exaggerated threats to the US to engage in conflicts are a whole different category, IMO. But do a search for major conspiracy theories that eventually got to drop the 'theory' part and there aren't many notable ones. But there are a few.
Conspiracy theory and anti-science activity I am referring to are more along the lines of things that exhibit remarkable traction, but are easily disproven by available evidence or science or are just so improbable/have zero evidence that you can't believe they get any play at all:
Satanic pedophile rings below pizza restaurants, UFO's, vaccine microchips, various false flag operations, anything Alex Jones says, demon sperm believers, anti-vaxxers, 9/11 inside jobbers, medical cure suppression, faith healers, black helicopters, chem trails, 'natural' herd immunity proponents, anti-maskers, Qanaon nonsense in general, Bill Gates trying to control the world, plandemic, and anyone who believes that Covid has 'only' killed 8,000 people in the US or is a hoax perpetuated by x, y or z.
Quoted from razorsedge:This above Most Fittingly describes "mainstream" media sticklers/suckers. Confirmed.
Everyone with heads in sand, sometimes maybe even just due to denial of the generally obvious (to some) reality, and sensible reason being Too Confronting or "unbelievable" for them to face up to.
Instead, the ocean of mainstream conflicting nonsense that just doesn't add up becomes acceptable to the mainstream... just because it's simpler for them to not ask more appropriate (harder) reasonable questions about the disturbing realities all around us, and settle for swallowing the happy pill nonsense.... focus on the chariot racing hey, take no responsibility, plus that is easy and alot more Fun!. .... For now.
If anyone tries to expose the nonsense and inform people with reliable facts and reason, it is buried or discredited by the very system that propogates nonsense and pretend science.
The 3 highly respected epidemiologists that tried to blow the whistle... you'll never hear from them again, they didn't take the money route and failed in atempts to expose the corruption.... and refused to say "the right things", wouldn't tow the line so to speak. I thank them for trying and not being gullible, dumb or corrupt. It cost them their livelihoods to try, and most have no respect for that.
People need to re-check the definition of Evidence, Facts and Proof.... because these certainly ain't as plentiful as so many seem to blindly assume.
Your squishy 'conspiracy theory lite' ramblings are very light on actual information. Try citing a reference or two and a concrete statement that you believe and see if it stands up to criticism and examination. Post a peer reviewed study from a reputable source. Just spit it out, what is it you believe?
All this mumbling about "what is a fact really? Don't be blind, get your head out of the sand! what do we really know? No one wants to hear the real hard truths. Evidence is being suppressed... blah blah blah" is getting tiresome.
Quoted from Oaken:As they should. That’s how science works!
New information, new research, leads to new best practices.
Science shifts all the time when new information comes out and is usually not shy about it, thank goodness. Science invites criticism and independent verification. Continues to get dialed in tighter and tighter like it should.
Conspiracy theories and superstition OTOH stay the same, regardless of results and facts. Shuns contradictory information and transparency. Some even believe debunking of evidence and criticism prove the plot!
Dammit. Just stumbled on a major bonafide conspiracy theory that was proved to be true. Since I am all about dispensing with bad information and accepting new true information when it comes out, I feel compelled to expose it, even though I have been very anti-conspiracy theory lately and it could hurt my brand. Some of you guys are gonna love this one, I am sure.
Earlier this year there were rumors that some people at the very highest level of our government KNEW all about the Coronavirus as early as January and February. Knew that it was airborne, much deadlier than flu, and had no known treatments. These high level government officials are said to have downplayed the severity of the virus and kept much of this SECRET from the public! Told the public it was NO PROBLEM and UNDER CONTROL!! Nothing to see here!
Well, that really would be a conspiracy if true. Seemed implausible to some. Tough to believe that could happen here, right? Turns out a lot of people did NOT believe it and some still don't! But now there are freaking TAPES!! A real live Conspiracy Theory that turned out to be TRUE! Yikes! Sometimes a banana is NOT a banana!
Quoted from MrBally:So how about the Big 10 Athletic Conference flip-flopping and having a college football season after all?
Do you think the "Student-Athletes" were 1st priority and that money played no role in the decision?
My son and his family also live in Ann Arbor and are not happy about football season bringing more sickness to the area.
Quoted from Oaken:Keep in mind, the primary purpose of the mask is to keep others safe from you.
Why would anyone down vote this? Even if you don't believe in science, it just makes sense.
Meanwhile, the 65 person, indoor, mask-free Maine wedding has now been linked to at least 270 Covid cases and 8 deaths. None of the 8 dead attended.
https://www.sfgate.com/news/article/Big-Papi-had-COVID-Maine-paper-mill-cases-grow-15580605.php
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Yep. I've said it many times. My wife says it to me all the time when I bitch about my job. We're a pretty pragmatic family. Not a lot of compassion for bitching to be found. Probably because there's so much of it. Deal with your situation, or change your situation.
But there IS tolerance. We may not agree with someone's viewpoint, but we don't judge them for it. Everyone fights battles.
Do you guys get invited to a lot of parties?
Dude, maybe 2020 isn't the year to be digging up 27 mummies? Just a thought...
https://www.cnn.com/style/article/egypt-sarcophagi-discovery-intl-hnk-scli/index.html
Quoted from RonSS:Yup, and you're correct, not perfect, but at least it's better than judging the situation from headlines.
Cheers!
Pretty sure the point was that we are not only 'not perfect', but that we are actually very very bad at this. Handling it poorly. Shitting the bed. Screwing the pooch. Fing it up. Mailing it in. Pencil whipping. Schruted it up. Botched it. Bob is not our uncle. Dropped the ball. Won't even get a participation trophy. Created a mess. The almost complete opposite of perfect.
We have more resources at our disposal than any other country on Earth. We are the USA FFS. We should have done/should be doing such a good job at this that our example of what to do and how to do it should be unassailable. Even further - we should have resources and bandwidth left over to help other countries. Because THAT my friends, is what the USA used to do.
Instead, we have over 200k dead, a country divided, and more coming.
Zero surprise here. Anyone who decides to flout mask wearing recs, actively discourage mask use among employees, hangs out with people who circulate widely where the virus isn't taken seriously, and engages unmasked crowds/activities shouldn't be shocked when they come up positive.
The take home for me is that he caught it even with a full time staff of clinicians constantly testing everyone around the president - the most protected person on the planet. Means testing certainly helps - look how long it took to get got. But in the end you can't protect people from themselves.
Quoted from chad:Hopefully, they get tested several times with all the false positives happening.
This is not a false positive. Helicopter to Walter Reed for a few days.
Quoted from Gunnut40:Sorry I took a break. Yes that is a fact. Keep it simple. We all want people to wear masks? Give them simple reasons to wear it. Something everyone can agree on.
Medical Community, Science, Epidemiologists, CDC, Fauci, Friends & Family: How about to prevent contracting or spreading Covid-19?
Large segment of the population (for some reason): Naw, not what I'm looking for.
Quoted from o-din:Hasn't happened to me since this started. But, I actually care and wear a mask that fits and pay attention. And, I'm not doing it with any other ulterior motives. There is no excuse for being a dicknose in public places. A better example is to pay attention and not let it happen. Must be real hard to be an armchair leader over the last 6 months.
I applaud your stringent standard that you are applying to everyone always.
Quoted from o-din:I'm just saying practice what you preach and don't use it as some kind of act. You can do whatever you want though. I had a dicknose behind me in 7/11 the other day breathing down my neck, and I almost turned around and punched him. Instead, I grabbed my shit and left and just said "what an idiot".
I don't like the mask and I don't wear it outside, but when I go into a store that has a sign posted, what makes some exempt from the rules that most follow? Oh, they saw a guy on TV doing it so this way is OK. I guess we should all go dicknose now? Perhaps the mask isn't even the issue here.
Biden's a pretty old dude who would be high risk and believes the experts as far as I can tell. He's given no reason to doubt his sincerity regarding masks, your nose slip pic notwithstanding. His mask messages are not harsh, couched in science, and mostly 'lead by example'. Even T affirmed Biden's commitment to mask adherence, albeit while throwing a little shade at him. Can't please everyone I suppose.
But you are def onto something, maybe the mask isn't the problem here.
Quoted from o-din:Trying to type out what I feel about the whole situation is very difficult because of the rules on Pinside as they are. I don't pledge allegiance to one side or the other and then refuse to budge. I use my eyes, ears, and intelligence to size up the situation.
Let's just say noone was prepared for this pandemic as it hasn't happened in over 100 years. It was a no win situation especially for those in charge. Could it have been handled differently? Sure. But what guarantee is that the outcome would have been better. There is none. Would somebody else with a promise had made some other critical errors? Maybe it could have been much worse. Lot of experts and opinions, but they don't know either. There is no end game, formula, or time limit to figure it out.
You could have mandated masks, but not everybody would wear them. You could tell people now is not the time to protest or riot, but they would not listen. You could tell every body to go to school or stay home from school and neither is much of a win. Americans are going to do what they are going to do no matter what you tell them. People say if we did this or did that we would not have 200,000+ dead Americans. Really? We are probably the most unhealthy country in the world to begin with. Maybe could have made it so it took longer? Try running this country like China and see how that works.
But, mainly because it is an election year, a deadly pandemic has been turned into a political tool. I just hope whatever the outcome, none of you are disappointed when thousands, perhaps millions more die anyway. Or that the world sinks into an economic depression, the likes of which we've never seen before. Let's hope not, but no one man is going to make that much difference on either front.
Agree to disagree. I believe the person in charge of the pandemic response and who leads a country makes quite a difference in outcomes, unity, adherence, severity, and length of the pandemic inside their borders. Be first, be right, be credible.
Tough to explain the differences in current outcomes without believing leadership makes a large difference.
We had plenty of preparation for a pandemic, especially for one that didn't hit us first. We got to school a little on China, Italy, and South Korea. Had about as much early warning as you can expect. Long explanations for why "it just couldn't be any better than it is here" don't wash.
We have entire (mostly) non-partisan organizations (NIAID, CDC, and others) that have plans and resources for things like this. The CDC's motto is Be first. Be Right. Be Credible. Means get the information out fast and as correct as it can be with no bullshit and then correct things as the situation changes and new information becomes available. Instead, we chose Downplay problem. Discredit experts. Disinform public.
There are actual manuals to follow when this happens - no secrets - take a look here if you are curious: https://emergency.cdc.gov/cerc/
Our leadership chose to throttle established response protocols and muzzle lifelong experts and now? It is what is is.
Like a lot of you guys, I can only handle so much network news - like almost none. I have found it helpful to follow some experts ( I use Twitter to follow them). None are currently affiliated with the government, but all are actually real live actual experts in their field - demon sperm free. The information they share is more technical, focused, and useful to me as explainers. These folks were all early on dispelling the foolishness around unproven therapies, early on mask wear/distancing, sensible about opening protocols, and in general low on the nonsense scale. Here are 3 of my faves.
Eric Topol - MD, researcher, associated with Scripps Research Institute
Tom Frieden - MD, former CDC director (Obama), infectious disease specialist
Scott Gottlieb - MD, former head of FDA (Trump), associated with American Enterprise Institute (conservative think tank), appears on CNBC and posts those clips on his twitter feed
Quoted from o-din:The biggest elephant in the room is a lot of hard working people who made healthy lifestyle choices are sacrificing everything they have worked for and losing everything to save people, most of whom have health problem brought on by their own lack of taking care of themselves and choices they have made. The statistics show that. I know some of you don't want to see it that way and it may sound a little morbid, but it is a fact
Please provide your supporting evidence for this fact.
Super news today if you have at your fingertips a helicopter, in-house 24/7 concierge doctor, access to testing 24/7, immediate admission to a world class medical facility, a medical suite fully staffed with it's own private ICU empty and waiting on you, a team of 12 doctors, immediate access to any drug and inside information - even experimental - (notably did not include HCQ or MyPillow pills, lol - those are good for us though), well then you shouldn't be worried so much about Covid. It's NO BIG DEAL!
However, if you are a regular guy like most of us are here - I do not think anything has changed for us over the last week. Keep your chin up and mask on!
Quoted from frisbez:He's not out of the woods yet?
A humbling Herman Cain/coronavirus timeline:
6/24: Attends Trump rally, maskless
7/2: Tests positive for Covid-19
7/10: Says he’s improving
7/15: Says his doctors seem happy
7/27: Says he’s really getting better
7/30: Dies
Pretty sure nobody gets over this virus in 3 days...even with extraordinary medical care and attention.
He is still tweeting though.
Anyone posting unfounded conspiracy theories gets no love on this thread from me. A spot on the Joe Rogan show does not move a theory from unfounded to founded, lol. It's like whackamole and I am glad to use the hammer. Shouldn't be a surprise.
Conspiracies are designed and promoted to distract and/or downplay the threat from the virus. Promoting them results in increased sickness and death. It is a serious matter.
So serious that Facebook (late, IMO, but finally) whacked Qanon from the entire site. Based on comments, there are a few Q influenced people on this thread. I think Pinside should consider the same approach. Deliberate relaying of misinformation should be cause for eject from the thread.
9413-Figure-1 (resized).png
Quoted from Atari_Daze:Well this little nugget is interesting:
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54442386
If you read that^^ you should also read this:
https://www.wired.co.uk/article/great-barrington-declaration-herd-immunity-scientific-divide
Quoted from razorsedge:See, case in point of the stupidity of echo chambers, and going your own way just because things don't add up for someone in their own mind, regarding some real things. Lol
Instead of dividing everyone up... the educated and reasonable objective people should be all coming together, discussing, debating, and sharing (with Everybody)... to the end that Consensus can be found, and some things might make actual sense for once, at least, and be shared broadly. But realistically, there are far too many ignorant and oblivious people these days (whom believe they are not) for that to seem possible. The majority not really using much thought at all, and lazily going their own gullible way. Emotion instead of Reason.
Yeah that will fix everything. Really Smart!
You present your false conspiracy laden, anti-vax, virus denying message as a high brow thought experiment that can only be undertaken by the most enlightened and open minded among us. Never any facts or sourcing - your only support is a literal buffet of logical fallacies. You favor ad hominem with me at the moment, but strawman, false choice, appeal to authority, and circular argument remain some of your faves.
Stick to your straight anti-vax shtick, it makes more sense when people are trying to determine what the heck you are talking about in your long winded posts. You can have the censorship and echo chamber conversation with yourself, that seems appropriate.
Quoted from DaveH:Part of the argument against science is the tactic of wearing you down until you give up and go away. I'm sure there is a name for that debating tactic, but I don't know it off the top of my head. The most knowledgeable people are impacted first, because they are not used to people arguing obvious things. It gets to the point where you can't even explain what day it is. Eventually the grip of that argument tightens until the knowledgeable people stop arguing and walk away frustrated. Next the people arguing against science go after folks that are smart, but not experts in the subject with the same tactic. Eventually they also walk away frustrated. This continues until there is nobody knowledgeable left, and the science denier is the only voice left in the room.
So you are correct, you will never ever change the deniers viewpoint. But you should still bother trying and speaking rationally. Because when smart people stop speaking rationally out of frustration, society crumbles. And I realize some people will think that is hyperbole. But we have people passing laws and signing orders against requiring facemasks... during a pandemic... in 2020. I think we have reached the point where saying that society could crumble isn't really that far out there.
More thumbs up. I don't know what the tactic is called either but it seems to start with 'flood the field' with anything - I mean anything - argue every point as hard as you can no matter how flimsy your position and then claim victory using an assortment of fallacies depending upon the audience and situation.
The most popular seems to be "My ignorance is equal to your expertise", therefore the truth is in the (now) muddled middle. A false equivalency. It is the argument frequently used to demand the same attention be paid to Dr. Fauci (lifelong infectious disease expert, worked under 6 or 7 presidents, etc) that you would pay Dr. Atlas (retired radiologist and Fox News contributor) as an example. Both ideas/people are out there, so they deserve equal weight. It devolves into claims of unfair censorship and personal attacks when the argument completely breaks down.
Quoted from DaveH:The "flood the field" argument is known as a Gish Gallop. The premise is that it is easier to knock everything off a table than it is to set it up. The main point of it is to never let someone else set the table back up fully. When they get close to finishing an explanation, turn to the next table and knock everything off that one. The segue statement is "Yeah, but what about..." and they move on without allowing you to finish the first explanation. We've all experienced this with others. They say something crazy, and you spend all the time explaining why it is crazy, and rather than accept it, they move on to something else. It is built up just to frustrate the other person, as opposed to actually trying to gain knowledge. Once you understand that, it makes the discussion more clear.
TIL this has a name - Gish Gallop - thank you! Screenshot below of the Wiki on Gish Gallop:
Screen Shot 2020-10-10 at 9.31.05 AM (resized).pngPSA - Get your flu shot! My family all got ours at CVS yesterday at no out of pocket cost - the three of us were in out and out in 15 minutes. The pharmacist said they are seeing increased demand this year. In my area they are not in danger of running out, but they are being asked by corporate to report inventory sooner than normal. I have seen some news reports of supplies running tight on the over 65 flu vaccine.
It will be interesting to see if Covid has an impact on the flu season - heightened awareness with most of the population paying more attention to masking, washing, vaccinating, and distancing.
o-din should be happy about this. Dicknose will cost you big bucks in the NFL.
Quoted from o-din:If I were a dicknose,
yubby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dibby dum
all day long I'd dicknose biddy bum,
If I were a dicknose man!
You are half right.
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:It can be a long discussion as to what the National debt was at the end of 2016. From 12.5 Trillion to 18 Trillion.
By the end of 2020. We will be at 22 trillion to 25 Trillion.
This does not include Care Act Loans, to my knowledge, as no numbers have been released, or how much will get paid back.
Estimates are 3 to 6 Trillion given out, as Forbes reports increased wealth during the Pandemic, of 3 Trillion.
Regardless, we have an official 6 Trillion listed in 4 years. and we both agree about printing more money. We should be very concerned about inflation, or even hyperinflation happening, with a debated unemployment number, along a GDP drop of over 30%, all resulting in a very uneven
recovery, and a huge bill to be paid.
We supposedly didn't get told about Coronavirus in advance to prevent panic, I can't wait to hear the truth we are shielded from about the economy.
Quoted from Lame33:I'm sure it's just fake news by a three-time Pulitzer Prize finalist, but the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has a very comprehensive story on the scientific and governmental response to this pandemic. We saw most of this happen, but the timeline and explanations of what was supposed to occur was enlightening.
https://www.jsonline.com/in-depth/news/2020/10/14/america-had-worlds-best-pandemic-response-plan-playbook-why-did-fail-coronavirus-covid-19-timeline/3587922001/
The headline sells it better than the link:
The U.S. was the world's best prepared nation to confront a pandemic. How did it spiral to 'almost inconceivable' failure?
Interviews with public health experts and reviews of studies by government agencies, watchdog groups and scientists reveal a cascade of blunders.
That article is a great summary and timeline of the whole thing and how we got here. Should be a key post imo.
Quoted from Trogdor:An interesting article, but if you can’t read the bias- you aren’t critically reading. Pulitzer Prize finalist doesn’t mean unbiased- simply means other biased editors and journalists agreed with you.
How could an article in a newspaper with an unabashedly liberal editorial staff be considered “true” news? If you don’t see bias, it is because you agree with the bias.
An article that does not discuss the debates that raged several times within the scientific community itself during early 2020 laid the foundation of the mistrust between government and scientists at present. Any mention of how China suppressed the scientific community? No, China was a helpless victim that tried to spread the word. Why couldn’t we get PPE? Obviously a FED mistake because all the countries producing masks were using them at an unprecedented scale.
Any idea what the ave. life expectancy of a Nigerian is? Would think that might be a useful fact in an article making a comparison to the US.
Any mention of who loudly protested the cancelling of flights to China or threat of closing borders? Kind of a big tell there.
US made plenty of mistakes, but to assign blame in a disproportionate manner only increases probability of future recurrence. Our two party system failed.
Meanwhile, Ireland goes full lockdown for another 6 weeks because of 1000 new daily cases- total pop is 5m. Is that the way? They haven’t been able to travel greater then 5 Kms for 5 or 6 of last 7 months. But they let tourists in and allowed pubs to function in certain areas. If I had to sit in place for 6 months while jokers in Dublin were going crazy, I’d be losing it.
Czech R has 11k new dailies for 10m!
WI still holding our own with 3800 for 6m..
Nice - we still have 'both sides' arguments being made.
If anything - the article didn't place enough blame on the current administration that is currently in charge of pandemic response. If you think, "hey, we did a great/good/ok/acceptable job" - then perhaps a bias has clouded comprehension of the situation?
If I perform poorly on an important task - I don't look around and find other poor performers to commiserate with, compare myself to and make excuses or blame the task. I look around to see if anyone did better and if that is the case, then the task was not the problem - it was definitely me.
How did professional grievance, blame placing, projection, responsibility dodging, and pouty disgruntlement come into such fashion lately?
Quoted from CrazyLevi:In late October, 2020, there are still people who don't understand that masks work like this: THey protect you a little, protect others a lot, and protect everybody a lot if everybody wears them.
How is it possible that people still don't understand this? It's been a constant bombardment of this information for 7 months or so.
Some people don't want to know.
Quoted from Grayman_EM:It's a virus. Which like the flu will be with us again next year. There can be a vaccine but that doesn't kill the virus everywhere. I did hear that the flu numbers are down on the radio.
What is a radio?
Quoted from Daditude:What has been your "go-to" pandemic pinball?
Blasphemy on a pinball forum, but my go to has been Legend of Zelda - Breath of the Wild on the Switch. I haven't played video games since the 90's when my kids were young enough to want me to play too. A big learning curve, but have had a blast with it.
Wife got a Switch first and I was an Animal Crossing widower for a while, lol - so she got me one too.
Quoted from o-din:You are just not getting the point that most don't or won't wear them correctly including a guy I can't mention here, but he is one of the worst offenders. It's not doing any more good than providing some false sense of security.
I don't go out much, but when I do, I rarely see anybody that is wearing it right.If everyone wore a mask that completely sealed their respiratory system so a virus could not escape or get in, it would make a difference, but they don't or rarely do.
There are no mask police to enforce it either. Never will be. As long as you have something hanging, that seems to be good enough for the status quo.
I agree with O-din - we need a national mask mandate, stronger messaging from the President on down promoting mask efficacy and usage, educational PSA's via print, online, television media, etc on proper mask wearing, utilize the Defense Production Act to design, manufacture, and distribute better designed and more effective masks free to the public during the entire pandemic until an effective vaccine and treatments are available to all.
Quoted from o-din:And here's the latest on the vaccine front for those that think that by anyone getting one, it will help prevent the spread.
https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/fauci-vaccines-will-only-prevent-symptoms-not-block-the-virus-195051568.html
"any inoculations developed now are focused on simply preventing symptoms from arising, rather than killing off the virus altogether."
The primary function of the current vaccines in phase 3 is preventing Covid in an infected individual. It's true they are not focused on preventing spread, but that does not mean they won't prevent spread. Some of the current phase 3 trial vaccines are also tracking whether spread is reduced too. This NYT opinion piece goes into more detail on this important subject:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/24/opinion/coronavirus-vaccine-prevention.html
Upshot here is a vaccine that does not reduce transmission is only helpful to the person taking the vaccine. It might not promote herd immunity so people that have weakened immune systems, people that cannot (or will not) take the vaccine might not benefit.
Quoted from gweempose:That's a great article, and it explains why certain activities like going to the gym are a really bad idea right now. I went to the DMV with my son last weekend to get his driver's license. Even though everyone was wearing masks and we were six feet apart, I was still very uncomfortable being forced to wait in that room for 30 minutes or so.
We early voted yesterday, in person, masked up, in a room with almost zero ventilation and one door. No crowd so we were in the room no longer than 5 minutes. But I still didn't like it and it was definitely unsafe.
They were limiting the # of people in the room, but the mostly older poll workers stay in there all day. Some wearing plastic wood working face shields but no mask. The level of misunderstanding on this is catastrophic.
Quoted from poppapin:Interesting snapshot of covid hospitalizations. Are they really over run?
https://www.beckershospitalreview.com/public-health/number-of-covid-19-hospitalizations-state-by-state-july-15.html
No one has ever said that all hospitals are 'over run'. This stat just shows number of beds occupied by Covid patients, not beds occupied. My state, TN, has 1,384 hospital beds out of 4,183 total currently occupied by Covid patients. 33.1% of all hospital beds in my state have a Covid patient!! I am sure the ICU bed % is far higher.
There are patients in the hospital with problems other than Covid, so the census rate is higher than 33.1% and a lot higher than normal. The 33.1% occupancy represented by Covid patients strain a hospital's capacity, which is not measured just by bed count. The health system was not built for this and the strain it puts on the healthcare workers - housekeeping, nursing, physicians, volunteers, med techs, pharmacists, transport, food service, respiratory techs, radiology techs, lab workers, phlebotomists, and all the people that keep our hospitals running is extraordinary.
Over 1700 healthcare workers have died from Covid in the US.
If you think this amount of work for this long doesn't potentially affect the quality or availability of care at your local hospital if you have to go in (for anything!), then you are sadly mistaken.
When people post things like this to downplay the virus, it sucks. The % of those people is fairly low compared to all the people available, but I say we are over run with them right now.
The total hospital bed number for TN looked low to me and it is, but the information available from the state of TN site paints a darker picture. Only 16% capacity left for regular hospital beds and 12% capacity left for ICU beds. That is def not good. Ask a hospital administrator around here if they would like some more Covid patients.
Source: https://www.tn.gov/health/cedep/ncov/data/hospitalization-data/hospital-capacity.html
Quoted from bob_e:Add two more corona deaths
[quoted image]
Yuk, yuk, yuk - funny and fake of course. Here is some real news of hospitals in Utah on the verge of being overwhelmed right now:
https://www.cnn.com/2020/10/26/health/utah-hospitals-care-rationing-covid/index.html
An official tweet from one of Utah's unelected public health officials trying to get everyone to stop running their lives by their Uncle's facebook page and take the pandemic seriously so people don't die unnecessarily:
Image 10-30-20 at 9.28 AM (resized).jpg
Here is Utah's Governor responding to a planned protest at the public health official's HOME and death threats:
Quoted from CrazyLevi:This stupid meme and it's brethren were super popular around here about 5 months ago.
Well, thank God for cancer and heart disease I guess![quoted image]
Cancer and Heart Disease will be holding Covid's beer if we don't change course.
Here is what 'turning the corner' looks like in TN:
https://twitter.com/GovBillLee/status/1322298087860326400
TLDR: Gov Lee issued a continuance of our current state of emergency through the end of the year. In addition to the continuance he added:
- counties have more authority to require mask use
- authorized pre-license mental health professionals (essentially students) to practice Telehealth services under certain guidelines because the mental health issues/needs are outpacing our capacity
- Authorized Respiratory Therapists, Nurses, and other allied health professionals to operate outside the scope of their current practice in ER and acute care settings to help with staffing capacity strains in TN hospitals. Means you will have people doing things to/for you they were not necessarily trained for.
Quoted from Utesichiban:I live in the Salt Lake City metro area. Our governor is all talk. He has been repeating the same stuff about doing the right thing and wearing masks for months. Problem is, there are still way too many morons that maintain masks are worthless and Covid largely a hoax here despite the hospital situation.
Meanwhile, our governor has done nothing to control this spike (which started very soon after school reopenings) and the exponential growth. He has still not issued a statewide mask mandate, allows high school sports to continue, bars & gyms remain open, and universities and schools (the super spreaders) continue largely 4 days a week uninterrupted.
We have been fortunate that Utah is the youngest and one of the healthiest states in the country in mitigating deaths to this point. We are headed for serious problems, however, as flu season also kicks in, weather cools, and people move indoors. We may be the next NYC unless our governor actually does something of substance to curb the spread and the selfish behavior of much of our populace.
Tennessee is the same. Governor mostly talk, mostly reactive. Although our morons are probably not as healthy as your morons.
Here is some good news - we have a drive in movie place now. Hard to get tickets as its the parking lot of our local independent movie theatre and only has 34 spots available each night. Seems to be a growing thing now.
Who is that Pinsider that owned a drive in? I think he was having some financial problems, was he able to hang on? It would be booming now!
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:I don't know if Buddy is the guy you are referring to, but if you are here is his drive-in, in Norton, Virginia:
https://nortoncinema.com/central-drive-in-norton/
That was who I was thinking about. Glad he made it, he's got a pandemic resistant business now.
Should be a giant story and huge scandal. Instead we are getting fed a load of BS about turning a corner and vaccines ready next week. Disgusting.
Quoted from Daditude:It's strange...every time I post a funny meme, I seem to find an unpleasant article right afterwards.
Pretty sure it's not you man, keep 'em coming.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:Americans (myself included) do not like to be told what to do. That's evident. It's pretty much why our country was founded in the first place. One of our states literally has the slogan, "Live free or die." Seriously.
The ONLY path to ending this in the USA is herd immunity. That's it. I'm not holding my breath for an effective vaccine.
Get it, and get past it or die. That's it. Reality sucks sometimes.
So much to disagree with here, but so little interest.
However, I applaud you for just laying it out there. Several here believe as you do, but waste so much time with inane and unsupportable arguments. I salute you sir for getting right to your point.
Quoted from o-din:I wear my mask properly and follow whatever rules each establishment puts down. I went to the dermatologist last Monday after putting it off for months to get my annual melanoma checkup. All the Drs. and receptionists in the waiting area were wearing quality masks properly. However, even stopping people as the went in to get their temp checked, didn't stop them from letting dicknose patients in. WTF?!
As far as wearing a mask to protect others, seems a pointless venture when most beyond medical personnel don't wear them properly, or even a few at any given location and nobody seems to care. As far as protecting myself, I'm not really worried about getting sick from this virus at all. And I'm certainly not going to play the roll of some dicknose police.
The mask controversy will surely rage on, but from what I see out in public, even if you mandate them, it will never work as long as there is no mandate on how to wear them or clean them. Even if there was, there would be nobody to enforce it. I'm sure some of these filthy masks that never get cleaned are doing more harm than good anyway.
Bring on the downvotes, you know who you are, and tell me why I'm wrong and then convince me there can or will be a plan in place that will work to correct all that. Or is this nationwide act of halfass wearing masks really making that much of a difference?
If you really like masks, talk them up, not down. Lead by example. If you have some extra dough, buy some good triple layer surgical masks and share them when you can. Tell your friends how to wear them and why they work. Explain that your mask is mostly for them and their mask is for you.
There is no mask controversy raging on, only mask misinformation.
Quoted from DaWezl:Ok, so as a sort of thought exercise, say Biden takes over the nation in late January. What are the top things he should prioritize in regards to the pandemic? In my mind, I’m thinking establishing a national buying collective of PPE and also facilitating improvements to broadband access. There’s also something about a more cohesive testing and reporting structure.
1. Focus on masks - mass manufacturing of good ones, distributing them freely, educating people on correct use and efficacy through multi media campaign.
2. Cheap, fast, and accurate home testing kits - throwing as much money as is necessary to make this happen. This promotes a return to normalcy in the home, workplace, and schools.
3. Testing, tracing, and isolation programs that provide financial support for those that need to isolate - both individuals, small businesses, and schools.
4. Experts leading the pandemic response, with a return to public reporting 100% of the data.
5. Extra support of various kinds for frontline healthcare workers. It's difficult to understand the physical, emotional, and financial strains we are putting on them right now. They cannot hold out at this pace.
6. Continue evaluating vaccine and treatment dev and supporting those that are showing promise.
7. CDC and FDA back in charge in their lanes and clean house of any political operatives that have been inserted.
I have more, but this is a great start...
Quoted from Wolfmarsh:+1 to these. Immediately have the USPS distribute face masks and saliva rapid testing kits to every household. The saliva kits should be scannable and reportable by cell phone/QR code.
What are your other top tech solutions? Love that one!
Quoted from DaWezl:Love your suggestions! As I was thinking through it myself, I was getting stuck on the thought that I’d still want the federal response to be things that would genuinely be useful (ie a national mask mandate at this point would just cause more friction than actually help), and let the states flex restrictions as needed. I think your ideas are perfect that way!
I think we are past due for a mask mandate in many areas. Many of the targeted prevention strategies have to be dialed in to the location, but I wouldn't leave the criteria for implementation up to the locality. Our governor (TN) has left mask mandating up to the counties and that seems to be a mistake. As example - If rural counties ignore masks and other preventative measures, but their sick people have to be treated in the adjacent metro county hospitals, then the metro county pays the price for their poor decisions, but have no say in the matter.
From a national top down strategy, I would probably provide the states with CDC guidelines to enforce and carrots/sticks to induce them to comply. Probably would tie levels of lockdown to measurable goals (like a defcon system) - positive tests under xx%, adequate testing per 100k people, hospital staffing capacity, etc.
There are lots of ways to do this in a way that keeps the economy as open as possible while protecting people. Improving people's mask IQ and mask adherence is probably the quickest/fastest/cheapest bang for the buck. Pulling in reasonable people from both sides of the political spectrum to give a united message on this is a hurdle we shouldn't have to clear, but that's where it probably has to start.
Gathering in an open area where you can maintain a distance that you are comfortable with and leave when you want to leave doesn't seem like a huge risk to me. But many were def disregarding common sense precautions.
Riding a bus into an hour plus long event with shoulder to shoulder seating, people yelling, some defiantly not wearing masks, and bussed back out with a bunch of strangers from who knows where. I wouldn't get on a bus or plane right now, but that's me.
Cramming into the middle of the field when you beat Clemson and hugging everyone in sight. I hate Clemson as much as anyone (Roll Tide Roll!) but I'm not even going to that game at my age during a pandemic- student? yeah, 18 yo dumbass RTR would have been there for sure..I'd prob just now be waking up.
People in each scenario seem to be comfortable with the amount of risk they believe to have assumed. Age and health related differences mean that some people at the same event had differing risk. Prob all 3 violated some sort of state or local ordinances and various degrees of common sense.
Quoted from Oaken:Took a quick looksie at the cdc website And I think I see the problem: the poster is using the term average wrong.
The best I can do squaring their comment with the data in the table is that they are actually referring to the mode.
Would be interesting to know the average age or the mode of the last 3-4 months. Nursing homes in some areas were hit particularly hard on the front end of this.
CDC now says the mask benefits the wearer as well and cites some studies.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html
Quoted from yancy:Chair of the task force had planned to vacation in Florida this week, but canceled it to contest election results.
It's almost like someone who believes in the literal rapture shouldn't be in charge of preventing an apocalypse.
If I had more thumbs to give, you would have them all.
Quoted from tuffano:Hmmm..I would have put my money on hurricane Eta hitting Florida this week as the reason to cancel a vacation, but it you and other sources say it’s due to contesting the election then I won’t debate it because I’d hate to get locked out of this thread due to a political post.
Perhaps the Coronavirus Task Force Leader shouldn't be scheduling vacations right now.
Quoted from Oaken:I mean, what’s even IN theatres right now?
Oaken - I just checked and there are a LOT of choices:
The Covid Strikes Back
Night of the Living Covid
Dr. Atlaslove or: How I stopped Worrying and Learned to Love the Covid
When Harry Met Sally on Zoom
Lot of Covid on the Prairie
Ferris Bueller's Year Off
Planes, Trains, and Covid
It Was a Wonderful Life
The Texas Covid Massacre
All The President's Men Have Covid
Groundhog Day (works fine as is imo)
Quoted from toddsolus:Utah has finally issued a statewide mask mandate as of last week. We have a population of 4 million and have been testing positive at over 23% and rising...some would say this is due to the mandatory testing of university students that has gone into effect with the mandate but as hospital stays and deaths are on the rise, it would seem more likely Halloween is the likely culprit ....there was a party near Brigham Young University with an estimated 10k people in attendance ...that was just one party.
As a Smurf living in a very red state I have always been at odds with the prevailing Myth based government and never understood how a state so well educated could be so blind to science and reality.
My conclusion is that it must be people just lack the "in your face" news of the effects and realities of this disease like we saw in NY last spring ....like the Vietnam war people need to see the body bags , so to speak.....
With that said, here is a pretty good and informative article in our local paper about the picture here in Utah hospitals
https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/11/14/who-is-utahs-hospitals/
Super article, thank you for sharing.
Quoted from razorsedge:The possibilities are almost endless...
Israel is symbyosis, aparently. Most have virus, with no covid... according to that doctor and his mates there a few posts back. Neither of these seemed to get much coverage at all.
On the SA thing, I never said SA was free of corruption. Chances are that cluster wasn't by accident, either...
Quoted from OLDPINGUY:From my best friend last night, writing about his brother:
Family had to make a petition with doctors to keep my brother on life support. Doctors want to take him off, think he is lost. They need the ventilator, room space, and staff for those who stand a far better chance. They have people they can help who are dying in halls until they get enough resources. Sad for doctors. They have to choose who lives or dies based on resources and logic. They don't have the luxury of trying to save everyone, they have to try to save the most, and choose who dies. I am sure they cry themselves to bed each night. It has to be traumatic for them. That is where we are as a nation.
That is terrible, I am so sorry to hear about your friend's family. What area of the country?
Quoted from cdnpinbacon:So brutal my wife bought her own Christmas presents this year. I'm pretty depressed and as usual want or need anything. I just want my crazy family all together. can't even have that.
Hang in there brother! The vaccines are on the way and look super promising, beyond expectation. Frontline HCW should have access in the next 3-4 weeks and that should eventually help with hospital capacities. But this thing has an end!
That being said, with all the travel and get togethers going on, I predict this will be a very rough 2-3 months on our healthcare systems. Do whatever you are able to stay healthy for the next 2-3 months.
Vitamin D has been shown to help prevent upper respiratory infections (including Covid) and it can also help us all with Seasonal Affective Disorder as the days get shorter and we spend more time inside.
Anyone want to join a Covid vaccine trial? Make an extra $740? If you are anti-vax, there is a 50% chance you will be in the placebo group!
FYI - No idea if legit or not. Just saw it on FB and went to the site to check it out. Surprisingly light on information.
Quoted from PantherCityPins:Let me translate this for you into actual numbers and see whether your opinion changes:
350,000,000 US citizens x 70% infection rate in an uncontrolled spread (this is what it would take to get to herd immunity) = 245,000,000 cases.
Current best guess mortality rate is around 0.5% so 245 million cases x 0.5% mortality = 1,225,000 deaths.
So, your statement would then say: "To close down an entire economy the size of the US to save 1.2 million lives is pure insanity..."
Still feel that way?
Virus spreading that fast would overwhelm the health system and increase the death rate from inability to provide care. People dying in hallways.
Also no one ever, ever, ever has said to close 100% of the economy, everywhere, until the vaccine is here. It's a straw man argument so people can push herd immunity, magical thinking, denial, buyers remorse or whatever.
That being said, the shutdowns have hurt certain people's finances, careers, and businesses in ways they may never fully recover from. The government should absolutely provide more support for those who have been financially impacted.
Quoted from chad:Priest dies after taking doses of moderna vaccine. Death cause unknown but suspect.
https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/philadelphia-priest-dies-after-participating-moderna-covid-vaccine-trial
Here we go with the anti-vaxxers jumping on any scrap of alleged bad news they can find. If we vaccinate millions of people, some are going to have bad stuff happen later. It doesn’t mean it was related to the vaccine. Here is an example based on 10 million.
Deniers on this thread used to be amusing. Now they just seem distressed and piteous. Grasping desperately to anything but the truth. I want to think that most know better (this is my own dissonance smoothing mechanism, lol). But I watched the new Borat movie last night and now I am pretty sure most cannot help themselves. They seem literally defenseless against the social media misinformation inputs they receive.
Are you having a hard time taking Covid seriously? Covid seriously might make it difficult for you to have a hard time.
The UK will start administering the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine this week. 50 hospitals will distribute 40 million doses (20m people x2 jabs each). Nursing home residents, health care workers, and people over 80 will be first in line. With a population of 67 million, this will be a super start for them. Will be interesting to see how long it takes for them to distribute that initial load.
Quoted from bobmathuse:I know from whence I speak:
From MedRxiv:
An N95 respirator blocked 99% of the cough aerosol, a medical grade procedure mask blocked 59%, a 3-ply cotton cloth face mask blocked 51%, and a polyester neck gaiter blocked 47% as a single layer and 60% when folded into a double layer.
My comment was further in regard to the fact that many non-N95 masks are not worn correctly; I know, I see it every time I go out. It's hard to wear an N95 wrong because of how it goes on your face.
IMO, 47%-60% is a pretty poor level of protection. At 99%, you can encounter dozens of people for less risk than a single cloth mask encounter. Cloth is better than nothing, yes, but too many people treat it like it's at that 99% level rather than its true 50% level and act sloppy.
I for one am thankful the disagreements have moved on from mask necessity to mask quality! Progress!!
Quoted from o-din:Yes, they are starting to distribute doses of these experimental vaccines in the UK this week. Fortunately, I was able to have a conversation with my daughter this weekend who is stationed over there with her military husband.
I just recommended to do some research and perhaps wait until many other human guinea pigs have already gotten stabbed and see how it goes, considering we are almost a year into this pandemic and she hasn't even had a sniffle. Plus, it being such a rush job and that no successful vaccine has ever been made for any coronavirus yet. And who knows the longterm or even short term effects of it yet.
She's pretty smart and has already stated that is her position. Her husband may not have any choice in the matter though. I, personally, will not be getting one. Ever. Even if stimulus money or anything else is dependent on it as is already rumored. Freedom of choice not to be some medical experiment is still out there, at least in our country, no matter how much pressure or guilt trips others might try to force on you. And, if anybody does decide they will get one, that will be their choice and I will not criticize them for that.
Dibs on O-din's vaccine. I will take it right now!
Quoted from PokerJake:My family and I drove the 35 minutes to Wisconsin to enjoy dinner and drinks. We met up with some of my extended family and had about 20 of us head to another restaurant. It felt great to be out and about, none of us are high risk, oldest one is 56 and in great health. It's sad Minnesota is going to give up potential income and force closures to Wisconsin for nothing. Planning to head back over the river on Friday.
This is why we can't have nice things right now.
Screen Shot 2020-12-08 at 7.55.25 AM (resized).pngQuoted from PokerJake:My family and I drove the 35 minutes to Wisconsin to enjoy dinner and drinks. We met up with some of my extended family and had about 20 of us head to another restaurant. It felt great to be out and about, none of us are high risk, oldest one is 56 and in great health. It's sad Minnesota is going to give up potential income and force closures to Wisconsin for nothing. Planning to head back over the river on Friday.
Bravo for you 'low riskers' supporting the economy and whooping' it up with a good time. FWIW, at this point it isn't about whether you will survive the disease. It's about maintaining hospital capacity and the safety/sanity of frontline healthcare workers. Your story might be a slap in the face to HCWs in MN and WI.
Retired HCWs are being asked to come out of retirement and help because there just aren't enough people to take care of the sick. Some of these retired HCWs have answered the call and died from Covid. There are tons of these stories, but here is one: https://people.com/health/retired-nurse-dies-after-getting-covid-from-student/
While I am on it, here are a few other things we shouldn't do:
Tell the Lifeguards that you are a strong swimmer, so the riptide warning doesn't apply to you.
Tell the Smoke Jumpers you know all about fire safety, so you can ignore the campfire ban.
Tell the Search and Rescue team you can hike alone without a map in the backcountry bc you have a good sense of direction and super survival skills.
Tell FEMA that you like to 'ride out the storm' like your daddy did one time and you know all about hurricanes.
Quoted from o-din:Funny. Yeah, I don't get all the downvotes on that post (actually I do), but I was just quoting what I saw on the news. 100 days should do it.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/biden-call-for-masks-first-100-days-in-office-inauguration/
There is more to the 100 day plan than that. It's just a start. You may not have read past the catchy, but dumb headline. Messaging could certainly use some work, but at least it's an actual plan that includes experts in the various fields. He's put quite a team together.
Quoted from screaminr:With around 16,000 tests a day with zero positive cases , 0 people in hospital and no traces in the sewage , I don't know what more you can do .
You should try being positive , you never know you just might like it .
Lots of other countries would love to be in our position .
Ludicrous, everyone knows testing creates cases.
I understand we're getting trolled on the 100 day plan thing, but I am always glad to toss a few kibble if I think it may help. Here is some detail of what the new administration wants to accomplish in the first 100 days: (source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/biden-covid-100-days-plan/2020/12/08/16e0a47e-3965-11eb-98c4-25dc9f4987e8_story.html)
- 100 million vaccinations - unclear if this meant 100m people or 50m w/2 shots each
- Include teachers in the initial vaccination plans (after HCWs and long term care residents/workers) to help open schools safely, majority of schools back open and in person the first 100 days
- Include FUNDING to schools to help them open safely - no school has any budget for this
- Masks mandated to the extent federal gov't can mandate - federal buildings, interstate transportation - buses, trains, planes, etc
- Appeal to all to wear masks, although the feds cannot mandate everyone wear them
- Accelerate testing, improve PPE supply chain, and vaccine distribution infrastructure
- Named most of the new team including naming Fauci the Chief Medical Advisor on Covid-19, Fauci's helped develop the 100 day plan
Most new administrations talk about their 'first 100 days' plan and this one is no different. The 100 day emphasis has nothing to do with how long anyone should expect to wear a mask.
Quoted from MrBally:It's only a dolla.... I mean It's only another 100 days. Problem is that it has been 250 days already as I have done my part and wore a mask even where not required. Another 40 days til the hundred day mandate means almost 400 days of fun.
I've done my part and things are getting worse in the Midwest. I say open restaurants back to 50% occupancy since the mask idea now seems like a farce.
Masks aren’t working as good as they should bc of non-compliance, poor mask technique, and poorly constructed masks. We need mandates, PSA’s for mask education, and freely available high quality masks. Should have had it for 9 months now.
Thanksgiving travel cases are just starting to hit the hospitals. 3000 people a day are dying right now. No amount of ‘opening up’ policy gets me into a restaurant, movie theater, pinball event, public restroom, etc.
Quoted from Atari_Daze:Has this been posted, if so, my apologies for duplicating.
If not, I'd appreciate pinball gizzard's take:
https://rairfoundation.com/warning-renowned-virologist-sucharit-bhakdi-warns-against-hastily-created-gene-altering-coronavirus-vaccine-video/
We have all probably seen it in one form or another:
Writing for Foreign Policy, Tyson Barker described Bhakdi as a prominent example from a "crop of debunked but credentialed so-called experts minting conspiracy theories and undermining fact-based information".[29] The German non-profit Correctiv fact-checked one of Bhakdi's YouTube videos, and found a number of problematic claims, including the claim that any COVID-19 vaccine would be "pointless", and that the virus posed no more threat than influenza.[30]
Quoted from Jaybird815:I know what his point was, but why? It’s unrealistic to think that you or I will be changing anyone’s mind on vaccines. At this point in the game people’s minds are made up one way or another. So I’ll just worry about what I can control, and that’s me.
I get the sentiment. But there are still people on the bubble out there. People teetering on the edge of science and conspiracy theory. It's important to let people know where you stand on these issues, because the conspiracy theory idiots have made their claim on some of the undecideds of late with their sexy videos and memes.
Wow, You guys think I am pro-mask? Take a listen to Tom.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/13492291/listen-tom-cruise-covid-rant-mission-impossible/
Quoted from seeburg220:What would the punishment be?
Death? Already checked that box.
Jail time? Rotting corpse in a cell would draw attention.
Fines? Can't collect from the dead.
How about a law named after him? That would give future offenders a Scarlett Letter of sorts.
Civil suit against his estate for infections incurred in other passengers by lying to board plane.
Quoted from Luckydogg420:I like your meme, but this does speak to a bigger problem of people not understanding the death numbers. Dying WITH covid and dying FROM covid are 2 very different things, but both equal a covid attributed death.
It is diffiCult to explain this to some people. Especially when they don't want to know.
Quoted from Daditude:I just received some absolutely gut-wrenching news. A friend of mine has passed away. He was a very young man, and I was told he had a lot of breathing problems and shortness of breath in his last couple of days. He had asthma and it looks like he caught covid. He was 23, and his body was found on Christmas morning. His name was Zach.
Please keep his family in your thoughts and prayers.
So sorry for your loss, terrible to lose someone so young.
Quoted from oldskool1969:You mean don’t agree
It would be awesome if these were simple matters of disagreement to be debated. I wish they were.
Quoted from oldskool1969:Oh no, Dr Fauci has admitted to lying to suit an agenda! Regarding his advice on herd immunity and wearing of masks. I won't post it here as I will get banned for a certain topic.
Shocking.
Quarantine the sick ( ie; me ) and let the world turn again.
Its obvious that shutdowns aren't working and the people are getting sick of being told what to do. Peoples lively hoods are at stake.
Mental illness, financial hard ship WILL kill more people than the virus soon.
It is heartbreaking to watch.
No conspiracy hey? Just blatant lies.
You don't get banned here for sharing actual information. As he and others received more information, the herd immunity goal posts did and will move. They still don't know everything. Here is the article: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/24/health/herd-immunity-covid-coronavirus.html
330,000 plus dead from the virus. More than 1 in 1000 people in our country dead from Covid. And lots suffering from financial and mental stresses. It is tough in every direction.
Conspiracy theory rants or misinformation debunked and de-platformed on a private website ≠ censorship.
If you need a safe space for that junk there are plenty of outlets available. Heck, you guys could have a wild PM thread going amongst yourselves and not be so upset.
Quoted from oldskool1969:this is NOT the article, keep searching
It is the information about Fauci's stance from an interview with Fauci.
If you have other info that is true, credibly sourced, and adds to our understanding of the issue, please share it.
My brother (who is an MD) just got the Pfizer vaccine. No issues. Says he read up on it prior and looks really good, very low incidence of problems.
His biggest concern? The amount of deliberate disinformation out there about it that might prevent enough people from taking it.
He likely doesn't care that it's not true.
But if true, that would make dining out more enjoyable eventually!
Wow, Boris just announced new national lockdown in UK, effective immediately. To lift in mid-February - if things go well. Skyrocketing cases due to the new more transmissible strain.
If our leaders had their eye on the ball here, we would be doing something similar in areas.
Quoted from Tuukka:It is six weeks, not six months.
I believe they are doing this to prevent the swamping of their hospital system. Here is what is happening in LA: https://abc7news.com/los-angeles-hospitals-la-hospital-waiting-times-covid-19-coronavirus/9363901/
Don't wanna read the article, here is a summary:
Ambulances are being told not to transport trauma patients - victims of heart attacks, gunshot wounds, car crashes - to the hospital if they can't be resuscitated in the field.
Patients who aren't facing a life-threatening emergency are waiting 12-18 hours in waiting rooms just to be seen in the ER.
Ambulances are waiting for hours just to offload patients at hospitals.
Hospitals are running out of oxygen.
Hospitals are setting up cots in parking lots to take in patients.
Providers are generally reimbursed for all tests that are deemed necessary - positive or negative.
I would venture to say the majority of all tests (in all categories, not just COVID) performed are negative. And if hospitals were only paid for the positive ones, they would go broke.
You may have bad information from your sister.
Look, if you are gonna bring conspiracy theories to this thread, try not to suck at it. Be entertaining. This is a tough and demanding audience and we bore easily. The Gilligan guy is pretty good, study his work, but don't copy.
Talk about the Lizard People, 6G, Bilderberg, or Opus Dei. Bring a link, meme, or video to support your bogus claim.
This is not Facebook, we have standards here.
Quoted from cnuts13:a question in curiosity is a conspiracy theory? My sister is a nurse. the hospital is compensated for every positive test. What conspiracy?
Quoted from BillySastard:https://abcnews.go.com/Health/capitol-hill-riot-prove-covid-19-superspreader-event/story?id=75134968
No surprise here, but the recent coup attempt will more than likely be a massive superspreader.
Masks would have helped those nitwits in more ways than one, lol.
If you are looking to get vaccinated but aren’t in the right category - check to see if there is a standby list.
Our County health dept has a lottery at the end of the day to make sure any vaccine leftover from the days appointments goes into an arm and isn’t wasted. We just email them each day and they randomly select from that pool each day (today is the first day here) the number of people to match up with the leftover doses.
Quoted from MrBally:Just flew back from Las Vegas after driving out there to deliver a car (weather was great for the drive on I-80, 76 & 70 to I-15). Utah was great, "Masks suggested" on the doors of several businesses. Some did require them though. I wore mine until I was eating and drinking.
Visited the new Circa Casino-Resort in downtown LV on Saturday. The stadium sportsbook was awesome. Packed and little social distancing. But everyone wore masks except while drinking. And the booze was flowing...
Only difference in Nevada from a few months ago was that you need a "reservation" to dine in at restaurants. You can usually make a reservation and be seated immediately except at busy times as seating is limited.
Hope you bet on Bama to cover - Roll Tide Roll!
Quoted from RTR:If you are looking to get vaccinated but aren’t in the right category - check to see if there is a standby list.
Our County health dept has a lottery at the end of the day to make sure any vaccine leftover from the days appointments goes into an arm and isn’t wasted. We just email them each day and they randomly select from that pool each day (today is the first day here) the number of people to match up with the leftover doses.
Sadly, we did not win the vaccine lottery today, but we were both ready to go.
Does anyone else think we are living inside a Black Mirror episode?
Quoted from PantherCityPins:Second vaccine done today! Is this the one with the tracking chip in it or was it the first one?
<checks tablet> Are you in drive thru line at Chik-Fil-A right now?
Quoted from PantherCityPins:Can confirm shot #2 has more side effects, at least for me. Shot #1 was really just a sore arm for a day. Shot #2 I got yesterday around noon and had some chills last night and overall aching and headache today. Still at work though.
Have read a couple of things that say NSAIDs for post vaccine side effects might harm antibody production and that one should use acetaminophen instead. Any truth to this?
I'm against conspiracy theories, but some are too entertaining not to mention. Rabbi warns that Covid vaccine might make you gay. He does not say what it will do if you are already gay.
Quoted from misfitdart:Any thoughts on the deaths in Norway after vaccines?
Here is a pretty good article on it. Seems to be related to the frailty of the recipient and maybe some coincidental deaths as well. A tough decision in that population. https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/18/health/covid-vaccine-pfizer-deaths-norway-intl/index.html
Quoted from oldskool1969:My experience re Vaccine.
Today I had phone meetings with all my primary care providers.
Dentist, Rheumatologist, G.P., Surgeon Osteo.
This is my yearly checkup which was done via phone due to the beer virus/ government not allowing in person visits unless absolutely necessary.
I asked them wether I should receive the COVID vaccine as I do the cold/flu shot every year. I am NOT an anti vaccine freak.
All advised me that it is way too early in the process to safely advise me.
They all shared the same concerns of how rushed it was and the shocking side effects it has produced in some, how long it lasts, how long it is effective and why some react and some don't. Also stating that they too would not take even if strongly advised by their peers until satisfactory reports prove the effectiveness.
In saying this though, here in Western Australia we are geologically lucky by being remote and having enforced border closures early on in the epidemic.
In fact life is fairly normal apart from advising government where you are via mobile app all the time.
Don't be pushed into having the so called vaccine, ask your care givers what is right for you.
You SHOULD have a choice and base it upon your situation.
You live on Gilligans Island. It wouldn’t surprise me if your Dentist, GP, rheumatologist, and osteo surgeon were all the same guy.
Quoted from PantherCityPins:You mean this guy?[quoted image]
LOL - I think the professor would be for the vaccine - a true man of science!
Quoted from oldskool1969:That is just being a jerk. Have a good look at yourself and ask was it worth typing?
Everyone knows the Professor doesn't do dentistry.
How dare you sir? Everyone knows that in Season 2, episode 10 ("Hi Fi Gilligan") Gilligan's teeth got knocked around and a filling started receiving radio transmissions. The Professor was able to use the transmission to receive an important weather report that saved them all. Sort of like dentistry.
That's not enough? Well how about Season 3 episode 29 - "Bang Bang Bang" - A mysterious crate of malleable plastic washes ashore and they make stuff out it - including the Professor making fillings for Gilligan's teeth? Luckily saliva loosened them and he safely sneezed them out. The Professor then replaced them with copper. Definitely dentistry.
Also - I re-read your post. You wrote it like you had 4 different doctors that were just against the vaccine bc of the vaccine safety in general. No clues that it had to do with just their concern for you. If anything your post underscores the need for all who can take the vaccine safely, should take it. Herd immunity protects people like you who have a legit health reason for not taking it.
It’s sad when anyone passes, but keep in mind that as we vaccinate more of the population, there will invariably be people who die in close proximity to their vaccine date. It will look even worse than the example below since we are targeting elderly, frail, and sick populations.
Quoted from o-din:This wasn't pretty either. Over 100 National Guardsmen test positive after being forced out of The Capitol after the inauguration and packed like sardines to sleep in a parking garage.
[quoted image]
Holy shit, none wearing masks! Good catch odin.
Quoted from PantherCityPins:The immediate cause of death in that case would be something like progressive hypoxic respiratory failure. Underneath that you would list the specific causes that led to the immediate cause. COVID would be listed in those diagnoses. Underneath the section where the diagnoses leading directly to death are listed is a separate section for diagnoses that contributed to death but didn't immediately cause it. In the case of COVID you would list things like diabetes, obesity, hypertension, etc. here. These are diagnoses that may have made the person more likely to die from COVID but didn't directly lead to death.
I guess the problem is that laypeople get way too caught up on the "immediate cause of death". In the majority of cases there isn't one single problem that leads to someone's death, it's usually a group of problems that work together, the obvious exception being something like trauma or a gunshot wound. That's why it was so hilarious to see the COVID deniers get all worked up when they saw the CDC data on COVID deaths. They thought they'd found some grand conspiracy when COVID wasn't listed as the only diagnosis leading to death. It's not a conspiracy, it's how things are. Death certificates are filled out to try and show what sequence of events led to someone's death. Just because COVID isn't listed as the immediate cause of death doesn't mean the person didn't die from COVID. That's just misunderstanding how death certificates are filled out. Death certificates are also much more complicated and detailed with the computer entry systems. People think of the old single page death certificate where a doctor just wrote "pneumonia" as the cause of death and signed it. It doesn't work that way anymore.
Think of it this way, let's say you get shot in the stomach. You bleed out and die. Ok, the immediate cause of death would be listed as something like refractory hypovolemic shock. Basically you bled out and your blood pressure dropped and you died. That was the immediate reason you ceased to live. The gunshot contributed to that immediate cause and would be listed underneath it. That's why "gunshot wound" may not be the IMMEDIATE cause of death in those cases, it is listed underneath whatever the event was that immediately caused the patient to die. That doesn't mean that your family isn't going to say you died from a gunshot wound or that you didn't die from the gunshot. It's just a more detailed way of describing what led to someone's death. Now then, let's say you get shot in the stomach but you get to the hospital before you bleed out and have emergency surgery. Unfortunately you later develop a severe infection from the gunshot and die from that. Ok, in that case your immediate cause of death would be "septic shock" and gunshot wound would still be listed in the diagnoses underneath it. See, if you just said everyone died of a gunshot wound and left it at that you wouldn't be able to tell how many people bled out vs how many people died of infection later. It's more specific to list the sequence of events that led to the death and that's why death certificates are filled out the way they are now vs the old way.
Some of this also depends on the doctor filling out the certificate. Some doctors are more detailed than others. Afterwards when the public health department publishes how many people died from gunshot wounds they will do a search through all the death certificates and pick out the ones that have gunshot wound listed in the diagnoses leading to death. They clump these things together in the statistic so they make more sense to the public at large. Otherwise you'd have a ton of different specific "immediate" causes listed and you wouldn't be able to tell as much about how many people died from gunshots. Same thing with COVID.
As to the rest of your post, I would say the 100 days of masking may have been chosen as a timeframe that would give vaccinations time to make a difference. Of course that depends on people actually getting the vaccine, if enough people don't get it then there won't be as much of an improvement in the case numbers after 100 days. Plus everyone likes to talk about a President's first 100 days in office for some reason so the number might have been chosen for that reason as well.
I'm actually optimistic that if say 50-60% of the population is vaccinated by this summer we might see something close to a "normal" fall 2021.
Very thankful to have you on this thread. Thank you for both your patience and for sharing your expertise.
Quoted from rwmech5:Yes strange how the case numbers etc have vanished off CNNs main screen too.
If you can't find Covid info on CNN you may need new glasses or hearing aid batteries.
Quoted from o-din:I watched this report and found it very interesting about "gain of function" experiments in Wuhan that Obama banned funding for in 2014, yet Fauci continued the funding anyway. Take the source of this video with a grain of salt, but a lot of info here.
https://video.foxnews.com/v/6227902415001#sp=show-clips
The moratorium on the gain of function experiments was lifted by the NIH in 2017. It wasn’t a rogue Fauci shunting black money to illegal labs. Sounds like there are some more conspiracy theories going around Fox.
After reading this article, it wouldn’t surprise me if it were being studied in a lab and got out. Also wouldn’t surprise me if it just jumped from a bat to human in the market. One of the most alarming (and contradictory) paragraphs was about stuff happening right here in the good old USA:
“Statistics on the number of breaches in the 1500 or so high containment laboratories in the USA are hard to come by. Serious events are extremely rare, ones that result in an infection in the community are virtually unknown.”
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(18)30006-9/fulltext
1 week later
Quoted from cottonm4:Here is an article with a little bit of info. on how the vaccine distribution is working, or getting started to work. I agree with Connecticut Governor on his statement that The Feds should distribute the vaccine to each state's governors. This puts the Feds with 50 locations to ship to. And them let the governors sort it out inside their own state.
As for prioritizing: "There's just a lot of confusion," he said. " Is a restaurant worker less essential than a teacher, who's less essential than a daycare worker?"
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/how-this-governor-says-bidens-vaccine-rollout-compares-to-trumps-195330651.html
And this one talks about disabled people are getting pushed lower in line. I am glad I am not the one who has to make the decisions on who comes to the front of the line; Or who gets pushed to the bottom.
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/put-life-hold-disability-groups-162408978.html
With the increase in supply coming and expanding to pharmacy roll out, everyone seems to be forecasting a surplus of available vaccine beginning as soon as April. I think everyone that wants one will be able to get one before summer for sure and maybe by April/May.
1 week later
Downplaying the virus by blaming our supposedly poor overall health as a country for all the deaths greatly over simplifies things.
It is also a strategy employed by some to say that COVID is over-hyped, vaccines aren’t necessary for heathy people, medical experts aren’t credible, mask wearing isn’t necessary, etc.
Anything that kills 500k people in a year is a BFD in my book. And it wasn’t half a million people with a foot in the grave that just needed a little push either. Many who survived the disease will have life long consequences.
Quoted from smalltownguy2:I would be willing to bet money on the fact that Jacobsen v Massachusetts will be called into question before the US Supreme Court with regard to mandating vaccinations. This is going to be a very hot topic in late 2021/early 2022.
Yet you cannot deny the fact that at least a statistically significant portion of the deaths attributed to COVID-19 were poor outcomes due to the presence of an underlying risk factor from a chronic health condition - type 2 diabetes, heart disease, obesity, COPD, you get the drift.
The great majority of our country is fat and stubborn. And we've paid the price for it.
My wife and I are both higher risk. We are in our 50’s. She has severe asthma and I have inherited
high blood pressure, controlled well with meds and lifestyle. Both of us exercise, eat well, don’t drink much, and have normal weight. She could probably whip at least half the asses on this thread on an uphill hike.
If we die or are severely debilitated by Covid-19, we would fall into a co-morbid category, which as you can see - does not tell our story. Many people are pretty healthy but carry a risk factor. I’m just not seeing the point of bashing people for their risk factors. COVID is the problem, not my high blood pressure. My grandmother who blessed me with hypertension lived to 93 with it.
Now, the stubborn part? Sure, bash away if you are referring to anti-science, anti-vax, anti-mask choices people make that increase their risk. Stubborn is almost always choice. Risk factors not as much.
Quoted from screaminr:China is definitely making an example of us .
With them blocking and putting huge tariffs on so many of our products amongst other things .
Our exporters are looking for other markets now and that's a good thing , we are way too reliant on China . I'm sure the USA will buy a lot of our products , we have some great stuff ,
buy buy bye
What ya’ll got? I’ll buy some.
Hey smalltownguy2 - just curious, are you gonna get the vaccine? Freedom to choose aside and totally because I am genuinely curious, would you prefer that others choose to get it?
Do you want your dentist and hygienist to be vaccinated? Your barber? Your doctor when he makes you say ahhh? Your optometrist? Close talkers?
People in your social groups - church, moose lodge, synagogue, book club, mosque, kids hockey group, choir?
I’m trying to figure out if this a genuine freedom of choice argument or just roundabout anti-vaccine.
Quoted from Spyderturbo007:So for those of you that support forced vaccination, where does it stop? What's the cutoff for forcing someone to be vaccinated? Should we force vaccinations for the Flu? What about HPV, HepA-HepB, Encephalitis, Typhoid fever, etc....where does it stop?
There hasn't been anyone on this thread making an argument for forced vaccinations. It's a straw man argument tossed out by some here who have been critical of masking/vaccinations/distancing/pandemic response too strong/etc for who knows what reason? 
Wife and I got Moderna a few weeks ago and had sore arms, achy/fatigue for a day or two and are eagerly awaiting our second shot next week. I would take any shot the FDA has authorized - JnJ, Moderna, or Pfizer.
Side note - I have all Apple products, but have developed a sudden interest in SurfacePro for some reason. /s
Quoted from supermatt:I would not care one bit if the people you mentioned were vaccinated or not. Nor would I feel it’s my right to know if they were. It’s a personal choice and should remain that way. I have no intention of getting this vaccine unless they make it almost impossible to live any kind of normal life. I am not an anti-vaxer either. I believe in all the childhood vaccines as myself, my wife and kids have all had them. I just view this differently. I’ve never gotten a flu shot in my life either. An earlier post comparing not being vaccinated and driving 100 mph through your town is comparing apples and oranges. People know this virus is out there and can take the necessary steps to protect themselves if they feel the need whereas a car traveling 100 mph through the center of town will leave a split second of time to protect yourself.
Super, I will mark you down for 'no preference'. Unaffiliated, as Everett T McGill would say. My preference is that all people would choose to vaccinate and some are morally obligated to do so. Vaccinated against everything? No, but a vaccine against a virus that can be deadly, can be carried/spread asymptomatically, actively pandemic, and spreads easily/aggressively - yes, some people are morally obligated to protect people they come into contact with. Masking, washing hands, distancing, and vaccinations go beyond personal choice for some people.
These arguments come down to personal freedom/autonomy/choice vs greater good of the collective (resistance is futile, lol). Herd immunity is a collective effort. A few have good medical reason preventing them from vaccination and nothing is 100%, so the vaccine will not protect a few people who do get it. Herd immunity protects those 2 groups of people. People who choose not to vaccinate also might be protected by herd immunity, but if enough people choose not to vaccinate, it can screw up the herd immunity and contribute to the continued mutation of the virus.
I'm not for forced vaccinations. But, since we can't trust people to do the right things all the time, we utilize carrots and sticks. I am, in some cases, for required vaccinations and this is one of them. No required vaccination? No problem, you just can't engage in the desired activity until the pandemic is sufficiently over. We collectively choose (and many times we individually choose) to put the group over the individual in lots of areas of our lives.
FTR - If I offended anyone with my flippant manner, just know I am all for cheaper, widely available alternative treatments to work. Many actual clinical studies have been done on them or are in progress - HCQ, famotidine, ivermectin, oleandrin, quercetin, zinc, D, C, etc. I take Zinc, D, and C everyday myself bc it prob can't hurt and may help.
My problem is the huge appetite of some groups/celebs/politicians to declare these treatments effective in the absence of clinical trials, touting 'clinical papers' spread around social media, etc as proof the pandemic could be stopped and the economy could reopen if only blah blah blah.
"Big Pharma" is not stopping pursuit of these studies. See https://www.covid19treatmentguidelines.nih.gov/antiviral-therapy/ivermectin/ and https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-drugs-treatments.html for great information on trials. NIH is spreading money around like drunken sailors on just about anything.
The FLCCC guys seem earnest to me, but they aren't doing research/trials. Their Math+ protocol that includes ivermectin, a statin, zinc, D, famotidine, and melatonin (6 things that prob won't hurt and may help) - also include heparin (blood thinner) and methylprednisone (steroid) - two things that have been proven to work. Their claims about the rest of the cocktail are unproven as far as I can tell.
1 week later
Back in my day we all smoked no filter pall malls. Even kids and the people who didn’t smoke. We smoked in restaurants, church, school, bed, buses, airplanes, and cars. We cut the seat belts out of our cars and installed extra ashtrays for the kids.
We had brown liquor, beef meat, and fried potatoes for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. With a big ashtray in the middle of table. Everyone was much happier and healthier.
Not sure if anyone mentioned the Eli Lilly study coming out a couple days ago. Their combo antibody therapy of bamlanivimab and etesevimab was shown to be very effective (87%) in high risk patients in preventing death and hospitalization. It's been known to be effective for a while, but this was more proof and it had access issues that may have prevented people who could have benefited from receiving it even though the EUA was granted. If you or someone you know gets Covid and is high risk, you might benefit from discussing with your MD right away about it. I think you need to take it early.
1 week later
Quoted from Daditude:I don't mean to ruffle any feathers, but i am debating getting the vaccine. For those that don't know, here is my story:
I am very conflicted on the pandemic. I have known numerous people that have had it. My 88 year-old great uncle had it and didnt even know (zero symptoms)...and a close personal friend that got it and died quickly (he was 26, in fantastic shape, and we often played disc golf). Dont be fooled...this virus is different for everyone.
I have also personally had coronavirus. It was insanely mild. I only had symptoms for about 2 days. Extremely mild symptoms. I am also in good shape (5'11 and 170 lbs, i am 40 years old), so i think that helps.
I am a front line worker, and i can get the vaccine at anytime, but i would have to wait the 90 days (since i have had it within about a month) to get vaccinated.
On one hand...i dont ever get sick. I never take a flu shot. I have already had it and it was mild. I dont feel there has been enough testing on the vaccination, and i am concerned about the longer term effects.
On the other hand...i am a front line worker with a family. I have a wife and 3 kids. I don't want any of them to get it. I know it can effect people differently. Moving forward...it is a possibilty my antigens wear off and i could get it in 6 months or so.
I am not sure if i should get it or not. I guess i need to call my buddy Pinball_Gizzard
My brother is a radiologist. He is now seeing studies of younger people that “had no problem” with the virus, but now some are having weird neurological symptoms. He believes them to be related to the virus attacking the very small blood vessels that supply sensory nerves. Brother was not high on his adult children (18-24) getting the vaccine over the summer and fall of 2020 bc of risk/reward for younger people, but is now urging all 3 to get vaccinated after seeing what is happening to some asymptomatics.
My daughter and her boyfriend both got Covid. Mild to moderate symptoms. Daughter is feeling 99% but has lost a significant amount of her smell/taste sense.
Your Covid may or may not help you against variants and the vaccines seem to be effective against them so far.
Wife and I completed the Moderna shots. Both of us got a fever, aches for a day or 2. That did kind of suck, but took some Tylenol and just let our immune systems get their workouts. Now we can lick doorknobs and inhale sneeze clouds in crowded elevators with no worry! J/K, we widened our bubbles, but are still masking up, washing hands, and being careful. Lots of our loved ones and friends haven't had the vaccine yet and don't want to unknowingly expose them. We also like to be good eggs.
Seriously - you can get pretty achy from the second shot, but only take Tylenol. I heard ibuprofen and similar can impede the immune response.
Quoted from gweempose:A friend of mine just sent me this, and I'm not sure what to make of it. What the guy is saying is pretty scary, but it seems to go directly against the view held by a majority of the scientific community. In general, I tend to value the collective view over the view of a single individual, especially when science is concerned. What do you guys think? Is there any merit to what this guy is saying, or is he just a nutjob?
https://fos-sa.org/2021/03/12/open-letter-to-the-who-immediately-halt-all-covid-19-mass-vaccinations-geert-vanden-bossche-dmv-phd/
Difficult to find a lot of info about this guy Bossche, but his open letter is being widely picked up and promoted by anti-vax groups. If you have some virology credentials and want to be famous, it's pretty easy to write up a contrarian opinion in a non-scientific paper and the anti-vax sites handle your distribution and publicity for free. The fos-sa site was created June/2020 and appears to be focused on anti-vax and 'natural' herd immunity benefits. Here is a good breakdown of his letter, who is promoting it, and why it is sketchy:
Quoted from ForceFlow:Video explaining efficacy rates, and why J&J's vaccine is lower than the pfizer and moderna vaccines:
That's a good video, thanks for posting. Wish it could be explained like this to everyone.
Quoted from DaveH:My sister died tonight. Covid beat the living shit out of her. I had posted the quote above 13 days ago. And since then it just ripped her apart. Hey, did you know Covid also can destroy your kidneys? So close to the end of this pandemic. We have a fucking vaccine, but we just couldn’t get it to people fast enough.
Whatever the hell you are doing to try to prevent catching Covid, do more. More than 1500 people died from Covid yesterday. Today, one died, and I couldn’t give a crap about how many others died today. She’s the second person close to me that has been killed by Covid. Fuck. And if you’re thinking of doing something dumb, just wait until we get more people vaccinated. Covid doesn’t give a shit about your rights to make your own decisions. Wear a fucking mask dipshit.
Dave, so sorry for your loss. Thinking of you and your family.
1 week later
Wife and I had both Moderna shots. After first one we both felt a little fatigued for a couple days, sore arms for 3 or 4 days.
Second shot - 2 days of every ache and pain in my 54 yo body turned up a few notches, low grade fever and some chills towards the end. Tylenol every 6 hours for 36 hours or so and then it broke and I was 100%. Took my wife about 3 days.
1 week later
Lots of things have an increased risk of blood clots. Sitting for prolonged periods increases your risk of blood clots. Covid has a pretty serious blood clot risk too. Looks like at least some of blood clots post vaccine may be from the vaccine but maybe not all of them. I had a friend in school that died from a blood clot related to taking birth control pills, a known risk accepted by many.
Quoted from cottonm4:This is not good. I figured since I was vaccinated, that I could still get infected. But I thought dying was not supposed to be part of the package.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/04/14/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccines-cdc/index.html
"About 5,800 people who have been vaccinated against coronavirus have become infected anyway, the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention tells CNN.
Some became seriously ill and 74 people died, the CDC said. It said 396 -- 7% -- of those who got infected after they were vaccinated required hospitalization.
The vaccines are freaking awesome and super protective, but not 100%. It’s why we should encourage as many people as possible to vaccinate. It’s why it’s still important to mask up, distance, and take this seriously. It’s why we shouldn’t listen to people who are telling us differently.
Quoted from roffels:Can we?
Not only that, the "proof" is literally just a piece of cardboard that's reasonably easy to fake.
It's why we should have demanded chips!
I guess we better hang onto the proof of vaccine cards, especially if you want preferred seating at Dodgers games!
Quoted from Oaken:Indeed. Couldn’t ask for better timing than this formal grand jury indictment today:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdfl/pr/florida-family-indicted-selling-toxic-bleach-fake-miracle-cure-covid-19-and-other
Also Florida, because of course.
They weren't wrong. You drink enough of that MMS shit and you def won't have to worry about Covid anymore...
Quoted from Trogdor:While I empathize with your situation, I fear the group think has disabled your ability to empathize. Are you really thinking about the benefit of others or your girlfriend which is basically you? Being high risk and with a science background, I couldn’t recommend to my adult children to run out and get vaccinated. There is an FDA approval process in the US that has been refined over decades- we circumvented it. I got vaccinated, but from the data available- it is a risk. If they research the vaccines and get vaccinated- great, I hope. If they would rather wait and hang outside when they visit- I understand. Will I be dining indoors or hanging in bars before 2022? No.
Isn’t shunning masks or getting vaccinated fighting for freedom? It just isn’t our definition of freedom. “You must wear a mask in public, you cannot go to church, you cannot associate with friends, if you get sick- we need info on all those you came in contact with and where”- is that freedom? It sounds more like 1984. It is a frightful corrosion of what it meant to be American, and I won’t fault those that take objection to it.
I’ve met quite a few Americans and a lot of families whose loved ones died fighting for someone else’s freedom, they didn’t seem very selfish.
Source for your comment on the risk?
"Isn’t shunning masks or getting vaccinated fighting for freedom?"
No. it is not.
Quoted from gweempose:Your link was behind a paywall for me, but here's a link to another article about it ...
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/florida/articles/2021-04-27/private-florida-school-wont-employ-vaccinated-teachers
This is perhaps one of the most moronic things I have ever read. I swear, sometimes I am truly embarrassed to be an American.
Even The Onion looked at that story and was like, naw can't make that one seem any dumber.
2 very popular 'influencers' in the anti-vax crowd send their kids there.
1 week later
Quoted from Oaken:Guess I am confused either way. By what mechanism is a vaccinated man passing something to a future child?
Wouldn't that be an argument for vaccination? The only thing a man could potentially 'pass along' would be actual Covid after the child is born. A woman could confer antibody protection to the unborn child.
Getting a vaccination might also increase ones chances of finding an intelligent mate to assist in achieving the goal of future children. Seems like anti-vax sentiment would only narrow the field.
Quoted from Jamesays:The other possible problem for some is when most of 1 party is actually getting the vaccine the other party might lose every election because no vaccination card.
That's a risk I might be willing take, lol.
Quoted from Daditude:How does everyone feel about mask wearing in your area?
Should we continue? Stop? Slow down?
I'm curious to know.
There are still some legit reasons to mask up right now, even if vaccinated. If unvaccinated, I would think there are even more. But I think many of the restrictions could be eased. Until there is some good guidance on a vaccinated persons chance of catching and spreading is out, it is tough for some to give up the masking.
Examples - I am keeping my grandkids in a couple of weeks, I don't want to inadvertently get them sick and they cannot get vaccinated quite yet, so I am being more careful (as a vaccinated person) than I normally would. Another is if you have someone immunocompromised in your household. Yet another is if you live or work closely with people who can't or won't get the vaccine.
Bottom line, restrictions will be eased and they should be, but be cool and supportive about others wearing masks, they probably have good reasons.
Quoted from PantherCityPins:Is it just me or does it seem that the same people are:
1. Anti-mask
2. Anti-vaccine
3. Screaming to reopen everything.
As Dr. Evil would say "throw me a fricken bone here".
The funny thing is it’s this group of people that are extending the precautions by not getting vaccinated.
Masks are probably here to stay depending on season and situation. Flu season was absolutely crushed in part from mask wearing. Can't imagine myself walking around in a crowded Trader Joe's in November with people breathing, close talking, coughing, and sneezing without my mask on now!
Quoted from PantherCityPins:How are you going to enforce that? Several states have already outlawed any form of vaccine passport so there is no way to enforce any proof of vaccination.
No need to intrude on anyone's freedom or privacy, just keep a spray bottle of fresh Coronavirus at the entrance. Everyone who wants to attend without a mask gets one spray right in the face. That should keep almost everyone honest.
Quoted from supermatt:My issue does not lie with the elderly or the people that did all the right things and got sick. My problem is with the ones who made the poor lifestyle choices that led to their conditions that our healthcare system is supporting through crippling insurance premiums. The majority of them will just let their meds manage their condition instead of making some better lifestyle changes that just might help them get off the meds. Why should I as someone who eats healthy, works out regularly, maintains a normal weight and doesn’t smoke have to subsidize all the medications and medical procedures for the people that have chosen to do the opposite?
Because that’s how insurance works? This seems a little off topic to me.
I guess any message on masks was destined to be attacked from many angles. Seems like people picked what they wanted/didn’t want to hear. It really appealed to those looking to complain, that might include me, lol.
Treating all the vax’d the same seems premature. I would like have seen some guidance on vax’d but over 70 years old or vax’d but diabetic for example. Surely they have enough breakthrough cases to show that vax’d at 50 isn’t the same protection as 75 years old?
They didn’t treat all areas of the country as the same. What I heard in the message is no federal mandate with a few exceptions and what your state says about it. The states all have different percentages of vax’d populations and currently sick people. Not all businesses were treated the same either. This part of the message was not too bad.
I do like the message of we have plenty of vaccine, it’s available quickly, and if you want to be protected, go get it. If you got it, you should feel confident that you are pretty well protected.
1 week later
Quoted from DCFAN:Maybe happy that the death rate continues to go down and the virus rates are also still going down, but not happy to settle for 500 deaths a day. Thankfully, the vaccines are working obviously.
Hope that didn't come out wrong, I really am super happy that we are down to 500/day and that the trend is going pretty quickly in the right direction. Unbelievably thankful for the vaccines and the effort to get everyone vaccinated.
Just kind of unreal that we feel like we've just about whipped this (but rightly so) and are still losing 3500 people a week. Feels excessive when deaths and serious illness are mostly preventable now. I hope the efforts to get more people vax'd are successful.
Damn, the second deputy in that department to die of Covid in a month. They whole department has been vaccine eligible since January, even had a $500 incentive to do it. The department is going to consider it a death in the line duty - which basically makes it a workers comp death and increases his benefits. If it is considered an occupational hazard for them, makes you wonder why the vaccine is optional.
His death will be attributed to Covid, but what really killed this 33 year old man was anti-vax propaganda. If you read the story, the guy had created a social media bubble that reinforced his poor decision. In my opinion, anti-vaxxers, anti-maskers, and others in this category helped to kill this man and leave a kid with no dad and widow.
Quoted from chad:Federal health officials have verified 226 cases of myocarditis or pericarditis in people ages 30 and younger who have received an mRNA COVID-19 vaccine and are investigating about 250 more reports.
https://www.aappublications.org/news/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-myocarditis-rates-061021
I'm glad those are being reported and they are checking it out. But do you know what poses a much higher risk of myocarditis and pericarditis than the vaccines? Actually contracting Covid-19.
https://www.hcplive.com/view/science-understand-myocarditis-covid-19
Dr. Malone is a legit scientist/MD and has lots of published work in various areas. But promoting himself as THE inventor of mRNA vaccines is a little like Henry Ford claiming to be the inventor of my 2020 F350 Turbo Diesel pick up with heated and cooled seats and satellite radio. Malone's mRNA work seems to have taken place very early - mostly late 1980's. He seems to spend a lot of time talking about how 'his' invention of mRNA vaccines has been uncredited. He also helps create clinical trials of Ivermectin and Famotidine. A casual/headline only reader might believe he had something significant to do with the current vaccine, he did not.
Here is the original article that includes razorsedge chart, written by a non-doctor/scientist, but retweeted/promoted by Malone. https://trialsitenews.com/should-you-get-vaccinated/. This article also uses the discredited, but still promoted, Tucker Carlson VAERS "over 20,000 dead from the vaccine" number. It also suggests that Ivermectin and HCQ type treatments would have prevented 594,000 of the 600,000 deaths from Covid in the USA, if only doctors knew how to administer them and Fauci and big Pharma weren't trying to squash them bc of money to be made or whatever.
So Malone - who vigorously defends himself as normally very pro-vaccine - is now the new darling of the anti-vax crowd. SSDD.
Here are just a few of the things I've learned from the pandemic, no order:
- Covid vaccines are a freaking modern miracle and we are extremely fortunate to have so many brilliant people working on them
- Covid vaccines work and are saving lives on a daily basis in our communities right now
- We were lucky this virus wasn't worse and that we were able to neutralize it with a vaccine this fast
- Some people will literally get sick and possibly die or get others sick bc they believe strongly in bad information
- Politics and medicine don't mix
- We need more investment in Public Health - medicine, epidemiology, pandemic response, first responders, communication, prevention, education, etc
- Science, when unmolested by politics, is not shy about being wrong and changing course when new information comes out
- We should make more things in our own country with American owned companies, maybe even if it costs more
- JIT manufacturing practices are awesome until they aren't
- Conspiracy theorists and purposeful purveyors of perfidious information have zero shame and don't care about the havoc they cause
- Many people have a difficult time identifying actual experts in a given field
- I never really thought about indoor air quality as much as I do now
- Media literacy and logic should be taught in every grade level K-12
Another vote for vaccination vs natural immunity if you still have a choice. Dr. Gottlieb swings right if you care about such things!
Manatee County FL - On May 11 the county commission voted 6-1 to discontinue indoor Covid protocols for county gov employees to "stop ruling people's lives". Their guidance was 'letting people make their own choices' and not following CDC advice of masking for the unvaccinated. Elected officials rhetoric on the vote has aged pretty poorly. https://www.bradenton.com/article251336158.html
Fast forward to June 18 and they had to close an entire building down - an IT staff of 6 - 5 got Covid, 4 were hospitalized, 2 died (one at the hospital, one at home). The only IT staffer that didn't get sick was vaccinated. The other 5 not vaccinated and not elderly. I am afraid we are going to see more outbreaks and preventable tragedies like this as restrictions are lifted. Details:
https://www.bradenton.com/news/coronavirus/article252212853.html
Quoted from pinballjah:This is interesting, although outdated from about a month ago. 13 deaths of fully vaccinated people in Canada. No breakdown by age group.
https://www.vancouverite.com/14000-covid-19-cases-in-vaccinated-canadians-121-deaths/
I have been trying to find some stats for the US and UK on deaths of individuals after being fully vaccinated and after the two week waiting period. If anyone has any links. Thanks.
This article is scary as hell.......until you read it.
1 week later
Quoted from DaveH:That's me! I'm wearing one until someone walks up to me in a store and calls me a "Sheeple". The closest I've gotten was yesterday when someone said "Why are you wearing a mask, I don't have cooties". Needless to say my mask stayed on.
How can there be 10 people in a room, you are the lone mask wearer, but the 9 are somehow the independently thinking non-conformists?
Quoted from Mattyk:I still don’t get why vaccinated people care whether someone chooses to get the vaccine or not. If you have the vaccine you are all set. No need to worry. Live your life
- Detracts from herd immunity of the whole herd.
- Provides opportunities for virus to mutate.
- Provides opportunities for the virus to spread to all unvaccinated (and some vaxxed) people.
- Some people cannot vaccinate for actual real medical reasons.
- Some people don’t produce an immune response when they do vaccinate.
- Many jobs require exposure to people that can result in virus transmission thereby making an anti-vax person’s decision not just their own problem.
- The vaccinated person (in your example) understands they aren’t the only person their choice affects.
Plenty of other reasons. I can explain it to someone, I can’t understand it for them though.
There are still people really vested in talking down the dangers of the virus and talking up the dangers of the vaccine for whatever reason, who knows? They could be victims of bias confirmation, anti-vaxxers, hydroxychloraquiine salesmen, I don't know.
"Have you seen a study for that?" is a phrase you hear used a lot to start their specious arguments. Most people on this thread don't really read or understand study results completely, myself included. Pick some actual experts in the fields and listen to what they say. Current experts I follow include Scott Gottlieb, Fauci, and Tom Frieden. All very accomplished experts in virology, epidemiology, public health, pharmacology, immunology, and they have all served publicly in these capacities to one extent or another. I trust them to "read my studies" better than I trust me.
You can find an 'expert' to tell you about anything you want to hear. There is apparently super money and fame available in abusing your credentials to become a Contrarian Expert in just about any field nowadays but Covid has taken it to a whole nutha level.
Here is an easy to understand study - 99% of current Covid deaths are from unvaccinated people. 250 people a day, 7500 a month that have (mostly) been misinformed (killed?) by the Contrarian Experts. https://apnews.com/article/coronavirus-pandemic-health-941fcf43d9731c76c16e7354f5d5e187
I’m not too worried about travel as a fully vaccinated person taking sensible precautions, but didn’t do cruises or buffets prior to Covid. I think flying is prob safe now, but would wear a good mask in the airport and on the plane.
My wife is high risk from severe asthma (fully vaccinated) and my grandchildren aren’t old enough yet for the vaccine, so I wear a mask when in close quarters for the time being to protect those around me. Because my decisions/actions affect others.
Quoted from cnuts13:This is still a thing? We should do an experiment. New Law of segregation. Anti vaxers and covid deniers on one side of the country. Covid worshipers, mask shamers, people who wouldnt visit elderly family for months, and lockdown lovers. On the other side. Lets see who financially gains the most, and which side dies the most. Should I do a pole?
Yes, you should def do a pole.
Quoted from Pinballs:Trusting the public to be sensible after Covid laws are abolished on 19th July... It might happen [quoted image][quoted image][quoted image][quoted image]
This is the content that keeps me coming back, thank you!
A couple tweets from a freedom loving 24yo anti-vax RN in Louisiana:
"This vaccine has been released using recombinant DNA faster than any vaccine in the world. It manipulates your DNA at the tiniest molecular level. Do. Not. Get. It. It's not safe,"
"Am I the only one thinking they are trying to see how much they can control us? We are a straight-up social experiment."
A news story about her recent (preventable and sad) death from Covid complications:
https://www.theadvocate.com/acadiana/news/coronavirus/article_c4f70fb6-e3de-11eb-95a5-cb7b3f1edb55.html
Louisiana has a spike going on right now and only 35% of the population are vaccinated. The article also highlights a 30yo pastor that died from Covid and doctors from local hospitals describing Covid patients coming in younger, sicker, and unvaccinated. Get vaccinated.
This 24yo vaccine hesitant guy (he wanted to wait a couple of years to see if there are problems with the vaccine) doesn't even count as a death. Dying isn't the only risk. Get vaccinated even if you have to eat some crow! Hell, don't even eat the crow - get vaxxed and keep it to yourself if you don't want others to know.
Quoted from RTR:This 24yo vaccine hesitant guy (he wanted to wait a couple of years to see if there are problems with the vaccine) doesn't even count as a death. Dying isn't the only risk. Get vaccinated even if you have to eat some crow! Hell, don't even eat the crow - get vaxxed and keep it to yourself if you don't want others to know.
[quoted image]
https://news.yahoo.com/24-year-old-who-needed-double-lung-transplant-wishes-hed-been-vaccinated-for-covid-19-180810400.html
Not sure what there was to disagree with in my post. Even the guy that is now waiting around for 2 new (to him) lungs and has a gofundme to pay his massive medical bills regrets his decision not to get vaccinated against the disease that has killed 607,000 Americans, is still killing about 9,000 people a month, and wrecked the health of many more. His entire family all got the shot and they are all fine.
These stories are easy to find. Get the shot. Encourage others to get it. Don't be that guy.
Quoted from supermatt:It’s how they’re telling the same story. They’re trying to create fear and hysteria by throwing out huge numbers like saying there’s been a 500% increase in cases in a certain area. But, jumping from five cases to thirty is a five hundred percent increase. Not that big of a jump but 500% sounds a lot worse and that’s all people hear. New cases just mean people have tested positive and not necessarily hospitalized or even symptomatic. My local news used to report the number of cases in the state as the number of people sick with the virus when many may not even have been symptomatic and only tested positive. On tonight’s news they referred to it as the pandemic of the unvaccinated probably trying to stir up more fear and even guilt in the unvaccinated. Also, when they are reporting on potential side effects of a vaccine, they bury it in some obscure corner of the news, do thirty seconds on it and downplay it like it’s no big deal. They are using all of these scare tactics as a means to their end.
607,000 Americans dead in 18 months. Many more disabled from Covid complications for an uncertain period of time, some for life. The ongoing Covid Complication number is not reported on widely, but should be and likely will be. 9000 people a month are currently dying from Covid and 99% of them are unvaccinated. An even more contagious variant working it's way through poorly vaccinated areas of the country and world.
Vaccinations have killed/injured a handful of people comparatively and have saved hundreds of thousands of lives just in the short time they have been available. Any serious complications have received almost instant coverage and action - stoppage of JNJ for clotting, warning for JNJ on GB, etc. Why would these stories have equal coverage? Just the sheer body count - Covid deaths vs vaccine deaths would dictate the Covid issues are the greater danger by a huge factor and are due way more coverage.
Quoted from supermatt:I was only giving examples of how the news sensationalizes the pandemic. I was never disputing the number of dead but your statement that vaccines have saved hundreds of thousands of lives is pure speculation on your part. You have no idea how many lives they saved or didn’t save. Do you believe that just because the CDC and mainstream media told you or do you have a crystal ball?
Here is a study by people who study such things. There will be lots of studies coming out to evaluate lives saved, techniques that worked/didn’t work etc all around the vaccine effort.
Quoted from Flyfalcons:Of the small fraction of the 600,000 that were of working age, they make an even tinier fraction of a percent in a population of 330M.
Stop the enabling in the form of highly inflated unemployment compensation, and watch people head back to work.
CDC Data for all of 2020 and 2021 through 7/14/21 The 64 and under group deaths (at 123,583) is just over 20% of the Covid deaths for this period. So about 1 in 5 were under 65 years old. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
This chart does not cover long term or short term disability from Covid. There are more ways to get screwed by Covid than just dying. If you pull just 2021 data, the 64 and under group accounts for over 23% of deaths, which makes sense since fewer older people are unvaccinated and nursing home precautions are probably better in 2021 vs 2020.
Quoted from Flyfalcons:We lost 0.2% of our population to Covid, and 20% of that number was under 65. So 0.04% of our population lost that was working age.
.2% of our population is still 600,000 living people that are no longer living. A number larger than the population of Wyoming and they still get two senators, lol. Dividing a large number by an even larger number to downplay the death of 600k doesn’t make me take this less seriously than is due.
It’s a big ass number and doesn’t count future deaths (9000/month currently) and doesn’t address disability at all. Not to mention the financial cost of caring for the sick now and in in the future. Get vaccinated or don’t and prolong it.
Quoted from Flyfalcons:Just demonstrating why covid deaths among the working aged does not make for a labor shortage. That takes math and percentages, like it or not. But your virtue has been signalled, and that's what's most important.
Pretty sure no one has made an argument that Covid killed or disabled so many workers that it has caused a labor shortage. And your post seemed an attempt to minimize the impact of Covid as some do here. My apologies if I misread your intent.
The causes of the shortage are varied and isn’t likely caused solely by the extra benefits that have been paid. But this idea has been cooked up and spoon fed to people hungry for simple answers for complex problems.
Quoted from Flyfalcons:Then you must have missed post #23592.
"Not all of these deaths were people in old folks homes. A lot of productive people with their lives ahead of them met their fate with Covid. That's a lot of people who not still around to fill the jobs/businesses that can't find help.
And all I hear is that people don't want to go back to work. With 600,000 dead, I wonder if there is anybody to even fill some of these Macjobs (Sorry. Macjobs is an 80s term referring to when Reagan was touting all of the jobs he was creating that were mostly jobs at MacDonald's.)."
....which is what I was responding to, mistakenly without fear of the virtue signalers taking it out of context.
That helps. If you are responding to someone specifically, it helps to quote them in your post. I didn't notice anyone discussing reasons for a labor shortage or you quoting anyone. Your post just looked like another Covid downplay post to me. My bad.
Luckily, I am super woke and thought to virtue signal you. I can see you received the signal, because you have said virtue signal twice now.
Lots of reasons for the labor shortages and it's prob different by region. Tennessee's June unemployment # was 4.9% and the Governor cut the federal benefit in July. Not sure that's gonna move the needle much faster during the summer, but we'll see. Our state benefit table tops out at 275/week, so adding the fed money provided a replacement salary of approx $14/hour for a higher wage earner. Not sure that's keeping many on the sidelines here. I can see some low wage earners in more generous states maybe taking advantage.
Many older workers left the labor force during the pandemic. Lots of over 65's had part time retirement jobs they left and many won't return. Lots of people took early SS/early retirement in part bc of the pandemic.
Gig work got juiced a bit in the pandemic. Hell I still order grocery delivery sometimes. People delivering burgers with flexible schedule and no boss instead of flipping them in a hot restaurant kitchen on someone else's schedule. Restaurants are gonna have to start paying more to attract workers like Chipotle and others that have been in the news.
I heard Cousin Eddie was holding out for a management position.
Seems a little like a tempest in a teapot though. 26 states cutting the federal benefit about 2-3 months ahead of the scheduled end in September. I guess we will see in October.
If a business can't be profitable without underpaid workers, then maybe it's not much of a business in 2021. Chipotle just had an awesome earnings report. They raised pay and benefits for their workers (with modest menu price increases) and had enough employees last quarter to accomplish this:
Revenue increased 38.7% to $1.9 billion
Comparable restaurant sales increased 31.2%
Digital sales grew 10.5% and accounted for 48.5% of sales
Operating margin was 13.0%, an increase from -0.4%
Restaurant level operating margin was 24.5%1, the highest since Q3, 2015, and an increase of 1,230 basis points
Opened 56 new restaurants including one relocation, and closed five
Pandemic is changing some things for the better. If some restaurants or other businesses can't keep up with the new way of doing things, maybe it's ok if they become a thing of the past.
Quoted from woody76:shots don't seem to be working. I know people who have had the J&J and Pfizer vaccines and still got it. I have a crazy insane liberal friend who went and got both vaccines because he said they are free and why not and his ass tested positive the other day. What a crap show.
Variants are infecting some vaccinated people, but the crappier show is definitively for the unvaccinated as a whole.
Quoted from Oaken:This is looking promising:
Covid infections time shifted and plotted over covid deaths. Go vaccines![quoted image]
That is freaking impressive!!
Quoted from RonSS:You're welcome Levi.
//<![CDATA[
window.__mirage2 = {petok:"ff23edcf5b58b3585a87c00c1d94f57bb0ff4b00-1627091478-1800"};
//]]>Is it true though?
Edit:
I think it's dangerous if we don't seek out information from all "sides" and sources.
If it's false, by all means, call it out! I have no issue removing a false story link. Just provide the proof.
I don't pander to one "side", and I would hope you don't either. The truth should be just that, regardless of source.
Labeling "us" and "them" seems archaic to me. "We" are divided enough.
So what if it’s true? What’s your point?
Quoted from RTR:So what if it’s true? What’s your point?
Some people think if they use Soros, Gates, and virus in the same sentence, then they have made some kind of point.
Quoted from DCFAN:LA man who mocked Covid-19 vaccines dies of virus
Dude had 7000 followers on Twitter where he spewed his moronic narcissistic anti-vax “look at me” covid denial nonsense.
So I suppose he would be considered an influencer. Hopefully his completely senseless and preventable death will influence some of them to get vaccinated.
These stories are so easy to find now. They aren’t even ironic anymore, just stupid. Even Alabama’s governor is like smdh.
You get that? The governor of the state that thanks God for Mississippi is ashamed of the unvaccinated crowd’s behavior.
Quoted from CrazyLevi:It’s still a pain in the ass...unless it makes a comeback my symptoms lasted about 2 days, I feel much, much better now.
But my girlfriend is staying in a hotel for a week. I can’t go to the office (LOL yeah I know that’s a killer) and I had tons of other plans over the next week or so that have been disrupted.
And I felt like shit yesterday.
So long story short, while I’m not going to the hospital and I can still pop a boner, it still sucks and I wish I hadn’t caught it. And trust me, you don’t want to get it either if you can avoid it.
The people who refuse to vax continue to do all of
Us a great disservice.
That is awesome news about your boner Levi. Keep us updated.
Quoted from pinballjah:This study suggests you have a reduced chance of catching COVID if you are vaccinated. This seems to be counterintuitive to being around non-vaccinated individuals, as if you are vaccinated, you have less chance to get the virus:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html
That study was completed prior to the effects of Delta. And the study participants are all frontline workers, not a real world mix of vaccinated people.
The current brouhaha is because of the numerous Delta variant breakthrough infections of vaccinated people. Some are using the information to exercise more caution. Others are using it as a reason to criticize the more cautious practices of distancing, limiting indoor exposure to crowds and unvaccinated people, masking, and (of course) vaccinating in the first place.
"Use the additional info as you see fit" seems to be the order of the day, lol.
The leaked CDC info is pretty scary. There is a lot of nuance to the issue of this Delta variant. The CDC messaging of how people need to respond needs to improve, but it’s a difficult task.
Just the mask issue has a lot of variables. When to wear, type of mask, what areas, what is your risk by mask type, people need to wear better masks, what if local authorities won’t enforce, knowing many people won’t comply, etc.
Tough to craft a message when 100% of the population has pandemic fatigue of varying degrees, 30-40% is resistant to any information or intervention, and some political leaders are constantly engaging in performative public displays to undermine any messaging.
“Vaccines work, get vaccinated” seemed to be the overriding message yesterday from the administration and I guess that is probably the best single message you could hope sinks in.
Quoted from Oaken:Quote of the day:
The irony of antivaxers saying they “don’t want to be part of an experiment” without realising they are now the control group.
I may start thanking them. Not everyone is brave enough to volunteer for the control group.
Quoted from cottonm4:Huh? The only SEC I am familiar with the Securities and Exchange commission.
Where is "local"?
I take it you're not a golfer. 
South Eastern Conference! TX and OK just joined this week. 8 of the top 10 hotspots are in the SEC now!
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